GM Volt Forum banner

1 - 20 of 39 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,131 Posts
Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
I have an RV and was considering upgrading my generator. I looked into the Honda EU3000ISAN generator selling for about $1,600 (full list is over $2.200) that produces 2800 watts continues 3000 peak. And runs for 7.5 hours on 3.4 gallons of gas.

http://www.hondapowerequipment.com/products/models.aspx?page=models&section=P2GG&category=sq

It seems to me this could be used as a range extender that could be mounted on some kind of bracket in the rear bumper

Lets assume you go on a long trip. You start off with the generator charging the battery and even though it probably won't be enough to keep the battery at full charge it will be able to keep the battery from going to zero charge as quickly. Also when you stop for a light or coast down hill it would add to the charge. Also if you stop at a rest stop for a potty break or at a restaurant for 30 to 60 minutes to get food, when you get back the the car it will probably have a lot more of a charge of the charge replenished.

it seems to me that if someone wants an electric car and does not want to pay a $20,000 dealer premium a crude range extender can be added for less than $2,000. And the generator would be stored in the trunk and only be used if it became apparent that the battery would not have the power to get you to your destination.only be used. For example you are 30 miles from home and the range indicator shows only 20 miles remaining. All you do is pull over and take the generator out of the trunk and start it up. The generator could be mounted on some kind of spring assist swing out bracket.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,131 Posts
Discussion Starter #2
I don't visit this forum very often so I just started reading some of the other threads and it looks like I am not the only one that thought of a small towable or frame mounted genset. So maybe my idea isn't as odd as I first thought. I wonder how well a 2,800 watt genset would work?
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
38 Posts
Range extender facts...

Alan Cocconi, who invented the motor used in the VOLT-hoax, founded a company called http://ACpropulsion.com

which continued research after GM tried to kill the EV1 program.

ACP ran, for many years, the TZERO (successor to the EV1 and parent to the Tesla Roadster) using a "long ranger" trailer; not only does it plug right into the AC150 motor-controller-charge, but the trailer also has automatic backup capability.

Alan mounted a 12 kW to 20 kW generator on the trailer; it takes only 12 kW to keep an EV at 60 mph. The advantage is you can unhook the trailer except when you want to take long trips.

Some of the generators were CNG, some gas; but there's one big problem, the Air Resources Board tries to kill clean cars. In California, to hide air pollution, "stationary source" emissions have one standard set by the AQMD; "mobile source" is set by ARB. So no commercial generators meet "mobile source" smog requirements; and since ARB works for Chevron-GM, they won't let you use a generator on an EV.

As a matter of fact, on our toyota RAV4-EV, we've done just this using add-in battery packs and a inverter which feeds into the regenerative braking shunt, so we can do this at any time with a generator.

Doug Korthof
562-430-2495 if you want to see how this is done


I have an RV and was considering upgrading my generator. I looked into the Honda EU3000ISAN generator selling for about $1,600 (full list is over $2.200) that produces 2800 watts continues 3000 peak. And runs for 7.5 hours on 3.4 gallons of gas.

http://www.hondapowerequipment.com/products/models.aspx?page=models&section=P2GG&category=sq

It seems to me this could be used as a range extender that could be mounted on some kind of bracket in the rear bumper

Lets assume you go on a long trip. You start off with the generator charging the battery and even though it probably won't be enough to keep the battery at full charge it will be able to keep the battery from going to zero charge as quickly. Also when you stop for a light or coast down hill it would add to the charge. Also if you stop at a rest stop for a potty break or at a restaurant for 30 to 60 minutes to get food, when you get back the the car it will probably have a lot more of a charge of the charge replenished.

it seems to me that if someone wants an electric car and does not want to pay a $20,000 dealer premium a crude range extender can be added for less than $2,000. And the generator would be stored in the trunk and only be used if it became apparent that the battery would not have the power to get you to your destination.only be used. For example you are 30 miles from home and the range indicator shows only 20 miles remaining. All you do is pull over and take the generator out of the trunk and start it up. The generator could be mounted on some kind of spring assist swing out bracket.
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
38 Posts
How much to run an EV: genets

In reality, the VOLT-hoax is an old idea going back to 1969 and before. It's obvious and easy.

But understand this: a 12 kW generator makes, at most, 12 kWh per hour, enough to go 48 to 60 miles, depending on air resistence.

You can use this same calculation to show what a 2.8 kW generator would do: 2.4 kWh per hour, enough to go about 12 miles, or 12 miles per hour (!).

The best generator is the Honda EU6500isa, which has a smooth wave form output (important for sound systems) but also has automatic ("intelligent") controls to regulate engine speed depending on demand.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,791 Posts
As a matter of fact, on our toyota RAV4-EV, we've done just this using add-in battery packs and a inverter which feeds into the regenerative braking shunt, so we can do this at any time with a generator.
Very nice Live, homebrew or an Enginer kit?

2600kva generator probably is too small, unless you are willing to slow down a bit on your long distance trip (maybe 50-55mph?).. a fine Honda would be overkill for this application.. all we need is a DC generator... hopefully not too heavy so that its easy to mount on a rear bumper bracket.

Use LPG and put a catalitic converter on it, should be fairly clean running at a constant power level.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,131 Posts
Discussion Starter #6
I was thinking that having a large genset would be counter productive because it would consume more gallons per hour of fuel. Also at 135 pounds a smaller generator would be light enough to be mounted on some kind of platform attached to the frame. Maybe you couldn't go a steady 60 MPH for a long time but you could stop off at rest stops and allow the generator to catch up while you stop to relax or have a meal.

I had a Lexus hybrid RX400H SUV which I traded for a Lexus hybrid GS450H. The GS450H would get anywhere from 27 to 33 MPG depending on driving conditions. By the way the 450H was fast as heck , it probably was just as fast as my 96 Corvette. I just traded it for a Dodge diesel pickup that gets between 11 to 14 MPG but that is carrying a camper in the bed weighing a couple thousand pounds. On a long trip such as the 850 mile drive to NY I would take the camper because I have two dogs and traveling with a camper makes it easier, but if I am going to take a short day trip of 150 to 250 miles a small generator would probably be all I would need. I drive from Anderson SC to Columbia SC and a small generator hooked up to a leaf would get me there and back. The Leaf is rated at a 100 mile range so adding a small generator would allow me to drive at least 125 miles, then while I am at my destination with the car stopped the generator will have a few hours to get the battery replenished. I am retired and love to travel but even though it costs me twice as much to drive to NY in the truck than what it cost driving the Lexus the comfort and connivence make it worth while. I guess I should also mention that I take medication that makes me drowsy. In the past when I felt I that I would be a hazard to myself or others I would pull over to take a 2 or 3 hour nap and pay for a full night in a motel but now I can pull over and take a 2 hour nap at a rest stop any time I feel drowsy.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,707 Posts
Silver,
Good thinking. We have kicked this concept around a lot here on the forum. I was the first to post the "Long Ranger" range extender here on the forum. Herm and I are both keen on the concept.

I have a similar problem trying to make the Leaf fit a duty cycle that is just a wee bit too long for it's range (74 miles round trip at HWY speed w/ a 2500' el change.)

I think about 3 kwh of added batts would do it. Enginer will make it happen at a reasonable cost.

Liveoilfree:
We welcome contrary opinions around here and we appreciate your input as a real EV owner as opposed to a wanna be Volt owner. I would suggest you tone down your negative comments about the Volt, GM and Li batteries. If it is a means to to and end, I don't care if it's a Volt, Leaf, Tesla, Rav4, NiMH batts or Lithium batts it's a step in the right direction.
-GSB
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,131 Posts
Discussion Starter #9
Use LPG and put a catalitic converter on it, should be fairly clean running at a constant power level.
My camper uses LPG and that is the reason I was thinking of switching to the the Honda gasoline generator. LPG is more expensive to run than gas and harder to replenish. If you go to one of those exchange places that are in every Walmart gas station they are expensive and the tanks you get are not full because it is unsafe to store full tanks. If you refill your own tank it is cheaper to refill than exchange but finding a refill station is difficult (most U-HAULs have refill stations).

I just started camping again after a very long break and this is the first time I had a camper with a generator and air conditioner. If you run the generator to power the A/C the LPG tank does not last very long. On my first long trip when I emptied my first LPG tank and switched to the reserve I went to panic mode because the refrigerator was also powered by LPG and when that 2nd tank ran dry the food would spoil, so I went a long distance out of my way to find a LPG refill station. As a stop gap measure I started carrying 2 extra tanks for a total of 4 tanks but before I take my next trip from SC to Tucson AZ I would like to get The Honda genset I mentioned. And in my search for a new generator I started thinking of what other uses I could find for it and that is where the idea of using it to extend the range of a Leaf (if or when I get one).

3,000 watts is too small to power the car but think of it as a ice maker in your home refrigerator. The ice maker does not produce enough ice to meet your needs during the day but at night while you are sleeping it builds up a reserve then during the day you are using more that the ice maker can produce the reserve you built up over night will get you through the day, The car generator would work out the same way, it would not produce enough to run the car but combined with the battery reserve it would be able to get you through most situations.

I have driven the 850 miles from SC to NY in one day but it takes a lot of of you, so if you limit your driving to 300 miles per day and make a few food and rest stops to allow the generator to build up a charge you should be OK. Also many motels may frown on having you plug in your car so this would allow you to get back to full charge overnight while you sleep at the motel
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,791 Posts
Thanks for the LPG comments, was thinking of converting the emergency generator to run on propane or lpg.. and having a large tank buried in the backyard. Supposedly the gas does not foul the carburetor and can be stored indefinitely. Hurricane preparedness in South Florida.

Do you have and numbers on the difference in fuel consumption?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,131 Posts
Discussion Starter #11
Range extending generator sets only cost $1500 from automakers, so your $20,000 assertion is way off.

It was exactly for this reason that GM chose to make an EREV instead of a BEV - it's significantly cheaper.
I guess I was not clear in my original post, the $20,000 I was referring to was the number that was given in one of the prior stories regarding the fact that some dealers are charging $20,000 over list price. If a Chevy dealer was going to try to squeeze an extra 20K out of me for the privilege of owning a Volt I would rather look for a Leaf and rig up my own range extender.

Cost wise it would be cheaper to just drive the pick up truck getting 12 MPG than buy another vehicle but I would like to just be able to drive my truck camper a few times a year and let it sit in the drive way when I do short range driving with and electric vehicle. I love the hybrids I owned but I am retired and now that I am getting older I would like to travel and visit relatives and childhood friends I haven't seen in many years and doing it in a camper is the best option. Spending all that extra money to buy another car that runs on batteries won't save money but it will cut down on the amount of fuel I use
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,707 Posts
Honda's Eu line of generators are great. I have a 2000 and I love it. Since it uses inverters it can run an infinite speed range on the ICE. It is fuel efficient AND quiet. There is nothing worse than being camped next to somebody running a cheap ass generator set made in China.

Even though it is very efficient, Here are some numbers from Honda: run time @1600Watts=4hrs. Tank capacity=1.1 gallons. 4hrs @1600 watts&1.1 gal =5.8kwh/gal. At 3$/gallon for fuel you just payed 50 cents a kwh for the electricity. So not a screaming deal.

Also at 34 kwh/gal that gives a cycle efficiency of 17%. So bad it causes me to question the numbers
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,131 Posts
Discussion Starter #13
When I mention the $20,000 mark up I was referring to this

http://gm-volt.com/2010/08/06/majority-of-chevy-dealers-marking-up-volts-gm-bans-out-of-state-sales/

Earlier this week we took an informal survey of GM-Volt readers experiences attempting to purchase Volts from dealers in the early launch markets. There were 1312 respondents when the poll was closed,and 950 or 72% of readers hadn’t inquired at a dealership yet, but 362, or 28%, had.
Of those 362, 60% were told by the dealer they would have to pay a mark-up over MSRP. The largest group among those were those told they would have to pay at least $10,000 over MSRP, representing 37% of that group.


and this

http://gm-volt.com/2010/08/04/poll-how-rampant-is-chevy-volt-dealer-price-gouging/


Edmunds.com recently reported on a Chevy dealer in California with an allocated nine cars who is charging a $20,000 premium per car. The following email from that dealer was published:
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,131 Posts
Discussion Starter #14
Thanks for the LPG comments, was thinking of converting the emergency generator to run on propane or lpg.. and having a large tank buried in the backyard. Supposedly the gas does not foul the carburetor and can be stored indefinitely. Hurricane preparedness in South Florida.

Do you have and numbers on the difference in fuel consumption?
I use BBQ size tanks in my camper. I only had the camper for a few months so I can't give you accurate numbers. On a recent trip to NY I was very tired so I pulled off at a rest stop to get some sleep. it was in the afternoon and the temps were in the high 90s with no shade and I was parked on a concrete parking lot which magnified the heat. In about 5 to 6 hours I drained a tank that was almost full when I started and the automatic switchover had me running on reserve. Another time I was parked in a shady area under a tree and the temps were in the low to mid 80s and the A/C didn't have to work as hard to cool the camper so that generator was able to throttle down and after 8 hours of run time the tank had not switched to reserve.

Most people on the RV forum love their Hondas because of their very low fuel consumption. A lot of camper wind up switching from propane generators to the Honda gas generators. Aside from the fact that LPG burns clean the big advantage with LPG in campers is that on fuel runs everything (hot water heater, stove, oven, refrigerator, generator) so you only need one fuel for everything. But the down side to running on LPG is gasoline is much more efficient, You will probably raining 2 LPG tanks @ $20 to $30 per tank to get the run time of of a Honda with a 3.4 gallon gas tank.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
317 Posts
Just remember that EVs (and EREVs) are not designed to be charged while in motion. Significant modifications to the vehicle's hardware (and probably software) would be needed.
Also, the range data on the dashboard will be incorrect - the computer will get real confused when it sees a certain speed and an unexpected value of battery drain.

P.S. I'd bet that hotel/motel managers wouldn't appreciate a generator running all night - especially in a parking garage.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,131 Posts
Discussion Starter #16 (Edited)
Just remember that EVs (and EREVs) are not designed to be charged while in motion. Significant modifications to the vehicle's hardware (and probably software) would be needed.
Also, the range data on the dashboard will be incorrect - the computer will get real confused when it sees a certain speed and an unexpected value of battery drain.

P.S. I'd bet that hotel/motel managers wouldn't appreciate a generator running all night - especially in a parking garage.
The new Honda Generators are super quiet, it is quieter than a air conditioner.

IT is rated at 58 DB



Typical
level(Decibels)
Example
Dangerous Time
Exposure
0 Lowest sound audible All exposure is safe
30 Quiet Library, soft whisper All exposure is safe
40 Quiet office, or living room All exposure is safe
50
Light traffic at a distance, refrigerator, gentle
breeze
All exposure is safe
60
Air conditioner at 20 feet, conversation,
sewing machine
All exposure is safe
70
Busy traffic, noisy restaurant. At this level,
noise may begin to affect hearing if you are
constantly exposed.
Risk begins
80
Subway, heavy city traffic, alarm clock at two
feet
Over 8 hours
90
Truck traffic, noisy home appliances, shop
tools, lawnmower. As loudness increases,
the safe time exposure decreases.
Under 8 hours
100
Chainsaw, boiler shop, pneumatic drill.
Exposure may be dangerous at 100 dB.
Safe exposure time is cut in half with every 5
dB increase.
Under 2 hours
120
Rock concert in front of speakers,
sandblasting, thunderclap. At 120 dB,
exposure can injure the ear.
Serious danger
140
Gunshot, jet plane at 50 feet. Noise at 140
dB may cause actual pain in the ear.
Any exposure can
cause damage
Rocket laynching pad. Without ear
protection, noise at this level causes
irreversible damage.
Hearing loss inevitable
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
968 Posts
Range extending generator sets only cost $1500 from automakers, so your $20,000 assertion is way off.

It was exactly for this reason that GM chose to make an EREV instead of a BEV - it's significantly cheaper.
So, $41K is "significantly cheaper" than $32K when using "Hendler Math?"

Or are you suggesting that the Volt is highly profitable? In which case, you should explain why GM is not rushing to build them in mass quantities.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,085 Posts
So, $41K is "significantly cheaper" than $32K when using "Hendler Math?"

Or are you suggesting that the Volt is highly profitable? In which case, you should explain why GM is not rushing to build them in mass quantities.
Lemme know when your $32K EV gets unlimited range and cold / hot weather functionality - then we can compare costs.
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
968 Posts
Silver,
Good thinking. We have kicked this concept around a lot here on the forum. I was the first to post the "Long Ranger" range extender here on the forum. Herm and I are both keen on the concept.

I have a similar problem trying to make the Leaf fit a duty cycle that is just a wee bit too long for it's range (74 miles round trip at HWY speed w/ a 2500' el change.)

I think about 3 kwh of added batts would do it. Enginer will make it happen at a reasonable cost.

Liveoilfree:
We welcome contrary opinions around here and we appreciate your input as a real EV owner as opposed to a wanna be Volt owner. I would suggest you tone down your negative comments about the Volt, GM and Li batteries. If it is a means to to and end, I don't care if it's a Volt, Leaf, Tesla, Rav4, NiMH batts or Lithium batts it's a step in the right direction.
-GSB
To set the record straight...

1. I searched the forum. I posted on the trailer concept in May, 2008. The first Bower post I can find on this subject is in early 2010.

2. Contrary opinions aren't particularly welcome around here. If LiveOilFree is a real EV owner, it would be better to queietly read his piece and get the real story than quibble over whether or not he's being polite enough to suit the senstivities of the Volt fanboys.

And GM got its negative opinions the old-fashioned way... they earned them. They earned them with their over-the-top destruction of the EV-1, the cynical way in which they cashed their PNGV checks while delivering nothing, their absurd hybrid introductions, their gas-guzzler lineup and for the many indignities they've heaped on the purchasers of their regular cars over the years (can you say, "DexCool?").
 
1 - 20 of 39 Posts
Top