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Discussion Starter #1
Hydrogen Shortage Hits Hard: Toyota Mirai Owners Urged To Top Up Frequently



According to a Green Car Reports article, at least at some of the 33 hydrogen refueling stations in California, FCVs owners might be surprised by a lack of hydrogen.

At one station there is even a message with info from Toyota: “Be advised: Hydrogen delivery issues everywhere. Don’t take chances, top off frequently. Toyota hotline says dealers know, will comp you for rental car.”
Green Car Reports article referenced:

Hydrogen supply shortage leaves fuel cell cars gasping in California (Updated)

Also on Inside EVs, perhaps related?

Toyota Claims Mass Production Of Fuel Cell Vehicles Will Start Soon



Toyota says that it will continue to invest in hydrogen fuel cells, to develop improved stacks, increase production volume, introduce more models and lower prices.
Those are quite some lofty goals there.

So far, less than 6,000 Mirai were sold (at around $60,000 before incentives), but from 2020 on, the Japanese company hopes to sell 30,000 annually.
 

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But...Toyota claimed hydrogen is the most abundant element in the universe, lol
 

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So Toyota is doubling down on hydrogen powered cars. Now the comments the Lexus president make sense - FUD EVs to promote hydrogen.
 

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But...Toyota claimed hydrogen is the most abundant element in the universe, lol
It is, but most of it is in the fusion cores of the stars. We can't even get close to our star (the Sun)!! The amount on planet Earth is tied up in molecules of water and other compounds. It takes more energy to extract the H2 than the energy a fuel cells returns.
 

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So Toyota is doubling down on hydrogen powered cars. Now the comments the Lexus president make sense - FUD EVs to promote hydrogen.
You (and Toyota) are forgetting that a Fuel Cell vehicle (such as the 2008 Chevy Equinox models that GM produced) are real "EVs" (electric vehicles). The difference is a smaller battery and a H2 fuel cell as the "range extender". The Volt can have a similar setup in the future.
 

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I still don't get why anyone would consider purchasing one of these vehicles, especially now knowing that they'll have to get a loaner from the dealership since their vehicles have no fuel. The whole convenience factor of fast fill-ups is completely ruined. I'm still not sick of telling people that it only takes me about 10 seconds to fill up my car since it charges while I go through my day or sleep. I don't have to drive out of my way to a specific location to fill up; it's conveniently done at school, work, and home. No excess driving or time wasted and it's fully refilled by the time I'm ready to leave.

Going out of my way to stop at a refueling station is a hassle in comparison.

Oh, and my car can refill anywhere there's a plug! The infrastructure is pretty much already built!
 

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It is, but most of it is in the fusion cores of the stars. We can't even get close to our star (the Sun)!! The amount on planet Earth is tied up in molecules of water and other compounds. It takes more energy to extract the H2 than the energy a fuel cells returns.
Exactly. Toyota marketing hype meets hydrogen fuel shortage reality.

I still don't get why anyone would consider purchasing one of these vehicles
You get to drive the really ugly child of a toaster and a Cylon Centurion.
 

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You (and Toyota) are forgetting that a Fuel Cell vehicle (such as the 2008 Chevy Equinox models that GM produced) are real "EVs" (electric vehicles). The difference is a smaller battery and a H2 fuel cell as the "range extender". The Volt can have a similar setup in the future.
From a thermodynamics point of view, it takes significantly more energy to create transportation quantities of commercially viable H[SUB]2[/SUB] (Hydrogen doesn't like to be single) than to charge any currently available rechargeable battery, LiOn or any other chemical structure. This is the Achilles heel for hydrogen fuel cells. This energy conversion loss also happens to be the reason GM engineers decided to allow the ICE engine to drive the 2nd gen Volt directly vs. burning the gas to create electricity to then drive the car. Yes, hydrogen fuel cells provide power more efficiently than batteries once they're filled, but creating the hydrogen for them is simply too expensive in the terms of electricity needed.
 

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The best way to get hydrogen is from tidal generators. Free electricity (except for some maintenance once built) and unlimited (practically speaking) water gives unending stream of hydrogen (not something you have in the middle of the desert with its solar farms. With gas distribution already setup across the country cost is minimal to add another station (or replace a gas pump). Advantage of quick refill times measured in a few minutes.

With electricity you need hydro (already fully utilized and limited expansion in the States, less so in Canada) or nuclear plants (more to come from that technology), solar (available in deserts both in amount and space) you need large expensive storage facilities with high maintenance costs and the same with wind. Infrastructure already built in at the home level, still to be built up at the away from home level. Can be refilled during down time which is most of the time except for Taxi's, truck hauling, etc.

Pros and cons to each. Will be interesting to see which wins or if it's not a win/lose scenario but both will exist.
 

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If Hydrogen were free and available at every major intersection in the country, then we would all be driving hydrogen fueled internal combustion cars. But it's not. It's a phenomenally energy intensive fuel, with lots of production emissions no matter what the source of that energy is. The same technologies that drive fuel cell costs and capabilties also drive battery membrane technology and as those technologies improve in cost or capability, batteries will always per more total energy efficient than fuel cells. what a waste...
 

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Discussion Starter #12
If Hydrogen were free and available at every major intersection in the country, then we would all be driving hydrogen fueled internal combustion cars. But it's not. It's a phenomenally energy intensive fuel, with lots of production emissions no matter what the source of that energy is. The same technologies that drive fuel cell costs and capabilties also drive battery membrane technology and as those technologies improve in cost or capability, batteries will always per more total energy efficient than fuel cells. what a waste...
And you know how the witless will say hydrogen production can be done with renewables. Lots of things can according to them. All we have to do is blanket the planet with solar panels.

And have lots of wire. :rolleyes:
 

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The best way to get hydrogen is from tidal generators. Free electricity (except for some maintenance once built) and unlimited (practically speaking) water gives unending stream of hydrogen (not something you have in the middle of the desert with its solar farms. With gas distribution already setup across the country cost is minimal to add another station (or replace a gas pump). Advantage of quick refill times measured in a few minutes.
Gas distribution is done primarily through pipelines. Gas is a liquid at room temperatures and can be pumped through pipes as a result. H[SUB]2[/SUB] is a gas, and as the smallest stable molecule in the universe, is nearly impossible to pump through a pipeline without huge losses. From a feasibility standpoint, we'd be better off pumping the water through the lines and converting it to H[SUB]2[/SUB] and 2O[SUB]2[/SUB], but that means we again need to have the power in the center of continents, so we're back to how to generate the electricity needed for this process.

Physics simply is against using hydrogen for personal transportation. It's quite useful elsewhere, but not in this particular application.
 

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And you know how the witless will say hydrogen production can be done with renewables. Lots of things can according to them. All we have to do is blanket the planet with solar panels.

And have lots of wire. :rolleyes:
Missed it by That much! (Several orders of magnitude...)

https://landartgenerator.org/blagi/archives/127

Turns out that the Sahara is about 18 times larger than required to generate all the electricity the entire world consumes.
This map shows possible desert locations around the world that could be used to distribute the panels closer to where the power is needed:
AreaRequired1000.jpg
Now, if we just had enough wire. Super-conducting of course...
 

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Gas distribution is done primarily through pipelines. Gas is a liquid at room temperatures and can be pumped through pipes as a result. H[SUB]2[/SUB] is a gas, and as the smallest stable molecule in the universe, is nearly impossible to pump through a pipeline without huge losses. From a feasibility standpoint, we'd be better off pumping the water through the lines and converting it to H[SUB]2[/SUB] and 2O[SUB]2[/SUB], but that means we again need to have the power in the center of continents, so we're back to how to generate the electricity needed for this process.

Physics simply is against using hydrogen for personal transportation. It's quite useful elsewhere, but not in this particular application.
Not true. There are currently 1600 miles of pipeline used for pumping hydrogen from one place to another. Another way is compressed container and liquified container shipping. There's a pro and con for each. The more production centers the lower the shipping costs, the bigger the production centers the cheaper to make but more expensive the longer distribution costs. There are more ways to make it than just electrolysis. Lots of research being done into ways to make/distribute it cheaper just like there is research in better battery solutions. Only time will tell which is better/cheaper in the long run or if ultimately it will be a combination.
 

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Discussion Starter #17
Missed it by That much! (Several orders of magnitude...)
LOL - yeah mockery is often hyperbolic.

Turns out that the Sahara is about 18 times larger than required to generate all the electricity the entire world consumes.
1) Needed today?
2) Now you know if you cover up the desert or anywhere else the environmentalists will have a reason why you can't. I recall something about the Sahara being necessary to balance the world climate.

Now, if we just had enough wire. Super-conducting of course...
OMG! Think of all the destructive mining we'll have to do!!!

And don't forget all the other materials production....... :rolleyes:
 
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