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Discussion Starter #1
As the initial stage of GM's "Project Driveway", two fuel cell Equinox's were delivered to a couple of volunteers:

Link

GM is pushing forward on all fronts, and other automakers are scrambling to catch up. Honda will have their fuel cell vehicles on the roads soon. Nissan, Jaguar / Land Rover and now Chrysler have announced plans to develop REEV's.

Tsk, tsk, Toyota is only looking to make insignificant changes to their Prius. The powers that be at Toyota need to launch their current CEO and find one that will actually develop an REEV that can travel highway speeds (65 - 80 mph) in purely EV mode.
 

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I don't know what Toyota is up to, but I would not under estimate their goal. Well just have to wait and see what up with Toyota's sleeves. I do hope GM recover from their loss and thrives, but I would not want to see Toyota end up trouble with money like GM.
 

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I don't know what Toyota is up to, but I would not under estimate their goal. Well just have to wait and see what up with Toyota's sleeves. I do hope GM recover from their loss and thrives, but I would not want to see Toyota end up trouble with money like GM.
Toyota is now involved in cost cutting measures. It's easy to manage a company when growth is good, etc., but now the visionless Watanabe is going to be exposed as imcompetent in the economic downturn caused by high fuel prices and the inflation that causes:

Link

I should start a clock based on GM's announcement of the Chevy Volt, to time how long it takes Watanabe to pursue an REEV.
 

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The last link you posted sure made me think a little more. I think he needed to be retire or have some one take it place and keep an eye on the company. He may also see problem of the cost to built the car. He is aware of is the environment and energy issue. He have said "Toyota has been regarded as strong in environmental technologies due to its hybrid vehicles. But hybrid vehicles are increasingly seen as commonplace. So we have to develop more advanced products and introduce them to consumers." From what it had said. It better not under estimate their view.

It a good idea about the "clock base on GM announcement of the Chevy volt" It may help motivate GM's competitor.
 

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Discussion Starter #5
The last link you posted sure made me think a little more. I think he needed to be retire or have some one take it place and keep an eye on the company. He may also see problem of the cost to built the car. He is aware of is the environment and energy issue. He have said "Toyota has been regarded as strong in environmental technologies due to its hybrid vehicles. But hybrid vehicles are increasingly seen as commonplace. So we have to develop more advanced products and introduce them to consumers." From what it had said. It better not under estimate their view.

It a good idea about the "clock base on GM announcement of the Chevy volt" It may help motivate GM's competitor.
Yes, it is clear now that CEO Watanabe of Toyota was the inheretor of a growing company, not the visionary leader. Those with stock in Toyota had better be worried.

I will use this article as the clock start date for Toyota's lack of vision regarding REEV's:

Link

It has been 487 days since GM announced the Chevy Volt for the Detroit Auto show - when is Toyota going to announce its REEV, EV or fuel cell vehicle?
 

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There is also a hydrogen fueling station here in Oakland, CA that was put in by Chevron and powers some experimental city buses here. I've seen the pump station and it's quite nice and easy to use. I don't know if the industry has developed standard couplings yet though, so I'm not sure if the Equinoxes can plug in or not. Also they are not set up over at the bus yard to collect money, so I guess it would have to be some sort of credit system. They should give one to me and I'll find out!:D
 

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Hydrogen refueling station

Shell in putting in a hydrogen refueling station here in Santa Monica, CA at Federal Ave. and Santa Monica Blvd. It has the hydrogen generator on it's roof. It looks like it's using steam reforming to separate the hydrogen from the gasoline they have on site. When it opens I plan on asking them how it works. What ever the method, it's likely to expel plenty of CO2 in the process. I wonder if that neighborhood knows that their atmosphere is about to change for the worst?
We need to remember that you have to make hydrogen and that uses a lot of electricity and or hydrocarbon. It takes 4 time the electricity to go each mile with a hydrogen fuel cell car than a battery electric car.
Replacing gasoline with hydrogen is just a bad magic trick. A distraction from battery electric power.
GM is just playing nicely with Shell so Shell can think that they will still have something to sell us after we stop using gas.
They all know that we the public just might figure out that we can make our own electricity from the sun to run our cars. And then what would they do?
You can't hide from technology.
Or the truth.
 

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Shell in putting in a hydrogen refueling station here in Santa Monica, CA at Federal Ave. and Santa Monica Blvd. It has the hydrogen generator on it's roof. It looks like it's using steam reforming to separate the hydrogen from the gasoline they have on site. When it opens I plan on asking them how it works. What ever the method, it's likely to expel plenty of CO2 in the process. I wonder if that neighborhood knows that their atmosphere is about to change for the worst?
We need to remember that you have to make hydrogen and that uses a lot of electricity and or hydrocarbon. It takes 4 time the electricity to go each mile with a hydrogen fuel cell car than a battery electric car.
Replacing gasoline with hydrogen is just a bad magic trick. A distraction from battery electric power.
GM is just playing nicely with Shell so Shell can think that they will still have something to sell us after we stop using gas.
They all know that we the public just might figure out that we can make our own electricity from the sun to run our cars. And then what would they do?
You can't hide from technology.
Or the truth.
Thank you Jeff. I try telling the same message but the hydrogen dream will not die. Solar panels on our roofs feeding BEVs is just to simple for some people. I'm sure they will see the light when a) gasoline gets to $10 a gallon and b) when there are still no affordable hydrogen cars on the market. One way or another the BEV and it's helper hybrids are coming to town.
 

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We need to remember that you have to make hydrogen and that uses a lot of electricity and or hydrocarbon.
It takes 4 time the electricity to go each mile with a hydrogen fuel cell car than a battery electric car.
Replacing gasoline with hydrogen is just a bad magic trick. A distraction from battery electric power.
GM is just playing nicely with Shell so Shell can think that they will still have something to sell us after we stop using gas.
They all know that we the public just might figure out that we can make our own electricity from the sun to run our cars. And then what would they do?
You can't hide from technology. Or the truth.
JeffU hit the nail right on the head, the whole 'Fool Cell' thing is an effort by the oil & car comapnies to maintain the status quo.
 

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Discussion Starter #13
Fuel cell tech and air motors are the only rapid recharge approaches for zero emission range extenders in existance. If low emissions range extenders are allowed, then their are plenty of options that use normal gasoline. When rapid recharge batteries become available, and are cheap, then you will have a point. Until then, rapid refill RE's that use petroleum, alcohols, hydrogen or compressed air will be necessary.

You are incorrect about hydrogen generation requiring 4X the electricity. Nanoptek has a solar hydrogen generator that uses sunlight to directly catalyze water to extract the hydrogen:

Link
 

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You still won't let the air car range extender concept go, eh? So, can you please tell us all what the weight of the car you imagine is and what extended range you expect to get. Please. Just those two pieces of info. If you do that I will gladly, using all the calculations done in the other thread, tell you how big your trailer needs to be to hold all of the compressed air tanks.

Can we also keep the discussion to technology that is actually in production? For every super this you bring up I can come up with a super that. You have the super hydrogen generator? Well I got the 10X nanowire super battery. Until these products have working prototypes running in actual vehicles it's all vapor. That last 10 percent of development is where few ideas make it through. They usually die from cost, volume production, competition, etc. issues.

Face the facts. Hydrogen cars are too expensive. More than the EVs ten years ago. Sure they got the EVs out there but they were far more expensive than what customers paid for them (leased cost). Same with Honda's masterpiece. Sure they will get out those 100 or so beauties but they are rumored to cost around $200,000 a piece. Additionally, you cannot overcome the inherent losses that will occur when generating hydrogen. You can minimize them but never eliminate them. BEVs will always be more efficient and less expensive. Always. If I'm wrong I’ll do the boogie on YouTube.
 

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Discussion Starter #15
Texas,

As usual, you are hung up on efficiency numbers, when the critical factor is ZERO emissions. As sure as I am sitting here today, some liberal controlled local or state government is going to mandate a ZERO emissions vehicle, without allowing a REEV / series hybrid alternative. Right now, the easiest, low-tech AND affordable approach for this is an Air Car or EV with Air Motor range extender.

Go to any tire shop, and you will find pneumatic equipment - it is ubiquitous, so people are familiar and comfortable with it. 5 kpsi and 10 kpsi systems are being developed and tested, which will always be cheaper to buy and operate than the equivalent battery approach.
The range and performance will always be lower than the EV's being produced, but for those who just can't pay $35K+ for a 5 passenger EV sedan, the Air Car is viable.
 

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You are incorrect about hydrogen generation requiring 4X the electricity. Nanoptek has a solar hydrogen generator that uses sunlight to directly catalyze water to extract the hydrogen:

Yeh, but why bother making hydrogen just to make a very inefficient, and expensive HFC type of battery work in electric car when you can just charge a simpler and cheaper battery to make the car go.
Besides, Shell isn't going to use the Nanoptek system. Your NOT going to see a solar array on top of a Shell Gas Station. They are going to use gasoline to make hydrogen, believe me. And also, I need water to drink, not to make my car go.
BEVs rule!
Sorry.
 

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Texas,

As usual, you are hung up on efficiency numbers, when the critical factor is ZERO emissions. As sure as I am sitting here today, some liberal controlled local or state government is going to mandate a ZERO emissions vehicle, without allowing a REEV / series hybrid alternative. Right now, the easiest, low-tech AND affordable approach for this is an Air Car or EV with Air Motor range extender.
When it comes to emission standards and reducing output Subura has a line of Partial Zero Emissions Vehicles (PZEV) available now. These have 90% cleaner emissions than average new vehicles. This solution isn't a zero emissions solution but it's getting pretty close without revamping the entire fuel industry. They are using current technology and producing a product that can be used anywhere and purchased at a reasonable price.
 

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Discussion Starter #18
Besides, Shell isn't going to use the Nanoptek system. Your NOT going to see a solar array on top of a Shell Gas Station. They are going to use gasoline to make hydrogen, believe me.
Below is a link to a recently opened solar hydrogen generating fuel station:

Link

Hydrogen stations will wisely use non-petroleum sources of hydrogen, as they understand using foreign petroleum defeats the purpose.
 

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Hydrogen stations will wisely use non-petroleum sources of hydrogen, as they understand using foreign petroleum defeats the purpose.
Nice spin, but the HFC economy doesn't work. It's a big was of electricity no matter how you make it. Also, our tax dollars are being wasted paying to subsidize a technology that is a hugh distraction from the tried and true BEV technology that we can have now. My neighbor is on his 6th year of original NiMH batts in his Toyota RAV4 EV. He has over 140,000 miles on it and only spends money on tires. He charges it with his 5 kilowatt solar array that powers his house. He hasn't bought gas or electricity for 3 years. He now installs solar arrays for homes and business and is making a killing.
 

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Discussion Starter #20
Nice spin, but the HFC economy doesn't work. It's a big was of electricity no matter how you make it. Also, our tax dollars are being wasted paying to subsidize a technology that is a hugh distraction from the tried and true BEV technology that we can have now. My neighbor is on his 6th year of original NiMH batts in his Toyota RAV4 EV. He has over 140,000 miles on it and only spends money on tires. He charges it with his 5 kilowatt solar array that powers his house. He hasn't bought gas or electricity for 3 years. He now installs solar arrays for homes and business and is making a killing.
It's not about pure efficiency / economics, its about rapid refill - no one wants to get stuck with a vehicle while it's charging for 4+ hours.
 
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