[Arcanox]

I saw a Hyundai Ioniq Hybrid on my way home today and it looked fancy, which of course made me curious enough to look it up when I got home. One of the first things I saw in the Wikipedia article on it was that it doesn't have a 12V battery. Does anyone know what it would use as a replacement? I thought it was required by federal law that the high-voltage battery be completely isolated when the vehicle was turned off (hence why even the Tesla has a 12V battery), but I don't know how that would work if there's no low-voltage battery in the vehicle. The lights, locks, etc. wouldn't work if the vehicle was off, and the Start button would have to mechanically connect the high-voltage battery relay when pressed.

I'm wondering if maybe the article cited as the source for that information on Wikipedia is not entirely accurate in saying it doesn't have a 12V battery and they're using something like a smaller Li-Po or Li-Ion 12V battery (which my dad's motorcycle has instead of a lead-acid or AGM now).

 

[saghost]

From what I've read, I think it uses a "12V" Lithium-Ion battery that's electrically separate from the main pack but physically located within that enclosure.

You need a low voltage system for accessories, and you need a battery (or capacitor stack in the future?) to stabilize the voltage on that system and to run the computers to certify the high voltage safe before it connects the high voltage.

 

[Arcanox]

From what I've read, I think it uses a "12V" Lithium-Ion battery that's electrically separate from the main pack but physically located within that enclosure.

You need a low voltage system for accessories, and you need a battery (or capacitor stack in the future?) to stabilize the voltage on that system and to run the computers to certify the high voltage safe before it connects the high voltage.

Oh, that would make sense. Technically once the car is on, the DC-DC inverter should output a perfectly steady 14V source (stable and clean enough to run sensitive computer components), but when it's off, like you said, it has to be able to run its checks to make sure the HV system is a-go.

I suppose technically depending on the design of the battery, they could just isolate all but 4 cells of the battery, but it might be better to have the low-voltage portion more easily replaceable.

I wonder if the Ioniq can receive or provide a jump start...

 

[Arcanox]

Ok, so you were right, they can apparently use any one of the LiIon battery's sub-modules to power the low-voltage system when the car is off. The video here explains it. I suppose that means, however, that the car most likely cannot provide a jump start to another car with a dead 12V (hybrid or not), whereas our Volts could jump start another vehicle if need be.

 

[saghost]

Oh, that would make sense. Technically once the car is on, the DC-DC inverter should output a perfectly steady 14V source (stable and clean enough to run sensitive computer components), but when it's off, like you said, it has to be able to run its checks to make sure the HV system is a-go.

I suppose technically depending on the design of the battery, they could just isolate all but 4 cells of the battery, but it might be better to have the low-voltage portion more easily replaceable.

I wonder if the Ioniq can receive or provide a jump start...

DC-DC converters by nature produce ripple current/voltage at some level. You need capacitance in the circuit to clean that up, either from a battery or from capacitors.

Using some cells from the main pack has several problems. The largest of these is that you lose some of the isolation.

As currently designed, all the modern production EVs I've seen isolate both sides of the high voltage pack from the frame - and will open the HV contactors if either side begins to have even a slight connection to ground (or +12V I believe.)

As long as the computers and contactors react faster than the incident, this can even protect you from an extreme accident where both sides are shorted directly to the frame after an impact, because in the milliseconds it takes for the accident to progress from the first connection to the second, the car takes action to isolate.

With four cells hooked in to the 12V, I can't completely isolate both sides.

You also have the problem that those cells will be wearing differently than the rest - with implications for total pack capacity, since the most worn cells will limit the ability of the rest to take charge unless you use extensive (and expensive) active pack balancing.

There's no way that the risks and penalties of using part of the main pack are justified to eliminate the cost and weight of the 12V battery, especially since the battery can be much smaller/lower energy than an ICE 12V because it doesn't have to start an ICE.

 

[AZ EV Driver]

One of the features that has to happen by Federal standard is the Emergency Flashers must operate for a given period of time (not sure, but I think it is 12 hours). Usually these are operated by the 12v system, so what ever source is used has to live for that period of time.

VIN # B0985

 

[Jeff N]

Ok, so you were right, they can apparently use any one of the LiIon battery's sub-modules to power the low-voltage system when the car is off. The video here explains it. I suppose that means, however, that the car most likely cannot provide a jump start to another car with a dead 12V (hybrid or not), whereas our Volts could jump start another vehicle if need be.

The Hyundai VP on the video is speaking imprecisely and you may be over interpreting his comments. The Ioniq hybrid’s 12v battery has its own dedicated physical cells in the hybrid battery pack assembly and it is electrically separate from the main hybrid cells. It is not literally using “any one of the LiIon battery’s sub-modules”.

Here’s a good overview from Car & Driver:

https://blog.caranddriver.com/how-t...ts-traditional-12v-lead-acid-starter-battery/

 

[Arcanox]

The Hyundai VP on the video is speaking imprecisely and you may be over interpreting his comments. The Ioniq hybrid’s 12v battery has its own dedicated physical cells in the hybrid battery pack assembly and it is electrically separate from the main hybrid cells. It is not literally using “any one of the LiIon battery’s sub-modules”.

Here’s a good overview from Car & Driver:

https://blog.caranddriver.com/how-t...ts-traditional-12v-lead-acid-starter-battery/

I'm disappointed in the wording in that article...they describe the 12v module as needing to start the car's engine, and say that the alternator will charge it back up. The only problem: the engine should be off when the vehicle's stopped, and there's no alternator...somebody didn't do their research.

The "12v reset" button is a really neat idea though. It must be a direct relay connection to connect the HV battery to the APU to charge the LV system. Of course, you don't get pre-checks when that occurs...but in an emergency, that means you don't need to jump-start the car.

That would have been a great feature for my family's old Highlander Hybrid when its 12v went out and my dad and I were stuck at the train station for a little while in 20-degree weather...