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Discussion Starter #1
My first electricity bill since my solar system went online

Pop quiz


Which of the following are charges, taxes, and fees I pay to the electric company each month and which are quotes from the 1980 movie; Popeye?


Customer account charge $.38

Delivery service charge $3.56

Environmental benefits surcharge $.99

Federal environmental improvement surcharge $.02

Systems benefit charge $.39

Power supply adjustment -$.18

Metering $.54

Meter reading $.37

Billing $.42

Docking tax $.25

Generation of electricity $7.79

Federal transmission and ancillary services $.69

Federal transmission cost adjustment $.94

Four Corners cost adjustment $.29

LFCR adjustor $.28

New in town tax $.17

Leaving your junk lying around the warf tax $1.00

Regulatory assessment $.04

State sales tax $.94

County sales tax $.12

City sales tax $.45

Franchise fee $.33

Embarrassing the tax man tax ......one sunflower



Another thing I got is a sensk of humiligration. Now, maybe you swabs can pool your intelligensk and sees that I'm axking you for an apologeky.
 

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Junk on the warf, and sunflower....

Power companies are only slightly better than oil companies. They don't drastically raise their rates just before holidays or when some oil sheik sneezes.

Sadly where I live, if I generate power, they won't pay me for it. The best I can hope for is net metering where I need to use as much as I make in a year (april to april) or it becomes a gift to the power company. Plus, they are government to get out of the net metering laws so they can screw solar panel array owners.
 

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Or phone companies. My $10 phone line costs me $38 because of all the fees and taxes.
I thought I was the only one paying $40 for a $10 a month additional phone on my plan...

LLninja - I have the same problem in AK. I can only generate what I use. Funny part, I have a renewable energy surcharge on my bill, even though I don't have a personal solar/wind power generator. (It's for the wind power they claim they are forced to use). Just like I have an underground/buried cable surcharge for my above ground power lines.
 

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The only thing on the customer's side is the fact that once we have solar panels installed, we are only a few batteries and an inverter away from "off the grid", and, as those parts keep getting cheaper and better, the cost of a full stand alone system gets more attractive every year. And if one of those new battery or inverter technologies finally has a breakthrough, the power companies might lose their solar customers instantly.
 

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I thought I was the only one paying $40 for a $10 a month additional phone on my plan...

LLninja - I have the same problem in AK. I can only generate what I use. Funny part, I have a renewable energy surcharge on my bill, even though I don't have a personal solar/wind power generator. (It's for the wind power they claim they are forced to use). Just like I have an underground/buried cable surcharge for my above ground power lines.
Interesting. I had to pay $3500 to have the underground wire brought from the pole a quarter mile away to the green box near my house. They were willing to add poles for free, but my wife would have nothing of the sort (and i agree). We paid to not have an eyesore.
 

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The only thing on the customer's side is the fact that once we have solar panels installed, we are only a few batteries and an inverter away from "off the grid", and, as those parts keep getting cheaper and better, the cost of a full stand alone system gets more attractive every year. And if one of those new battery or inverter technologies finally has a breakthrough, the power companies might lose their solar customers instantly.
Yup, the OP just needs to add 5 or more powerwalls and some additional panels to be able to give the power company the finger and be off the grid. You can always throw money at it. But the ROI might not be there. Just the satisfaction of closing the account and disconnecting.
 

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Utilities are regulated monopolies and PUC has to agree costing of items. Besides any stealth taxes you might have, you could easily end up with a bill that has a bunch of itemized items the utility charges to recover various costs.

Our bill is very simple (service fee + delivery fee per kWh + supply fee per kWh + sales tax) but it really is hiding the breakdown.

The problem isn't necessarily that the bills are fully itemized, it's that they are opaque.
 

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The 25 cent docking tax was for Popeye. So where the leaving your junk lying around the warf tax, new in town tax, and embarrassing the tax man tax.

I gave the power company a call. They tried to go over the various charges, but even they were unable to keep from laughing, while trying to justify all the charges. It turned out these were small charges because they were only for one week of billing. Then they installed the new meter, so the next bill will be for more.

They explained that from November to April, they charge 9 cents per kWh. May to October, it's 9 cents the first 400Kw's, then 14 cents until you go above 2200 kWh. Then they charge 16 cents. Above 3000kWh, they charge 17 cents per kWh.
 

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They explained that from November to April, they charge 9 cents per kWh. May to October, it's 9 cents the first 400Kw's, then 14 cents until you go above 2200 kWh. Then they charge 16 cents. Above 3000kWh, they charge 17 cents per kWh.
Oh, tiers and fully-kWh-based pricing. Really a horrible way of pricing it, but I'm sure they like it. When you price using an average based on typical behavior you reduce the incentive to reduce the really high-cost behavior.
 

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Sadly where I live, if I generate power, they won't pay me for it. The best I can hope for is net metering where I need to use as much as I make in a year (april to april) or it becomes a gift to the power company. Plus, they are government to get out of the net metering laws so they can screw solar panel array owners.
I still don't understand this mindset one tiny little bit. If I drill a water well in my back yard, I don't get to sell my excess water production to the water company. If I'm growing a garden, I'm not selling my extra tomatoes to Del Monte. If I'm making bio diesel, I don't have Exxon sending me a check for X number of gallons every month.

So why is electric different?

If these companies are so evil, install your own battery bank and go 100% off grid. Of course, this is rhetorical, as I already know the answer there - it's too expensive, and you'll never have a positive ROI on that setup.
 

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So why is electric different?
Because it is a government granted monopoly in most jurisdictions. Net metering solar saves everyone fuel costs and infrastructure costs.

Granted, I do agree that the ROI is not there without subsidies. But please tell me what industry doesn't have subsidies these days?
 

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We're blessed to be served by a consumer-owned rural electric cooperative with net metering, and the base charge for their hookup is $25.00 plus $.44 tax. The energy charge is a flat $0.1045 per kWh. Last year's net consumption was 3958 kWh, and an energy charge of $413.61. Our home and several outbuildings are all-electric, and, of course, we "fuel" the Volt from the sun!

I spent most of my professional life as a corporate electric utility attorney and CEO, fighting "net metering" and other consumer energy subsidies tooth and nail in courtrooms and legislative halls. Now look at me!

[Edit] Total kWh consumption for 2016 was a whopping 26,011 kWh!
 

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I still don't understand this mindset one tiny little bit. If I drill a water well in my back yard, I don't get to sell my excess water production to the water company. If I'm growing a garden, I'm not selling my extra tomatoes to Del Monte. If I'm making bio diesel, I don't have Exxon sending me a check for X number of gallons every month.

So why is electric different?

If these companies are so evil, install your own battery bank and go 100% off grid. Of course, this is rhetorical, as I already know the answer there - it's too expensive, and you'll never have a positive ROI on that setup.
Typo on my part. my power company is lobbying the government to not require them to allow net metering. if that happens, it makes it much harder for me as I'll need a bank of batteries instead of using the power grid as my bank.
 

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I still don't understand this mindset one tiny little bit. If I drill a water well in my back yard, I don't get to sell my excess water production to the water company. If I'm growing a garden, I'm not selling my extra tomatoes to Del Monte. If I'm making bio diesel, I don't have Exxon sending me a check for X number of gallons every month.

So why is electric different?

If these companies are so evil, install your own battery bank and go 100% off grid. Of course, this is rhetorical, as I already know the answer there - it's too expensive, and you'll never have a positive ROI on that setup.
Let's deal with the basics, electrons are electrons are electrons. A PV system can sell back without having to refine the power source outside the inverters and the owners safety expense installing back feed cutoffs in times of power outages . Further, by selling back clean energy, power companies will able to save money by not having to build new power plants. Further there is the added benefit for the community and communities down wind of solar farm do not have to deal with the devastating effects from the pollution caused by coal power plant or any other fossil fuel plant.

As for water argument. Water pumped out of the ground, must be tested and meet government criteria for the safety of the public before it is sent through municipal water pipes. No water company would dare take the chance with water coming from a private source that is not continually monitor and treated. It was bad enough that in Flint, Michigan, when the state government overlooked concerns about the water coming from Flint river to save money.

Ah, as for the tomatoes. There is no stopping you from selling your extra tomatoes to restaurants or any other venue that wishes to purchased them. And as far as I know, there are no rules for you trying to get a contract with del monte, though I doubt that you could supply them with enough tomatoes for their needs.
And for the biodiesel argument, again the same thing holds true for as was for the water.

Your reasoning therefore is spurious to say the least..
 

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Let's deal with the basics, electrons are electrons are electrons. A PV system can sell back without having to refine the power source outside the inverters and the owners safety expense installing back feed cutoffs in times of power outages . Further, by selling back clean energy, power companies will able to save money by not having to build new power plants. Further there is the added benefit for the community and communities down wind of solar farm do not have to deal with the devastating effects from the pollution caused by coal power plant or any other fossil fuel plant.

As for water argument. Water pumped out of the ground, must be tested and meet government criteria for the safety of the public before it is sent through municipal water pipes. No water company would dare take the chance with water coming from a private source that is not continually monitor and treated. It was bad enough that in Flint, Michigan, when the state government overlooked concerns about the water coming from Flint river to save money.

Ah, as for the tomatoes. There is no stopping you from selling your extra tomatoes to restaurants or any other venue that wishes to purchased them. And as far as I know, there are no rules for you trying to get a contract with del monte, though I doubt that you could supply them with enough tomatoes for their needs.
And for the biodiesel argument, again the same thing holds true for as was for the water.

Your reasoning therefore is spurious to say the least..
There's a guy down the street from me who has 80 chickens and sells his eggs at a local farmer's market. He also has a giant vegetable garden, but doesn't sell those because there are plenty of other competitors at that particular farmer's market. He's the only guy around sellign farm fresh eggs.
 

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What some of you need is a simple billing statement like ours. I had some electric usage above net-metering in Feb, 2017, but have a credit towards my April, 2017 billing from my March, 2017 statement. Since it's all city-owned, our NatGas is on the same statement along with garbage pickup.

CPS-Feb-17.JPG

CPS-Mar-17.JPG
 
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