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Green Hydrogen: The Solution for Dirty Diggers?!

1252 Views 16 Replies 11 Participants Last post by  wssix99
This was a very interesting video pointing out where there can be a solution when batteries are not practical for several reasons.

Green Hydrogen: The Solution for Dirty Diggers?!

What happens if you can't get a battery big enough or don't have access to charging infrastructure? JCB has been investigating hydrogen combustion and hydrogen fuel cell technologies for the iconic backhoe loader. The question is, is hydrogen combustion a truly sustainable and workable solution to clean up these dirty diggers? We sent Robert and Helen to find out!
Timestamps:
00:00 Any excuse to play in a digger
01:10 Hydrogen Combustion?!
05:07 We went to the factory
08:30 Refuelling?
10:44 How does it work?
13:18 How efficient is it?
16:30 Hydrogen Infrastructure
18:24 What did Robert and Helen think?
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I thought that was Adam Savage with a British accent haha
Thank for the post

the low H to air hydrogen combustion was interesting.
 
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A lot to like as far as the cleanliness of H. I would bet the motor life would be really long and the power just as good as diesel. That IS amazing about the air/fuel ratio.

It still to me seems like expensive science project stuff as they have not worked out the whole production/distribution model (chicken-egg). We are killing a business model of diesel that is quite mature and was quite cost effective until powers to be threw as many stumbling blocks in it's way as they could and thus drove up the price. Russia is banking many Rubles (and other currencies other than the Petro-Dollar) thanks to the intentional sabotage of the Western governments. The BRICS countries are laughing behind our backs. There is a great re-alignment of power taking place.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
16:30 Hydrogen Infrastructure
It still to me seems like expensive science project stuff as they have not worked out the whole production/distribution model (chicken-egg).
The infrastructure part of the video was quite interesting because of the possibility of generating it locally (vs diesel). Source of diesel, transportation of diesel, who's earning the profit of diesel etc come into play in many peoples mind. Obviously, having hydro or solar panels or wind to help produce it.
 

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If the hydrogen is made from fossil fuel, I'm not sure about the benefits. If the hydrogen is made from wind/solar splitting water, it's a different story.
 

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If the hydrogen is made from fossil fuel, I'm not sure about the benefits. If the hydrogen is made from wind/solar splitting water, it's a different story.
whats called “green hydrogen” uses the electrolysis process and require’s a huge amount of power. So siting a green hydrogen production facility alongside large wind or solar power farm. Still a lot of unknown factors including net real cost per mile of movement In hydrogen fueled vehicles.
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
whats called “green hydrogen” uses the electrolysis process and require’s a huge amount of power. So siting a green hydrogen production facility alongside large wind or solar power farm. Still a lot of unknown factors including net real cost per mile of movement In hydrogen fueled vehicles.
For those that watched the video it is not about vehicles that travel 'miles'
but the amount of work they do (buckets, backhoe, etc.) and how many hours a day they run (20 - 22 IIRC from the vid).
The video talked about how batteries (kWh size) would not work for the required energy as well as the constantly running multi-shift usage.
 

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Porsche is looking into hydrogen also.
 

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If the hydrogen is made from fossil fuel, I'm not sure about the benefits. If the hydrogen is made from wind/solar splitting water, it's a different story.
Agreed. One of the key issues with using hydrogen for large-scale heavy transport is storage. It would take huge tanks to store hydrogen at the average interstate truck stop, and it would take a lot of transport to get it there, using more fuel. As a workaround, it's been proposed to transport the hydrogen in the form of ammonia - NH3. There is work on a rapid refining system that could be done on site with low power to separate the hydrogen from the nitrogen in ammonia. If it scales, we may see it as an interim solution.

Of course, there is the question of where the ammonia comes from? And, why not use ammonia as the fuel instead?

Is Ammonia the Ideal Energy Currency?
 

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Of course, there is the question of where the ammonia comes from? And, why not use ammonia as the fuel instead?

Is Ammonia the Ideal Energy Currency?
Usually the issues around ammonia are involved with how highly a) corrosive and b) toxic it is. Honestly, I'd rather just deal with the hydrogen.

How we deal with the fueling will be the same way those things get fueled now. They get visited by a fuel truck if they're on-site for a long time, or from a yard tank that gets filled from a fuel truck if they get hauled out to different sites regularly. How long the "on-site for a long time" is may change to a shorter period if hydrogen fueling happens, but it's not anything new in terms of process.
 

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I can see the next tick to challenge.adding bleach to the ammonia car.


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Nothing bad has ever happened with Hydrogen, but...



I do think its unrealistic to think that it can be contained on a construction site or a car. NASA spends $30B on a rocket and it takes them months to chase down all their hydrogen leaks. JCB and others may be able to send a tight vehicle out of the factory, but any leak in the field is a potential disaster.

There are some exciting developments coming wth biodisel generation that should tide us over until the next genteration of batteries come along.
 

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NASA spends $30B on a rocket and it takes them months to chase down all their hydrogen leaks.
The hydrogen molecule is so small, normal leakproof fittings aren't. It's one reason SpaceX avoided using hydrogen as a fuel. Too many potential leak issues.
 

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Agreed. One of the key issues with using hydrogen for large-scale heavy transport is storage. It would take huge tanks to store hydrogen at the average interstate truck stop, and it would take a lot of transport to get it there, using more fuel. As a workaround, it's been proposed to transport the hydrogen in the form of ammonia - NH3. There is work on a rapid refining system that could be done on site with low power to separate the hydrogen from the nitrogen in ammonia. If it scales, we may see it as an interim solution.

Of course, there is the question of where the ammonia comes from? And, why not use ammonia as the fuel instead?

Is Ammonia the Ideal Energy Currency?
An ammonia spill would destroy the entire environment in a several mile radius. This occurred south of Colorado Springs several decades ago and that area is still unsafe to live in.
 

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I was stuck in the traffic jam just to the side of this
we were very close under the overpass but has the wind in out favor and the many helicopters may have helped disperse the gas .

but

at least a H2 leak moves upwards.
and
Hindenburg
62 of the 97 passengers and crew survived
 

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The hydrogen molecule is so small, normal leakproof fittings aren't. It's one reason SpaceX avoided using hydrogen as a fuel. Too many potential leak issues.
Yea. A wrinkle in a seal smaller than a hair can cause a dangerous leak. (If I remember correctly, the hydrogen fueling stations for vehicles all leak but have detectors to cut things off if the enviornment gets too explosive.)

I wonder what the plan is for servicing a hydrogen-fueled consumer vehicle? Would we have to take the thing to a dealer with a clean room and gas sniffers to have them safetly serviced?
 
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