If the cars don't reach speeds of 55-75 mph in all electric mode, then I am not interested. Majority of Californians who commute to work will use the freeway as part of the way getting to the work place. Thus, it is very important that the car should drive at normal freeway speed in all electric mode. This way, we will have an option to be truly gas-free.
The Volt gives us that option and you don't worry about getting a flat line on your battery either, or even frozen batteries during the coldest winter nights.
The new plug-in Prius from Toyota due to release in 2010, is still a golf cart by analogy, as the Prius with its current power configuration cannot get into freeway speed on pure electric mode. Sure the new design can be driven 10 miles in pure electric mode, that is, if you are driving at residential neighborhood speed limit or the stop and go city traffic speed. Even within some cities of California, posted speed limits ranges from 45 mph to 55 mph within some city streets, and the Prius cannot go into electric mode. This means that the Prius will always use gasoline even if it is a hybrid when used as a commuter vehicle, thus, Toyota is not giving us an option to stop funding the people who would love to kill us, unless you drive within 35 mph traffic speed limit within the city or residential areas.
I was wondering if Hyundai has the same parallel hybrid technology. I would have wanted them to use the REEV approach like the Volt, and then there is true competition.
It is true that we shouldn't count them out. The better the competition, the better off we as consumers be.
But I personally think that based on tidbits of reports, Toyota is desperate to diffuse the grand coming of the Volt. The next gen Prius for example won't be on Lithium ion type battery but on improved Nickel Metal hydride so that they can have something to offer by January 2010, creating an illusion that they are on the market well before GM does with the Chevy Volt which will be released by November 2010. This also indicates that Toyota's battery partners are not as advanced as GM's Volt battery suppliers. And with Toyota's blind enthusiasm for the parallel hybrid, claiming it to be a lot better than REEV, there is no incentive for them to go with better batteries that could move the vehicle in the same speed and range as the Volt.
And yes, you're right, don't count them out yet, they could easily change as the market demands.
When is this going to happen? And when it would be really safe to use?In this post I aim to put to rest any doubts that Toyota is going to use advanced lithium-ion batteries in their plug-in Prius that is due to be release around the same time as the Volt. I also establish relationships that suggest that the advanced lithium-ion electrodes will be lithium magnesium - either a layered LiMO2 component or a spinel LiM2O4 component.
You have just supported my implied argument that the Volt's range and price is well worth its money, if you do the math. Thank you!Firstly, I will write a few words about the Hymotion issue.
JoeReal, There is a few points that you have to address when talking about the Hymotion system. First, it is an aftermarket system that must be hand installed. It costs $10,000 and only produces 1/4 of the kWhs of the Volt's $10,000 battery. The production plug-in Prius will have the same cost advantages (being designed in from the start and having huge volumes - much bigger volumes than the Volt). Did you consider that? That the Prius’ lithium battery may actually be cheaper per kWh than the Volt's because the Prius may start out at a higher volume of production?
It is very clear that you are the one who can't interpret the above statements very clearly in the proper context of what COMMERCIAL test fleet is and how different it is than the actual commuting drivers. Yes I EVEN HAVE MENTIONED that the Prius lithium ion plug-ins will be released to COMMERCIAL test fleet by 2010, BUT it will be the "improved" Nickel Metal Hydride batteries that will be released for sale to the general public by January 2010, and the electric mode range of those ARE STILL PATHETIC as yourself have referenced. Mwa-ha-ha-ha!OK, now on to Toyota’s plug-in Prius (due out around the same time as the Volt):
“Toyota's rechargeable Prius will use lithium-ion batteries, an advance over the nickel-metal hydride versions in existing hybrids. More Range Rechargeable Priuses with extra nickel-metal batteries are now being tested in California and Japan, with a range of about 7 miles on battery power alone. Toyota estimates the new plug- ins will be able to travel 10 miles (16 kilometers) on a charge.
``We'll be studying the range, but think we'll need more than that for a consumer version,'' Toyota spokesman John Hanson said today in an interview from Tokyo. ``Non-consumer fleets'' such as utilities will use the vehicles, Hanson said.
Toyota, based in Toyota City, Japan, is targeting its first commercial plug-in sales for late 2010, the same debut GM expects for the Volt. The Detroit-based automaker wants the Volt to have as much as 40 miles of all-electric range.”
“For the redesigned Prius, Toyota will stick with the current generation’s nickel-metal hydride batteries. The long-awaited lithium ion batteries, light in weight and high in power, will debut in Toyota’s first plug-in hybrid, due in 2010, he said.
Panasonic EV Energy Co., the joint venture that makes Toyota’s hybrid vehicle batteries, will start making the lithium ion batteries in 2009, Takimoto said. Panasonic EV is building the production line at its main plant in Shizuoka, southwest of Tokyo.
Initial output will test quality consistency. Mass production will begin in 2010."
It think that is very clear. Do you still disagree, JoeReal? There are about 10 articles claiming the same thing. So, no. I really do not agree with you. I think you did not read the article carefully.
So what's the timeline of these FANTASTIC news? When is the Lithium Ion battery plug-in be really available for sale to the common public here in the USA? And have they completed testing the safety of these compared to that of A123's iron phosphate? And how are the recharge cycle lifetime of the close partners of Toyota's supposedly fantastic Lithium Ion batteries? Any data aside from speculation?Next lets talk about Toyota’s actual battery factory plans:
“The lithium ion batteries produced at the new plant will likely be scheduled for next-gen hybrids like the upcoming Lexus version of the third-generation Prius sedan. The total investment from Toyota will be \20 billion, or $192.3 million. These new plants are expected to support Toyota's ambitious goal to sell a million hybrid vehicles per year within the next decade. Currently, the Japanese giant is the global leader in hybrid sales, selling 429,000 of the gasoline/electric vehicles in 2007. The three plants will have the capacity to produce a million packs by the year 2011, which lines up quite nicely with Toyota's plans”
Toyota lithium-ion battery chemistry:
After digging around I have a good idea as to what lithium-ion battery chemistry Toyota is going to use for the Prius. You have to search the following path:
1) Toyota - Panasonic (established relationship)
2) Panasonic - Matsushita (Panasonic is a brand of Matsushita)
3) Matsushita - Mitsubishi (have joint ventures to produce auto-use lithium-ion batteries)
4) Mitsubishi - GS Yuasa ( formed the following)
5) Lithium Energy Japan (Makes the LEV50 and LEV50-4 large format lithium-ion battery)
6) LEV uses the same construction and electrodes as the LIM series.
7) LIM series stands for Lithium magnesium - Li2MnO3 (layered) component is structurally integrated with either a layered LiMO2 component or a spinel LiM2O4 component. These are advanced lithium-ion electrode materials.
Here are the supporting links that establish this relationship:
“Japan's Toyota Motor Corp, Nissan Motor Co and Mitsubishi Motors Corp have separate joint ventures with Matsushita Electric Industrial Co, the NEC Corp group and GS Yuasa Corp, respectively, to mass-produce auto-use lithium-ion batteries.”
“Lithium Energy Japan is a new company devoted to the development, manufacture and sale of large lithium-ion batteries. GS Yuasa joined forces with Mitsubishi Corporation and Mitsubishi Motors Corporation to establish "Lithium Energy Japan" in December of 2007.
Developing environmentally-friendly EVs to contribute to greenhouse gas (CO2) reduction.
The key to the development of EVs is efficient, compact, and high-performance lithium-ion batteries. The potential uses of such batteries are not limited solely to EVs; they could be used throughout cities to help usher in a new, environmentally-friendly society. And realizing this 'New Society' is the goal of "Lithium Energy Japan" as it takes the lead worldwide in achieving mass production of large lithium-ion batteries. "Lithium Energy Japan" makes sure its research and development are always one step ahead, that its selection of products and production capacity is continually expanding, and that it remains a constant contributor to the expansion of the lithium-ion battery market.”
“GS Yuasa has developed a new high capacity Lithium-ion cell and battery module for electric vehicle (EV) applications. The new cell and battery are based on the “LIM series” of large-sized Lithium-ion batteries manufactured by GS Yuasa [1, 2] and use a similar construction and electrode materials.”
Okay, I'm not much of a gambler, but for the sake of bragging rights, let's put a token $1 bet, to be sent to the winner of the bet on December 1, 2010:Summary:
I feel I have established that Toyota is going to use lithium-ion batteries in the plug-in Prius that is scheduled to be released around the same time as the Volt. I have also established clear relationships that show Toyota has access to high volumes of advanced lithium-ion batteries. Thus, it think it is unwise to discount Toyota in the plug-in hybrid race. I look forward to evaluating both the Prius and the Volt when they hit the showroom floor. The stakes are high. Who will deliver on time and who will falter?