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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Below in bold/underlined would indicate not liquid cooled. Doh!


https://electrek.co/2018/12/04/60kw...at-ces-w-100kw-charging-200-hp-well-be-there/
100kW CHAdeMO -- Along with the 60kWh battery pack, which sadly is still rumored to be passively air cooled, Nissan is expected to up its CHAdeMO charging speeds to 100kW. That’s an impressive charging speed and we hope we’ll get some corresponding announcements from charging providers that will announce 100kW additions/upgrades to their network. The only current US vehicle with 100kW CHAdeMO is the Kia Soul EV which just got replaced by a double sized battery version that will now charge via CCS combo.

Battery Supplier -- Nissan recently abandoned its own battery production arm and decided to outsource its battery production, as the new LEAF will reportedly source its pack from LG. That’s where its competition Chevy Bolt and Hyundai are sourcing their 60-ish kWh batteries from too so don’t expect too much differentiation there.
https://www.electrive.com/2018/12/04/exclusive-long-range-leaf-to-debut-without-liquid-cooling/
When this information was conveyed at an event for Nissan dealers yesterday, a whisper could be heard across the rows as it became clear that the 60 kWh battery will have to go along without liquid cooling. The lack of such active heat dissipation had already led to the issue known as Rapidgate on social media. Back then, the current battery generation (40 kWh) exhibited problems with repeated DC charging, especially in hot climates. The necessary reduction in charging capacity in turn led to significantly longer charging times – a nuisance on long journeys, as the editors of electrive.net had to find more than once.
 

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Putting in a fan will help in temperate climes. At least the Mitsubishi Outlander uses A/C air to cool the batteries making ambient air temp less relevant. The Volt/Bolt, Kona use liquid cooling but the cooling plates are interspersed amongst the chemical plates. Are they touching so you are getting chemical to metal to metal to coolant or is it chemical to metal to air to metal to coolant transfers. It would be nice to see some scientific info comparing the liquid cooling versus the A/C cooling.
 

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the same issue exist with Zero's electric motorcycles. MCN had a long term test and spirited riding in hot weather would regularly push the engine/pack past 200F and cause it to reduce power. Charging wasn't possible when it got hot either. I want to say its cut off for charging was in the 122F range but I need to read up on it again. the bike being used had a 14.4kWh battery
 

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This kind of puts a damper on the battery cells having a 1.6 C charging rate (~100 kW). Such a waste.
Bjorn Nyland said that the active fan cooling on the 40kWh e-NV200, it was able to keep the temperature at 40*C with ambient 22*C, where the 40kWh Leaf would be up to 50*C. Still not great, it still Rapidgates, but not as much as the Leaf.

If Nissan thinks fan cooling is sufficient, I'd hope that they're at least working on improving the fan cooling.
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Bjorn Nyland said that the active fan cooling on the 40kWh e-NV200, it was able to keep the temperature at 40*C with ambient 22*C, where the 40kWh Leaf would be up to 50*C. Still not great, it still Rapidgates, but not as much as the Leaf.

If Nissan thinks fan cooling is sufficient, I'd hope that they're at least working on improving the fan cooling.
The 60 kWh LEAF is supposed to be air condition cooled similar to the e-NV200 ... which supposedly handles multiple DC charging fine.

Title: The 2019 Nissan Leaf e-Plus Will Get Air-Conditioned Battery Cooling, Not Liquid Cooling
https://youtu.be/EnNGmessn0I?t=204
 

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The last time Nissan said air cooling was just dandy, a bunch of suckers ended up with rapidly degraded batteries an Nissan very reluctantly offered some of them a new battery, kicking and heel dragging the whole way.

No thanks. Spend a bit more on a car with a liquid cooling system. I'm not willing to pay to be a Nissan guinea pig.
 

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The 60 kWh LEAF is supposed to be air condition cooled similar to the e-NV200 ... which supposedly handles multiple DC charging fine.

Title: The 2019 Nissan Leaf e-Plus Will Get Air-Conditioned Battery Cooling, Not Liquid Cooling
https://youtu.be/EnNGmessn0I?t=204
The e-NV200 doesn't really handle DC _fine_, it just doesn't Rapidgate as much as the Leaf.
Bjorn Nyland noted that to manage the temperature you'd have to keep your driving speeds down so the battery temperature wouldn't rise.
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
I would never buy an EV cooled by A/C'd air or just air vs liquid but LGChem is pretty reputable and must have approved the 60 kWh LEAF cooling ... they wouldn't mess with their (LGChem) reputation.

https://insideevs.com/heres-nissan-employs-active-air-cooling-e-nv200-battery-pack/
Nissan issued this statement on the active air-cooling/heating system in the e-NV200 battery pack:
“As in LEAF, the battery pack comprises 48 modules with a nominal capacity of 24 kWh, but it incorporates a bespoke cooling pack that operates automatically during quick charging.”

“Due to more compact packaging and because e-NV200’s duty cycle is likely to be quite different to LEAF – it is anticipated that the vehicle will be operated intensively during the working day and there will be greater use of Quick Chargers to minimise down time – cooled air from the vehicle’s heating and ventilation system is channelled over the battery cells to ensure optimum charging conditions at all times.”

“Conversely, in cold weather, the vehicle’s HVAC system wafts warm air over the battery, again to ensure it reaches its optimum operating temperature as quickly as possible.”
 

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I know Nissan said at one point that they were trying to develop cells that were more tolerant to heat. If anything came of that, maybe this a/c cooling is enough?
Yes, it was their "lizard" battery. As far as I know, it didn't help that much. I've still seen 2018 LEAFs (40 kWh) charging at 12 kW on a 50 kW DCFC between 20% and 30% battery. It is agonizingly slow.

Now, if this 60 kW LEAF can actually air condition the battery, it might be worth my time testing it on a 500+ mile run. Still, even in the Bolt EV, my battery temperature in the middle of the year when I arrive at my first stop on my 500 mile trips is typically over 90 F.
 

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Air has much less density (mass) than liquid, so a lot of air has to moved to be achieved the same level of cooling. If you are space constrained as I believe the Leaf is when stuffing a 60 KWH battery in the same space as their first gen batteries without thermal management, then I would think air cooling would become very challenging.

Assume A/C sourced cooling is suffient, how is the battery heated?
 

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Assume A/C sourced cooling is suffient, how is the battery heated?
Presumably from a heated coil just like cabin heat. I assume it would be in a closed loop like recirculated cabin heating/cooling.
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
Assume A/C sourced cooling is suffient, how is the battery heated?
From the quote above (e-NV200)

Nissan issued this statement... "Conversely, in cold weather, the vehicle’s HVAC system wafts warm air over the battery, again to ensure it reaches its optimum operating temperature as quickly as possible."
 

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"wafts". That's like blowing someone a kiss compared to a real real kiss.
 

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One of the numerous reasons why I will likely never buy another Nissan EV...
 

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well the state of EV motorcycles is air cooled with the BMW scooter using a fan to help cool it down but it doesn't do anything to heat it. the most well know manufacturer of EV bikes; Zero Motorcycles; has bikes that over heat and even refuse to charge at times.

Going to be interesting to see what Harley announces in January for their bike. If its air cooled it will strictly be a toy.

So not everyone is moving to liquid cooled systems and I doubt we have seen the end of the air cooled solutions even in cars.

BYD buses, at least in 2016 were using air cooled packs https://www.trafikstyrelsen.dk/~/me...ery degradation in electric buses - final.pdf (see page 35)

with regards to Nissan, I sold my 2005 Murano over concerns with the CVT and a few years later Nissan was forced to address warranty concerns many had including paying those who had to pay to fix them
 
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