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Discussion Starter #1
I thought it would be interesting and informative to see gas prices around the world in US dollars (and gallons).
US = $2.99

Europe = $6.50 to $7.50

China = $4.40

Canada = $3.70

Japan = $4.93


There is less incentive to buy an EV in US than any other country (other than it's other advantages) but US has to keep its toe in or other manufacturers will be so far ahead in technology that American companies won't be able to compete not to mention being able to sell their wares in other countries. There's no shortage of oil like what happened in the 70's and especially not as demand goes down as other forms of energy grow around the world. EV's won't be money makers for Ford/GM/Chrysler for some time to come so if the market doesn't demand it for reasons other than fuel costs it will continue to be a PR exercise for them rather than a necessity. It will take legislation to change things in the near to medium term be it for global warming, pollution or whatever. What do you think?
 

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I think unfortunately you are correct. We need more legislation to promote EV's. We need a carbon tax to internalize the real cost of burning fossil fuels.

Most Americans don't have the luxury of buying an EV at current prices, especially when gasoline is cheap enough that the payback is far off.

Why would someone with a family and on a tight budget, buy a small $35-40k Bolt EV when they can get a larger Equinox for $10k less? Especially if they don't have the income to fully realize the tax credit. And pretty soon the tax credit is gone anyway, barring an extension.

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I think unfortunately you are correct. We need more legislation to promote EV's. We need a carbon tax to internalize the real cost of burning fossil fuels.

Most Americans don't have the luxury of buying an EV at current prices, especially when gasoline is cheap enough that the payback is far off.

Why would someone with a family and on a tight budget, buy a small $35-40k Bolt EV when they can get a larger Equinox for $10k less? Especially if they don't have the income to fully realize the tax credit. And pretty soon the tax credit is gone anyway, barring an extension.

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Unfortunately, agree.


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It will take legislation to change things in the near to medium term be it for global warming, pollution or whatever. What do you think?
Agreed. This is a matter of envisioning the future we want and then creating that future. This doesn't just happen magically. It requires living deliberately.
 

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And we can't forget the power of advertising. Americans have been convinced that they "need" a big SUV to survive that hair-raising, life-threatening suburban commute. I doubt most SUVs ever leave the pavement. And I say this a bit sheepishly, as a former Subaru Outback and Forester owner. They served their purpose for me for many years--Northeast, lots of snow, a job where not reporting for duty was impossible. And sadly, for large families, there may be nothing left; minivans, I guess.
 

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I filled my 2014 yesterday. I paid $1.86 per gallon . I paid $3.79 last week while visiting Califungus .

Running on electric @7.8 cents per kwh equates to 80 cents per gallon.
 

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We need a carbon tax to internalize the real cost of burning fossil fuels.
How about if 60% of the cost of fuel is tax? Is $6.30 a gallon high enough? Want to raise it higher still?


A demonstrator waves the French flag onto a burning barricade on the Champs-Elysees avenue with the Arc de Triomphe in background, during a demonstration against the rising of the fuel taxes, Saturday, Nov. 24, 2018 in Paris. Michel Euler/AP

A picture says a thousand words. But I'll add a few in the form of a question. Isn't this where the climate accord was signed? That looks like the Champs-Élysées to me.

I filled my 2014 yesterday. I paid $1.86 per gallon . I paid $3.79 last week while visiting Califungus.
Well then if anyone wants to pay a carbon tax they know where to find it.

Nice to see an old face around here amigo.
 

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$9 US per Gallon in Australia
 

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Northwest Oregon, Warrenton Costco; reg. 87 octane $2.799 / gallon. High gas prices, more than $4.00 (US) per US gallon, is the price of added taxes for all the FREE stuff you get in those countries. High fuel prices have a monetary effect on everything you purchase, which includes the consequences always of price increases of all goods and services, nothing is left out. Free stuff is never free, somebody somewhere, sometime, or in the future will pay for the free stuff....
 

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Discussion Starter #10
Northwest Oregon, Warrenton Costco; reg. 87 octane $2.799 / gallon. High gas prices, more than $4.00 (US) per US gallon, is the price of added taxes for all the FREE stuff you get in those countries. High fuel prices have a monetary effect on everything you purchase, which includes the consequences always of price increases of all goods and services, nothing is left out. Free stuff is never free, somebody somewhere, sometime, or in the future will pay for the free stuff....
I don't think the "free" medical, social services etc. is paid for by gas taxes. It's paid for by income taxes, VAT taxes etc. Gas taxes are for infrastructure, roads, bridges etc. and to discourage pollution etc. They have to import their oil, what doesn't come from the North Sea. Saw an documentary a while back where the cost of road construction in Germany (would apply to other countries) was ten times higher than US but the roads are better designed and built to last much longer. They are built around public transportation whereas roads are secondary where as in N/A the reverse was true as a result of population density and geography. Not sure where Australia's high gas prices (taxes) goes to.
 

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I was in France back in June and can report their highways and roads are very nice. Never saw a pothole. Even in the rural areas. But we did have to pay tolls on many of the "interstate" type highways.
 

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Is cheap gas a good thing? As a consumer, I love it, but I would think there are unintended consequences that aren't as lovely.

When gas is cheap, people buy big honking SUVs/CUVs/Crossovers and trucks, rather than smaller sedans, wagons, and the like, leading to car companies like Ford and GM dropping their smaller car offerings and replacing them with more SUVs/CUVs/Crossovers and trucks. Not to mention the death of interesting vehicles like the Volt and declining sales of hybrids. It's hard for the US to become a leader in the move towards cleaner and more fuel-efficient vehicles if gas is cheap. European and Chinese car makers will get there first, out of necessity due to higher fuel prices. What will happen to US vehicle exports?

Isn't this dejavu, didn't it happen before where the US was out-of-step with the rest of the world, building vehicles that only sold in the US, and nowhere else? And then when the oil shock hit, we couldn't even sell our gas-guzzlers to Americans. What can we do? Isn't this some sort of paradox?

I think the US should slowly raise the cost of gas and diesel to some agreed upon price, presumably set by Congress, to counter the disincentive to build fuel-efficient vehicles. And, take some of that revenue bounty, and return it to the lower-income folks. The remainder would be revenues raised from higher-income folks, would be used for infrastructure or to fill the gap caused by EV subsidies, etc.

The point is to try and take away the incentive to be wasteful, because we know from experience it will bite us in the end. Look at the Volt. It's a great car, but GM couldn't make money on it, because not enough people bought them, because fuel costs were low, meaning the savings to consumers were not there. If we had $4+ gas, then it stands to reason more people would be looking at hybrids and PHEVs and BEVs. The reason why this is important is because car-buying decisions last a long time. And for car manufacturers, their decisions last years.
 

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I think many people don't realize that the extra cost of filling your gas tank is only part of the price you pay. All products, goods, and services are directly or indirectly related to the price of petroleum. I remember years back that UPS raised their prices on shipping because of the high fuel prices, they referred to it has a sur charge. Other prices I'm sure were also raised but not advertised as such.

I remember years ago when I lived on the east coast back in the 1970's. So many people wanted the oil companies to pay extra taxes as a penalty for the high fuel prices people were paying. They had no idea that they, the same people who were arguing for those taxes to be imposed on oil companies, would be paying those taxes as well.....
 

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I think many people don't realize that the extra cost of filling your gas tank is only part of the price you pay. All products, goods, and services are directly or indirectly related to the price of petroleum. I remember years back that UPS raised their prices on shipping because of the high fuel prices, they referred to it has a sur charge. Other prices I'm sure were also raised but not advertised as such.

I remember years ago when I lived on the east coast back in the 1970's. So many people wanted the oil companies to pay extra taxes as a penalty for the high fuel prices people were paying. They had no idea that they, the same people who were arguing for those taxes to be imposed on oil companies, would be paying those taxes as well.....
If I recall correctly, the clamor was for higher taxes on oil companies' profits, which were at record levels and being described as "windfall" and the result of "price gouging".

At the risk of turning this into a discussion that might best be in the political forum, gas taxes at both the federal and at my state level do not cover the cost of maintaining transportation infrastructure, which is what they were meant to do. An increase at both levels is way past due.
 

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Not just the price of gas as a deterrent, but you also have taxes based on engine size in Japan and parts of Europe. EV only zones in Europe.

I love my Volt, but gas taxes and EV credits are not necessarily the best ways to reduce smog, green house gasses and carbon output.

Some low hanging fruit in the US that I would live changed:
1) Improved freight rail infrastructure and less semi trucks
2) getting older semi trucks off the road (much older than typical cars and driven much more miles than a typical car)
3) brake Regen /hybrid technology on trucks.
4) brake Regen /hybrid/back to grid technology on subways/mass transit. Much of the heat problem in the summer is heat from train brakes during deceleration

Basically - target the vehicles that are used the most and implement a basic mild hybrid system to recapture energy from breaking. Big impact and fewer people to convince to implement.
 

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People really get confused on the actual price of gasoline and many people have no idea they're paying so much tax. People have been conditioned to believe gasoline priced below $4.00 or so is somehow subsidized.

The actual current wholesale price of gasoline in the Americas is about $1.30 per gallon . Our gas stations add 8 cent so $1.38 is added taxes. If you want to find the real price , look to Ecuador, as they have neither tax nor subsidies .

Mexico has announced they plan to gouge their citizens by raising the price to $4.00. California has done the same . The price in Fort Worth today is $1.79 . Countries like Denmark price their gas at $7.00 and charge $50,000 for a $20,000 automobile so people have been accustomed to ride bicycles .
 

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The Global Climate Crisis will continue to gain traction as time goes on. The common folk, called middle class in the U.S., will pay those increased taxes for fossil fuel, petroleum to be technical, the money gained for those taxes will pay for what? The elites will use that money to further their gain in the system, and continue to fly on private jets and crack jokes and laugh at all those common folks in middle America who have no idea what they are paying for.

Show me one country where the initial tax is enough and the Government, Fed, state, or local, never cry out that taxes, or fees, do not need to be increased. Keep looking you might find one on Mars.....
 

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The French government has bowed to gilets jaunes (yellow vests) protesters and abandoned the fuel tax rise that has sparked more than three weeks of violence and seen parts of central Paris in flames.

Just a day after announcing a six-month freeze on the eco-tax, the Elysée Palace declared it was dropping the measure from the 2019 budget.
Macron scraps fuel tax rise in face of gilets jaunes protests
French government drops measure from budget after weeks of protests that left parts of Paris in flames


Who are the gilets jaunes?

A grassroots citizens’ protest movement began in early November against a planned rise in the tax on diesel and petrol, which Emmanuel Macron insisted would aid the country’s transition to green energy. A poll at the time found that the price of fuel had become France’s biggest talking point.

The movement was named “gilets jaunes” (yellow vests) because protesters wear the fluorescent yellow high-vis jackets that all motorists must by law carry in their cars. But what began as a fuel tax protest has now morphed into a wider anti-government movement.

Unlike previous French protest movements, it sprang up online through petitions and was organised by ordinary working people posting videos on social media, without a set leader, trade union or political party behind it.
Who are the gilets jaunes and what do they want?

Reuters said:
With protesters calling on social media for “Act IV” - a fourth weekend of protest - Prime Minister Edouard Philippe said 65,000 police would be drafted in to stop a repeat of last Saturday’s mayhem in Paris, when rioters torched cars and looted shops off the Champs Elysees boulevard.

At least four of the weekend’s first division football matches have been cancelled.

Paris police asked dozens of shop and restaurant owners around the Champs Elysees and Bastille areas to close on Saturday and requested local authorities in 15 areas around the capital to remove anything in the streets that could be used as projectiles.

The government is also considering using troops currently deployed on anti-terrorism patrols to protect public buildings.
Eiffel tower, Louvre among Paris tourism sites to close on Saturday
 

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Outcry as French police round up protesting high-school students



A video showing a mass police round-up of protesting high-school students in Mantes-la-Jolie west of Paris has caused outrage in France. Video of the detained students kneeling in mud started circulating on social media Thursday evening.

The clip shows teenagers on their knees, still wearing their school backpacks, lined up facing a wall. The camera pans and further away are rows upon rows of high-school students, forced to kneel in the mud with their heads bowed and their hands behind their heads, as French police officers carrying riot shields and police batons watch over them.
This is going very well. No fascists here - move along.....
 
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