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Discussion Starter #1
http://www.xinhuanet.com/english/2017-12/24/c_136849031.htm

In China, it was announced that an investment of $1.75 billion USD (11.5 billion yuan) will be spent to build the country's first research and production business park for hydrogen fuel cells, according to authorities of the Wuhan Economic and Technological Development Zone, in Hubei Province. Their focus, for now, is on fuel cells for generators and coaches (buses).
 

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According to the U.S. Department of Energy "...a fuel cell coupled with an electric motor is two to three times more efficient than an internal combustion engine running on gasoline."
 

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I still don't see the logic of fuel cells. You take energy to make energy. With electric cars (or as in the Volt PHEV), which can be powered by the sun, are sort of perpetual in the grand scheme of things.
 

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I still don't see the logic of fuel cells. You take energy to make energy. With electric cars (or as in the Volt PHEV), which can be powered by the sun, are sort of perpetual in the grand scheme of things.
Many technologies are in the works to produce hydrogen efficiently, or from the excess wind or solar energy when production of renewable electricity exceeds demand.
 

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I still don't see the logic of fuel cells. You take energy to make energy. With electric cars (or as in the Volt PHEV), which can be powered by the sun, are sort of perpetual in the grand scheme of things.
Hydrogen production to power fuel cells is about where BEV charging was five years ago, but ramping up faster. For companies like Tesla, this growing energy source could represent a blow to sales of those vehicles dependent on batteries to store and generate power to run electric motors. The bigger problem for Tesla is they are a one-act show. They only build BEVs. Every other major manufacturer gets the bulk of their profits from ICE sales. They are spending some of those profits in developing alternatives to ICE, but none have staked their entire existence on BEVs as Tesla has done.

Where Tesla has had to foot the bill to get its Supercharger network built, the growing global hydrogen network is getting much broader support even from the oil and gas industry itself not wanting to be left behind in the adoption of cleaner and more efficient energy generation.

One differentiating factor in the auto and truck industry is in the refueling time. Car and truck fill-ups using hydrogen gas are completed in about the same time it takes to fill a gasoline or diesel tank - under 10 minutes. That is a huge advantage to the 40-60 minutes even Superchargers need to recharge a Tesla lithium-ion battery pack. The most popular method, home charging, takes hours overnight.
 

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I still don't see the logic of fuel cells. You take energy to make energy. With electric cars (or as in the Volt PHEV), which can be powered by the sun, are sort of perpetual in the grand scheme of things.
because with renewable like wind and solar you don't get to decide when to make power so excess should be put to use plus you have no guarantee when its available. until we get true nationwide power connections we still have a lot of storage requirements
 

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Discussion Starter #9
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/18/business/electric-car-adoption.html

Batteries for use in cars and trucks are heavy and expensive. Tesla will not disclose the cost of a replacement battery pack or electric motors for its vehicles. Any Tesla replacements required up until now have been done under warranty. In reviewing Tesla invoices posted to the internet they never disclose the costs attributable to any repairs done under warranty. GM quotes the battery pack replacement for the Chevy Bolt at $15,734.29.

Part of the high costs of batteries are the materials that go into them which are on the rise.

In the above New York Times article:

PRICE OF COBALT: Up 115 percent this year

PRICE OF LITHIUM: Up 45 percent

PRICE OF GRAPHITE: Up 30 percent

In an effort to achieve Elon Musk's quest for a "greener" planet one has to question the effectiveness of batteries. The idea was to get away from fossil fuels that emit CO2 into the atmosphere. So with batteries, we are still mining for minerals using heavy equipment that burns diesel. The raw ores must still be further refined and shipped to battery cell manufacturers. More fuel burned. More CO2 released. The same CO2 that traps heat from the sun contributing to global warming.
 

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Common thought might think there can only be one successful type of power train. But these changing times are no longer following 'normal' thinking. Filling up at home overnight is just so easy many will choose battery electric or plugin hybrid power trains. Commercial vehicles, trucks, fleets, buses that get lots of use might prefer fuel cells. I even think ICE power trains will exist for a very long time. Locations experiencing pollution will likely tax fuels based upon the the amount of pollution they create. So that will be a factor in many places also. So just might be there are no losers in the power train battles just winners if they live up to their hype.

Gonna be slow and take longer than everyone predicts but slowly new batteries, new fuel cells and maybe some other technologies will make it to large scale production and each will have their own advantages and disadvantages just like body styles do now.
 

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I think China are making a big mistake based on poor science thinking. Well to wheel hydrogen is very low efficiency and wastes a lot of energy with up to 90% losses along with serious transport, storage and handling issues. Plus there is insufficient platinum and fresh water in the world that would be needed for the world to go to hydrogen. Desalination would be another energy loss. And all this to save what will be no more than 10 to 20 minutes when on long trips. Note the latest Tesla has a 200kw battery and 600mile range so I would expect the Bolt 2 to be 350 range plus and more superchargers will be installed over time so why bother with it?
 

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Fuel cells will probably never be as efficient and practical as batteries for personal vehicles used locally. But there are definitely some applications where BEV technology isn't a good fit, like long haul trucking or airliners. We need other technologies for that and fuel cell may be part of the answer.

Hydrogen fuel can be clean if made using solar/wind/hydro power or waste off peak power. And while it can be shipped, it does not have to be, if made at the fueling point.
 

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No, hydrogen IS dead, at least for automotive applications. And on critical-condition life support for about every other application other than power generating fuel cells in industrial applications that can use the waste heat. Just because governments still pour money into the grave doesn't mean it's alive.

FYI, Sierra Nevada Brewery was an early experimenter with industrial natural gas-based hydrogen fuel cell generator technology. They eventually pulled out the fuel cells in favor of cheaper and simpler natural-gas-fired micro turbine cogeneration sets paired with brain-dead simple photovoltaics.

Despite major investments in H2 distribution technology, current automotive hydrogen fuel cost is still running about $14/kg, which will drive you about 65 miles. Even the California hydrogen community struggles to put a positive spin on hydrogen costs - they say it may drop as low as $10-$8/kg by 2022.

Do the math and compare to BEV charge-at-home per-mile costs, a 54 mpg Prius, or any current-generation 35-40 mpg sedan per-mile cost.

Hydrogen fuel prices range from $12.85 to more than $16 per kilogram (kg), but the most common price is $13.99 per kg (equivalent on a price per energy basis to $5.60 per gallon of gasoline), which translates to an operating cost of $0.21 per mile. Automakers are including three years of hydrogen fuel with their initial sales and lease offerings, which will shield early market adopters from this initially high fuel price.

While future price is uncertain, NREL estimates that hydrogen fuel prices may fall to the $10 to $8 per kg range in the 2020 to 2025 period. A kilogram of hydrogen has about the same energy content as a gallon of gasoline.
California Fuel Cell Partnership fuel cost link
 

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Discussion Starter #14
No, hydrogen IS dead, at least for automotive applications. And on critical-condition life support for about every other application other than power generating fuel cells in industrial applications that can use the waste heat. Just because governments still pour money into the grave doesn't mean it's alive.

FYI, Sierra Nevada Brewery was an early experimenter with industrial natural gas-based hydrogen fuel cell generator technology. They eventually pulled out the fuel cells in favor of cheaper and simpler natural-gas-fired micro turbine cogeneration sets paired with brain-dead simple photovoltaics.

Despite major investments in H2 distribution technology, current automotive hydrogen fuel cost is still running about $14/kg, which will drive you about 65 miles. Even the California hydrogen community struggles to put a positive spin on hydrogen costs - they say it may drop as low as $10-$8/kg by 2022.

Do the math and compare to BEV charge-at-home per-mile costs, a 54 mpg Prius, or any current-generation 35-40 mpg sedan per-mile cost.



California Fuel Cell Partnership fuel cost link
That would be a great surprise to Shell...

Royal Dutch Shell seems to not be taking any chances. They are playing the long game in alternative energy solutions. They have been working with BMW's Designworks on a new and futuristic station design. This short video ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1DyYGa2GzCg&ab_channel=Shell )shows the idea behind this process of using otherwise lost excess power from renewables to create and use hydrogen at what could become large savings.

The concept is even more appealing today as we expand the amount of solar and wind power being generated. It is becoming common to see windmills shut down on windy days because the grid cannot accept the additional energy. I saw this routinely up in Montana. This means lost revenue to the company that owns the wind or solar farms. Finding new ways to absorb/sell this extra power is a better solution for everyone. With the conversion to easily stored hydrogen, stations can take advantage of the lowest available electricity rates and store the created hydrogen in tanks for later use. Batteries cannot be filled beyond their much smaller capacities.

Shell with hydrogen stations in operation in California, England and Germany has taken quite a lead over other oil companies in finding ways to put available clean energy to use. Shell takes about two months to construct a hydrogen station that can be located at existing gas stations using an area about the size of a tennis court.

Eleven Japanese companies, including automotive giants Toyota, Nissan, and Honda, and oil companies JXTG Nippon Oil and Idemitsu Kosan, have signed an agreement to form a new company in the spring of 2018, aimed at the full-fledged development of hydrogen recharging stations (HRS) for fuel cell vehicles (FCV)." (FuelsandLubes.com 12/21/17)
Even the U.S. Department of Energy is in the act to promote hydrogen. On January 19, 2017, they awarded a $1 million prize to the developers of a new, compact hydrogen fueling station called SimpleFuel. The energy department is convinced that hydrogen fuel cells and battery electric vehicles are the best ways to get U.S. drivers off gasoline. The lacking ingredient they feel is a hydrogen fueling network.

At current counts from the U.S. Dept. of Energy, there are 39 public hydrogen stations in four states (CA, MA, CT and SC). 34 more are planned for 2018 in 6 states (NY and RI will be adding public stations in 2018). There also are 24 private H2 stations across eight additional states with seven more stations planned for 2018. (TX, IL, MI, OH, MD DE, PA, and NJ). That is a total of 104 that are known to be planned by the end of 2018. That number will grow once Nikola announces the locations they are choosing for their network rollout.

Clean Energy Fuels (CLNE) already has teamed up with Pilot/Flying J travel centers to install CNG/LNG refueling pumps on existing sites. The opportunity and space exist at these same locations to install hydrogen generating stations for use by both cars and trucks.

Tesla will be at a disadvantage for two reasons. 1) They built a Supercharger network that could only support cars. So now they need another entire network for trucks. 2) Because of the time it takes to recharge batteries. In the time it will take a Tesla "Megacharger" stall to power up one truck for 400 miles, a hydrogen stall could have fueled 2-3 trucks for an average of 1,000 miles, and can be operated at peak efficiency 24 hours a day. Tesla will need late-night/early morning recharging to minimize electricity costs they have guaranteed to their customers at just $.07/kWh.
 

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Looks like you're spamming pro-hydrogen fool cells!

Oh wait.... it's all in one thread. Carry on....... ;)
Sure looks to me like there is a roll to play for hydrogen and it should not be ignored. Best to explore all of our options don't you think?
 

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Sure looks to me like there is a roll to play for hydrogen and it should not be ignored. Best to explore all of our options don't you think?
Not sure how that relates to my tongue-in-cheek comment about advocating in an appropriate manner. It's sort of relevant this week. Trick question or non sequitur?

What I think is irrelevant. It's already being explored. I'm not in a position to influence or make command decisions on energy or infrastructure.

I've been told it's a net energy loser. I'm not in a position to properly evaluate that. No doubt the results of the exploitative.... er.... explorative efforts will bear out the truth, eventually, and if gubmint can keep its thumb off the scale this time. Ah crud - too late!

P.S.: It's role, not roll. ;)
 
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