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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)


Washington — General Motors Co. and Honda Motor Co. said Tuesday they will jointly develop a next-generation hydrogen fuel cell vehicle for use by both automakers around 2020 — the latest joint effort to reduce costs and commercialize the zero-emission technology...

Read more over at The Detroit News: http://www.detroitnews.com/article/20130702/AUTO0103/307020061#ixzz2XtT4uwpD

Here's Honda's Clarity link (if you haven't been there, yet):

http://automobiles.honda.com/fcx-clarity/

I'm "wait and see" on fuel cells and, at my 'advanced age', I'll bet I never "see" this tech in full operation on this planet, but who knows, all things are possible, they say. GM and Honda working together is a win for both outfits and we consumers, I think!

This, from Bloomberg:

http://www.businessweek.com/news/20...l-cell-alliance-in-renewed-hydrogen-auto-push
 

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Oh fool sells, I can't wait to have one so I can stop by big oil and fill up. Big oil wants fuel cells, so they can sell us H2, I want a Volt or a good BEV, so I can charge it up at home on solar and not pay them so much. Fuel cells, are too fragile and don't last. No thanks I would rather drive gas. Fool sells are the dream of big oil, fill up today and and if you don't drive you'll need to fill up again because the h2 evaporates or leaks out. What a perfect fuel to sell use or loose it's awesome. Wow, and look it has a battery too, isn't that what the proponents of fools sells said, batteries are too expensive, right a $100K fuel cell stack is cheap, and they last less than 50K. $2 dollars a mile not figuring in the cost of fuel or wear and tear, yes they are the answer.

Sorry for the rant fuel cells don't make sense takes too much power to make H2 unless you are big oil, and they are a pipe dream no thanks. Electric is the only way to go, so you can charge up any where, everyone on the planet can find a plug.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Fool Sells ... ha ... my sentiments, also, Mark. Just what this poor ol' planet needs is the implementation of another brand-new, expensive, infrastructure when every one of our existing infrastructures requires vast infusions of capital just to maintain, let alone improve. Let's follow the money on this one. Big Oil, Big Government, Big Everything ... I'm sick of all of it.
 

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Didn't the Volt come out of GM's research on the E-Flex platform? I believe E-Flex was an extended range electric vehicled that was designed to accept power from different sources such as an ICE or a fuel cell. If true, GM already has a very capable power train, just pull out the ICE out of the Volt and replace it with a fuel cell. The trick is how to get the cost of a fuel cell down to a point where it can be used in a production vehicle. Other problems is storage of hydrogen in the vehicle and the lack of a hydrogen infrastructure.
 

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The oil and gas companies want fuel cells. As far as I know, no one has demonstrated an economic advantage to fuel cells vs grid electricity. Grid electricity that can be sourced from just about anything, hydro, nuclear, coal, wind, geothermal, wave motion, solar voltaic....
 

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Fuel Cells serve only one purpose, and that is zero emission driving. Well, I think we've seen now that the market for this is very small. Its even smaller if people have to pay a big premium for that one feature. They do not offer anything of value beyond that. Tesla has matched the range of a Fuel Cell vehicle with a vehicle that performs better, lasts longer, has more fueling stations already up and running, and costs less money. Why would anyone want a Fuel Cell vehicle?

Oil companies like Fuel Cells for the reasons mentioned by other replies here. But I think they also liked them because they helped take people's focus off of technology that is available today. I was fooled too. back when GW Bush was president, he talked a lot about hydrogen. It made sense to me back then because I didn't know what was possible with BEV or PHEV technology. I remember this speech he gave around 10 years ago saying that a child born today might drive a fuel cell vehicle as their first car. My daughter had just been born a few days earlier. So I thought she would be driving a fuel cell vehicle. Well, now she's 10 years old and it looks very much like she'll be driving some sort of BEV when she turns 16.

I suspect the only reason these companies continue to work on them is due to government research money and carb requirements.
 

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I wonder what happened to the Hummer that the Governator had converted to hydrogen. Got about 7 miles per tank, IIRC.

Might be useful in an indoor parade or something.
 

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The think about tech is that you never say never. It's a good fit because of the EREV strength of GM and the fuel cell strength of Honda. The irony of course is that HFCV uses lithium batteries. But if HFCV tech were cheap enough it'd be in heavy use. Usjng NG of course, but you know that the possibility of practical zero emission would have legislators pushing it. And, since the H would likely be produced at the filling station, the filling station would easily add NG pumps. With more NG pumps come more chance of success with NG vehicles and voila, the old tech still has value (and is much, much cheaoer to buy than an HFCV).

Unfortunately for hydrogen, along comes Crazy Elon and funds construction of a long-range BEV using the cheapest cell format and a charging network for them. And his expensive cars can go 0-60 in under 4 seconds and you can fill them up while you sleep. The cell and battery tech just keeps getting betrer and cheaper. The clock is ticking.
 

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I am glad to see these efforts ongoing. Fuel Cells are not economically viable yet, but progress continues to be made...

There will always be a need for fueled vehicles, whether for large vehicles for freight, or simply for people who live where there cannot be a plug. Someday that fuel will be hydrogen instead of fossil fuels. It is inevitable....
 

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Fuel cells don't necessarily need to run on H2. Solid oxide high temperature cells using natural gas are also being developed.
They've been around for a while, but their down side (besides operating at very high temperatures making material costs go up - not to mention that they rely on platinum as a catalyst) is that they produce more CO2 than an ICE.
 

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I think a hybrid system would work in the short term, since the country lacks any semblance of an H2 infrastructure nor is there an economical method to produce H2 in mass quantities. BMW and Delphi were developing a fuel cell hybrid at one time: the vehicle used a fuel cell to power all auxiliary loads and an ICE only to power the wheels. The car had an on-board reformer to crack gasoline and generate H2 for the fuel cell with all the byproducts being pumped back into the ICE to be burned. It was just super expensive back in the 2000's. Maybe technology will reduce the costs by 2020 to a point where it makes sense.
 

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I think a hybrid system would work in the short term, since the country lacks any semblance of an H2 infrastructure nor is there an economical method to produce H2 in mass quantities. BMW and Delphi were developing a fuel cell hybrid at one time: the vehicle used a fuel cell to power all auxiliary loads and an ICE only to power the wheels. The car had an on-board reformer to crack gasoline and generate H2 for the fuel cell with all the byproducts being pumped back into the ICE to be burned. It was just super expensive back in the 2000's. Maybe technology will reduce the costs by 2020 to a point where it makes sense.
From what I've heard , it probably used twice as much gasoline as a regular car to do the conversion as well .


The problem with this " hopeful technology " is it gets us distracted from what can get accomplished today . We are so close on the EV battery concepts , but some want to dismiss EV and battery tech for things that may never develop .
 
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