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Discussion Starter #1
Fortune-CNN Money last year reported on fourteen companies making advanced battery systems and/or electric vehicles (EVs.)

http://money.cnn.com/2007/11/19/smbusiness/electric_cars.fsb/

Commuter Cars continues to crank out Tango EVs and Tesla just delivered its first production Roadster. Subaru begins selling its EV next year and Mitsubishi will sell a highway-capable EV in 2010. Most European automakers have plans to offer EVs and Chrysler has three EV concepts now.

The Volt range-extended EV will be late to the party when it goes on sale in 2011. If it does.
 

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I believe the Chevy Volt will be first to market with the type of EV solution everyone wants - unlimited range, good performance, good price. It reduces fuel consumption by 80% for the typical driver, while allowing them unlimited range using the existing infrastructure of gasoline.

The Tango is a rolling coffin, which you will need if you ever get in an accident with a real car. The Tesla Roadster costs $100K, as does the Fisker Karma. We will see what Mitsubishi offers, but it will not be both high performance and affordable.
 

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I agree, but

I believe the Chevy Volt will be first to market with the type of EV solution everyone wants - unlimited range, good performance, good price. It reduces fuel consumption by 80% for the typical driver, while allowing them unlimited range using the existing infrastructure of gasoline.

The Tango is a rolling coffin, which you will need if you ever get in an accident with a real car. The Tesla Roadster costs $100K, as does the Fisker Karma. We will see what Mitsubishi offers, but it will not be both high performance and affordable.
I agree, Jason, but in ANY case, competition is GOOD. That's what's driving the urgency at GM and once the tipping point is reached with more and more E-REV's on the road at more and more affordable entry levels..... well, everyone benefits. (That Fisker sure is beautiful! We'll have to wait to see what the Volt will look like coming out of the wind tunnel adjustments).
Be well,
Tagamet
 

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Wonder when that will be.... :rolleyes:
I guess it's too much to ask for it to be ready for the NYC Auto Show, but I can dream. It'd be HUGE to just see one of the Malibu Mules with the actual battery pack installed. That'd go a LONG way toward shutting up (or at least dampening) the naysayers.
Be well
 

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Discussion Starter #6
Tango with roll cage safer than gas cars

The Commuter Cars Tango has a full racing roll cage frame; it will protect occupants better than almost any gasser.

From the comments made here and elsewhere, I'm glad that I maintain a guest blog on EVWorld.com expressly to refute inaccurate information and industry-promoted myths about EVs.
 

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The Commuter Cars Tango has a full racing roll cage frame; it will protect occupants better than almost any gasser.

From the comments made here and elsewhere, I'm glad that I maintain a guest blog on EVWorld.com expressly to refute inaccurate information and industry-promoted myths about EVs.
Hugh,

I am sure the Tango meets the safety requirements for 3 wheeled vehicles, but I disagree that it is safer than any midsized American / European sedan. Vehicle mass has a lot to do with the accelerations each vehicle receives in a collision, and if a Malibu hits a Tango, the Malibu will be the windshield, and the Tango will be the bug.
 

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Hugh,

I am sure the Tango meets the safety requirements for 3 wheeled vehicles, but I disagree that it is safer than any midsized American / European sedan. Vehicle mass has a lot to do with the accelerations each vehicle receives in a collision, and if a Malibu hits a Tango, the Malibu will be the windshield, and the Tango will be the bug.
The Tango has 4 wheels and I'd much rather be in it than the Malibu. Does the Malibu have a roll cage? Have you even been to Commuter Cars site? Just because a car is small doesn't mean it's less safe than a larger one.
http://www.autobloggreen.com/2008/03/07/video-who-says-small-cars-are-less-safe-than-big-ones/
 

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Fortune-CNN Money last year reported on fourteen companies making advanced battery systems and/or electric vehicles (EVs.)

http://money.cnn.com/2007/11/19/smbusiness/electric_cars.fsb/

Commuter Cars continues to crank out Tango EVs and Tesla just delivered its first production Roadster. Subaru begins selling its EV next year and Mitsubishi will sell a highway-capable EV in 2010. Most European automakers have plans to offer EVs and Chrysler has three EV concepts now.

The Volt range-extended EV will be late to the party when it goes on sale in 2011. If it does.
Hey Hugh, you left out Nissan / Renault http://www.autobloggreen.com/2008/03/07/ghosn-promises-america-an-electric-car-for-2010/
 

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Missed communication?

Hugh,

I am sure the Tango meets the safety requirements for 3 wheeled vehicles, but I disagree that it is safer than any midsized American / European sedan. Vehicle mass has a lot to do with the accelerations each vehicle receives in a collision, and if a Malibu hits a Tango, the Malibu will be the windshield, and the Tango will be the bug.
Maybe the communication went off kilter when one post said ANY midsized car and the other said ALMOST any midsized car.
In any case, I know that small cars are not inevitably unsafe, because a Prius saved my daughter's life.
Seems to me this thread got A) off topic and B) a bit sour. Let's get back to dreaming, er I mean speculating, about the March 19th presentation!
God Bless,
Tagamet
 

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Discussion Starter #11
Four-wheeled, Highway-Capable Tango EV

Hugh,

I am sure the Tango meets the safety requirements for 3 wheeled vehicles, but I disagree that it is safer than any midsized American / European sedan. Vehicle mass has a lot to do with the accelerations each vehicle receives in a collision, and if a Malibu hits a Tango, the Malibu will be the windshield, and the Tango will be the bug.

Jason: The Tango has four wheels, and weighs over a ton. I guess that I'm going to have to educate several posters to this list. I didn't expect this level of ignorance here.

My work in that regard is almost done, as the President, GM and Toyota all pushed publicly for electric vehicles (EVs) last week.
 

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WOW!

Now that you alone have convinced the world that the electrification of vehicles is the correct thing to do, what will you do next to educate us?

You might want to step down off of your pedestal.....
 

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Jason: The Tango has four wheels, and weighs over a ton. I guess that I'm going to have to educate several posters to this list. I didn't expect this level of ignorance here.

My work in that regard is almost done, as the President, GM and Toyota all pushed publicly for electric vehicles (EVs) last week.
All of us are ignorant to some extent. Tactless and egomaniacal, now those are other issues....
 

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All of us are ignorant to some extent. Tactless and egomaniacal, now those are other issues....
I don't mind, I am sure he is trying to earn another patch for his scout uniform.

What's funny to me, is the belief by enthusiasts and hypests, that the conversion to a new tech is purely achieved by their witnessing on the unproselytized, and has nothing to do to the true visionaries who created the enabling tech / product that earned the acceptance of the marketplace.
 

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What's funny to me, is the belief by enthusiasts and hypests, that the conversion to a new tech is purely achieved by their witnessing on the unproselytized, and has nothing to do to the true visionaries who created the enabling tech / product that earned the acceptance of the marketplace.
Please disregard this post. I thought it was the electric auto ass.
 

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Discussion Starter #16 (Edited)
I regret that my statements of fact and my opinions upset so many of you. I do not work for a major automotive OEM, as some of you have (or still do.)

If your personal conclusions cannot be influenced by hard data, you will continue to punish the messenger who brings inconvenient news. I have been trying to buy a pure battery electric vehicle (EV) from GM for over eight years, with no satisfactory conclusion in sight even now. Yes, I am frustrated by GM never selling (or even fairly test-marketing) the fast, nimble, elegant, efficient and well-equipped EV1, which I once drove and still love. Yes, I am upset with GM's repossessing and crushing its EV1; even now, GM continues to keep its donated museum and university-engineering EV1s from being resuscitated and driven on the street.

I am simply keeping the pressure on OEMs and ignorant media reporters (whose editors perhaps are intimidated by pressures from big oil and auto advertisers) who continue to disinform the public about EVs. GM pulled all its advertising from the Los Angeles Times after LAT endorsed California's last clean-air law, and last year joined a lawsuit to overturn the new law.

I'm amused by the posters calling me names; over the last decade, I've debated many other old-tech devotees who thought that their opinions trumped reality. Why don't you just call me unpatriotic? Because your barbs would promote our helping to pay for both sides of our Iraq adventure? I won't stick you with unwarranted labels; the only thing that I despise here is ignorance and wrong-headedness. This thread has no shortage of either, judging by the jeering posts.

I am in awe of the late Paul MacCready (Gossamer Condor, Gossamer Albatross human-powered aircraft and Helios solar-powered airplane inventor,) named the engineer of the century by an engineering association, whose AeroVironment produced the prototype EV1 and sold it to GM. Also the Toyota folks who honorably sold some of their RAV4 EVs to individuals (alone among five OEMs who had built well-engineered EVs,) the brilliant Raser engineers who have increased electric-motor efficiency by 25% and the AC Propulsion people who convert Scion xBs into "eBox" EVs. I am filled with admiration for the Tesla people, who plan to quickly mass-produce affordable second- and third-generation EVs in their Albuquerque factory.

GM didn't sell the resulting EV1 (debuted as the "Impact" in 1990,) never relenting even when Dohring automotive-market data supported an EV-market study's conclusion (in 2000) that battery EV sales would exceed 200,000 within five years of first sales offer. Why?

Firstly, EVs need almost no replacement parts, compared to internal combustion engined vehicles (ICEVs;) electric motors have essentially one moving part. In other words, EVs will decimate OEMs' replacement-parts sales profits. Secondly, OEM dealers make as much as 40% of their profits from their service departments. Perhaps these facts influenced Chrysler, GM and California GM dealers to prosecute a Federal case against the California Air Resources Board's 1990 zero-emission vehicle mandate.

Again, my apologies for upsetting your illusions and for my sharp words. If GM had sold EV1s in 2000, as it had promised to do in 1990, I would not have taken up the pen to advocate sales of (and, later, try to save) the EV1.

The coming range-extended Volt EV will compete with similarly-priced pure EVs offering five times its all-electric range. With gasoline perhaps selling for over $5 a gallon by then, the gas-dependent Volt may not sell all that well, even if GM spends the billions of dollars on promotion that it didn't spend on the EV1.
 

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EVolution, We understand your obsession with the EV1 and your pain. We all want to see the EV/Hybrid/EREV/whatever make it to the market. However, the frustration many people have is that you cry over spilled milk like a 10 year old. There is nothing we can do about it. In life you have to move on or your obsession will alienate you from the people that are working to improve things. Understand? If you can harness that passion to work on the solution I think you will be much happier. Yes, we have to help keep the fire under the feet of the auto manufactures but holding an iron there only gets them angry. I hope this helps. Seriously, you obsess over this like I obsess over solar-on-the-surface (SOTS). We both need to cool it. ;)

My name is Texas... I'm a solar addict ;)
 

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Discussion Starter #19
Texas and Tagamet:

Perhaps you mean well, but calling me obsessive and comparing me to an over-emotional ten-year-old is not helpful. I am 58 years old and know exactly what I'm doing. I might suggest that you are a bit credulous.

You suggest that I do something useful. Done. I have been working to improve society since 1968. I doubt that any of you have accomplished more in this area. I worked successfully to end one aggressive war and am working to end another now; I was protesting the Iraq invasion months before we went in. I have been defending Americans' civic and civil rights since 1963 and have spent seven years decrying the authoritarians now controlling our Federal government.

Your opinion that we can do nothing about the fate of the EV1 is true. I watched GM debut the concept in 1990, promising to sell EVs. Then, after having its bluff called by the California Air Board, GM used every tactic to avoid doing just that. Should GM not be held accountable and therefore learn nothing from its mistakes?

I am not paid to puff or defend GM. Some of you sound very like the industry shills that for several years have also been calling me names and trying to discourage my continuing eight-year quest for a fast GM battery EV such as the crushed EV1.

The Volt debut announcements included GM's insistence on lithium (Li) batteries for its production range-extended electric vehicle (REEV.) Suitable Li-batts could have been available now, if not for hostile oil and auto industry actions. Alternatives exist: suitable nickel metal hydride (NiMH) battery manufacturing rights were sold by GM to a company owned by Chevron-Texaco, which has refused to sell large-format NiMH batteries to small customers. The GM Volt PR campaign looked like the early stages of the EV1 fiasco- until last week.

I am happy that GM apparently will mass-produce the Volt (or something like it.) It will reduce oil consumption considerably and slow the rise in automotive air, earth and water pollution. I understand your willingness to believe that all is well; you don't know, or want to forget that thousands of perfectly good, highway-capable EVs were crushed by OEMs, ending only three years ago.

My concern is that GM continues to disinform the public about the EV1. You advise me to "move on," in other words, to stop calling GM on its claims that there was no market for EVs and that they didn't sell. Lies won't do.

GM never sold highway-capable EVs, after three concept debuts over three decades. Your blind faith that it is now telling the truth about the Volt strikes me as naive. I've been through this before, and it ended in destruction and Hummers.

Please feel free to continue attacking the bearer of bad news: it does not change the fact that GM still does not plan to sell zero-emission vehicles that go over forty miles. Its 1966 Electrovair concept could do that, and a Li-battery EV1 would range over 200 miles per charge.

In other words, GM has a problem, not me. It gave up a commanding lead in practical EVs and wasted a decade shilling for ruinously expensive and impractical fool-sell, er, fuel-cell vehicles (FCVs.)

GM is now squirming out of its commitment to sell FCVs to meet the California Air Resources Board's ZEV mandate requirements. In the meanwhile, at least ten other makers will beat GM to market with highway-capable battery EVs.

I will probably buy another maker's pure EV for under $40,000 by the time the oil-dependent Volt goes on sale. It will be faster than the Volt and range at least 150 miles on a full charge.

I remain willing to consider any practical highway-capable battery EV that GM should, in the future, decide to mass-produce and sell. Make it so, Number One!
 

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I think the Chevy Volt should be the first to market solution for all types of RSV want - unlimited, high performance, good price. It reduces fuel consumption by 80% of a typical driver, leaving them to unlimited use of existing infrastructure of gasoline.
 
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