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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited by Moderator)
Uhm, the point of my comment, is that many of us, not just I, are in the same boat. I doubt anyone cares about my personal choice.

However, for BEVs to become mainstream, they'll have to become a no-compromise choice. Right now, for me and others to buy a Bolt for more than just commuting, requires a big compromise in time. My regular long-distance trip, would require a minimum of an extra hour. That's 26 trips in a year, or 26+ hrs extra. However you value your time, then 26+hrs a year wasted, will in a few years time, fill whatever price gap there is between the Bolt and Model 3.

If Mary as you say, doesn't care why customers, that is, GM customers, are switching to alternatives, then I have little hope for GM's future plans. She should care. That's how you improve. Is it so hard to build out a better charging infrastructure? Tesla did it, and they're a tiny startup. They should at least have a plan, cause waiting for others to build out a high-speed charging network on par with Tesla's is essential for those companies to at least match Tesla.

I'm sure Mary Barra is losing sleep over that.

If those are your standards, fine. No one other than Tesla would meet your current expectations. Of course, that still requires you to pay many thousands more for the privilege of waiting two and a half years for a Model 3.
 

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Uhm, the point of my comment, is that many of us, not just I, are in the same boat. I doubt anyone cares about my personal choice.

However, for BEVs to become mainstream, they'll have to become a no-compromise choice. Right now, for me and others to buy a Bolt for more than just commuting, requires a big compromise in time.
And my point is, you are in a very small boat. For whatever reason, your state (Maine) is one of the major holdouts. Literally everyone who lives in surrounding areas has access to robust public charging, so the Bolt EV makes a great option for them.

Maine DCFC.jpg

My regular long-distance trip, would require a minimum of an extra hour. That's 26 trips in a year, or 26+ hrs extra. However you value your time, then 26+hrs a year wasted, will in a few years time, fill whatever price gap there is between the Bolt and Model 3.
And this makes your individual needs even more rare. The average American only drives 12,000 miles a year, and most rarely drive more than a couple hundred miles in a day.

Without knowing much about your "regular long-distance trips," it's hard to say exactly what your sacrifices would be. For my regular 500-mile trips, my "sacrifice" (the assumption being that this time is completely wasted) using the Bolt EV instead of my Volt is about 45 minutes to 1 hour, but that is because I rarely drive 8 hours straight without stopping for a meal along the way. When faster charging becomes available, that "sacrifice" will only be 30 to 40 minutes.

Now, yes, a Model 3 LR is superior in regards to long-distance travel times, so if that is your primary consideration, then the Model 3 LR is the better choice. By comparison, my additional "sacrifice" using the Model 3 LR instead of my Volt would be reduced to between zero and 15 minutes (essentially, the total charging time would be similar to the 45-minute dinner and 15-minute charging stop in the Volt). However, the Model 3 LR is, even at present, $10,000 more than the Bolt EV's most expensive trim. That's a huge differential to make up for using 10 to 20 hours "saved" per year.

So if you are instead looking at a Model 3 MR, it is still thousands more expensive than the most expensive Bolt EV, but it is not as capable of making long-distance trips as the more expensive LR. It will, no doubt, still be faster than the Bolt EV, but it will be a significant downgrade from the LR (most likely about a 20% increase in required charging time).

And if you want to get a Model 3 that is comparable in price to the Bolt EV, you have to wait for the Model 3 SR, which will require even more sacrifices in terms of time spent charging (probably 40% more than the LR). It will most likely still be faster on a long trip than the Bolt EV, but minimally so... maybe 10 to 15 minutes on a 500-mile trip. Waiting three years for a car that is incrementally better (for the stated purpose of long-distance trips) doesn't make sense. Basically, if you haven't already bought a Model 3 LR, your justification for not buying a Bolt EV and waiting on the Model 3 MR/SR isn't tenable (using your own stated values).

The only justifiable reason is because you live in a state that doesn't support EVs, so the only fast charging available is through private networks (i.e., Tesla).

My priorities are different. I couldn't justify waiting three years (yes, "saving" 30 to 40 hours a year... before I consider the time spent at local gas stations) for an incrementally better EV that I could afford because my number one priority was eliminating the 500+ gallons of gas I was burning in the Volt each year. But to each his own.

Just don't pretend that because GM's first no-compromise EV doesn't meet your specific needs, it is somehow not a huge win for many other people. What GM is offering with the Bolt EV is amazing, and there's really nothing that Tesla fanatics can say that makes that less true.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
Dunno about you, but I value my hours at $100+per. So, 26+hours wasted, yes wasted, is at a minimum $2600 wasted a year. A few years of that, and you've pretty much filled any price gap between the Bolt and Model 3. It's not such a "huge differential" if you do the math.

I love when people tell me when my argument is un"tenable"! Makes me laugh! My argument works for me. May be un"tenable" for you!

You burned 500+ gallons of gas in your Volt?!? Your use case is an outlier too!

You know, I wish you wouldn't make such a big straw man argument, as it makes me want to just ignore you from here on out. I didn't say the Bolt doesn't work for alot of people. Please point where I said that. And, characterizing my comment as from a "Tesla fanatic" is ad hominem insulting. I own a Volt, and I've written that I love my Volt. I also pointed out that I wanted to make the Bolt work for me, since I like it alot, but it's impossible. Nowhere did I say the Bolt wasn't amazing. I just pointed out that the Bolt doesn't work for me, and that's because its greatest weakness is its charging infrastructure. Don't take my word for it, you can see plenty of reviews pointing out the same. It charges too slowly. I've also pointed out, that the Model S does not work for me. Some "Tesla fanatic" I am. The Model S85D would take 47 mins for me to charge, compared to 17mins in a Model 3. The Model 3 is the first BEV that is a no-compromise vehicle for me. I didn't say for you. I didn't say for anyone else, so don't put words in my mouth. I just think the Model 3 LR AWD has passed some tipping point and people should notice, because that's the biggest thing people talk about holding them back from considering a BEV. For any BEV to reach a mainstream audience, it has to be no compromises, and that's what the Model 3 LR AWD is for me.
 

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Dunno about you, but I value my hours at $100+per. So, 26+hours wasted, yes wasted, is at a minimum $2600 wasted a year. A few years of that, and you've pretty much filled any price gap between the Bolt and Model 3. It's not such a "huge differential" if you do the math.
If your time is worth that much, you should be flying.

I love when people tell me when my argument is un"tenable"! Makes me laugh! My argument works for me. May be un"tenable" for you!
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For any BEV to reach a mainstream audience, it has to be no compromises, and that's what the Model 3 LR AWD is for me.
So you are getting the LR. Then why are you waiting? That's what I said about your argument being untenable. If you were willing to wait for an LR because the amount of time it would save you pays for the difference between it and the price of the Bolt EV, then that's fine. But if you then say that you're waiting for a Model 3, that would mean you're not getting the LR and passing up on the thing you say you value most (your time). Essentially, you were contradicting yourself (i.e., an untenable argument).

And, yes, you did say that there were "many" people in your situation. In other words, the Bolt EV doesn't work for a lot of people. Now, if we want to go into specific numbers regarding how many people the Bolt EV would and wouldn't work for, that's a bit different. My point is that the Bolt EV is more than sufficient for the needs of a majority of Americans (far more than 50% of the population). If I had to hazard a guess, I'd say less than 20% of the population has your needs.

And if you make $200,000 a year (as you stated), that puts you in the top 1% of wage earners in the United States. Congratulations, your time is worth more than 99% of the people in this country.

You burned 500+ gallons of gas in your Volt?!? Your use case is an outlier too!
I don't deny it. It represents one of the more extreme cases of EV ownership. No charging at home. Regular commute distances of 150 miles a day. Regular long trips of around 500 miles each way. It's why I catalog my experiences and use them as a teaching tool. In essence, if my car works for me, it works for most people.

And when I'm referring to Tesla fanatics, I'm making a general statement about a group of people (yes, there are some even on these forums) who do not consider non-Tesla EVs logically or reasonably. Essentially, discounting the strengths and advantages that non-Tesla EVs have while focusing (and sometime misrepresenting) the strengths and advantages of Tesla vehicles. And yes, some of your statements made me wonder whether you fall into that category.
 

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Discussion Starter #5
Wow, so argumentative, and so much unwanted advice.

The Model 3 IS the LR AWD version. That's how it's abbreviated. It's not two different cars. You're just making up stuff now to make yourself appear right. Further, contradicting oneself is not an untenable argument. Two totally different things. If you're going to correct people, at least get your facts right.

Clearly, you're the kind of person who always likes to get in the last word, and then tells himself he was right. Congrats.

Whatever your guesstimates of how many people could use a Bolt, is it a good idea for Mary to be ignoring even "20% of the population", like you said she would, as she's "not losing any sleep" over customers like me?

Nowhere did I say what I earn, because people will judge you, only how I valued my time, totally different economic concept. Look it up. I think alot of people do and should value their time for $100 an hour or more. Time is our most precious commodity. And here I am wasting it!

If someone disagrees with you, it doesn't mean they're wrong, and a "fanatic", and somehow need to be converted to your way of thinking. Have you noticed that you regularly get into these long back-n-forths with people, on these boards, cause I have. I've recommended the Volt and the Bolt to numerous people, and I know some have purchased. I've made a decision to buy a Model 3 LR AWD which will be here this week or next, and it makes me laugh that you might characterize me as a "Tesla fanatic". I buy the vehicle that best suits my needs, and I don't need someone who can't keep the facts straight arguing with me about what car I should or shouldn't be buying.
If your time is worth that much, you should be flying.

So you are getting the LR. Then why are you waiting? That's what I said about your argument being untenable. If you were willing to wait for an LR because the amount of time it would save you pays for the difference between it and the price of the Bolt EV, then that's fine. But if you then say that you're waiting for a Model 3, that would mean you're not getting the LR and passing up on the thing you say you value most (your time). Essentially, you were contradicting yourself (i.e., an untenable argument).

And, yes, you did say that there were "many" people in your situation. In other words, the Bolt EV doesn't work for a lot of people. Now, if we want to go into specific numbers regarding how many people the Bolt EV would and wouldn't work for, that's a bit different. My point is that the Bolt EV is more than sufficient for the needs of a majority of Americans (far more than 50% of the population). If I had to hazard a guess, I'd say less than 20% of the population has your needs.

And if you make $200,000 a year (as you stated), that puts you in the top 1% of wage earners in the United States. Congratulations, your time is worth more than 99% of the people in this country.

I don't deny it. It represents one of the more extreme cases of EV ownership. No charging at home. Regular commute distances of 150 miles a day. Regular long trips of around 500 miles each way. It's why I catalog my experiences and use them as a teaching tool. In essence, if my car works for me, it works for most people.

And when I'm referring to Tesla fanatics, I'm making a general statement about a group of people (yes, there are some even on these forums) who do not consider non-Tesla EVs logically or reasonably. Essentially, discounting the strengths and advantages that non-Tesla EVs have while focusing (and sometime misrepresenting) the strengths and advantages of Tesla vehicles. And yes, some of your statements made me wonder whether you fall into that category.
 

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Not sure about you but outside of 9 to 5 my time is worth $0. I never had an employer pay me for not working and even when I was the employer, I paid myself $0 for not working. When I'm taking a long trip that would require recharging, it's on my own time, again worth $0. I realise there might be jobs where long distance driving will pay you for your driving time but are they going to deduct you if you take 15 minutes or half an hour longer or an hour longer on a 8 to ten hour trip? It's true time is valuable in the sense it is limited (no one lives forever) but the onus is on you to fill that time that makes sense to you but you can't put a dollar value on it. That "wasted" time spent recharging can be spent catching some shut eye, taking in the local sights, shopping, doing something but not "wasting" it. If you are "wasting" it, it's on you. That's how I see it or as Forrest would say, "That's all I have to say about that".
 

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Discussion Starter #7
You are hung up on wages. Time has an economic value, all of our time. We make numerous decisions during the day about how we use our time, based upon how valuable doing those activities are to us.

For example, let's say your employer offers to pay you to work, on your scheduled day off. You decline, because it's not worth it to you. Your leisure time has more value than the compensation being offered. Your employer might have to offer you double or triple your normal wage, in order to get you to work on your scheduled day off, AND, you would still keep your day off. The point is, even when you don't work, your time has value, and that free time is at last on par with your wages, but some economists believe it is worth more, as in my example. The employer has to pay you more than your normal wage to get you to work more.

Here's another example. You need to fill the Volt's tank with gas. You can do that down the street on your way home from work, for $3.50, or you could go across town about 20mins away where the gas is $3.25. Do you waste 40mins, 20 mins going and 20 mins coming back, in order to save that quarter a gallon? How about if it were 50 cents a gallon? See, we make choices all the time based upon how valuable we think our time is, and it doesn't have to do anything with work.

As for not putting a dollar value on your free time, I can assure you economists do it all the time, and so do we. We just don't always realize it.
 

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Discussion Starter #8
Feel free to correct me wherever I've made a mistake. If you can't, I'd prefer you stop the nonsense. Who's being open-minded here and who isn't? Why is it that anyone who's made the switch from Volt to Model 3 is vilified? Odd. Anything "twisty" please point it out. I have never criticized anyone's decision to buy the Volt or Bolt. I love my Volt and offer tons of helpful advice to fellow Volt owners. And I like the Bolt, but the slow charging infrastructure was a clear weakness for me. You see that comment in lots of places and all of the review articles. I didn't make it up. You can't make a long-distance trip in a Bolt in the same time as you can in a Volt, in real-world applications, but you can in a Model 3. That's a big difference. That's no time compromises in the way a person makes a long-distance trip. Honestly, I was rooting for the Bolt, since I have no issues with the narrow seat, and it disappoints me that with a year's head start, they couldn't improve the charging infrastructure enough to make the decision difficult for me. For me, the Model 3 won by default. I can't afford to buy a Bolt if it takes me an extra hour to make my regular long-distance trip vs a Model 3. I doubt anyone would do it, not even Ladogaboy!
I think "no compromise" is straight up BS stemming from 1-dimensional thinking, but Ken's already getting twisty with the argument he's having, so I figured I'd go easy. ;)
 

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Discussion Starter #9
I would give that some further consideration and here's why....

Think about where this thing was 5 and 10 years ago. Now try to think 5 years ahead. There are signs that big change will come in half of those 5 years. It's likely to make your "no compromises" car obsolete.

I'm not in any rush just yet to buy anything. What I have serves me well for now, and speaking of the value of time, think about the value of patience. I save a lot of money by avoiding frequent car purchases when they aren't necessary.
My 85 Saab 900 turbo had 220k miles on it, when I got my 2001 BMW, which has 230k miles on it. I think I've been pretty patient. I love when people give you advice based upon not knowing anything about you.
 

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Feel free to correct me wherever I've made a mistake. If you can't, I'd prefer you stop the nonsense. Who's being open-minded here and who isn't? Why is it that anyone who's made the switch from Volt to Model 3 is vilified? Odd. Anything "twisty" please point it out. I have never criticized anyone's decision to buy the Volt or Bolt. I love my Volt and offer tons of helpful advice to fellow Volt owners. And I like the Bolt, but the slow charging infrastructure was a clear weakness for me. You see that comment in lots of places and all of the review articles. I didn't make it up. You can't make a long-distance trip in a Bolt in the same time as you can in a Volt, in real-world applications, but you can in a Model 3. That's a big difference. That's no time compromises in the way a person makes a long-distance trip. Honestly, I was rooting for the Bolt, since I have no issues with the narrow seat, and it disappoints me that with a year's head start, they couldn't improve the charging infrastructure enough to make the decision difficult for me. For me, the Model 3 won by default. I can't afford to buy a Bolt if it takes me an extra hour to make my regular long-distance trip vs a Model 3. I doubt anyone would do it, not even Ladogaboy!
Here's the thing, Ken. You implied that you were in the market for a pure BEV. The Bolt EV didn't meet your criteria, so GM lost an actual sale (i.e., you were really going to buy it). You then said that you primarily value your time, so you were waiting for your Model 3 (as if you actually bought it). But then it turns out that you didn't actually order one?

I don't want to speak for Dave here, but it I were to use the word "twisty," it would be because it appears that you are mixing actual intents with hypothetical reasoning, which makes your logic very difficult to follow.

As for the Model 3 LR (or any variant) keeping pace with the Volt on long trips, well, it just doesn't. The only way it keeps up is if you are a frequent stopper. I acknowledge that I prefer to have a sit-down dinner on my regular 500-mile trips, which is why the Model 3 LR might be able to keep pace with the Volt. Otherwise, it would take 45 minutes to 1 hour longer than the Volt on my 500-mile trip (basically, if I was just "splashing and dashing" in the Volt).

Now it's possible that the Model 3 can support 2 C charging rates, but we don't know for sure right now because the Superchargers just aren't that fast. If Tesla can get Supercharger V3 working (or better yet, if they just adopt CCS), it might be possible that the Model 3 LR will charge at up to as much as 150 kW. At that point, it might only be about 30 to 45 minutes slower than the Volt on my typical 500-mile trips.
 

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Discussion Starter #11
Obviously, my understanding of "twisty" is different than yours. It's a pejorative where I come from.

That much is just for openers, but I'll read the rest. You seems to be quite upset at just about everything that doesn't absolutely agree with you. That's kinda twisty.

Did you have the feeling of being vilified because I take exception to an absolute term? There are no absolutes. Absolutes are the nonsense, and this place is chock-full of nonsense.

FYI I drove a Bolt and didn't like it enough to buy it. I don't think Steverino or Ladogaboy should take it personally that I say so. They like theirs.

I don't care what you own, I really don't. Folks should like what they drive.
 

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Discussion Starter #12
Huh, what? My Model 3 is scheduled for Home Delivery on the 11th, ordered 4 months ago. Where did I say I didn't order one? See what I mean, you either are reading posts so fast, that you've mixed things up, or you're just making things up out of thin air. I don't know what to make of it.

Frequent stopper?!? In my first post, I explained my regular long-distance trip that I've been doing for 40 years, and how the Volt, Bolt or Model 3 would fare. For that 330+ mile round trip, the Model 3 is the fastest for me, because it only requires 17mins of charging. I make one pitstop each way for coffee and a toilet break. Sure, I can make it the whole way without stopping, but I've been doing this trip for 40+ years and a coffee and a toilet break are just part of the routine.

The Volt requires that I fill up with gas before and after the trip. Those are extra stops or trips. The Bolt, according to abetterrouteplanner shows that it'll take 1h 17mins of charging. That's an extra hour, 3 and a half times more than the Model 3. If one stop either way is "frequent" so be it. Declare victory and be done with it.

Here's the thing, Ken. You implied that you were in the market for a pure BEV. The Bolt EV didn't meet your criteria, so GM lost an actual sale (i.e., you were really going to buy it). You then said that you primarily value your time, so you were waiting for your Model 3 (as if you actually bought it). But then it turns out that you didn't actually order one?

I don't want to speak for Dave here, but it I were to use the word "twisty," it would be because it appears that you are mixing actual intents with hypothetical reasoning, which makes your logic very difficult to follow.

As for the Model 3 LR (or any variant) keeping pace with the Volt on long trips, well, it just doesn't. The only way it keeps up is if you are a frequent stopper. I acknowledge that I prefer to have a sit-down dinner on my regular 500-mile trips, which is why the Model 3 LR might be able to keep pace with the Volt. Otherwise, it would take 45 minutes to 1 hour longer than the Volt on my 500-mile trip (basically, if I was just "splashing and dashing" in the Volt).

Now it's possible that the Model 3 can support 2 C charging rates, but we don't know for sure right now because the Superchargers just aren't that fast. If Tesla can get Supercharger V3 working (or better yet, if they just adopt CCS), it might be possible that the Model 3 LR will charge at up to as much as 150 kW. At that point, it might only be about 30 to 45 minutes slower than the Volt on my typical 500-mile trips.
 

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Hey Ken, I agree with you. My time is worth a lot even though I no longer work. If ones time is worth $0 as some have stated, it is like saying ones life is worthless. None of us are. The vehicle that works for you is "The vehicle you should own", not the vehicle I should own.

As for Tesla, I was a fan boy and almost purchased one (even though the closest dealer is ~800 miles away), but that changed when I looked at the charging infrastructure. It doesn't exist for the first 300 miles of my normal "long" trips (1200-1400 miles). I'll have made 4 of them this year. NO, I will not fly - for many reasons.

Probably, in winter (-20 to -40 f) with the TM3, I might be able to get a range of 150-200 miles. Either way, as I have posted on a few sites, I can't get there from here. Just a fact of life at this point in time. OH, I might find a L2 unit to charge during that trip but my time is worth a lot more to me than to waste it charging for ?x? hours so I can get to a supercharger.

So, I purchased the Volt and it IS "The vehicle I should own". Not you or Ladogaboy necessarily.
Unfortunately, this will probably be my last electric unless the infrastructure or battery technology gets a lot better or there is another decent PHEV. For us that live in the hinterlands the Volt is/was probably the best choice. I know it was for me as almost all my local driving is electric.
 

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...Mary ... should care. That's how you improve. Is it so hard to build out a better charging infrastructure? Tesla did it, and they're a tiny startup. They should at least have a plan, cause waiting for others to build out a high-speed charging network on par with Tesla's is essential for those companies to at least match Tesla.
I agree Tesla has succeeded at creating a good solution for charging and that is an edge over the Bolt. However, I don't think that the most efficient way forward for society is for each car company to build out a separate proprietary network. It seems to me that the ideal public charging network would be a common one that is used by all makes and models of EVs. That is going to be the best thing for consumers.

Think of a world in which the top 5 or so car companies each have a well-developed nationwide charging network that is closed to other brands of cars. At that point, it will be extremely difficult for a new company to ever enter the market. The barrier to entry will be higher than it ever was before because in addition to developing and making a new vehicle, they will need to build out a nationwide charging network to attract customers.
 

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And my point is, you are in a very small boat. For whatever reason, your state (Maine) is one of the major holdouts. Literally everyone who lives in surrounding areas has access to robust public charging, so the Bolt EV makes a great option for them.

View attachment 156555
When you overlay the population densities over this map of Maine (and New Hampshire) you see the DCFC locations are in the populous regions of the state. The rest of the state is very lightly populated and even finding an open gas station on Sunday can be somewhat of a challenge. In a sense, this map is the poster boy for the use case for putting the Voltec drivetrain with a larger battery into a small SUV.

On the flip side, how much time is saved by not going to the gas station on a weekly basis? It may not be the 26 hours OP reports for his bi-weekly trip but for most of us the time savings of an EV, not to mention the cost of not buying gas, are tremendous.
 

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Hey Ken, I agree with you. My time is worth a lot even though I no longer work. If ones time is worth $0 as some have stated, it is like saying ones life is worthless. None of us are. The vehicle that works for you is "The vehicle you should own", not the vehicle I should own.
Not at all. If I say my time is worth $1,000 per hour that doesn't mean it is. If no one is paying me for my time then that's what it is worth, $0. For every hour of my time, $0 gets deposited in my bank account. That's if you are trying to equate time with money. The onely time you can say your time (off work) is worth money is if your employer (or some one else) is paying you to do nothing.
 

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FISpyder. If you feel your spare time is not worth anything (money is not the only criteria, only a measure) then I feel sorry for your family and friends. I guess when you get older you will realize that the closer the toilet paper gets to the end, it rolls much faster.
 

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Your time definitely has value. If your time had no value, then you should be willing to work for an employer during all of your free time (say every evening and 16 hours per day all weekend) and not need any wages at all for that. I doubt you would do that.
 

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FISpyder. If you feel your spare time is not worth anything (money is not the only criteria, only a measure) then I feel sorry for your family and friends. I guess when you get older you will realize that the closer the toilet paper gets to the end, it rolls much faster.
That was exactly my point. Any one who feels they need (or can) put a money value on their time needs to be felt sorry for.
 

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FISpyder. If you feel your spare time is not worth anything (money is not the only criteria, only a measure) then I feel sorry for your family and friends. I guess when you get older you will realize that the closer the toilet paper gets to the end, it rolls much faster.
Agree. The argument is so silly. Time has value and value can include multiple ways of expressing it.

People, remember sometimes it is best to go to a persons profile page and add them to your Ignore List. Don't let them waste your time by even having to skip over their post as you can just 'suppress' them if their input waste your time and you value it.

 
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