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How long after getting PPR’s did your battery last

  • 1 less than 8000 miles

    Votes: 1 25.0%
  • 2 more than 10000 mile

    Votes: 1 25.0%
  • 3 never died after 10000 miles

    Votes: 1 25.0%
  • 4 has not died, watching out for more PPR’s

    Votes: 2 50.0%
  • Above is for higher mileage batteries

    Votes: 0 0.0%
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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
See poll/ mostly aimed at people with higher mileage batteries
I have 8000 miles left on warranty and I am getting PPR’s
Reduced propulsion power message.

This means you can not drive over 25 mph for like 10 minutes or so. Not sure how often a PPR message is asociated with being limited to 25MPH. Based on the thread history I would say most all the time

Hoping most people did not end up with dead battery within 8000 to 10000 miles after a PPR message. The message may be a reaction to normal battery degradation and not a sign of things leading to a dead cell. A dead cell will shut the car down, trip CEL's and you can no longer drive he car. Even with just the ICE engine/gen.

After going thru the threads I have read of at least 3 or more experiences where people with high mileage batteries wo get this message have had battery cell failures within 8000 to ?? miles. This poll is designed to access some probability of how likely their battery is likely to fails after getting PPR's. Especially for those who still have some time left on their Voltec warranty.

My assumption is that if you have done a estimate of battery degradation and found that is only around 10% and are still getting the PPR messages that it is a more likely sign of a impending up and coming dead cell. EVEN without initialy tripping a CEL code, as has happened to several others. As is also my case. The situation has to increase before getting a CEL error code registered. This info was too complicated to put into the above poll.


Here is a quote from Clublife.Peoria from another thread. "Correct. And in my experience, it takes a lot of PPR messages (literally months in my case or around 10k of driving with the occasional PPR) before it sets a code. "
 

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10 year old Volt, no PPR, battery has not died.
 
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Been driving my 2012 Volt for over 9 years. Have had a few PPRs after I drive far enough to run out of gas during a Fuel Maintenance Mode. The car is supposed to trigger a PPR if there’s no gas, nothing to do with the condition of the battery. I also had at least one PPR episode when extending the range when driving fast up a steep mountain road when I was not in Mountain Mode. That is also how it is supposed to work because of how the Gen 1 Volt system is engineered to extend the car’s range using a combination of generator output and power from the buffer to fuel the motor. Battery is still meeting my needs after 9 years. Why would the battery "fail" simply because the demand for fuel you place on the propulsion system (e.g., "need enough fuel to drive at 90 mph") requires more fuel than the system can supply from the generator output and the battery buffer of a battery that has lost perhaps 10% or more of its capacity over the years?
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
I also had at least one PPR episode when extending the range when driving fast up a steep mountain road when I was not in Mountain Mode. That is also how it is supposed to work because of how the Gen 1 Volt system is engineered to extend the car’s range using a combination of generator output and power from the buffer to fuel the motor. Battery is still meeting my needs after 9 years.
Why would the battery "fail" simply because the demand for fuel you place on the propulsion system (e.g., "need enough fuel to drive at 90 mph") requires more fuel than the system can supply from the generator output and the battery buffer of a battery that has lost perhaps 10% or more of its capacity over the years?
As the normal battery degradation increases so does the end of EV miles buffer that has the reserve power in it. The message may be a reaction to normal battery degradation and not a sign of things leading to a dead cell. A dead cell will shut the car down, trip CEL's and you can no longer drive he car. You can not drive the car with just the ICE engine/gen. The message for a older battery could be a combination of both reasons. The poll is designed to get some data on how often the PPR message in older batteries has been followed by a dead cell.

When you had the PPR going up the steep mountain I assume you had to pull off to the side or the road to let the battery recharge or continue at a very slow rate. This would be a normal PPR message situation where and the chance of a up and coming dead cell would be very very minimal.

After going thru the threads I have read of at least 3 or more experiences where people with high mileage batteries wo get this message have had battery cell failures within 8000 to ?? miles. This poll is designed to access some probability of how likely their battery is likely to fails after getting PPR's. Especially for those who still have some time left on their Voltec warranty.

My assumption is that if you have done a estimate of battery degradation and found that is only around 10% and are still getting the PPR messages that it is more likely a sign in of a impending up and coming dead cell. As is my case. How do do this is covered in one of the other threads on this topic by myself and others.
 

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one PPR, months before my 2012 got added to the program to fix that, which I got done without undue delay, never happened since. It happened at startup, i let the ICE run while I checked the manual, and when it quit, turned the car off and on and it didn't come back. I read more other places, hypothesized that at least part of the battery may be "too low" as part of what triggered it, saw how that could easily be made worse by unbalanced cells that the fix program was addressing. So I started making sure to let the ICE run and turn off naturally before turning off the car if I wasn't going to be plugging it right in, and suggested that others try that as well.
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
one PPR, months before my 2012 got added to the program to fix that, which I got done without undue delay, never happened since. It happened at startup, i let the ICE run while I checked the manual, and when it quit, turned the car off and on and it didn't come back. I read more other places, hypothesized that at least part of the battery may be "too low" as part of what triggered it, saw how that could easily be made worse by unbalanced cells that the fix program was addressing. So I started making sure to let the ICE run and turn off naturally before turning off the car if I wasn't going to be plugging it right in, and suggested that others try that as well.
The balance issue seems to be mostly from the 2011 to 2012 cars. But I guess it can happen to any car that is not often driven to the end of EV miles then to extended range. This practise extends battery health and increased EV Miles. Not sure if it directly related or indirectly related to battery balance issues.
 

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The balance issue seems to be mostly from the 2011 to 2012 cars. But I guess it can happen to any car that is not often driven to the end of EV miles then to extended range. This practise extends battery health and increased EV Miles. Not sure if it directly related or indirectly related to battery balance issues.
There seems to be some confusing about GOM confusion and cell balancing going around. The "drive to end of range" is to help reset the GOM's idea of how much power it can actually get out of a battery before the voltage goes low enough to trigger the change from charge depletion to charge sustain. The cell balance cycle is a programmed event that's supposed to take place at the END of a charging cycle where the battery is charged up to full and then left plugged in for a good chunk of time after "fully charged". During that balance cycle, the Volt turns off charging to groups of cells to continue charging slow or still-low voltage cells up to being more even with the rest of the pack. OBD port on the passenger side carries the messages where you can watch that happen: pack voltage overall reaches the "full" voltage, the car reaches the end of the charge cycle, and there's a flurry of cell message turning groups off and TYPICALLY over the next 10-20 minutes the rest finish charging up their last bits and wink out. That cycle NEVER runs if you unplug right after the car signals that it's fully charged, and 10-20 minute is only a typical case. I've see claims that it can take 45-60 minutes, and I think that might be what's going on when some "delayed charging" scenarios start "early": the car wants to do a balance, so if you told it to be ready at 0630, it might begin an hour earlier than you expect to be full at 0530, and leave time for balancing.

The balancing program update (i think N172130462) (among other things) fixed an issue where that balancing cycle might get broken and never ran. And the consequence of that never running was that the cell groups that never got charged up fully also got run down deeper into the "low voltage buffer" than the others, which was harder on them and marginally reduced their capacity a little bit more than the others, so they would be even less likely to charge fully the next time. If that went on long enough, eventually that leads to the PPR events because when the car switched to CS mode, the cell group voltages got read, there were groups that were extremely out of whack low and the ICE would have to run frantically to try to fix those low-voltage groups back to a safe zone, maybe even at the cost or reducing the output generator power to the electric motor, devoting more of it to restorative charging.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Thanks for the clarification, Hellsop.

So it’s not just running to end of EV Miles and doing a full recharge, But also to charge about a hr longer then it takes to get to full charge so the balance program can do its thing.
 

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My assumption is that if you have done a estimate of battery degradation and found that is only around 10% and are still getting the PPR messages that it is more likely a sign in of a impending up and coming dead cell. As is my case. How do do this is covered in one of the other threads on this topic by myself and others.
You should evaluate the conditions under which you are getting those PPR messages. In one of those other threads on this topic, you stated, "Back in 2016... I stayed under 60MPH. I had a record of that. Now I try to stay under 82MPH to 76MPH and the day before the PPR hit, I think I may have been doing 90MPH on the last leg of trip home."

Seems to me your high-speed PPRs could be the result of driving at those high speeds on the highway after your battery was depleted, i.e., as if you were driving a gas-hybrid car, not an electric car trying to maintain that speed while fueling the 111 kW traction motor with the output of a 55 kW generator.
 

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Here is an explanation (post #3) for N172130462. In addition to addressing the cell balancing issue, this update allows the ignoring of up to 3 redundant battery temp sensor failures.
 

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10 year old Volt, no PPR, battery has not died.
Ditto here as well, one is now 10 years old the other is 9 year and 6 months.
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 · (Edited)
You should evaluate the conditions under which you are getting those PPR messages. In one of those other threads on this topic, you stated, "Back in 2016... I stayed under 60MPH. I had a record of that. Now I try to stay under 82MPH to 76MPH and the day before the PPR hit, I think I may have been doing 90MPH on the last leg of trip home."

Seems to me your high-speed PPRs could be the result of driving at those high speeds on the highway after your battery was depleted, i.e., as if you were driving a gas-hybrid car, not an electric car trying to maintain that speed while fueling the 111 kW traction motor with the output of a 55 kW generator.



Hello wordptom

That most probally was a contributor on that day. Going 90MPH is never a consistant thing for me, once I notice it I back off. But, last week the PPR happened again, where I was watching my speed closer and going no more then 70-80 MPH. On this day the sun was hot and it sat in the sun for about 1,5hrs before I got back in and got the PPR message and had to wait a bit to recharge and restart. I have never recieved one of these messages in 92000 miles.

I am trying to access the seriousness of these messages in older 80K + Miles Volts. Most posts on this do not say what happened 8000 to 10000miles later. The few that do report failed batteries.
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
DUPLICATE MESSAGE TRYING TO DELETE
 

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I had PPRs all the time before my battery failed. Moving the car to even get groceries was a PITA as the limited speed made me a hazard on the road.

Edit: changed my vote to add 10,000 miles as there may have been a PPR shortly after purchase, but I was able to just put it in Mountain Mode and get gas and was back on my way. Didn’t remember it because it was such a non issue at the time.
 

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Over a month ago I noticed that the battery in my 2014 with 70,000 mi was depleted & switched to Generator at 9.3 Kwh which concerned me. Being retired, most of my driving is within the battery capacity and all charging is with the EVSE normally at 9 Amps. So I charged it at 12 amps resulting in the capacity increase to 9.6 Kwh. So even if I only used 20 percent of capacity, I began using 12 Amp charge all the time. The next time I depleted it, it went to 9.9 Kwh, then I stopped at the grocery. When I restarted and pulled into traffic and attempted to accelerate I got the "Propulsion Power Reduced". It worried me so I switched to MM & it took a couple of minutes to put enough energy into the battery to eliminate the PPR. I Drove it home & put it on 12 amp charge overnight. The next time that I drove it to depletion, it delivered 10.6 Kwh. I didn't try hard acceleration after depletion but took it home for a 12 amp overnight. Today I took it for a country drive & it delivered 11.2 Kwh. and hard acceleration afterward did not produce a PPR.

Obviously the full depletion recharges fully exercise the battery and I believe that the Higher charge rate tends to revitalize the cells. The only way to increase charge current into a battery is to increase applied voltage because the battery looks like a big resistor to the applied voltage. The higher voltage has the effect of cell equalization. This is used in stationary battery systems (Telecom) to maintain the health of the batteries. So, I will never recharge at 9 amps again.
 

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I wish I could charge at anything lower than 12A (120V). This EVSE I got from eBay has no buttons on it, and my 2012 doesn’t have the screen where you can choose charge amperage.

So my garage heats up like a space heater on Hi while I’m trying to work on projects during the summer…
 
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