[Rashiid Amul]

I think fuel-cell is a waste of time.
GM should put everything they've got into making the VOLT w/ICE the best car they can make. Not waste time now with something that isn't anywhere near ready for prime time. Prime time means: When and where will I be able to fill my car with hydrogen? When and where will the rest of North Americans be able to fill their cars with hydrogen? 10 - 20 years? Who cares? We need this now? In 10 years time, maybe the batteries will be so good and the charging so fast that we don't need the hydrogen at all. Let's spend time perfectly the VOLT w/ICE. Forget about the rest of the "junk science".

 

[OptimisticMF1]

I agree with Rashiid, hydrogen just doesn't make sense. Methane fuel cells on the other hand...imagine a fleet of vehicles fueled by cow farts!

 

[LyleL]

I agree with Rashiid Amul.
Don't do hydrogen until the battery/ICE versions are released. But of course, GM wants to sell cars to China and China is looking/moving into a hydrogen based transportation system.

This also would keep GM in the good graces of the petroleum companies. GM might be saying something like, don't worry petroleum guys, sure we will put out the battery version with an ICE and then move to fuel cell and reduce the size of the battery to minimize plugin storage capacity (wink) (wink) we won't produce an electric only car. Why? so the petroleum companies can still sell the hydrogen gas. Lots of information out there points to better energy efficiencies taking electricity from the grid directly to the batteries, rather than producing and transporting hydrogen. Take the money required for a hydrogen infrastructure and put it into advancing the National power grid. We use electricity now for a multitude of things like Air conditioning (think brownouts in summer). Take the proposed hydrogen infrastructure funds and replace/add high tension power lines and switching centers to support Solar/wind distribution load balancing etc... maybe even throw in some super conducting technology. Put the money where it helps everyone, not just transportation. Yes, there are studies that say the existing grid can support converting a high percentage of existing cars to electric if charged overnight. The point is it would help the country to use that money wisely and improve the grid which benefits everyone.

I won't buy a car with a fuel cell. I would buy photovoltaics to provide power to charge the car and sell the excess to the utilities.

 

[James1]

Car manufacturers may make fuel cell vehicles but, more than likely, hardly anyone will buy them due to the lack of a hydrogen distribution infrastructure. Should car manufacturers make fuel cell vechicles before hydrogen is readly available or should the oil companies make hydrogen available at gas stations first? The oil companies may lose out to electric companies if they don't make hydrogen readly available first. If I were a car manufacturer, I would not be investing heavly in fuel cells until oil companies bite the bullet and setup a hydrogen distribution infrastructure. If I were an oil company, I would be worried about phev's because of their effect on future sales and would start investing heavly in a hydrogen distribution.

 

[Rashiid Amul]

My question is: Why should GM care about the oil companies? The oil companies are responsible for putting a major dent in the automakers profits buy making gasoline so expensive that SUV sales are way down.
I say, GM and other automakers should do whatever they can to make the oil companies obsolete.

On the hydrogen note: I can see where it makes sense to do it in China. I just don't see where it makes sense here in the USA.

 

[AES]

If the two Volt teams are both helping to refine the basic E-Flex architecture (battery integration, drivetrain, etc), then maybe something good will come of this hydrogen nonsense.

re:gas companies, even with heavy PHEV or EV market penetration, the petroleum industry is still going to make a killing selling raw materials for plastics, so buying other energy interests isn't their only escape route.

 

[David1]

Imagine a car powered by hot air? However building pipelines coming out of Washington may just prove too expensive.

 

[OhmExcited]

"Efficiency" is only one of the issues in a bigger, more complex picture. Hydrogen would help:

- Change oil from a strategic commodity to a plain old commodity.
- Reduce emissions in population areas (i.e. smog).
- Reduce noise pollution.
- Allow for zero emission and electrification of larger and longer range vehicles (buses, trucks, towing vehicles, etc).

 

[Nick D]

I understand all of the complaints with hydrogen however i think that people need to look at it deifferently. You have a Hydrogen volt, you drive in town off grid electricity, then you decide to go on a road trip your range extender needs a refill you fill with hyrogen, created by electricity, which in turn creates electricity to drive your car with no harmful emmissions. Yah its not very efficient, but neither is gas. Basically stopping to fill with hydrogen would be like a "quick charge" since the hydrogen was crated using electricity.

To make hydrogen a success we need it to be produced everywhere so that the transport of it does not consume a lot of energy.

I have a feeling that the government will force hydrogen to work, just a matter of time and money. Is it the best solution no, is it better than gas. Yes. The future will most likely be PHEV with hydrogen range extenders, thats the next logical step.

 

[Rashiid Amul]

Nick D. I just don't see it. Maybe if we had 1000's of localities that made hydrogen, then maybe it might work. But how long and difficult of a road is it to get to that point? It would have to be somewhat of an established fact that people will buy the hydrogen before anyone decides to build 1000's of plants, or 100's. But in order to prove that people will buy it, the vehicles will have to exist in bulk. The vehicles won't exist in bulk until there are plenty of places to buy the hydrogen. It's a catch 22. I just don't see hydrogen working in this country. Of course, I could always be wrong. Your thoughts?

 

[OhmExcited]

It would be good for Bob Lutz to talk sometime about GM's plans for hydrogen and e-flex. Are they serious about pushing this and why? Is it solving a problem or meeting a demand? Are they only continuing to talk about it to justify to shareholders the massive investment they've made in it?

Let's hear it, Bob.

 

[Dwayne_Scott]

There is another issue, the cost of the fuel cells. Currently, fuel cells require platinum. I saw an estimate (don’t remember where) that if most of automobiles in the US converted to fuel cells we would use up the worlds supply of platinum inside of two years. So even if hydrogen supply and storage problems are solved, the basic chemistry of fuel cells requires a very expensive and scarce metal – platinum. A lot of effort has been made to reduce the amount needed but so far they are a long way off from making fuel cells cost effective.

 

[NeutronFlux]

Hydrogen is viable & the fifth generation fuel cells bring it close to cost effetiveness especially for countries like ICELand where they are intended, that have almost limitless geothermal energy sources. As far as where Hydrogen comes from it is not via electricity as that is the most inefficent costly process used to MFG it. Most commercially produced Hydrogen comes from reforming natural gas. This in turn keeps the gas companies in business. Currently there is not much surplus in the US supply/demand loop on Natural gas as witnessed by the cost increases in summer due to all the power plants making electricity with their Gas Turbines for peak demand power. There is nothing wrong with investing & improving the Fuel Cell tech in parallel that is what they are doing, it will not impact the Volt delivery and may help speed it up with one guy not tasked to work on both. They have Compressed natural gas refueling stations you can install in your garage now & Honda sells the Civic GX to go with it. Not a big leap to go to garage based reformers to make hydrogen from your natural gas line to refuel at home. The issue there is safety and storage and if enough can be reformed over night to fill your tank at home and compressed into your hydrogen fuel tank in your vehicle. I had thought seriously about buying a GX a few years back to beat the high cost of gas since Natural gas prices are regulated by the PUC and the gas station down the street has no such controls, but with the supply side limited, NIMBY attitude for all those coastal LNG distribution points we pay enough now to make it no longer a cost savings even though the cars burn much cleaner & engines last much longer . Not having well published waivers for exceeding your household allottment of natural gas, after which your bill exponentially increases does not help either. You don't need Hydrogen fueling stations on every corner to get them started especially if they have a range of over 160 miles. Not your car for cross country trips though.

 

[AES]

re: platinum, there are a couple technologies that have claimed to dramatically reduce the amount of platinum by nanostructuring of the catalyst material. Here's one for example: http://www.greencarcongress.com/2007/09/new-plating-met.html

Additionally, if the Volt needs a fuel cell genset with an output of no more than 50-60hp (same power as the ICE genset), that cuts down on cost as well.

A FAR more serious concern for fuel cell technology is the proton exchange membrane that divides each of the cells in half. It's made of organic polymers, and can quite literally be poisoned. Thus, incoming air can't be just run through a regular air filter - it has to be totally cleaned of every last part per million of carbon monoxide. The membrane is also very sensitive to humidity levels, and has a finite lifespan.

 

[OhmExcited]

I suppose those concerns would be addressed with a warranty. GM knows they have to price it right, and they know they have to provide a warranty. Their challenge is not really our problem.

 

[DaveG]

I believe the real problem with fuel cells is that they are meant to deceive us. The oil companies know that fuel cells will never pan out, but they can effectively use the promise of fuel cells to help delay or prevent other solutions from fully taking hold. This is how they managed to kill the California zero emission vehicle mandate.

Now GM appears to be staffing up a full fuel cell development team for a production vehicle. In addition, the chief engineer for the Volt has been reassigned to the fuel cell vehicle. Regardless of what people say about parallel development, I just can’t see how this won’t slow down the Volt production schedule.

Once again, that’s why them call them “FOOL SELLS”.

 

[Majestyc]

We've been told over and over by so many that GM won't produce the Volt.

I know from reading...Popular Science/Mechanics that we're a long way away from Hydrogen, a LONG way. Why on earth would this transfer be happening now?

Unfortunately I'm beginning to think the Volt won't be produced. Someone has some serious explaining to do.

Majestyc

 

[kent_beuchert]

"Unfortunately I’m beginning to think the Volt won’t be produced. Someone has some serious explaining to do."

I'm afraid that your logic makes no sense. The E-Flex has ALWAYS including gasoline, diesel and fuel cell range extenders. Your comments are simply not plausible.