GM Volt Forum banner

1 - 20 of 21 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,431 Posts
The only "low" point was "Still too slow to charge for some buyers". The grand majority of car owners have a garage with a AC outlet available, so overnight charging, even at 120 VAC and 12 A is enough. Most will buy a Level 2 EVSE and get opportunity charges while eating lunch or dinner. Only the very few (less than 5%) of car owners have no AC outlet nearby, but can use other AC outlets or use the many SAE J1172 CCS DC fast chargers, and those are the few that may not buy a Bolt EV, so they can still buy a Volt and continue to visit gas stations for refueling.

So I see 95% of the U.S. car owners as potential customers for the Chevy Bolt EV.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,405 Posts
It's another report that points towards the 238 mile Combined Range range filed with the EPA prior to retail release is perhaps pessimistic for the actual retail car.

This has two major effects:

True charging speed. If the efficiency is higher than advertised, you get more real miles per minute of DCFC.

Required spacing on DCFC locations. If two stations are 238 miles apart, you can be fairly confident you can make it at modest highway speeds with some buffer to spare. Some EVs give up significant effect range because advertised range is sort of a 'best case' scenario, so you must leave a large buffer.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,468 Posts
The only "low" point was "Still too slow to charge for some buyers". The grand majority of car owners have a garage with a AC outlet available, so overnight charging, even at 120 VAC and 12 A is enough. Most will buy a Level 2 EVSE and get opportunity charges while eating lunch or dinner. Only the very few (less than 5%) of car owners have no AC outlet nearby, but can use other AC outlets or use the many SAE J1172 CCS DC fast chargers, and those are the few that may not buy a Bolt EV, so they can still buy a Volt and continue to visit gas stations for refueling.

So I see 95% of the U.S. car owners as potential customers for the Chevy Bolt EV.
Even those who have wired garages doesn't guarantee they charge as many folks keep either classic cars in there while others use theirs for a shop or a junk room...The issue with complexs is that while you might be allowed to charge, owners/HOA require your charging outlet/charger must be connected to your electric meter...May end up costing thousands to make that happen, too much as a renter...Then we have to remember that a lot of those renters don't qualify for the full tax rebate...Lastly not everyone can charge at 12amp and may never be able to gain enough range using L1 8amp to their daily commute...

You do bring up an interesting question, "If we gave a free Bolt EV, would you be able to regularly charge it overnight starting today?"

It's another report that points towards the 238 mile Combined Range range filed with the EPA prior to retail release is perhaps pessimistic for the actual retail car.

This has two major effects:

True charging speed. If the efficiency is higher than advertised, you get more real miles per minute of DCFC.

Required spacing on DCFC locations. If two stations are 238 miles apart, you can be fairly confident you can make it at modest highway speeds with some buffer to spare. Some EVs give up significant effect range because advertised range is sort of a 'best case' scenario, so you must leave a large buffer.
http://insideevs.com/instrumented-test-of-chevrolet-bolt-190-miles-of-range-at-steady-75-mph/ states that the Bolt got 190 miles of range going 75MPH with the AC set to 72f on a warmish kind of day...No doubt all vehicles including ICE vehicles will get less range (whether EV or ICE) than the EPA in this driving scenario since the EPA uses a variety of mixed driving cycles...

But the core of the issue is the charging station itself...People want to do something else while charging for an hour (if the DCFC doesn't have time limits, many report 30mins) if there's a restaurant that can make everyone happy great, but isn't like 70% of restaurants fail anyways? Also if you're driving the family to grandma's for thanksgiving, last thing on your mind is stopping for food...lol
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,405 Posts
...

http://insideevs.com/instrumented-test-of-chevrolet-bolt-190-miles-of-range-at-steady-75-mph/ states that the Bolt got 190 miles of range going 75MPH with the AC set to 72f on a warmish kind of day...No doubt all vehicles including ICE vehicles will get less range (whether EV or ICE) than the EPA in this driving scenario since the EPA uses a variety of mixed driving cycles...

...
The 190 mile range number is used quite bit by Tesla enthusiasts as the true range of the Bolt. While in fact, driving 75 for two and a half hours sustained in many regions is either very difficult, or a good way to collect tickets. Nor is it actually a legal requirement to drive 75 mph when you need to stretch range between charge locations. You can drive 75 or faster when you don't need to stretch your range.

But in reality, a Corolla vaporizes any BEV sold at any price for high speed, long distance travel. There are still drawbacks of EVs.

But let's stick with the "crappy 190 mile Bolt with the aero of a drogue chute" theory propagated by the internet experts.

The super-slick Model S with 51 psi rated tires, doesn't match the Bolt's mi/kWh at 75 mph. If you want Bolt range in a Model S, you need 68kWh of usable or better. Which is another data point that makes me think the Bolt is underrated.

Either Tesla is exaggerating their EPA number, or Chevrolet is derating theirs. At 75 mph, the massive aero difference should have the Model S using less power per mile, not more. Non-aero resistance is only 1/3 of the load.
 

·
Administrator
Joined
·
19,984 Posts
They liked it. It drove well. It has good acceleration. It has lots of room. It's quiet. It's comfortable. It lives up to the promises. It's a great car, more people should buy it.

Seems like an "average driver" review, and there is nothing wrong with that.
 

·
Administrator
Joined
·
19,984 Posts
Even those who have wired garages doesn't guarantee they charge as many folks keep either classic cars in there while others use theirs for a shop or a junk room...The issue with complexs is that while you might be allowed to charge, owners/HOA require your charging outlet/charger must be connected to your electric meter...May end up costing thousands to make that happen, too much as a renter...Then we have to remember that a lot of those renters don't qualify for the full tax rebate...Lastly not everyone can charge at 12amp and may never be able to gain enough range using L1 8amp to their daily commute...
Oh my gosh. What about those who have converted their garage into an in-law quarters? What about those who had their garage destroyed by tornado, hurricane or mudslide? What about those who are afraid of electricity?

I wish I had known about these Debby Downer doom and gloom scenarios before I cleaned out my garage, installed a 240V EVSE, and sold my "classic" car (a 21 year old Volvo). :)

I doubt most wanna-be EV owners live in a HOA-controlled complex with a classic car in one bay, junk in the other, and no 240V outlet, or are a renter. Rather, I think inertia and fear of the unknown coupled with low gas prices and a premium for EV's are the main factors affecting EV adoption rates.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6,661 Posts
Long distance travel and convenient FAST charging prevent me from buying a BEV (any BEV and I love Tesla and what they have done so far). My wife and I have relatively normal long distance travel scenario. We live in southern Illinois near St Louis and our daughter/SIL and two grandchildren live in southern MD 990 miles door to door. I can get their via TWO major routes, I 70 east or I 64 east. We have driven both routes several time and have decided 70 is our perferred route. We can't make it non-stop so we opted to RON at the half way point - Columbus or Zanesville OH. The last trip was with our 4 cyl 2016 Equinox we drove 458 miles from our home to hotel on ONE tank of gas. We did make 3 pit stops, two at rest stops and one for lunch. That leg took us just shy of 10 hours. It wasn't stressful. I play with evtripplanner.com on a MS60/70 and still come away with range anixety with far too many variables like rolling into my SIL house (which is 125 miles from the last Supercharger with less than 40 miles of range left and only a 120V outlet available.

While I want to make the numbers work, I'm just not that adventuresome or trusting (that the plugs will be operational or available). Maybe if I was retired and had more time to take a more leisurely trip I could make the numbers work but alas I need to face the reality as it is, not what I want it to be.

So for me a BEV is purely an urban vehicle.

A note, today I needed to take my wife to STL IAP (58 miles R/T) and our 2017 made it with range to share, than after lunch and a full charge on my Clipper Creek LCS-25 EVSE I needed to run some errands and rolled up another 52 miles - ALL ON THE BATTERY, 110 miles over a 7 hour period. Not bad a Gen II Volt and level II EVSE is about as perfect as you can get with ZERO RANGE ANIXETY.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,352 Posts
Long distance travel and convenient FAST charging prevent me from buying a BEV (any BEV and I love Tesla and what they have done so far). My wife and I have relatively normal long distance travel scenario. We live in southern Illinois near St Louis and our daughter/SIL and two grandchildren live in southern MD 990 miles door to door. I can get their via TWO major routes, I 70 east or I 64 east. We have driven both routes several time and have decided 70 is our perferred route. We can't make it non-stop so we opted to RON at the half way point - Columbus or Zanesville OH. The last trip was with our 4 cyl 2016 Equinox we drove 458 miles from our home to hotel on ONE tank of gas. We did make 3 pit stops, two at rest stops and one for lunch. That leg took us just shy of 10 hours. It wasn't stressful. I play with evtripplanner.com on a MS60/70 and still come away with range anixety with far too many variables like rolling into my SIL house (which is 125 miles from the last Supercharger with less than 40 miles of range left and only a 120V outlet available.

While I want to make the numbers work, I'm just not that adventuresome or trusting (that the plugs will be operational or available). Maybe if I was retired and had more time to take a more leisurely trip I could make the numbers work but alas I need to face the reality as it is, not what I want it to be.

So for me a BEV is purely an urban vehicle.

A note, today I needed to take my wife to STL IAP (58 miles R/T) and our 2017 made it with range to share, than after lunch and a full charge on my Clipper Creek LCS-25 EVSE I needed to run some errands and rolled up another 52 miles - ALL ON THE BATTERY, 110 miles over a 7 hour period. Not bad a Gen II Volt and level II EVSE is about as perfect as you can get with ZERO RANGE ANIXETY.
Driving from St. Louis to Long Island last week, I stayed for the first time at Baker's Motel (it doesn't belong to me, lol) in Norwich, Ohio. The place was clean, quiet and not expensive. Norwich is about 10 miles east of Zanesville and the motel is about half a mile from exit 164 off I-70. I'll be making that motel my overnight stay when driving to and from St. Louis in the future. I had a room at the rear of the motel. Check their website.

EDIT: While I was checking in, the owner's son drove up in a black Gen 1. I commented on that and was told that another child of his also had a Volt. My kind of place!
 

·
Senior Member
Joined
·
1,101 Posts
Long distance travel and convenient FAST charging prevent me from buying a BEV (any BEV and I love Tesla and what they have done so far). My wife and I have relatively normal long distance travel scenario. We live in southern Illinois near St Louis and our daughter/SIL and two grandchildren live in southern MD 990 miles door to door. I can get their via TWO major routes, I 70 east or I 64 east. We have driven both routes several time and have decided 70 is our perferred route. We can't make it non-stop so we opted to RON at the half way point - Columbus or Zanesville OH. The last trip was with our 4 cyl 2016 Equinox we drove 458 miles from our home to hotel on ONE tank of gas. We did make 3 pit stops, two at rest stops and one for lunch. That leg took us just shy of 10 hours. It wasn't stressful. I play with evtripplanner.com on a MS60/70 and still come away with range anixety with far too many variables like rolling into my SIL house (which is 125 miles from the last Supercharger with less than 40 miles of range left and only a 120V outlet available.

While I want to make the numbers work, I'm just not that adventuresome or trusting (that the plugs will be operational or available). Maybe if I was retired and had more time to take a more leisurely trip I could make the numbers work but alas I need to face the reality as it is, not what I want it to be.

So for me a BEV is purely an urban vehicle.

A note, today I needed to take my wife to STL IAP (58 miles R/T) and our 2017 made it with range to share, than after lunch and a full charge on my Clipper Creek LCS-25 EVSE I needed to run some errands and rolled up another 52 miles - ALL ON THE BATTERY, 110 miles over a 7 hour period. Not bad a Gen II Volt and level II EVSE is about as perfect as you can get with ZERO RANGE ANIXETY.

How many times do you make that trip in a year? And how long do you stay? That is what would make the difference for most people.

At 1K miles, we fly and rent a car, rather than spend 4 days in the car - 2 days there and 2 days back. But if you are staying for weeks, I can understand it.

If you only make that trip once or twice per year, just prefer to drive, and are really still concerned about range anxiety, you could rent a car for those trips.

It seems to me that the Bolt would work for you for 95% of the time and would still be worth considering. I look at it this way. I need a truck once or twice per year. So why drive a truck 363 days per year when I don't really need it? That is how I feel about the Bolt. It will work for us almost all the time. For the few times it won't I can rent a truck at Home Depot for a few hours or a car at any rental agency for a few days.

JMHO

Jim - C-5277
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,314 Posts
The only "low" point was "Still too slow to charge for some buyers". The grand majority of car owners have a garage with a AC outlet available, so overnight charging, even at 120 VAC and 12 A is enough. Most will buy a Level 2 EVSE and get opportunity charges while eating lunch or dinner. Only the very few (less than 5%) of car owners have no AC outlet nearby, but can use other AC outlets or use the many SAE J1172 CCS DC fast chargers, and those are the few that may not buy a Bolt EV, so they can still buy a Volt and continue to visit gas stations for refueling.

So I see 95% of the U.S. car owners as potential customers for the Chevy Bolt EV.
Where do you get your numbers? People who've actually studied this vastly disagree with you:

...only an estimated 56% of vehicles have a dedicated off-street parking space – and only 47% at an owned residence. Approximately 22% vehicles currently have access to a dedicated home parking space within reach of an outlet suffi- cient to recharge a small plug-in vehicle battery pack overnight.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,405 Posts
Where do you get your numbers? People who've actually studied this vastly disagree with you:

...only an estimated 56% of vehicles have a dedicated off-street parking space – and only 47% at an owned residence. Approximately 22% vehicles currently have access to a dedicated home parking space within reach of an outlet suffi- cient to recharge a small plug-in vehicle battery pack overnight.
If 22% of cars were EV, this discussion would be moot. Market forces and political pressure would have charging points nearly everywhere. With 1% of cars being plug-in, 22% doesn't sound like a problem.

It's like high speed internet. Would somebody in 2000 move into a dwelling with just dial-up internet? Absolutely.
Would somebody in 2017? Unlikely. Who even has dial-up anymore?

If 22% of potential buyers or renters were looking for EV support, it would reshape the housing market.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,468 Posts
The 190 mile range number is used quite bit by Tesla enthusiasts as the true range of the Bolt. While in fact, driving 75 for two and a half hours sustained in many regions is either very difficult, or a good way to collect tickets. Nor is it actually a legal requirement to drive 75 mph when you need to stretch range between charge locations. You can drive 75 or faster when you don't need to stretch your range.

But in reality, a Corolla vaporizes any BEV sold at any price for high speed, long distance travel. There are still drawbacks of EVs.

But let's stick with the "crappy 190 mile Bolt with the aero of a drogue chute" theory propagated by the internet experts.

The super-slick Model S with 51 psi rated tires, doesn't match the Bolt's mi/kWh at 75 mph. If you want Bolt range in a Model S, you need 68kWh of usable or better. Which is another data point that makes me think the Bolt is underrated.

Either Tesla is exaggerating their EPA number, or Chevrolet is derating theirs. At 75 mph, the massive aero difference should have the Model S using less power per mile, not more. Non-aero resistance is only 1/3 of the load.
I actually think 190 miles of range is impressive, if there isn't traffic, that's the speed I usually go and I would use the A/C...EPA number is a collection of test cycles which covers a variety of tests...Most automaker cater their efficiency efforts to test cycles before anything else...I personally would love to see this 75MPH test with the A/C on for every single vehicle but it's not going to happen...
Oh my gosh. What about those who have converted their garage into an in-law quarters? What about those who had their garage destroyed by tornado, hurricane or mudslide? What about those who are afraid of electricity?

I wish I had known about these Debby Downer doom and gloom scenarios before I cleaned out my garage, installed a 240V EVSE, and sold my "classic" car (a 21 year old Volvo). :)

I doubt most wanna-be EV owners live in a HOA-controlled complex with a classic car in one bay, junk in the other, and no 240V outlet, or are a renter. Rather, I think inertia and fear of the unknown coupled with low gas prices and a premium for EV's are the main factors affecting EV adoption rates.
I agree with you 100%, however I was debating Raymondjram's claim that 95% are able and willing to charge their EV at home...
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,489 Posts
If 22% of cars were EV, this discussion would be moot. Market forces and political pressure would have charging points nearly everywhere. With 1% of cars being plug-in, 22% doesn't sound like a problem.
You're making a mighty big assumption that every last one of the 1% of people who want EV's happen to also be in the 22% that can charge them at home. And as the share of EVs goes up it's going to be a bigger and bigger issue.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,782 Posts
I thought it was somewhere near 40% of US residents had a garage? Personally, my daughter's junk keeps me charging in the driveway most of the time.

I drove to my Mom's and back over the holiday. 400mi each way. Zero range anxiety as I carry the supercharger under the hood (1.4l 53kW generator). I do this trip 4x/5x per year. Flying would be a problem unless it was a Cessna.

This trip is barely possible with a Tesla. If you go 60mi out of your way to SCs. Pretty much all of my preferred route is NOT interstate.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
902 Posts
Only the very few (less than 5%) of car owners have no AC outlet nearby, but can use other AC outlets. . . .

So I see 95% of the U.S. car owners as potential customers for the Chevy Bolt EV.
1. About half of residences in Colorado are condominiums or apartment buildings where electric vehicles are not permitted to charge. If parking places are unassigned, there is no right to charging electric vehicles.

2. Wilderness trailheads, Forest Service campgrounds, BLM lands, and hundreds of miles of roads throughout the Rocky Mountains do not have electric outlets.

Therefore, electric vehicles are worthless for most "U.S. car owners." The Volt generators or "range extenders" are the only way that battery-assisted motors are going to be practical for most families. Furthermore, most mountain people buy pick-up trucks and all-wheel-drive vehicles and still believe that a vehicle must roar and spew carcinogens in order to have the power needed in rural driving.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,782 Posts
Therefore, electric vehicles are worthless for most "U.S. car owners."
Well yeah. If you take an extreme example of 'People who live in Colorado'. In the other extreme of 'People who live in Puerto Rico' then, probably 95% are near an accessible outlet. For 'U.S. car owners', it's probably somewhere in the middle.
 

·
Administrator
Joined
·
19,984 Posts
1. About half of residences in Colorado are condominiums or apartment buildings where electric vehicles are not permitted to charge. If parking places are unassigned, there is no right to charging electric vehicles.

2. Wilderness trailheads, Forest Service campgrounds, BLM lands, and hundreds of miles of roads throughout the Rocky Mountains do not have electric outlets.

Therefore, electric vehicles are worthless for most "U.S. car owners." The Volt generators or "range extenders" are the only way that battery-assisted motors are going to be practical for most families. Furthermore, most mountain people buy pick-up trucks and all-wheel-drive vehicles and still believe that a vehicle must roar and spew carcinogens in order to have the power needed in rural driving.
That's quite a conclusion to draw based on Colorado condo owners and wilderness campgrounds. Let me reverse that logic. In my area, almost 100% own a home with a garage. Therefore, EV's are suitable for almost 100% of people in the US. :)

For me, a Volt is a go anywhere EV, and if I had only one car, I would choose the Volt for that reason. If I have two cars (I do), then a Volt and a Bolt are are great combo platter.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,405 Posts
I thought it was somewhere near 40% of US residents had a garage? Personally, my daughter's junk keeps me charging in the driveway most of the time.

I drove to my Mom's and back over the holiday. 400mi each way. Zero range anxiety as I carry the supercharger under the hood (1.4l 53kW generator). I do this trip 4x/5x per year. Flying would be a problem unless it was a Cessna.

This trip is barely possible with a Tesla. If you go 60mi out of your way to SCs. Pretty much all of my preferred route is NOT interstate.
Shhhh... that's a dirty little secret about Superchargers. They have good interstate coverage. Not so good state road coverage.

This even occurs in the heart of EV-ville.

In the center of Southern California nestled between Superchargers, is Palmdale, California, just north of LA. If you live there and want to go fishing, skiing, or shopping at Big Bear which is east of LA, you have to plan it out. These are popular areas but are connected by state highways. It's 100 miles each way, much of it steep twisty mountain roads with winds. You MIGHT make the roundtrip in a Tesla, but you might not.

So to play it safe, especially with a MS60, you stop at the closest Supercharger on the way which is 71 miles to the SC, then 57 mi to Big Bear, and you'll probably be safer to hit the SC on the way back or risk 157 miles in windy mountains. 57 miles + 71 miles each leg. So what was a 200 mile round trip which would take 4 hours of driving in a Bolt, could take a Tesla 5.5 hours of driving, with two recharging stops of 20 min each, or just over 6 hours if the SC has is not full and is charging fast.

Get outside of the heavily supported California area and things do not get better.
 
1 - 20 of 21 Posts
Top