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I was considering replacing my 2015 Volt with the Mustang Mach-E within the next few years. But after watching a few tear down videos from Munro, I will stay away from the Mach-E in its current iteration.
If you think the Volt cooling/heating system is complicated, you won’t believe what they’ve done with the Mach-E!
After removing numerous plastic panels in the frunk compartment just to pull out the “tub”, there is a rat’s nest of coolant and refrigerant lines, pumps, fittings, components, and mounting brackets. There are 35 coolant hoses plus numerous plastic fittings all connected with spring clamps. Each connection is another possible leak point. There are 4 coolant pumps. Everything seems thrown together in a haphazard way.
Comparing side by side with the Model Y assembly it’s clear the Tesla engineering is better. The frunk “tub” is a simple single piece assembly without a bunch of side panels. The cooling system is much simpler with everything mounted closer together in a logical way so hoses and lines are shorter. I’m not a big fan of Tesla, but this time they have Ford beat.
But on the plus side, the Mach-E battery pack seems very well made. It not only houses the cells but also increases structural integrity of the chassis.
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Saw that video when it came out but still want one. Yeah the cooling system is better designed on the Tesla but the rest of the Mustang is heads and shoulders better than the Tesla. It's most certainly put together better.

I would have a Mach-E in my driveway now if I could lease one, it's a sharp looking set of wheels.
 
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Discussion Starter · #3 · (Edited)
Remember when they said that EV’s would be much simpler than ICE cars, and more reliable because of fewer parts? I just can’t see that rat’s nest being very reliable. And an extended warranty won’t help because they all exclude rubber hoses, o-rings and seals.
Hopefully the next generation of Mach-E will be better engineered.
 

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Monro is changing the EV market while selling EVs because he's pointing to not just the cost issues of manufacture but revealing the logic of best practices. I find it refreshing.

Still, I think they missed the point on the Mach-e ... Monro said it was because corporate, which enjoys as simple a parts catalog - multi-use of things like compressors and condensers with use on multiple lines - and he's right that corporate management pressed for the part by part function over engineering elegance that reduces costs, minimizes maintenance and is less prone to failure. But Monroe laments saying essentially that is how the big automakers build cars.

What Monroe 'knows' but couldn't prove is that the inevitable maintenance problems is just planned obsolescence. The objective of effectively designing in maintenance and failure issues is a nod to their dealer networks who expect to profit long-term as the cars age out of warranty.

What was really funny in the video was when Monro, after making the comparative simplicity of the Tesla design to the Mach-e, he said that the Mach-e was not nearly as 'bad' as the ones he's seen from other manufacturers.

What Ford did with the Mach-e is what they've been doing with all their vehicles just as GM, FCA, VW, etc. do and that paradigm worked with ICE vehicles that typically wear out major systems in ten years and 150,000 miles. The problem with EVs is motors and transmissions, and if you believe Musk, batteries can have a useful life of 1 million miles.

We're all trying to figure out exactly what that means for our actions. In the pre-Monro world where folks were impressed by four-barrels and five-speeds, the Mach-e is a great EV designed by ICE car makers to easily outperform ICE vehicles. The same with the Lightening and the F150; the EV pickup is designed to be the better choice over the ICE models.
 

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I was considering replacing my 2015 Volt with the Mustang Mach-E within the next few years. But after watching a few tear down videos from Munro, I will stay away from the Mach-E in its current iteration.
If you think the Volt cooling/heating system is complicated, you won’t believe what they’ve done with the Mach-E!
After removing numerous plastic panels in the frunk compartment just to pull out the “tub”, there is a rat’s nest of coolant and refrigerant lines, pumps, fittings, components, and mounting brackets. There are 35 coolant hoses plus numerous plastic fittings all connected with spring clamps. Each connection is another possible leak point. There are 4 coolant pumps. Everything seems thrown together in a haphazard way.
Comparing side by side with the Model Y assembly it’s clear the Tesla engineering is better. The frunk “tub” is a simple single piece assembly without a bunch of side panels. The cooling system is much simpler with everything mounted closer together in a logical way so hoses and lines are shorter. I’m not a big fan of Tesla, but this time they have Ford beat.
But on the plus side, the Mach-E battery pack seems very well made. It not only houses the cells but also increases structural integrity of the chassis.
View attachment 172667

That rat's nest may have unforeseen benefits. There's a video of a Tesla that had a simple coolant system connection (plastic) at the bottom of the chassis that was cracked. Appeared that something got kicked up and hit it. It resulted in leak and an error code and limits put on the motors. As always happens, it was barely out of warranty. Guy took it to Tesla, which said they would need to replace a battery pack(!) because the cracked connector was not repairable or replaceable. $16,000. Fortunately, he found a shop in another state who was able to modify the broken piece and insert a brass piece to replace the broken section of plastic. Wi the labor and replacing coolant it was still pricey (over $1,000, I think), it still wasn't 16K.
But while a lot of pipes and hoses in a small area, it appears the Mach E is well protected from undercar vulnerabilities. I'm no fan of the Mach E - though I might be more so if they didn't steal the Mustang badge for it (hey, It's Ford's name, they can do with it what they like). It often seems that it's the unintended consequences of "elegant" design that ends up costing a lot more when they go wrong.
 

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That rat's nest may have unforeseen benefits. There's a video of a Tesla that had a simple coolant system connection (plastic) at the bottom of the chassis that was cracked. Appeared that something got kicked up and hit it. It resulted in leak and an error code and limits put on the motors. As always happens, it was barely out of warranty. Guy took it to Tesla, which said they would need to replace a battery pack(!) because the cracked connector was not repairable or replaceable. $16,000.
That's in a nutshell the main issue I have with Tesla's. Their service centers are unable to repair a pack if a cell or section goes bad. They have to replace the entire pack, and then send the old one off for refurbishment. It's why people are sending their Tesla's to independent shops (i.e. Gruber). The structural battery will likely make this worse. Other parts when they break are very expensive to replace. Simplicity and a clean design is good, however all vehicles will need service, and they should be designed with this in mind.
 

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That non OEM fix was $700 fix from a couple dollar part from Home Depot. It worked and what I would have done as a DIY fix except it would void any warranty the battery might have. It wasn't something that broke because of engineering design but from road debris that was thrown up. Not something that would wear out or break under normal circumstances. It was a leased car so when it goes back, it still would have to be fixed properly if caught.
 

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I was considering replacing my 2015 Volt with the Mustang Mach-E within the next few years. But after watching a few tear down videos from Munro, I will stay away from the Mach-E in its current iteration.
I actually did replace my 2015 Volt with a Mach-E, (well, with a 1-year pause between them), and I can tell you, I am VERY happy that I did. Not that there is anything wrong with the Volt, it was a great car but the Mach-E is the first BEV that seems worth the money and makes sense for my family and heavy right-foot "needs".

I too have been following Monroe's teardown videos and what he fails to mention is the fact that Ford and their dealer's service centers have a huge inventory and expertise in the distributed set of parts in that cooling system. That means they probably can source it all much more cheaply. When something does fail it's going to be an individual part to replace, not some bespoke, monolithic part that does a dozen things that will surely be a much more expensive thing to diagnose and replace.

Also, note that (in both videos) they fail to include the radiator that the Tesla uses to cool the heat exchanger plate but they do show it on the MME assembly. I've heard that the Tesla one is smaller but they really shouldn't have omitted it.

None of this is to take away from Tesla's innovations - they do some pretty amazing tech but I'm not so sure Monroe is thinking/caring about long term maintenance or TCO when he makes these videos.
 
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I was a bit interested in the Mach-E until I saw one on a dealer lot. No thanks.
Also it and the Maverick are built in Mexico. I'm out on both.
 

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I was a bit interested in the Mach-E until I saw one on a dealer lot. No thanks.
Also it and the Maverick are built in Mexico. I'm out on both.
As they say, "Beauty is in the eye of the beholder."
 

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As they say, "Beauty is in the eye of the beholder."
Yeah it certainly is. You either like the looks of a particular vehicle or you don't. It'd be pretty boring if we all liked and drove the same cars...

I for one think that the Mach-E looks sharp.
 
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I didn't watch the video but get the gist of it from others comments but don't understand why form is taking over from function for him?

Why does it need to look good where it's at? I don't see much of a "hornets nest" on that pic at the top personally. Take the cover off any ICE engine and it's not much different. These are hoses, etc that are NEEDED to do the job they're there for. You can't get around that fact.

Would it make Sandy Munro feel better if the SAME # of hoses were all in a straight and neat pattern so instead of a "hornets nest", it's a nice lattice pattern? The # of hoses wouldn't change they'd just look better ... who cares!

Think of his motives as a youtuber ... must've been a slow day for him if he's complaining about how hoses look in a non-visible part of the vehicle.

Personally, that affects my purchase decision by exactly 0%.
 

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I didn't watch the video but get the gist of it from others comments but don't understand why form is taking over from function for him?

Why does it need to look good where it's at? I don't see much of a "hornets nest" on that pic at the top personally. Take the cover off any ICE engine and it's not much different. These are hoses, etc that are NEEDED to do the job they're there for. You can't get around that fact.

Would it make Sandy Munro feel better if the SAME # of hoses were all in a straight and neat pattern so instead of a "hornets nest", it's a nice lattice pattern? The # of hoses wouldn't change they'd just look better ... who cares!

Think of his motives as a youtuber ... must've been a slow day for him if he's complaining about how hoses look in a non-visible part of the vehicle.

Personally, that affects my purchase decision by exactly 0%.
Re: looks ... nice lattice pattern.
You are looking highlevel since you didn't watch the video and are not in their fields of work and expertise.
You are looking at this from a consumer perspective vs a manufacturer perspective like they do.
 

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This youtuber doesn't have a manufacturing background but gives you a glimpse into their Audi e-tron. There are some accessibility and simplification things going on. One example is the fluid routing at the base.

Title: Audi e-tron GT Frunk - What's inside



 

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whats inside,,about 10k in damage from rear ending the driver in front of you.:p I still like it.
 

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I didn't watch the video but get the gist of it from others comments but don't understand why form is taking over from function for him?

Why does it need to look good where it's at? I don't see much of a "hornets nest" on that pic at the top personally. Take the cover off any ICE engine and it's not much different. These are hoses, etc that are NEEDED to do the job they're there for. You can't get around that fact.

Would it make Sandy Munro feel better if the SAME # of hoses were all in a straight and neat pattern so instead of a "hornets nest", it's a nice lattice pattern? The # of hoses wouldn't change they'd just look better ... who cares!

Think of his motives as a youtuber ... must've been a slow day for him if he's complaining about how hoses look in a non-visible part of the vehicle.

Personally, that affects my purchase decision by exactly 0%.
We aren't looking at an ICE vehicle, we are looking at an EV. Look at a comparable Tesla and you have like two hoses, one going in and one coming out. Look at the Mach E and you have 32 junctions, short hoses being connected to short hoses, each and every one a failure point. It's carried over into the the inverter. As Munro said, the only reason they put 16 screws to mount the rather small electronics board was because there wasn't room to put 17. This seems to be carried out though out the whole car. You'd think after over a hundred years of designing cars, they would have learned a thing or two. It's like they are trying to insure the dealerships have something to do after selling a car.
 
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