GM Volt Forum banner

1 - 20 of 55 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
423 Posts
Not good for Toyota if they are hoping to create a plug in hybrid:

Link
...after 160,000 miles.

And you get 150,000 mile warranty on it in California & East Coast, 100,000 for the rest of the world. If your curious it is $2895 to replace the battery pack (actually 14 smaller batteries in a pack).


What's the expected failure range for the Volt? 150,000
Is Gm going to give out a 150,000 mile warranty on their pack? Maybe...but maybe not
What is the cost to replace out the pack at your local Chevy dealership? Hrm...scary as heck.

/nothing last forever
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,085 Posts
Discussion Starter #3
...after 160,000 miles.

And you get 150,000 mile warranty on it in California & East Coast, 100,000 for the rest of the world. If your curious it is $2895 to replace the battery pack (actually 14 smaller batteries in a pack).


What's the expected failure range for the Volt? 150,000
Is Gm going to give out a 150,000 mile warranty on their pack? Maybe...but maybe not
What is the cost to replace out the pack at your local Chevy dealership? Hrm...scary as heck.

/nothing last forever
Statik,

The Prius battery pack doesn't suddenly drop from 100% to 39% of capacity at mile mark 150,001. More likely, it follows a logorithmic decay, so it probably loses a significant amount of its capacity quickly and levels off towards the 61% decrease. It is disappointing that the government study didn't give numbers for battery capacity at various points along the way, but I wouldn't be surprised if those NiMH's had lost 50% of capacity after 50,000 miles. This tells us why Toyota wasn't able to respond immediately with an alternative to GM's introduction of the Volt. Toyota simply didn't have a battery tech that could hold its capacity for very long.

Also, GM is only expecting a 15% degradation in capacity after 150,000 miles, not 61%, so don't even try to make a comparison.

If all GM has to do at 150,000 miles is replace a battery pack to double the vehicle's life, that is a bargain.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
423 Posts
All Prius testing was done on 'first gen US Prius' (2000-2002), which has a different pack than the current, which is also not the pack in the new Prius or the Plug-in (obviously). You are comparing 10 year old tech to future 'on paper' tech.


The Prius and the EV-1 where out at the same time. The Prius hit the market featuring the NiMH in 1997, with a smaller upgraded pack in late 99.

GM is so much better at battery tech than Toyota, they decided to feature lead acid batteries at the same time as the Prius. Hows the performance on one of those after like, 10K or 25K miles? I know what it is at 100 -- 0%.

They did manange to spit out 200 with a NiMH (after not being able to figure out how to retrofit them in for 6 months) a couple years later, (and after the lead ones where catching fire because of the charge port).

Then they decided to scrap them all and crumple them into little balls...kinda hard to long term test those. I'm sure they did it because they were so perfect at it they wanted to horde all the technology to themselves until the Volt came to market 13 years later.

"Not good for Toyota if they are hoping to create a plug in hybrid"-- clearly they shouldn't be as the battery pack they developed in 1998 demonstrates their lack of understanding in 2011...and GM is clearly a innovater in battery tech.

I'll let you have the last word, because I know copitulation is impossible on the internet.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,085 Posts
Discussion Starter #5
GM did learn their lesson on the EV1, as they opted to bypass both lead-acid and NiMH for a Li-Ion chemistry that doesn't catch fire.

We are not talking about GM here. We are talking about Toyota's dead-end approach of a parallel hybrid vehicle with NiMH batteries that doesn't allow a simple path to becoming a plug-in hybrid with significant all electric range and performance.

The point is that Toyota could easily add a plug-in capability to their existing Prius's, but then everyone would see that it's charge capacity nosedives with use.
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
968 Posts
There's still quite a few Rav4-EVs in daily use. If Toyota had serious problems with battery life, it would affect those vehicles most severely (they would lose much of their range). I occasionally check in at EVNut.com and the Rav4-EV community seems perfectly happy with their cars. I expect Statik is right - the older Prius uses an older battery.

However, humoring Hendler and presuming that NiMH battery life is an issue, the HSD design turns out to be a stroke of genius as the bottom line on the Prius the government tested is that, after losing a significant chunk of battery life, fuel economy is almost identical with the vehicle when new.

GM is going to have its hands full fending off the Prius. Toyota can get the same battery technology as GM, whenever it's ready, and they are ready with the wheels, body and drivetrain. HSD is very flexible, if you want a verhicle that has different performance/range/economy characteristics, you can just change the size of the battery, engine (in addition to the 1.5 and 2.4, the 1.8 debuts in the Fall) or electric motor (and add a plug, if conditions warrant).

The battery is an issue for GM and only for GM because GM promised a car with characteristics that could not be satisfied by any existing battery. For HSD, incremental changess can be applied and with little risk.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,085 Posts
Discussion Starter #7
However, humoring Hendler and presuming that NiMH battery life is an issue, the HSD design turns out to be a stroke of genius as the bottom line on the Prius the government tested is that, after losing a significant chunk of battery life, fuel economy is almost identical with the vehicle when new.
Dude, you are too damn funny. How is it genius that the complete collapse of the batteries ends up having no impact on the vehicle's performance?

As Bill Maher stated, the Prius gets good mileage mostly because it is just a small, low-performance car. The lack of an effect of the batteries having 39% capacity must mean either:

1) the regenerative braking system and low speed all electric range doesn't contribute much to gas mileage

2) Toyota KNEW NiMH battery capacity severely degrades, so they designed in more than 2.5X the batteries required

3) all of the above

What this reveals, is why Toyota CAN'T turn the Prius into a plug-in, all electric highway speed vehicle. The contribution of the electric systems is now very suspect.
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
968 Posts
It is engineering genius to build a car that allows for the degradation of the part and still operates the way the customer expects it to operate.

They still got a hybrid car out ahead of everybody else (including Honda, in JDM) with remarkable fuel economy that doesn't degrade.

Bill Maher is wrong; the Prius' fuel economy is remarkable, even considering the size of the car. The closest competitor is probably Toyota's own Yaris, which is considerably smaller, inside and out, and still doesn't come withing 20% of the Prius' highway economy or 30% of the Prius' city economy.

And, if they feel that they've tapped out the capability of NiMH, Toyota can still buy any battery they like today or whenever the one they like becomes available, to get the Prius to perform better. That is why Toyota CAN turn the Prius into a plug-in vehicle that hits highway speed on electric. They may not build a Prius with the EV range of the Volt but if it has 20 miles, who's to say no one will want that? 20 miles would take care of most of my driving.

And the current NiMH is probably far better than the 1997 battery, anyway, and it's likely the one in use by all the happy Rav4-EV owners. Remember them?

There's what should be a humbling thought for GM... the best EV on the road today is a 2001 Toyota Rav4-EV.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,085 Posts
Discussion Starter #9
It is engineering genius to build a car that allows for the degradation of the part and still operates the way the customer expects it to operate.
I understand the concept of a failsafe vehicle with a "limp-home mode", but this is indicative of a much more serious problem - there was NO performance difference when 61% of the battery capacity was gone.

They still got a hybrid car out ahead of everybody else (including Honda, in JDM) with remarkable fuel economy that doesn't degrade.
If the performance doesn't degrade, then adding additional batteries to this configuration won't make it improve.

Bill Maher is wrong; the Prius' fuel economy is remarkable, even considering the size of the car. The closest competitor is probably Toyota's own Yaris, which is considerably smaller, inside and out, and still doesn't come withing 20% of the Prius' highway economy or 30% of the Prius' city economy.
I suspect that the Toyota's range is the result of using an engine that uses the Atkinson cycle - very efficient, like a normal 2 stroke - great efficiency, so-so performance. I still suspect their EV components aren't doing much.

And, if they feel that they've tapped out the capability of NiMH, Toyota can still buy any battery they like today or whenever the one they like becomes available, to get the Prius to perform better. That is why Toyota CAN turn the Prius into a plug-in vehicle that hits highway speed on electric. They may not build a Prius with the EV range of the Volt but if it has 20 miles, who's to say no one will want that? 20 miles would take care of most of my driving.
As I stated above, if degraded batteries don't hurt the performance, then more batteries aren't going to help. Something else is at work here. Their current config goes a mile or two below 30 mph, so it is a system design problem, not a component problem.

And the current NiMH is probably far better than the 1997 battery, anyway, and it's likely the one in use by all the happy Rav4-EV owners. Remember them?

There's what should be a humbling thought for GM... the best EV on the road today is a 2001 Toyota Rav4-EV.
Yes, NiMH's are getting better, but I suspect that the Prius parallel hybrid design is not. You can't slap more batteries into that thing and suddenly go highway speeds for 20+ miles.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,085 Posts
Discussion Starter #10
I am starting to think that the EV components on the Prius are just props around an Atkinson Cycle engine that was otherwise too poor performing for American's to buy. I think the EV components may simply move a little energy around to improve the performance of an extremely efficient ICE, without truly increasing mileage themselves.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atkinson_cycle
 

·
Senior Member
Joined
·
3,689 Posts
I think the Prius is an excellent design and has given the rest of the world confidence that 1) HEVs work and 2) People will buy them in large volumes. The Prius will go down in history as a game changer. End of story.

New story is that the new Prius plug-in will use lithium-ion battery technology. Japan has the most active lithium-ion battery research and development in the world:

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601101&sid=aCHIecOjRDRs&refer=japan

http://www.industryweek.com/ReadArticle.aspx?ArticleID=14123

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0EIN/is_2002_Oct_3/ai_92383699


If you count out Toyota as a worthy competitor in the new electrified world you do so at your own peril. Besides, we want Toyota to come out with electrified cars that compete well with GMs cars. This keeps managers and engineers at both companies working hard and motivates them to keep the channels filled with high quality product in an attempt to be the market leader. This has the effect of keeping the prices down. Win-win for everyone... Even the car companies. When companies are working hard to advance their technology it keeps them in a great position to compete with newer, younger market entries. I'm cheering for all manufactures of electrified vehicles.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,085 Posts
Discussion Starter #12
I think the Prius is an excellent design and has given the rest of the world confidence that 1) HEVs work and 2) People will buy them in large volumes. The Prius will go down in history as a game changer.
Fair enough.

End of story.
Not by a long shot.

New story is that the new Prius plug-in will use lithium-ion battery technology. Japan has the most active lithium-ion battery research and development in the world:

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601101&sid=aCHIecOjRDRs&refer=japan

http://www.industryweek.com/ReadArticle.aspx?ArticleID=14123

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0EIN/is_2002_Oct_3/ai_92383699
I think you are missing the point of my previous posts. I don't think the battery tech has much to do with the excellent mileage of the Prius. I think it is 99% due to the highly efficient 2 stroke Atkinson cycle engine. Simply adding batteries to the current Prius system design will do little or nothing to improve mileage - their parallel hybrid scheme won't give you very good all electric range / performance.

If you count out Toyota as a worthy competitor in the new electrified world you do so at your own peril. Besides, we want Toyota to come out with electrified cars that compete well with GMs cars. This keeps managers and engineers at both companies working hard and motivates them to keep the channels filled with high quality product in an attempt to be the market leader. This has the effect of keeping the prices down. Win-win for everyone... Even the car companies. When companies are working hard to advance their technology it keeps them in a great position to compete with newer, younger market entries. I'm cheering for all manufactures of electrified vehicles.
I agree with all that. All I am saying is now I understand why Toyota tried to throw turds at the Volt when the series hybrid approach was announced, because Toyota was caught flat footed. I do believe that Toyota is expert at high quality / low cost products, but I also know it takes them several years to get there. GM is way out in front of them on a series hybrid design. Per my other thread, GM is 2 years ahead of Ford.
 

·
Senior Member
Joined
·
3,689 Posts
I think it is 99% due to the highly efficient 2 stroke Atkinson cycle engine. Simply adding batteries to the current Prius system design will do little or nothing to improve mileage - their parallel hybrid scheme won't give you very good all electric range / performance.

I hope you are using hyperbole. There is a simple way of testing your assumption. Take out the battery and run the car using only it's mechanical transmission. I will bet the ranch that the performance will suffer more than 1 percent.

You can also test your second claim by checking the performance of a converted Prius. Due to the activities of Hymotion and others you should be able to contact plenty of owners with little trouble.

If you are strictly talking about the non-plug-in model then adding too much battery capacity is simply a waste of money and weight. The battery of a HEV is used to 1) store regen energy and 2) provide bursts of power. This is what allows an undersized ICE. If you don't have enough battery capacity for the the two points I mentioned you will suffer in performance of the vehicle. It's true that driving at 65 mgh on a highway with a car that has very good aerodynamics (Prius) requires a very small ICE (around 20 hp). However, If you want to pass someone or have good 0-60 times you need the electric motor with it's correctly sized battery to help out. I guess I don't really understand your arguments. The Prius is a design success. Are you claiming it is not? That it would have the same performance if it only used it's undersized ICE?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,085 Posts
Discussion Starter #14
I hope you are using hyperbole. There is a simple way of testing your assumption. Take out the battery and run the car using only it's mechanical transmission. I will bet the ranch that the performance will suffer more than 1 percent.
You are right, taking out the batteries will kill the performance of the vehicle, so it appears that you don't need much battery capacity for regenerative braking / launch assist. This is totally insufficient from what's required for all-electric, highway speed driving.

You can also test your second claim by checking the performance of a converted Prius. Due to the activities of Hymotion and others you should be able to contact plenty of owners with little trouble.
That's exactly what I am wondering. It appears that the Li Ion pack from Hymotion will only allow you to drive ICE free under 25 mph and won't really enhance ICE assisted driving, except when you need a burst of passing speed on long trips where you haven't been breaking much.

If you are strictly talking about the non-plug-in model then adding too much battery capacity is simply a waste of money and weight. The battery of a HEV is used to 1) store regen energy and 2) provide bursts of power. This is what allows an undersized ICE. If you don't have enough battery capacity for the the two points I mentioned you will suffer in performance of the vehicle. It's true that driving at 65 mgh on a highway with a car that has very good aerodynamics (Prius) requires a very small ICE (around 20 hp). However, If you want to pass someone or have good 0-60 times you need the electric motor with it's correctly sized battery to help out. I guess I don't really understand your arguments. The Prius is a design success. Are you claiming it is not? That it would have the same performance if it only used it's undersized ICE?
The Prius is a successful design, but now I realize it is almost entirely the result of its Atkinson cycle engine, and little to with the regenerative breaking systems. That is why these "mild hybrid" approaches by GM only provide a couple of mpg's over their standard models.

As I've stated before, the Prius is not a vehicle off which Toyota can build a series hybrid vehicle. Toyota may indeed use the Atkinson cycle engine as a range extender, but they must now basically develop an EV from the ground up that can perform on the highway.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
350 Posts
Jason M. Hendler wrote: I am starting to think that the EV components on the Prius are just props around an Atkinson Cycle engine...
Yes, there is a truth in it. Look at the Honda Insight. It used all kinds of mileage extending tricks: extensive use of aluminum and plastic (less than 2000 lbs), coda tronca wind-cheating shape, rear wheel skirt, small lean-burn gas engine, low rolling resistance tires... so much so that we do not know which is the major contributing factor for the 70+ mpg. Think of the electric power booster of parallel hybrid as green turbo. It does save gas. In the case of Prius I think the smallish Atkinson cycle engine and idling stop are the major gas saving factor even though it carries around the extra weight of battery pack and electric motor.

Texas, I agree with you. We should not sneeze at Toyota/Panasonic alliance. At least they have an enormous fund to pour into the R&D. Notice they have been suspiciously quiet about the Li-ion cells. Panasonic is one of the first companies that started manufacturing Li-ion cells for computer and cell phone use (1994). Its first Li-ion cell related patent was applied for in 1980.
 

·
Senior Member
Joined
·
3,689 Posts
As I've stated before, the Prius is not a vehicle off which Toyota can build a series hybrid vehicle. Toyota may indeed use the Atkinson cycle engine as a range extender, but they must now basically develop an EV from the ground up that can perform on the highway.
Lets explore this for a moment. It is my contention that the new plug-in Prius design will exceed the efficiency of the Volt design during highway driving (assuming the Prius uses the same basic parallel series hybrid design that it uses today)

Assumptions:
1) The Prius 3.0 is driving next to the Volt for more than 200 miles. This will bring both cars down to full battery depletion and thus we can evaluate the long-term highway driving condition.

2) One driver is in each vehicle with no baggage. Try to keep the situation close to the way Americans drive for most of the time.

3) The Prius electric motor will be improved from 32 mph for V2.0 to 62 mph for V3.0 (Toyota did not say exactly what the higher continuous speed will be but the rumor is 62 mph). Note: this will not make any difference in this calculation but I wanted to put this in because of false information posted prior that the current Prius could only achieve 25 mph in battery electric mode (Prius conversions run up to 32 before the ICE switches on).


I will use the argument that the inherent differences in drivetrain efficiencies can be used to approximate gasoline mileage performance.

Volt 1.0 drivetrain map - highway speeds using above assumptions:

ICE - generator - lithium-ion battery pack - AC motor controller - AC motor drive - mechanical linkages - wheels

.40 X .90 X .90 X .90 X .95 X .90 = 27.2% **Corrected on 20080514 - thanks hvacman**

Prius 3.0 drivetrain map - highway speeds using above assumptions:

ICE - Continuously Variable Transmission - mechanical linkages - wheels

.40 X .80 X .90 = 28.8%

People can argue the numbers and I welcome any corrections but I hope it's clear that when the battery is at 30% and can no longer provide energy to the wheels that the Volt's motor must run though the mechanical-to-electrical-to-mechanical cycle to keep the wheels running while the Prius will stay in mechanical mode. If the above situation were not the case we would have had low technology serial hybrid cars on the road for many decades. We already have trains and buses that have serial hybrid configurations. Trains use this because the electrical transmission is so powerful for it's weight and has maximum torque at 0 mph and also huge locomotive mechanical transmissions are not as reliable as the simple electric motor. This lowers maintenance costs.

Of course we will have to wait until the two are compared and compared they will be. It will be a national obsession to see which car performs better. My prediction is that the Volt will out-perform in many ways in the city and in other situations but the Prius will win on the highways (assuming the coefficient of drag for the two vehicles are similar). Time will tell. I am hoping that the two companies (and others) will both have strong products that help the world move away from petroleum burning for personal transportation.
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
968 Posts
"As I've stated before, the Prius is not a vehicle off which Toyota can build a series hybrid vehicle." - Hendler

I'd have to care enough to go back and look but I don't believe you qualified that statement, previously, with "series" hybrid. And why would Toyota bother to build a series hybrid when HSD works, is becoming more inexpensive by the day and is field-proven?

The Prius with Hymotion is limited to 25mph EV because that's all the Prius will do on EV, the motor's not particularly big. But that's the current Prius. Remember, HSD allows you to change the ICE, the electric motor or the battery to suit your needs.

The next Prius, stock, due in MY 2009, will have the capability to do 100km/hr, on the EM only. Add the existing Hymotion to that (Toyota will do it at the factory, of course) and there's a short-range EV. When a bigger battery is available, there's a longer-range EV.

The Atkinson is a critical part of the equation. It's more efficient but it offers less power. HSD to the rescue; combine the ICE and EM when you need maximum power. Toyota could have brought the thing out with a regular Otto cycle but they didn't miss a trick, did they?

By the way, Hendler, you haven't explained how it is that all those Rav4-EV owners can remain happy with their vehicles if the battery degrades so dramatically. EV performance will certainly degrade with the battery, there's no relying on the ICE to take up the slack. Apparently, Toyota has learned a few new tricks since 1997.

As for Toyota throwing turds... at what? GM has no hybrid product which they successfully sell. Toyota sells 20K Priuses per month. As for GM being 2 years ahead of Ford... with what? Ford has product on the road, since 2005, with many satisfied customers. GM leads only in overpaid, underperforming execs and PR stunts.
 

·
Senior Member
Joined
·
3,689 Posts
Toyota salesman says stampede to Prius makes for the best of times

"Portland shoppers are flocking to the car with the best fuel efficiency Tuesday, May 13, 2008 STEVE WOODWARD The Oregonian Staff It is the best of times. For a Toyota Prius salesperson.

When customers walk into Ron Tonkin Toyota Scion on Southeast 122nd Avenue, the first question most ask salesman Mark Knudsen is: "What gets the best mileage?"

That's easy. It's the Prius, a hybrid electric-gasoline car that outsells all other hybrid cars in the United States combined.

The Prius gets about 46 miles per gallon -- 550 miles on a single tank of gas, which at Monday's AAA price estimate in the Portland area amounts to $44.28.

"I have only happy customers with Priuses," Knudsen declares.

Knudsen is happy, too. He's selling not only Priuses, but also other low-mileage cars such as Toyota's Yaris, Matrix and Camry.

Armed with degrees in architecture and history, plus 20 years in the food-and-beverage industry, Knudsen began selling Toyotas in 2000, just four months after the Prius was introduced to the United States.

"It's taken a while for the public to embrace the technology," he says.

But in the past couple of months, as oil and gasoline prices exploded like gushers, consumers are trading in their big cars, SUVs and trucks for gas sippers.

"We're seeing anybody driving a V-8," Knudsen says one recent evening during a lull in the action. "They're not very happy spending $100 filling up their car."

Josh Leader, the dealership's new-car sales manager, echoes other dealers in metropolitan Portland who say they can't keep Priuses in stock. The waiting list is three months long.

"Sales are going through the roof," Leader says, "and through the other roof that hasn't even been built yet."

At Gresham Toyota, Ken Hodgdon, the general sales manager, says sales have surged in the past 30 to 45 days.

"We're selling them as fast as they hit the ground," Hodgdon says of the dealership's monthly allotment of 25 to 30 Priuses.

Many gas-gulping trade-ins end up at auction houses, which sell ever-growing numbers of high-mileage vehicles to dealers for ever decreasing prices.

Knudsen, 47, a Northeast Portland car lover, owns a high-performance Toyota Supra, a model the company discontinued in 1999. But many prefer the status that Prius enjoys as an environmental icon.

Knudsen says the good news is that more Priuses are always on their way. The bad news is that they're usually sold before they're even unloaded.

"People have waited up to a year for this car," he says.

The bottleneck lies at Toyota's battery-making plants, which have been slow turning out batteries for the Prius and Toyota's other hybrids, Camry and Highlander. To make matters worse, every time gas prices rise, Knudsen says, more Prius shoppers make the pilgrimage to the dealership.

Knudsen can show them only one car on the lot: a silver demonstration car outfitted with a top-of-the-line package of accessories.

He's had several offers to buy the demo. It's not for sale"



http://www.oregonlive.com/living/oregonian/index.ssf?/base/living/1210634729129740.xml&coll=7
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,085 Posts
Discussion Starter #19
dagwood,

The point of a series hybrid is to drive without using ANY petroleum. A parallel hybrid still requires the use of petroleum. You only have to view GM's presentation to understand the impact on petroleum consumption between driving series and parallel hybrids:

GM Product Plan

BTW, 62 mph isn't going to cut it for highway driving, when the speed limit is 65 / 70 mph and everyone else is driving 75+ mph.

Moreover, as you can see from GM's product plan, the series hybrid makes a simple stepping stone to the fuel cell vehicle, whereas the parallel hybrid vehicle does not.

Certainly, Toyota can create a series hybrid, they just can't use what they've done with the Prius, so they are starting from scratch.
 
1 - 20 of 55 Posts
Top