[Eevee]

Spoke with the dealer about this.

They are adamant that the GM Legal Team has assured them that they are able to sell the car as a previously titled demo/loaner and the purchaser of the demo is eligible for the tax credit.

The IRS code says:

'(d) New qualified plug-in electric drive motor vehicleFor purposes of this section—
(1) In generalThe term “new qualified plug-in electric drive motor vehicle” means a motor vehicle—
(A) the original use of which commences with the taxpayer,
(B) which is acquired for use or lease by the taxpayer and not for resale'

Those two lines seem to conflict with each other. The original use of the vehicle commenced with the dealer placing the car into the service loaner pool. However, the car was acquired for eventual resale because the dealer is selling the loaner car. The dealer has taken the position that 'original use' commenced when it was sold. And they have of course, 'never had issues'.

GM and/or the dealer has already titled the car. They are selling a 'used' title. Semantics aside, has anyone run into this actual situation in real life? The dealer can't produce anything other than 'we see no problems, call the IRS and everyone does this'.

Opinions - massive marketing snafu, or a legitimate gray area?

 

[Steverino]

Was a title issued to the dealer?If the dealer titled the car, it's the first owner. If they had the car on the lot and used it basically for extended test drives (without titling the car), then it's a new car.

Make sure you have them sign any notes on the paperwork that this is being sold as a new car, never previously titled. That should cover you in case it turns out you are the second title.

 

[dsutton01]

Why not ask to see the MSO? If they have it, it's never been titles. If they no longer have it, or if they have an actual title, then the car is ineligible for a federal tax credit.

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk

 

[saltsman]

If they have the Manufacturer's Statement of Origin (MSO) you are good to go. Without it, no tax credit. That's all that matters.

 

[BAZINGA]

And after all of that, they still can't produce the MSO or proof it was never titled yet insist it's new and you are eligible for the tax credit, tell them to drop the price by $7500 and when you get the credit you will refund it back to them.

 

[joezzhou]

How does IRS know?

When one files the tax, does the IRS requires any written proof? If not, how the IRS knows the car is new or used? Do they check the VIN number? The car history?

 

[jeff_h]

When one files the tax, does the IRS requires any written proof? If not, how the IRS knows the car is new or used? Do they check the VIN number? The car history?

The VIN number goes on the IRS form, so if a second person tried to claim the credit using the same VIN it would reject and the second person's credit would be denied.

 

[Eevee]

Was able to locate some additional information.

'For purposes of the 30D credit, a vehicle is not considered acquired prior to the time when title to the vehicle passes to the taxpayer under state law'

The dealer can't produce anything other than 'everyone does it'. Asked if it was worth the risk. Thet said the expected value of their exposure was $0. They refused to give a check for the credit and assert 'businesses can't claim the credit' which is just flat dumb.

Bob Johnson in Greece - here is a shout out to you!

 

[firehawk72]

Spoke with the dealer about this.

They are adamant that the GM Legal Team has assured them that they are able to sell the car as a previously titled demo/loaner and the purchaser of the demo is eligible for the tax credit.

The IRS code says:

'(d) New qualified plug-in electric drive motor vehicleFor purposes of this section—
(1) In generalThe term “new qualified plug-in electric drive motor vehicle” means a motor vehicle—
(A) the original use of which commences with the taxpayer,
(B) which is acquired for use or lease by the taxpayer and not for resale'

Those two lines seem to conflict with each other. The original use of the vehicle commenced with the dealer placing the car into the service loaner pool. However, the car was acquired for eventual resale because the dealer is selling the loaner car. The dealer has taken the position that 'original use' commenced when it was sold. And they have of course, 'never had issues'.

GM and/or the dealer has already titled the car. They are selling a 'used' title. Semantics aside, has anyone run into this actual situation in real life? The dealer can't produce anything other than 'we see no problems, call the IRS and everyone does this'.

Opinions - massive marketing snafu, or a legitimate gray area?

This is tricky so I will explain it this way. This car is for sure used, but it sounds like they have surrendered the title which is why there is "No MSO". Most likely this car has NEVER had the tax credit used and would still qualify; however, for peace of mind, UNLESS they produce an MSO, it simply isn't worth the risk! If you can get them to state in writing with the OWNER"S signature< "That if this car is rejected for the tax credit" they will pay you the difference...

If they are unwilling to do this, then well, keep looking

 

[Aseras]

No MSO, No deal. All the paperwork needs to say the car is new. It should have a carfax and autocheck showing it has never been titled. If it's going over state lines, make sure the car is titled directly to the state you live in and not to dealer state and then transferred. That also kills the rebate.

www.maherchevrolet.com is famous for "renting" their volts and taking the credit for their sales. They've been sued by everyone for it, The consumers, the state and the IRS.

Have them put "this car qualifies for the federal tax credit of up to $7,500" on a "we owe".

 

[turboguy327]

Bob Johnson in Greece - here is a shout out to you!

They where my last hope for a competent dealer in Rochester. Hoselton service should be avoided at all costs. Their volt specialist doesn’t know his ass from a hole in the ground. And Doan doesn’t have a volt specialist so they just guess. Doyle does the same thing but their service writers failed middle school so they suck to deal with.

 

[Scarlett1]

Evee- I've gone round and round with Bob Johnson about this a couple of times. Even had one salesman state, IN WRITING, that "your accountant just needs to adjust something on the car's title"!! He didn't reply when I asked him if he was suggesting that someone commit a felony....

I am curious, though, how is Bob Johnson treating the $1700 NYSERDA rebate? If the car is a new car, then it should be eligible for that, right? What are they saying about that as a part of the deal??

Steve

 

[Eevee]

Here is the latest piece found from Fuel Economy.gov which so far - is the only place that defines the 'original use' portion

https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/taxevb.shtml

*The following requirements must also be met for a certified vehicle to qualify:

The original use of the vehicle commences with the taxpayer—it must be a new vehicle.
The vehicle is acquired for use or lease by the taxpayer, and not for resale. (The credit is only available to the original purchaser of a new, qualifying vehicle. If a qualifying vehicle is leased to a consumer, the leasing company may claim the credit.)

 

[Eevee]

Here they are moving the DRAC cars from the new section to the used section. Odd considering the liability was zero.

https://imgur.com/a/MJtgw

 

[saltsman]

This isn't difficult. They have the MSO or they don't. The only reason the MSO would be missing is if it was surrendered to title the car. Even if the dealer never claimed the rebate, a previously titled car is ineligible for the $7,500 rebate with the IRS. Period.

 

[firehawk72]

This isn't difficult. They have the MSO or they don't. The only reason the MSO would be missing is if it was surrendered to title the car. Even if the dealer never claimed the rebate, a previously titled car is ineligible for the $7,500 rebate with the IRS. Period.

This is the one that I am totally unsure about. Yes, we all know what the IRS code says (as we have all read it and are still confused, but it is rather vague in some degrees. My personal bet is that that line is there simply to simplify someone claiming the credit twice and that the IRS uses whether the tax credit has EVER been claimed per VIN, not title. So, I would imagine that some cars being sold this way would get the tax credit BUT most people are simply afraid to even try to claim it because the car is not listed as new.

 

[Eevee]

Here we go-

We have multiple cases open with Chevy. IRS won't discuss until 2017 tax year.

Chevy is still 'looking into it' which is surprising given it has been 7 years...they have zero on file. Strange after the legal team advised the dealer so heavily-_-

Chevy referred to a NYT article about dealers taking credits from early Volt launch that somehow refuted IRS code...I guess?

The sales manager denied the website changed despite screenshots. Chevy cited 'issues' a few months ago may be causing the problem.

Bob Johnson told me to get a lawyer and contact the IRS. They refused an unwind or a reimburse for the credit. 'Zero economic cost' to them.

 

[Eevee]

Article that Chevy is citing:

https://wheels.blogs.nytimes.com/20...ell-used-chevy-volts-without-7500-tax-credit/

Don't fully comprehend how that helps their case.

 

[Eevee]

Started reading some more on state incentives for NYS. The dealer demo seems to 'enter service' when the warranty starts. NYS is currently offering a rebate for electric cars for which demos may qualify for. The rebate program requires that the dealer must certify the car is new in regards to warranty provisions with a written statement to NYS.

Registered dealer loaner vehicles may be eligible for the program under the floor model, test
drive, rollback and unwind provision if the vehicle is coming out of loaner car service and offered
to an eligible consumer for purchase or lease. The original vehicle registration must be in the
dealership’s name. The vehicle must still be considered new by the vehicle manufacturer with
regards to warranty provisions or for the purposes of manufacturer rebates, etc. In addition to
the documentation required for all applications, the following documentation is required: copy of
the original MV-50 from when the dealer purchased the vehicle; copy of the original dealer
registration; copy of the original purchase agreement from the OEM to the dealer, and written
confirmation from the dealership certifying that a) the vehicle is a registered dealer loaner that is
being sold or leased to a consumer and b) the vehicle is still considered new by the vehicle
manufacturer for warranty provisions and for purposes of any existing manufacturer rebates.