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Discussion Starter #1
GM Boosting Number Of Electric Car Models In China To 20



The stark contrast between GM’s embrace of electric cars in China compared to its mulish refusal to do the same in America is shocking, no pun intended. In the US, it is leading the charge to roll back fuel economy standards so it can continue selling highly profitable light duty pickup trucks and SUVs. “Two faced” is about the kindest thing one can say about GM’s bifurcated priorities. It appears the profits it derives from selling cars to Americans are being used to subsidize its push into the Chinese market.

The result is China will get the crème de la crème of low emissions vehicles while one of America’s largest employers will continue to deliberately poison its customer base in pursuit of profits. That’s the thanks America gets for bailing out The General during the last global economic meltdown. Here’s a note to Mary Barra and the rest of the GM board: “Thanks for nothing, GM.” Signed: American taxpayers.
Mary, I'm VERY disappointed in you. We make fun of Musk's BS 'cuz he's a car manufacturing neophyte. You have no excuses. :mad:
 

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The Chinese government is pulling out all the stops to make EV's move. What's the US doing? Rolling back EPA efficiency standards rather than increasing them, thereby promoting oil interests. Is the Fed tax credit being renewed? Increased?
 

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China first, then USA maybe second. We're just second rate customers now, only good for fleecing out and being poisoned by air emissions from non plug-in big profit trucks and SUV's :( :( :(

It's like our money first then US citizen taxpayers maybe second. Can't blame it, corporates are designed to make as much money the current circumstances allow without regards to anything as long as they can work legally. So they try to dismantle laws that will keep easy profits from flowing, thus lobbying hard to kill the air emission standards here in the US.
 
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The Fed tax credit is for the rich, people who may have the means to buy a new car but don't have the taxed income (an ever increasing number of retired people that have arranged their finances in such a way) are out of luck. Here in Canada there are no federal tax credits. Each province has set it's own rebate set up. In BC it's $5,000 (for EV's including Volt) to $2,500 for other PHEVs (it's dependant on battery size). In addition you get $6,000 for you old car (even if it's a $200 clunker) so long as it has been licenced/insured for the pas six months. This scrap it program is dealt out depending on previous EV car sales. Other provinces have similar rebates except for oil rich Alberta. No catering to the rich. All people considered equal. Don't understand why the US doesn't do something similar.
 

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Discussion Starter #5
The Chinese government is pulling out all the stops to make EV's move. What's the US doing? Rolling back EPA efficiency standards rather than increasing them, thereby promoting oil interests. Is the Fed tax credit being renewed? Increased?
Keeping Our Commitment to an All-Electric Future

Mary Barra said:
At General Motors, we are steadfast in our vision of a world with zero crashes, zero emissions and zero congestion. This morning, I reaffirmed our stance on vehicle efficiency standards with the entire General Motors team. I hope you take the time to read the full letter and join us on our journey:

Team:

As you may know, discussion continues in Washington, D.C. and elsewhere about the efforts to revise current vehicle efficiency standards in the United States. I want to reaffirm General Motors’ position on this important issue as you follow media coverage in the coming days.

Throughout this process, we have been transparent about our priorities for modernizing current rules: General Motors supports establishing one national set of fuel efficiency requirements, with flexibilities that take into consideration recent industry developments such as vehicle sharing and self-driving electric vehicles.

A single, national standard would allow us to focus our resources on innovations that benefit our customers and society as we pursue our vision of a world with zero crashes, zero emissions and zero congestion, instead of diffusing resources to meet different rules within the United States.

Regardless of the outcome of these discussions, I assure you we have an absolute and unwavering commitment to improve fuel economy, reduce emissions and invest in technologies to drive an all-electric future. These are the right actions for our customers, our company and our environment.

In the meantime, while a zero-emissions future will not happen overnight, we are moving aggressively to get there. We are well on our way to introducing 20 new all-electric vehicle models globally by 2023.

Over time, we expect the cost of our electric vehicles will be comparable to those powered by internal combustion engines. Until then, we support and advocate for various government incentives that encourage more consumers to embrace EVs and, of course, the environmental benefits they contribute to our world.

And our zero-emissions journey isn’t limited to EVs: Across 14 recent new-vehicle launches, we’ve trimmed an average of 357 pounds per vehicle, saving 35 million gallons of gasoline and avoiding 312,000 metric tons of CO2 emissions per year.

Climate change is real. We recognize the transportation sector is a contributor, and we must be part of the solution. At General Motors, we take this challenge seriously. It’s a driving force behind our vision of a future with zero crashes, zero emissions and zero congestion.

Our technology, talent and global scale will ensure success in a low-carbon economy as we create a better world for today, and for generations to come. I have complete confidence that this is the team that will deliver on this commitment.

mtb
We are not a communist country. The comparison doesn't work.

If you were breathing the air in a Chinese city you'd have a first-person perspective on what kind of emergency they have on their hands. We're pretty much not in that situation, save for a few cities (several in California, which sells rights to pollute to companies in order to boost tax revenue).

Here leadership has to come from people like Barra. I'm afraid she's laying on the bullsh*t in this letter. 20 new all-electric vehicle models globally by 2023, but only a scant few here, maybe. If she keeps this up she may as well move her office to Beijing.
 

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It's a rebadged Volt. I'm hoping that total world volume sales will provide us with a path to an Gen3 someday.

I like the "EREV" badge...where can I get one.
 

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Mary, I'm VERY disappointed in you. We make fun of Musk's BS 'cuz he's a car manufacturing neophyte. You have no excuses. :mad:
Mary can't change market dynamics in the US or brand biases. How many people refuse to look at Volt because it's a Chevy, despite being one of, if not the best plug-in hybrid available?
 

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Discussion Starter #8
Mary can't change market dynamics in the US or brand biases. How many people refuse to look at Volt because it's a Chevy, despite being one of, if not the best plug-in hybrid available?
Not with the snap of a finger she can't. What she can do is market. I don't think there's been any lack of criticism of GM's marketing efforts - IMO well deserved criticism.

Leadership isn't something that just happens to you. It's taking what you have and where you stand and changing the game.

GM has had a few leaders who understood this. We could probably count them on one hand.
 

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Until forced by the market, government, or given other incentives, GM is going to aim for profits first. Remember the bankruptcy? We all know where that leads: gas trucks. Frankly, I'm surprised they even have the Volt and Bolt given the relatively minuscule numbers sold. It does look like those two are as much a live research project as they are a product offering.

But I too am disappointed there is not more on the plate, sooner.

At the same time, where is the US customer demand? This may be a chicken vs. egg argument in that if GM had EREV SUV's and BEV CUV's more would be interested in buying one. Or it may be that few would buy even if these were available. In China there are buying incentives that don't seem to be expiring. They may some day, but not now.

But even within the small sedan and CUV segments where the Volt and Bolt play, there is not a huge demand. People aren't switching in droves from a Cruise or similar car for example. Market demand plays a role.

Perhaps its the Chevy badge that is holding some back. Maybe a Buick badge would fare better. A premium Cadillac badge could work, but that divsion seems messed up. They can't seem to make a compelling EV to compete against Tesla. Perhaps Musk is right on this point: traditional manufacturers have a mental issue with EV's, they have a hard time embracing them despite best intentions.
 

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Discussion Starter #10
Explain why the Prius or the Leaf does well in the US or European market and you're halfway there. These are not exactly outstanding platforms. Compare them to the Volt or Bolt (as applicable) and they come up short. There's no excuse for why the GM cars aren't seen as better by the general buying public, except that GM has failed to communicate the truth.

If you buy into 'common' perceptions, like the bowtie holds you back, it's you who is holding you back. Corvette, Camaro and Silverado owners would not agree and rightfully so.
 

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I have been very patient with GM and a long time support of GM's electrification efforts. I bought my first Volt in March 2012, followed by a 2013 Volt (I traded in my 2011 CTS-V for it) and owned/operated TWO Volt's side by side for the next 18 months. Finally in Aug 2016 I traded in my 2013 Volt on a 2017 which I still own. So I have owned 3 Volt's since March 2012.

But sadly my patience is wearing thin with GM's promises and lack of enthusiasm. To be honest I'm actively looking at buying a CPO Model S again now that newer/improved MS' are starting to show up on their CPO site. What would make me move today is a low mileage MS75D with AP1 and the NextGen seats. I'm actually working with Brent at the Chicago Store to find me the perfect MS.

GM if your focus is on China, I'm done with you.
 

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And so what happens to GM if suddenly the Chinese decide to "punish" the US in a true "trade war" comes within a year or so? After spending a ton of money bringing these new EV cars and trucks to market in China, then all of a sudden the market goes away?
I am so glad that Tesla is at least doing something that we Americans can be proud of and maybe even afford to buy someday when that $35,000 Model shows up.
I know that Tesla has plans with China as well, but maybe Elon will have the wisdom to tread carefully there. Hey, let's do North America First!!
 

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Discussion Starter #13
And so what happens to GM if suddenly the Chinese decide to "punish" the US in a true "trade war" comes within a year or so? After spending a ton of money bringing these new EV cars and trucks to market in China, then all of a sudden the market goes away?.......
.......I know that Tesla has plans with China as well......
This is where Musk has it over Barra and then some. Musk wants China's SAIC jackboot off of his neck going in (meaning he doesn't want to half-own his company there). He actively pushes for Trump to fix that requirement. How does GM feel about it? Let's ask the South China Morning Post:

GM seems wholly unimpressed by chance to wholly own an electric car factory in China

Asked by reporters whether the company would like to run a fully-owned factory in the mainland, Matt Tsien, president of GM China, avoided answering directly, instead focusing on the benefits of having a local partner.

“We are very pleased with our partnerships,” said Tsien. “Our partners have a huge amount to offer in terms of their understanding of the market and their abilities as well to work with us to make our joint ventures successful.”
This video from 2012 seems to be on point. Note what car model is in the background behind Akerson:

 

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Explain why the Prius or the Leaf does well in the US or European market and you're halfway there. These are not exactly outstanding platforms. Compare them to the Volt or Bolt (as applicable) and they come up short. There's no excuse for why the GM cars aren't seen as better by the general buying public, except that GM has failed to communicate the truth.

If you buy into 'common' perceptions, like the bowtie holds you back, it's you who is holding you back. Corvette, Camaro and Silverado owners would not agree and rightfully so.
There are different market segments and in the US, the market for higher cost fuel efficient vehicles is owned by the Asian car manufacturers. The people that have and are willing to spend more money on a fuel efficient vehicle expect long term reliability and decent resale value in return. Chevy has not traditionally delivered on that. Just went through this myself. The simple truth is that people who might be in the market for something like a Bolt or a Volt trust Toyota and Honda more. It took some arm twisting to get my wife to consider a Volt for our recent car purchase. If we have a major expense in the next few years, we will probably not buy another Chevy.

The Silverado succeeds because contrary to small cars, Chevy has a long standing good reputation for durable pickups. The Camaro and the Corvette are icons just like the Ford Mustang. My son who is 18 and not particularly into cars can spot a Camaro or Corvette whether it was built in the 60's or last year.

They are distinctly American sports/muscle cars and they will always have their fans unless Chevy really screws up.

When it comes to efficient vehicles that are known and trusted:

Honda has its Civic
Toyota has its Corolla
Even VW has the Golf

What is the Chevy equivalent in small cars? The Cruze? No? Maybe Chevette, Vega, Cobalt, Cavalier?

Now maybe you understand the problem. None of these models lasted because none of them had a reputation good enough to make it smart to keep the name. That is Chevy's problem and it's not something they can fix overnight. It's also why I think it would be wise for the Volt to maintain a unique identity with respect to the Cruze.

And I don't blame Chevy entirely for this. We as Americans often link cost to size. We expect smaller to be cheaper. So an expensive small car is hard for Chevy to sell.
 

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Discussion Starter #15
The simple truth is that people who might be in the market for something like a Bolt or a Volt trust Toyota and Honda more.
That wasn't an accident. It wasn't some 'market force' or other ambiguous perception that can't be fought. GM earned that reputation and it has to earn a new one. A lot of the Chevy ads I see yap about reliability awards. No one cares about awards. They care about experiences. It's a tough nut to crack, but the squirrel doesn't eat if he's afraid of a shell. He gets in there and cracks that nut.

Why am I a fan of the Gen 1 Volt? It's an experience. One that GM fails to communicate about well. I'm also a fan of my 10-year-old Silverado - a different experience but one I'm happy with.

The future is electric says Barra. Must be a future far off, or maybe she meant a Chinese future for GM.

When it comes to efficient vehicles that are known and trusted:

Honda has its Civic
Toyota has its Corolla
Even VW has the Golf

What is the Chevy equivalent in small cars? The Cruze? No? Maybe Chevette, Vega, Cobalt, Cavalier?

Now maybe you understand the problem.
Oh yes I do. I haven't even started in on the Spark, Sonic and others. Those like their cheap-azz predecessors are an embarrassment. Don't forget the previous incarnation of the Colorado. That was a hunk of junk too, and everyone knew it.
 

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So far I'm a huge fan of the Volt and I get the impression that Chevy invested a lot in making sure the battery holds up but I wonder if GM would have been better off creating a new division for it's EVs like they did with Saturn. I know that at the time they were shedding themselves of divisions but it may have helped.

Saturn managed to make a market for itself and was judged on its own merits but GM screwed up and instead of building that unique brand they turned it into another Pontiac that made basically the same cars as Chevy.
 

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Discussion Starter #17
Saturn managed to make a market for itself and was judged on its own merits but GM screwed up and instead of building that unique brand they turned it into another Pontiac that made basically the same cars as Chevy.
In the early days GM essentially tried to deny that Saturn was theirs. I helped build CNC gear hobbers for Saturn in those days, and we were under strict orders not to talk about it being a GM venture.
 

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In the early days GM essentially tried to deny that Saturn was theirs. I helped build CNC gear hobbers for Saturn in those days, and we were under strict orders not to talk about it being a GM venture.
And I'm sure it was extremely expensive to keep that separation and avoid the temptation of tapping into the economies of scale inherent in their known brands. In the end, Saturn was maybe not a big enough of a success to justify it, but I think there could be a middle ground.

I'm sure the internal politics get messy. Chevy, Buick, GMC, and Cadillac don't want to see all the top notch engineers and money being poured into a different division and not being able to reap some of the benefits.
 

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And I'm sure it was extremely expensive to keep that separation and avoid the temptation of tapping into the economies of scale inherent in their known brands. In the end, Saturn was maybe not a big enough of a success to justify it, but I think there could be a middle ground.

I'm sure the internal politics get messy. Chevy, Buick, GMC, and Cadillac don't want to see all the top notch engineers and money being poured into a different division and not being able to reap some of the benefits.
Nah, it was about unions and the Japanese. Saturn wasn't going to be a union shop, and they were relying heavily on Japanese consultants to help them form a different kind of manufacturing style (or so they thought). At the time the Japanese weren't terribly popular with the US patriots, and certainly not the UAW.

You may recall a Micheal Keaton movie from that era.....
 
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The Chinese government is pulling out all the stops to make EV's move. What's the US doing? Rolling back EPA efficiency standards rather than increasing them, thereby promoting oil interests. Is the Fed tax credit being renewed? Increased?
Blame Trump, not Mary. If the U.S. government (as Bush and Obama did) sponsor more EV production with some better incentives, the U.S can become the world leader in EV sales. But Trump owes too much to his oil magnate sponsors. That is why he wants to drop the EPA specs and eliminate CARB.
 
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