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Leaf, odd suggestion but it kind of makes sense

9K views 38 replies 11 participants last post by  larry4pyro 
#1 · (Edited)
I have an RV and was considering upgrading my generator. I looked into the Honda EU3000ISAN generator selling for about $1,600 (full list is over $2.200) that produces 2800 watts continues 3000 peak. And runs for 7.5 hours on 3.4 gallons of gas.

http://www.hondapowerequipment.com/products/models.aspx?page=models&section=P2GG&category=sq

It seems to me this could be used as a range extender that could be mounted on some kind of bracket in the rear bumper

Lets assume you go on a long trip. You start off with the generator charging the battery and even though it probably won't be enough to keep the battery at full charge it will be able to keep the battery from going to zero charge as quickly. Also when you stop for a light or coast down hill it would add to the charge. Also if you stop at a rest stop for a potty break or at a restaurant for 30 to 60 minutes to get food, when you get back the the car it will probably have a lot more of a charge of the charge replenished.

it seems to me that if someone wants an electric car and does not want to pay a $20,000 dealer premium a crude range extender can be added for less than $2,000. And the generator would be stored in the trunk and only be used if it became apparent that the battery would not have the power to get you to your destination.only be used. For example you are 30 miles from home and the range indicator shows only 20 miles remaining. All you do is pull over and take the generator out of the trunk and start it up. The generator could be mounted on some kind of spring assist swing out bracket.
 
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#2 ·
I don't visit this forum very often so I just started reading some of the other threads and it looks like I am not the only one that thought of a small towable or frame mounted genset. So maybe my idea isn't as odd as I first thought. I wonder how well a 2,800 watt genset would work?
 
#3 ·
Range extender facts...

Alan Cocconi, who invented the motor used in the VOLT-hoax, founded a company called http://ACpropulsion.com

which continued research after GM tried to kill the EV1 program.

ACP ran, for many years, the TZERO (successor to the EV1 and parent to the Tesla Roadster) using a "long ranger" trailer; not only does it plug right into the AC150 motor-controller-charge, but the trailer also has automatic backup capability.

Alan mounted a 12 kW to 20 kW generator on the trailer; it takes only 12 kW to keep an EV at 60 mph. The advantage is you can unhook the trailer except when you want to take long trips.

Some of the generators were CNG, some gas; but there's one big problem, the Air Resources Board tries to kill clean cars. In California, to hide air pollution, "stationary source" emissions have one standard set by the AQMD; "mobile source" is set by ARB. So no commercial generators meet "mobile source" smog requirements; and since ARB works for Chevron-GM, they won't let you use a generator on an EV.

As a matter of fact, on our toyota RAV4-EV, we've done just this using add-in battery packs and a inverter which feeds into the regenerative braking shunt, so we can do this at any time with a generator.

Doug Korthof
562-430-2495 if you want to see how this is done
 
#5 ·
As a matter of fact, on our toyota RAV4-EV, we've done just this using add-in battery packs and a inverter which feeds into the regenerative braking shunt, so we can do this at any time with a generator.
Very nice Live, homebrew or an Enginer kit?

2600kva generator probably is too small, unless you are willing to slow down a bit on your long distance trip (maybe 50-55mph?).. a fine Honda would be overkill for this application.. all we need is a DC generator... hopefully not too heavy so that its easy to mount on a rear bumper bracket.

Use LPG and put a catalitic converter on it, should be fairly clean running at a constant power level.
 
#4 ·
How much to run an EV: genets

In reality, the VOLT-hoax is an old idea going back to 1969 and before. It's obvious and easy.

But understand this: a 12 kW generator makes, at most, 12 kWh per hour, enough to go 48 to 60 miles, depending on air resistence.

You can use this same calculation to show what a 2.8 kW generator would do: 2.4 kWh per hour, enough to go about 12 miles, or 12 miles per hour (!).

The best generator is the Honda EU6500isa, which has a smooth wave form output (important for sound systems) but also has automatic ("intelligent") controls to regulate engine speed depending on demand.
 
#6 ·
I was thinking that having a large genset would be counter productive because it would consume more gallons per hour of fuel. Also at 135 pounds a smaller generator would be light enough to be mounted on some kind of platform attached to the frame. Maybe you couldn't go a steady 60 MPH for a long time but you could stop off at rest stops and allow the generator to catch up while you stop to relax or have a meal.

I had a Lexus hybrid RX400H SUV which I traded for a Lexus hybrid GS450H. The GS450H would get anywhere from 27 to 33 MPG depending on driving conditions. By the way the 450H was fast as heck , it probably was just as fast as my 96 Corvette. I just traded it for a Dodge diesel pickup that gets between 11 to 14 MPG but that is carrying a camper in the bed weighing a couple thousand pounds. On a long trip such as the 850 mile drive to NY I would take the camper because I have two dogs and traveling with a camper makes it easier, but if I am going to take a short day trip of 150 to 250 miles a small generator would probably be all I would need. I drive from Anderson SC to Columbia SC and a small generator hooked up to a leaf would get me there and back. The Leaf is rated at a 100 mile range so adding a small generator would allow me to drive at least 125 miles, then while I am at my destination with the car stopped the generator will have a few hours to get the battery replenished. I am retired and love to travel but even though it costs me twice as much to drive to NY in the truck than what it cost driving the Lexus the comfort and connivence make it worth while. I guess I should also mention that I take medication that makes me drowsy. In the past when I felt I that I would be a hazard to myself or others I would pull over to take a 2 or 3 hour nap and pay for a full night in a motel but now I can pull over and take a 2 hour nap at a rest stop any time I feel drowsy.
 
#11 ·
I guess I was not clear in my original post, the $20,000 I was referring to was the number that was given in one of the prior stories regarding the fact that some dealers are charging $20,000 over list price. If a Chevy dealer was going to try to squeeze an extra 20K out of me for the privilege of owning a Volt I would rather look for a Leaf and rig up my own range extender.

Cost wise it would be cheaper to just drive the pick up truck getting 12 MPG than buy another vehicle but I would like to just be able to drive my truck camper a few times a year and let it sit in the drive way when I do short range driving with and electric vehicle. I love the hybrids I owned but I am retired and now that I am getting older I would like to travel and visit relatives and childhood friends I haven't seen in many years and doing it in a camper is the best option. Spending all that extra money to buy another car that runs on batteries won't save money but it will cut down on the amount of fuel I use
 
#8 ·
Silver,
Good thinking. We have kicked this concept around a lot here on the forum. I was the first to post the "Long Ranger" range extender here on the forum. Herm and I are both keen on the concept.

I have a similar problem trying to make the Leaf fit a duty cycle that is just a wee bit too long for it's range (74 miles round trip at HWY speed w/ a 2500' el change.)

I think about 3 kwh of added batts would do it. Enginer will make it happen at a reasonable cost.

Liveoilfree:
We welcome contrary opinions around here and we appreciate your input as a real EV owner as opposed to a wanna be Volt owner. I would suggest you tone down your negative comments about the Volt, GM and Li batteries. If it is a means to to and end, I don't care if it's a Volt, Leaf, Tesla, Rav4, NiMH batts or Lithium batts it's a step in the right direction.
-GSB
 
#19 ·
To set the record straight...

1. I searched the forum. I posted on the trailer concept in May, 2008. The first Bower post I can find on this subject is in early 2010.

2. Contrary opinions aren't particularly welcome around here. If LiveOilFree is a real EV owner, it would be better to queietly read his piece and get the real story than quibble over whether or not he's being polite enough to suit the senstivities of the Volt fanboys.

And GM got its negative opinions the old-fashioned way... they earned them. They earned them with their over-the-top destruction of the EV-1, the cynical way in which they cashed their PNGV checks while delivering nothing, their absurd hybrid introductions, their gas-guzzler lineup and for the many indignities they've heaped on the purchasers of their regular cars over the years (can you say, "DexCool?").
 
#10 ·
Thanks for the LPG comments, was thinking of converting the emergency generator to run on propane or lpg.. and having a large tank buried in the backyard. Supposedly the gas does not foul the carburetor and can be stored indefinitely. Hurricane preparedness in South Florida.

Do you have and numbers on the difference in fuel consumption?
 
#14 ·
I use BBQ size tanks in my camper. I only had the camper for a few months so I can't give you accurate numbers. On a recent trip to NY I was very tired so I pulled off at a rest stop to get some sleep. it was in the afternoon and the temps were in the high 90s with no shade and I was parked on a concrete parking lot which magnified the heat. In about 5 to 6 hours I drained a tank that was almost full when I started and the automatic switchover had me running on reserve. Another time I was parked in a shady area under a tree and the temps were in the low to mid 80s and the A/C didn't have to work as hard to cool the camper so that generator was able to throttle down and after 8 hours of run time the tank had not switched to reserve.

Most people on the RV forum love their Hondas because of their very low fuel consumption. A lot of camper wind up switching from propane generators to the Honda gas generators. Aside from the fact that LPG burns clean the big advantage with LPG in campers is that on fuel runs everything (hot water heater, stove, oven, refrigerator, generator) so you only need one fuel for everything. But the down side to running on LPG is gasoline is much more efficient, You will probably raining 2 LPG tanks @ $20 to $30 per tank to get the run time of of a Honda with a 3.4 gallon gas tank.
 
#12 · (Edited)
Honda's Eu line of generators are great. I have a 2000 and I love it. Since it uses inverters it can run an infinite speed range on the ICE. It is fuel efficient AND quiet. There is nothing worse than being camped next to somebody running a cheap ass generator set made in China.

Even though it is very efficient, Here are some numbers from Honda: run time @1600Watts=4hrs. Tank capacity=1.1 gallons. 4hrs @1600 watts&1.1 gal =5.8kwh/gal. At 3$/gallon for fuel you just payed 50 cents a kwh for the electricity. So not a screaming deal.

Also at 34 kwh/gal that gives a cycle efficiency of 17%. So bad it causes me to question the numbers
 
#13 ·
When I mention the $20,000 mark up I was referring to this

http://gm-volt.com/2010/08/06/majority-of-chevy-dealers-marking-up-volts-gm-bans-out-of-state-sales/

Earlier this week we took an informal survey of GM-Volt readers experiences attempting to purchase Volts from dealers in the early launch markets. There were 1312 respondents when the poll was closed,and 950 or 72% of readers hadn’t inquired at a dealership yet, but 362, or 28%, had.
Of those 362, 60% were told by the dealer they would have to pay a mark-up over MSRP. The largest group among those were those told they would have to pay at least $10,000 over MSRP, representing 37% of that group.


and this

http://gm-volt.com/2010/08/04/poll-how-rampant-is-chevy-volt-dealer-price-gouging/


Edmunds.com recently reported on a Chevy dealer in California with an allocated nine cars who is charging a $20,000 premium per car. The following email from that dealer was published:
 
#15 ·
Just remember that EVs (and EREVs) are not designed to be charged while in motion. Significant modifications to the vehicle's hardware (and probably software) would be needed.
Also, the range data on the dashboard will be incorrect - the computer will get real confused when it sees a certain speed and an unexpected value of battery drain.

P.S. I'd bet that hotel/motel managers wouldn't appreciate a generator running all night - especially in a parking garage.
 
#16 · (Edited)
The new Honda Generators are super quiet, it is quieter than a air conditioner.

IT is rated at 58 DB



Typical
level(Decibels)
Example
Dangerous Time
Exposure
0 Lowest sound audible All exposure is safe
30 Quiet Library, soft whisper All exposure is safe
40 Quiet office, or living room All exposure is safe
50
Light traffic at a distance, refrigerator, gentle
breeze
All exposure is safe
60
Air conditioner at 20 feet, conversation,
sewing machine
All exposure is safe
70
Busy traffic, noisy restaurant. At this level,
noise may begin to affect hearing if you are
constantly exposed.
Risk begins
80
Subway, heavy city traffic, alarm clock at two
feet
Over 8 hours
90
Truck traffic, noisy home appliances, shop
tools, lawnmower. As loudness increases,
the safe time exposure decreases.
Under 8 hours
100
Chainsaw, boiler shop, pneumatic drill.
Exposure may be dangerous at 100 dB.
Safe exposure time is cut in half with every 5
dB increase.
Under 2 hours
120
Rock concert in front of speakers,
sandblasting, thunderclap. At 120 dB,
exposure can injure the ear.
Serious danger
140
Gunshot, jet plane at 50 feet. Noise at 140
dB may cause actual pain in the ear.
Any exposure can
cause damage
Rocket laynching pad. Without ear
protection, noise at this level causes
irreversible damage.
Hearing loss inevitable
 
#25 ·
Boys Boys!

PDNFTT

I mean it's one thing to to have a difference of opinion, but the goof is intentionally just being antagonistic and spewing vitriol based on some misplaced sense of entitlement.
(Quote=Dagwood "But I'm a taxypayer!")
LOL

Very soon his day will come and he will be gone
(and all of his various "spoofed" IPs as well)
WOT
 
#33 · (Edited)
LOL
Nothing but a trollish regurgitation of web-fueled falsities and unsubstantiated, competitor-tainted BS
Do you really really believe the crap you type? Everything you've GOT is "anecdotal" LOL
What company are you really trying to benefit from spreading this horse$hit?

BTW , despite your "crash and burn" comments, GM is certainly selling a lot more % of their current production of 2010 SUVs and trucks than Toyota is.Check out their standing inventory on the Tundra and Sequoia LOL.
But we sure never see you criticizing THEIR full-size strategy! Why is that?
Or their poor performing hybrids (other than your "Precious" of course) Why is that?
Or their attempts at masking their poor safety practises (at the expense of lives!) Why is that?
And what about THEIR downward spiraling build quality? Why is that?
Why is it that you don't want to post or discuss any of that TROLL?

Maybe ask yourself, why is it that people from THIS forum don't find it appropriate to visit other manufacturer/enthusiasts sites like perhaps Priuschat or FordFusion.com and continually chide them over things WE feel THEY are doing wrong, or spreading corporate/product hatred through vitriol and falsities?
WHY? BECAUSE WE ARE NOT TROLLS SUCH AS YOUSELF FOOL!

Thank heavens the likes of your kind or mindset wont ever find a place in the GM boardroom. (or any car company for that matter)
You're way past delusional

STFU TROLL!
NOBODY is taking your $hit seriously!
 
#34 · (Edited)
LOL
Nothing but a trollish regurgitation of web-fueled falsities and unsubstantiated, competitor-tainted BS
Do you really really believe the crap you type? Everything you've GOT is "anecdotal" LOL
What company are you really trying to benefit from spreading this horse$hit?

BTW , despite your "crash and burn" comments, GM is certainly selling a lot more % of their current production of 2010 SUVs and trucks than Toyota is.Check out their standing inventory on the Tundra and Sequoia LOL.
But we sure never see you criticizing THEIR full-size strategy! Why is that?
Or their poor performing hybrids (other than your "Precious" of course) Why is that?
Or their attempts at masking their poor safety practises (at the expense of lives!) Why is that?
And what about THEIR downward spiraling build quality? Why is that?
Why is it that you don't want to post or discuss any of that TROLL?

Maybe ask yourself, why is it that people from THIS forum don't find it appropriate to visit other manufacturer/enthusiasts sites like perhaps Priuschat or FordFusion.com and chide them over things WE feel they are doing wrong, or spreading corporate/product hatred through vitriol and falsities.
WHY? BECAUSE WE ARE NOT TROLLS SUCH AS YOUSELF FOOL!

Thank heavens the likes of your kind or mindset wont ever find a place in the GM boardroom. (or any car company for that matter)
You're way past delusional

STFU TROLL!
NOBODY is taking your $hit seriously!
Tsk, tsk, tsk... So many thinly disguised four-letter words. Are you incapable of expressing yourself without resorting to profanity? Or are your thoughts really only worth expressing in profanity?

Toyota's having a rough time breaking into the truck market (where your truck better be 'Murkin' or it just ain't a real truck), it is true. So what? Is it the sort of problem that threatens to send Toyota into Chapter 11? If they hadn't invested in the Tundra plant, they'd certainly be better off but they're not dependent on truck and SUV sales, like GM is, and this is a sideshow for them and of no real consequence.

Toyota's other hybrids aren't hurting them. Toyota has the luxury of being able to develop near-niche HSD products because HSD is flexible enough to support a variety of vehicle configurations and Toyota can develop these additional hybrid types at low cost. They can simply see what the market will support and maybe make a little money or just break even while they rake in the cash on the Prius.

By way of comparison, GM has funded THREE hybrid systems at this point. The full-size two-mode is limited to the GMT-900 platform (where no one can justify the extra cost), the BAS "hybrid" system is limited to the Epsilon platform (where no one can justify the extra cost) and the compact FWD two-mode system is limited to vaporware on some future variant of the old Vue platform (in fact, it has been reported that the "compact" two-mode won't fit into the Traverse/Acadia engine bay, where it might have a ghost of a chance to sell).

If you believe Toyota has "downward spiraling build quality," I invite you to do further research (CR when it comes out again or TrueDelta.com, if you hate to wait). You will be disappointed.

By the way, as tough a time as Toyota is having breaking in to the fullsize truck market, every comparo I've seen suggests that the Tundra is actually a much better truck. More powerful, more payload and, usually, road tests suggest better fuel economy. Edmunds did a very nice writeup/comparo of the Silverado, Tundra and Titan shortly after the Tundra was introduced and the newest Silvy was on the market. I highly recommend you read it. And the Silvy dyno test revealed something very interesting about how GM approaches the EPA fuel economy test. Read that section v-e-r-y carefully.

By the way, you're certainly welcome to wander on over and criticize any aspect of the Prius or Fusion you like at PriusChat or FordFusion. Of course, if you talk up GM's competitive advantages over those vehicles, prepare to be laughed off the board.
 
#35 ·
2 Mode, Plug in, GM Hybrid

WOT,
I really think GM has a winner on their hands with this one. I am very anxious to see the design.

The Volt is series. Very new and novel. but-------

A 2mode hybrid is even cooler.
So many variants allowed.
I like the HP variant myself.
A small kwh battery but very high C (like grape coolAid) with a decent little HP ICE and a huge electric motor would really be cool.

Also, since the 2 mode is very good for hauling loads GM could expand the current line of truck HEV's----Just put' em into some more aerodynamic bodies..


Oh darn I forgot,
They are already doing this.
 
#36 · (Edited)
Hey, I'll apologize for the language.
But to the other true contributors and real "members" of these forums, certainly not to the likes of you.

I'm merely sick and tired of TROLLS such as yourself permeating forums such as these and disrupting real discussion and meaningful dialog about the Volt.(this is by the way a Volt forum, do you really want to know more about it? or planning on buying one? -Highly doubtful)
WE DON'T CARE ABOUT YOU'RE &*^%$ING PRIUS!!

The same thing is happening all too often out in Lyle's front door blogs. Self-righteous fanbois of various "other" products, that merely want to confront, confuse, and contort. With really no intention of discussing the Volt, other than feeble attempts to put it down and shed it in an ill-conceived negative light.

It's sad really, that goofs like you have nothing better to do. Says a lot about our youth and current workforce unfortunately.

Do you people really have nothing better to do?
Or are you actually being paid to create these disturbances?

Like I said, you don't see members here creating such mayhem in the Prius forums. That's because:
a) we're not interested in the Prius and
b) we're even less interested in playing such childish games

Besides, they typically have moderators that "punt" disruptive trolls and can ban their IPs preventing them from signing on.
I for one certainly can't wait for the day.
WOT
 
#38 ·
Ever see the movie, "Patton?" Remember the part where Patton yells out, "You b@st@rd! I read your book!"? Patton, for all his other interesting faults, was not closed-minded when it came to the conduct of his business - war.

What you call the "trolls" around here are pointing up useful examples of product development and marketing that worked. Pay attention. If he was the CEO of GM, Patton would be paying attention.

When you refer to "fanbois" of other products at "Lyle's front door," I suppose you mean John1701a? I've noticed that he usually comes prepared with facts and he's got many years experience with hybrids and he's been very good about collecting usage and fuel economy data. His input is enlightened and useful You should respect it.
 
#39 ·
I see a couple of problems with this. First, 2800 watts translates to something less than 3 hp. I don't think that is enough to be useful. Consider that the Volt uses a 52 kw generator which translates to 71 hp. Second, compared to the typical automotive gas engine, the engine on generators, like lawn mowers, are very dirty in terms of air pollutants. Yeah, the Volt is more expensive than the Leaf, but I think it's approach is much more elegant.
 
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