Jason M. Hendler· Registered
...after 160,000 miles.
Statik,...after 160,000 miles.
And you get 150,000 mile warranty on it in California & East Coast, 100,000 for the rest of the world. If your curious it is $2895 to replace the battery pack (actually 14 smaller batteries in a pack).
What's the expected failure range for the Volt? 150,000
Is Gm going to give out a 150,000 mile warranty on their pack? Maybe...but maybe not
What is the cost to replace out the pack at your local Chevy dealership? Hrm...scary as heck.
/nothing last forever
Dude, you are too damn funny. How is it genius that the complete collapse of the batteries ends up having no impact on the vehicle's performance?However, humoring Hendler and presuming that NiMH battery life is an issue, the HSD design turns out to be a stroke of genius as the bottom line on the Prius the government tested is that, after losing a significant chunk of battery life, fuel economy is almost identical with the vehicle when new.
I understand the concept of a failsafe vehicle with a "limp-home mode", but this is indicative of a much more serious problem - there was NO performance difference when 61% of the battery capacity was gone.It is engineering genius to build a car that allows for the degradation of the part and still operates the way the customer expects it to operate.
If the performance doesn't degrade, then adding additional batteries to this configuration won't make it improve.They still got a hybrid car out ahead of everybody else (including Honda, in JDM) with remarkable fuel economy that doesn't degrade.
I suspect that the Toyota's range is the result of using an engine that uses the Atkinson cycle - very efficient, like a normal 2 stroke - great efficiency, so-so performance. I still suspect their EV components aren't doing much.Bill Maher is wrong; the Prius' fuel economy is remarkable, even considering the size of the car. The closest competitor is probably Toyota's own Yaris, which is considerably smaller, inside and out, and still doesn't come withing 20% of the Prius' highway economy or 30% of the Prius' city economy.
As I stated above, if degraded batteries don't hurt the performance, then more batteries aren't going to help. Something else is at work here. Their current config goes a mile or two below 30 mph, so it is a system design problem, not a component problem.And, if they feel that they've tapped out the capability of NiMH, Toyota can still buy any battery they like today or whenever the one they like becomes available, to get the Prius to perform better. That is why Toyota CAN turn the Prius into a plug-in vehicle that hits highway speed on electric. They may not build a Prius with the EV range of the Volt but if it has 20 miles, who's to say no one will want that? 20 miles would take care of most of my driving.
Yes, NiMH's are getting better, but I suspect that the Prius parallel hybrid design is not. You can't slap more batteries into that thing and suddenly go highway speeds for 20+ miles.And the current NiMH is probably far better than the 1997 battery, anyway, and it's likely the one in use by all the happy Rav4-EV owners. Remember them?
There's what should be a humbling thought for GM... the best EV on the road today is a 2001 Toyota Rav4-EV.
Fair enough.I think the Prius is an excellent design and has given the rest of the world confidence that 1) HEVs work and 2) People will buy them in large volumes. The Prius will go down in history as a game changer.
Not by a long shot.End of story.
I think you are missing the point of my previous posts. I don't think the battery tech has much to do with the excellent mileage of the Prius. I think it is 99% due to the highly efficient 2 stroke Atkinson cycle engine. Simply adding batteries to the current Prius system design will do little or nothing to improve mileage - their parallel hybrid scheme won't give you very good all electric range / performance.New story is that the new Prius plug-in will use lithium-ion battery technology. Japan has the most active lithium-ion battery research and development in the world:
I agree with all that. All I am saying is now I understand why Toyota tried to throw turds at the Volt when the series hybrid approach was announced, because Toyota was caught flat footed. I do believe that Toyota is expert at high quality / low cost products, but I also know it takes them several years to get there. GM is way out in front of them on a series hybrid design. Per my other thread, GM is 2 years ahead of Ford.If you count out Toyota as a worthy competitor in the new electrified world you do so at your own peril. Besides, we want Toyota to come out with electrified cars that compete well with GMs cars. This keeps managers and engineers at both companies working hard and motivates them to keep the channels filled with high quality product in an attempt to be the market leader. This has the effect of keeping the prices down. Win-win for everyone... Even the car companies. When companies are working hard to advance their technology it keeps them in a great position to compete with newer, younger market entries. I'm cheering for all manufactures of electrified vehicles.
I think it is 99% due to the highly efficient 2 stroke Atkinson cycle engine. Simply adding batteries to the current Prius system design will do little or nothing to improve mileage - their parallel hybrid scheme won't give you very good all electric range / performance.
You are right, taking out the batteries will kill the performance of the vehicle, so it appears that you don't need much battery capacity for regenerative braking / launch assist. This is totally insufficient from what's required for all-electric, highway speed driving.I hope you are using hyperbole. There is a simple way of testing your assumption. Take out the battery and run the car using only it's mechanical transmission. I will bet the ranch that the performance will suffer more than 1 percent.
That's exactly what I am wondering. It appears that the Li Ion pack from Hymotion will only allow you to drive ICE free under 25 mph and won't really enhance ICE assisted driving, except when you need a burst of passing speed on long trips where you haven't been breaking much.You can also test your second claim by checking the performance of a converted Prius. Due to the activities of Hymotion and others you should be able to contact plenty of owners with little trouble.
The Prius is a successful design, but now I realize it is almost entirely the result of its Atkinson cycle engine, and little to with the regenerative breaking systems. That is why these "mild hybrid" approaches by GM only provide a couple of mpg's over their standard models.If you are strictly talking about the non-plug-in model then adding too much battery capacity is simply a waste of money and weight. The battery of a HEV is used to 1) store regen energy and 2) provide bursts of power. This is what allows an undersized ICE. If you don't have enough battery capacity for the the two points I mentioned you will suffer in performance of the vehicle. It's true that driving at 65 mgh on a highway with a car that has very good aerodynamics (Prius) requires a very small ICE (around 20 hp). However, If you want to pass someone or have good 0-60 times you need the electric motor with it's correctly sized battery to help out. I guess I don't really understand your arguments. The Prius is a design success. Are you claiming it is not? That it would have the same performance if it only used it's undersized ICE?
Lets explore this for a moment. It is my contention that the new plug-in Prius design will exceed the efficiency of the Volt design during highway driving (assuming the Prius uses the same basic parallel series hybrid design that it uses today)As I've stated before, the Prius is not a vehicle off which Toyota can build a series hybrid vehicle. Toyota may indeed use the Atkinson cycle engine as a range extender, but they must now basically develop an EV from the ground up that can perform on the highway.