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So here is someone who agrees with me:
http://theeestory.com/articles/3

"The history of the energy storage market is peppered with tales of stolen intellectual property. Such is the opinion of a person I spoke with recently who is familiar with the industry and knowledgeable about many of the companies within it. Given this historical blemish, market participants have had to adopt increased caution in bringing innovations into being.

But it also has some EEStor Subject Matter Experts that did not end up smiling on their way to the airport:
"Like Burke, Miller was hired to assist with evaluating Weir's claims on behalf of potential investors. Miller added that he has actually been hired 3 times to evaluate Weir's claims and each time advised strongly against it.
 

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I think you totally missed what I was saying. EESTOR has nothing to gain by showing the world how the EESU works or if it works at all until they are in production. Showing how the technology works a year before they are in production gives the competition an extra year to catch up. Until production of EESUs is underway, they can not do 1, 2, or 3. No upside to EESTOR at all for spilling the beans early (before the manufacturing is in place). Big upside to their competitors, though.



Yes, I guess I did miss your point. You said:

"I can't think of a single thing EESTOR has to gain by shouting to the world that the eesu works and how it works."


I just provided a few things that might override the decision to be in stealth mode until they secured their billions. They already have patents on the technology so they will be fine. I'll say it a gain, if they have a product that works and are just working on their own minuscule volume production line then what they are doing is criminal in face of the energy crisis we are in. How can you not think it isn‘t?

Of course they will not be able to do 1, 2 or 3. They are a tiny company! That's my point! All of the major manufactures on earth need to be gearing up to make these amazing energy storage devices. You may think I’m over reacting but in reality you are underestimating the value of what they claim. I'm talking practical electric cars (no hybrids needed), practical semi-trucks, electric airplanes and unlimited amounts of cheap storage for solar and wind farms. Are those small and insignificant applications that can be fulfilled by EEstor? The same company that doesn't even have a web site? You don't see anything wrong with this? It's just capitalism, man. Right? Amazing.

I'm sticking with the EEscam story and that they don't have anything anywhere near what they claimed or it's nowhere near releasing to manufacturing. If it were ready for release to manufacturing then they are sacrificing the welfare of the world for a few bucks. It's really that simple. That would make even Rush Limbaugh cringe... Maybe not.
 

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Yes, I guess I did miss your point. You said:

"I can't think of a single thing EESTOR has to gain by shouting to the world that the eesu works and how it works."


I just provided a few things that might override the decision to be in stealth mode until they secured their billions. They already have patents on the technology so they will be fine. I'll say it a gain, if they have a product that works and are just working on their own minuscule volume production line then what they are doing is criminal in face of the energy crisis we are in. How can you not think it isn‘t?

Of course they will not be able to do 1, 2 or 3. They are a tiny company! That's my point! All of the major manufactures on earth need to be gearing up to make these amazing energy storage devices. You may think I’m over reacting but in reality you are underestimating the value of what they claim. I'm talking practical electric cars (no hybrids needed), practical semi-trucks, electric airplanes and unlimited amounts of cheap storage for solar and wind farms. Are those small and insignificant applications that can be fulfilled by EEstor? The same company that doesn't even have a web site? You don't see anything wrong with this? It's just capitalism, man. Right? Amazing.

I'm sticking with the EEscam story and that they don't have anything anywhere near what they claimed or it's nowhere near releasing to manufacturing. If it were ready for release to manufacturing then they are sacrificing the welfare of the world for a few bucks. It's really that simple. That would make even Rush Limbaugh cringe... Maybe not.
I know pretty well what the ramifications are. It changes how we get to work, battlefields, the balance of power in the middle east, portable tools, purifying water in the desert, storage of solar and wind power, enables things like autonomous powered exo-suits, and turns a small Texas company into the next Edison Power crossed with Intel. The way to protect your interests, and ensure that it makes it to market is to keep quiet (to the world at large) until you can demonstrate actual working units rolling off the end of the production line.

Going on the assumption that it's real (and that is a big assumption I agree). And the assumption that it isn't ready for production yet (your quote). What does it gain them by demonstrating it? Their patents protect the implementation of their device, not the phenomenon that makes it possible. What's to stop someone else from applying the same techniques to a different material than Barium Titanate? Maybe, like with high temperature superconductors, there are a lot of combinations of material that work? If you show the world how it works 18 months before you can get it in production, your competition has 18 months to try and work around your patents.

I'll say it a gain, if they have a product that works and are just working on their own minuscule volume production line then what they are doing is criminal in face of the energy crisis we are in. How can you not think it isn‘t?
How does telling the world how it works (by releasing all the patents), and demonstrating that a lab built prototype works help them refine the process for manufacturability? Do you mean to take the technology away from them and let someone else build the first minuscule volume production line? A product that works in the lab and one made thousands of times a day are two different beasts. Go look up <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetoresistive_Random_Access_Memory">MRAM</a>, and ask yourself if it works (and it does), why do computers still use DRAM? The answer is manufacturability. Not sure how going public helps them get it to market faster. At best it's a big distraction, at worst who knows. And in the case that they can't get it into production... what good does showing the world a hand built prototype do for them or us? It doesn't help develop the correct processes and equipment to move the technology from the design lab to volume manufacturing production, that's for sure.

Pretty sure they understand the potential market. And I'm also pretty sure they have a plan to build manufacturing capacity. One of the things I heard was that they plan to license the tech to customers so that they can build EESU's right on their on mfg plant grounds.
 

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I know pretty well what the ramifications are. It changes how we get to work, battlefields, the balance of power in the middle east, portable tools, purifying water in the desert, storage of solar and wind power, enables things like autonomous powered exo-suits, and turns a small Texas company into the next Edison Power crossed with Intel. The way to protect your interests, and ensure that it makes it to market is to keep quiet (to the world at large) until you can demonstrate actual working units rolling off the end of the production line.

Going on the assumption that it's real (and that is a big assumption I agree). And the assumption that it isn't ready for production yet (your quote). What does it gain them by demonstrating it? Their patents protect the implementation of their device, not the phenomenon that makes it possible. What's to stop someone else from applying the same techniques to a different material than Barium Titanate? Maybe, like with high temperature superconductors, there are a lot of combinations of material that work? If you show the world how it works 18 months before you can get it in production, your competition has 18 months to try and work around your patents.



How does telling the world how it works (by releasing all the patents), and demonstrating that a lab built prototype works help them refine the process for manufacturability? Do you mean to take the technology away from them and let someone else build the first minuscule volume production line? A product that works in the lab and one made thousands of times a day are two different beasts. Go look up <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetoresistive_Random_Access_Memory">MRAM</a>, and ask yourself if it works (and it does), why do computers still use DRAM? The answer is manufacturability. Not sure how going public helps them get it to market faster. At best it's a big distraction, at worst who knows. And in the case that they can't get it into production... what good does showing the world a hand built prototype do for them or us? It doesn't help develop the correct processes and equipment to move the technology from the design lab to volume manufacturing production, that's for sure.

Pretty sure they understand the potential market. And I'm also pretty sure they have a plan to build manufacturing capacity. One of the things I heard was that they plan to license the tech to customers so that they can build EESU's right on their on mfg plant grounds.



Your words just prove how you think about this technology. You are actually comparing MRAM to a disruptive energy storage device. Is that what you are doing?

Second, what’s this about "releasing the patents"? Do you even know how the system works? They are public domain once they are issued. Go ahead and look a few up.

This leads me to the next question. Have you ever worked on bringing up a manufacturing line? If you haven't then I can understand your confusion.

Finally, you only made more of an argument that they are not ready for mass production. If they were they would have prototypes, pilot lines etc. You can't just go to mass production without the other steps because you don't know what processes to automate and how to scale them up. Make sense?

They said they are getting ready to deliver volume product to Zenn. That means they have extremely high confidence in their product and processes and are basically receiving large manufacturing equipment, having it installed, writing control software, getting facilities hooked up and setting up all of the other millions of things needed to get a brand new line up and running.

So I will say it again. If they are at that point (which I doubt and the more I think about it the less confidence I have in their actual progress) then this type of preparation for mass production could be going on at multiple sites by people that know how to do things in huge volumes.

Now if they are just basically still fooling around with not only the pack design (that is going into the Zenn car) but also the chemistry, the actual production process development, manufacture of basic materials (like the ultra pure power - which they now claim to be able to do in huge quantities), etc. then I can see why they are still being quiet. If this is the case you can expect even more delays until we see any volume of product.

It's like the people who think you can start drilling now and the oil will be coming out in a few months. These people have no clue on how things are done, even if expedited. Same with a brand new high volume production line that builds a brand new product that has never been done before (and scientists still claim is impossible).

Beyond all of that simple technical stuff, I worry about you, Cobraphx. It's what you write that should have people wondering about you or maybe sleeping with one eye open when near you:

"What's to stop someone else from applying the same techniques to a different material than Barium Titanate? Maybe, like with high temperature superconductors, there are a lot of combinations of material that work?"


There! You said it. Assuming they are just working on the volume production (getting a specific product up for large numbers, like to fulfill orders from Zenn) but are still holding that holy-grail technology all to themselves for their own profit, that sounds good to you!

Now don't get me wrong, I'm not working for free either but this is a completely different situation. It's analogous to us being at war and your buddies at EEstor figured out the bomb but are not going to deliver the first two prototypes until they have the production line in full swing. That way they can really establish themselves and get a great jump on the competition. Yes, it's that important of a discovery if it does what they claim and they are as far as they claim (volume delivery to Zenn in a few months).

So I say EEscam or EEvil. The first is they have nothing and are just milking things in hopes of a miracle (if they are kind hearted) and the second is if they are sitting on a technology that will solve the energy crisis until they are assured of maximum profits. <burr>
 

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Your words just prove how you think about this technology. You are actually comparing MRAM to a disruptive energy storage device. Is that what you are doing?

Second, what’s this about "releasing the patents"? Do you even know how the system works? They are public domain once they are issued. Go ahead and look a few up.
I'm comparing moving MRAM prototypes to production, to moving EESTOR prototypes to production. Neither is easy, I saw the first MRAM prototypes from the fab R&D pilot line in 2002 the company is now just getting the first low density products into the marketplace.

Guess what? The patents can't be issued until you complete the filing process. Wonder why there is one issued patent and 24 recently filed? Could it be that they delayed filling the substantial patents until they were close to production?

This leads me to the next question. Have you ever worked on bringing up a manufacturing line? If you haven't then I can understand your confusion.
Actually I've been working in semiconductor manufacturing for quite a while now. I've worked in the factory testing semiconductor processing equipment, done semiconductor equipment installation in new semiconductor fabs, provided engineering support in several volume semiconductor fabs in multiple countries, now I work in a semiconductor wafer test facility. So I have a pretty good idea how hard is to move from a 3" test wafer done in an R&D lab to building a 12" wafer production line and then actually producing a few hundred wafers a day on that line.

Finally, you only made more of an argument that they are not ready for mass production. If they were they would have prototypes, pilot lines etc. You can't just go to mass production without the other steps because you don't know what processes to automate and how to scale them up. Make sense?

They said they are getting ready to deliver volume product to Zenn. That means they have extremely high confidence in their product and processes and are basically receiving large manufacturing equipment, having it installed, writing control software, getting facilities hooked up and setting up all of the other millions of things needed to get a brand new line up and running.

So I will say it again. If they are at that point (which I doubt and the more I think about it the less confidence I have in their actual progress) then this type of preparation for mass production could be going on at multiple sites by people that know how to do things in huge volumes.

Now if they are just basically still fooling around with not only the pack design (that is going into the Zenn car) but also the chemistry, the actual production process development, manufacture of basic materials (like the ultra pure power - which they now claim to be able to do in huge quantities), etc. then I can see why they are still being quiet. If this is the case you can expect even more delays until we see any volume of product.

It's like the people who think you can start drilling now and the oil will be coming out in a few months. These people have no clue on how things are done, even if expedited. Same with a brand new high volume production line that builds a brand new product that has never been done before (and scientists still claim is impossible).
Very interesting stuff there... Not sure I actually follow you logic here. I assert that releasing info (prototypes and patents) before you are ready for volume production is not helpful if you are already fully funded for production (like EESTOR is). And you assert that if they are receiving equipment to build the first production line they could be building lots of production lines simultaneously. Until that first production line is producing product, the process controls, process monitors, equipment maintenance procedures, equipment qualification procedures, as well as the operation procedures are developed and in place it's foolish to build more than one production line. The R&D lab where you built the prototypes is of no help here.

Here are a few quotes from EESTOR's Weir:
"We were [funded] to put a production line in. So what we are putting in here is a production line. (production said slowly and with emphasis)"
"We fully plan to do a major expansion on this to meet anybody's requirement as we go forward"
"No, we've already done all the R&D and preproduction on this a long time ago. Now our [funding is] to put a production line in. This press release was put out to tell the people of our production successes that we have had."
"If we get challenged, we'll move to scale up," he said. "We have a lot of knowledge built up."
It's certainly sounds like they are in the process of building a production line (the first ever for their product). No company goes out and builds 40 production lines before they've built a single working line.

Beyond all of that simple technical stuff, I worry about you, Cobraphx. It's what you write that should have people wondering about you or maybe sleeping with one eye open when near you:

"What's to stop someone else from applying the same techniques to a different material than Barium Titanate? Maybe, like with high temperature superconductors, there are a lot of combinations of material that work?"

There! You said it. Assuming they are just working on the volume production (getting a specific product up for large numbers, like to fulfill orders from Zenn) but are still holding that holy-grail technology all to themselves for their own profit, that sounds good to you!

Now don't get me wrong, I'm not working for free either but this is a completely different situation. It's analogous to us being at war and your buddies at EEstor figured out the bomb but are not going to deliver the first two prototypes until they have the production line in full swing. That way they can really establish themselves and get a great jump on the competition. Yes, it's that important of a discovery if it does what they claim and they are as far as they claim (volume delivery to Zenn in a few months).

So I say EEscam or EEvil. The first is they have nothing and are just milking things in hopes of a miracle (if they are kind hearted) and the second is if they are sitting on a technology that will solve the energy crisis until they are assured of maximum profits. <burr>
So, you assert that the EESU should be public domain. Certainly a bit socialist of you, not the stand I'd expect from someone that goes by "Texas". Me on the other hand, I think they should be allowed to run their company and business the way they and their investors see fit. I'd guess that they have a vested interest in getting the EESU to production. They and their investors also have a vested interest in ramping production to meet demand. I'm sure money will be no object to ramping production if they can get a production line working and delivering EESUs.

We could also apply your logic to the Volt as well... it's been prototyped, and we know it works right? If half the American people were driving Volts, we would solve our oil import problem. So why don't we take the control of that technology from GM and build them in 10 production lines tomorrow? Maybe because they don't even have the first production line complete yet (like EESTOR). Maybe because the US is a free market. Maybe because GM will bring it to market on their own.
 

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I'm comparing moving MRAM prototypes to production, to moving EESTOR prototypes to production. Neither is easy, I saw the first MRAM prototypes from the fab R&D pilot line in 2002 the company is now just getting the first low density products into the marketplace.

Guess what? The patents can't be issued until you complete the filing process. Wonder why there is one issued patent and 24 recently filed? Could it be that they delayed filling the substantial patents until they were close to production?



Actually I've been working in semiconductor manufacturing for quite a while now. I've worked in the factory testing semiconductor processing equipment, done semiconductor equipment installation in new semiconductor fabs, provided engineering support in several volume semiconductor fabs in multiple countries, now I work in a semiconductor wafer test facility. So I have a pretty good idea how hard is to move from a 3" test wafer done in an R&D lab to building a 12" wafer production line and then actually producing a few hundred wafers a day on that line.



Very interesting stuff there... Not sure I actually follow you logic here. I assert that releasing info (prototypes and patents) before you are ready for volume production is not helpful if you are already fully funded for production (like EESTOR is). And you assert that if they are receiving equipment to build the first production line they could be building lots of production lines simultaneously. Until that first production line is producing product, the process controls, process monitors, equipment maintenance procedures, equipment qualification procedures, as well as the operation procedures are developed and in place it's foolish to build more than one production line. The R&D lab where you built the prototypes is of no help here.

Here are a few quotes from EESTOR's Weir:


It's certainly sounds like they are in the process of building a production line (the first ever for their product). No company goes out and builds 40 production lines before they've built a single working line.



So, you assert that the EESU should be public domain. Certainly a bit socialist of you, not the stand I'd expect from someone that goes by "Texas". Me on the other hand, I think they should be allowed to run their company and business the way they and their investors see fit. I'd guess that they have a vested interest in getting the EESU to production. They and their investors also have a vested interest in ramping production to meet demand. I'm sure money will be no object to ramping production if they can get a production line working and delivering EESUs.

We could also apply your logic to the Volt as well... it's been prototyped, and we know it works right? If half the American people were driving Volts, we would solve our oil import problem. So why don't we take the control of that technology from GM and build them in 10 production lines tomorrow? Maybe because they don't even have the first production line complete yet (like EESTOR). Maybe because the US is a free market. Maybe because GM will bring it to market on their own.



I knew you were going to throw out the socialist card. A way to marginalize the situation. Well, if I'm being a socialist because I wish for a disruptive and, as you said, developed and ready to go technology to be put in the hands of more capable manufacturing experts so it can begin to relieve the pain and suffering of the world's populations, then call me a socialist. If on the other hand you can put a label on a person that would want to hide a cure for AIDS (life saving device) for the profit of a few of his best friends (shareholders) then I would not want to be associated with such greed and selfishness.

I think we all know how business works. I love the game myself. It's a very good system for motivating people by rewarding for hard work. However, if you associated EEstor’s discovery to that of a life saving drug would you still feel the same (assuming the drug has passed all trials and is ready for production and the line is being built and the product is certified for sale)? I'm guessing you really wouldn’t but are just trying to keep your side of the debate going. Remember, peoples lives are in the balance. People are dying because when energy prices shoot up that high people starve. Do you deny that? Would the discovery of a disruptive energy device help? If you say yes but still think the company has a right to profit first then nobody can help you. How about when the energy prices jump like they did due to the impending energy crisis and that resulted in the massive transfer of wealth from the poor to the rich. Those poor people's lives have been ruined. This is happening very silently today. I'm sure you are aware of this. Ruined people forced to start again from scratch after doing the right thing for 20 or 30 years. Small business owners, transportation businesses, etc. The economy is crashing around you but you see nothing wrong with these guys holding back? What's the matter with you?

Of course I understand how manufacturing works. Again you are just trying to weed yourself out of your silly position. Let's take manufacturing out of the argument and say that they have a product that is well tested and they are simply ramping up to volume. That is what you just posted. Not that they are working on major process development. They are just ramping. Don't try to squirm out of it. We both know there is a difference. I'm not saying to release anything that is not ready and would best be done by the experts in-house. I not saying that because it's obvious.

We are talking about two choices. There is a disruptive energy device that can help with the current energy crisis. Do you 1) hold on to it to ensure your wealth in the face of other's suffering or 2) Do the right thing and call some meeting and license out the technology to the really big boys? That's what we are talking about. Try to keep from dancing around the issue.

Thus, I'm saying if they are doing 1) they are criminals. This is a wartime condition. I think most moral people can agree with that. I'm thinking that the guys over in the tiny building in Texas with a small sign that says EEstor (maybe not) on it are good guys that know exactly where they are. We, on the other hand, can only guess. Therefore, I conclude that they are not holding anything back. They are just not that far along to hand anything out! It's the only case that makes sense.

Thus, EEstor is not as far along in their development as they claim. Products are going to be delayed and of diminished performance. Hopefully it will be a step forward but is probably not going to be disruptive. They know it, now we know it. Anything else would be a crime against humanity.
 

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I read all these new post for what... nothing. Basically everyone here has the same views... so let argue about it. ;)

Who disagrees with the points below.
1. Nobody here knows if the EEStor device will work when manufactured.
2. Everyone agrees that it would change the world like nothing ever has including the atomic bomb, the wheel and sliced bread.
 

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Zenn Motors Hokd Exclusive License For Eestor In Automotive Uses

check out zeen motor cars ... early on they invested some millions in eestor and licensed the technology exclusively for automotice uses the same way lockheed martin has licensed the technology for military uses. znn.v is publicly traded. I do own some shares and treat is as purely speculative. i am aware of the various limitation of barium titanate, etc. the point is GM COULD BUY THIS ZENN COMPANY FOR A SONG AND SNAP UP THE EESTOR TECHNOLOGY FOR SFA. it would literally cost GM LESS than the amount of money they spend on developing any new nbattery technology ... and if it works as EESTOR says then buying Zenn, a tiny Canadian company easily absorbable in GM, could not only save GM it could catapult them into the stratosphere! Wagoner is a bit of a dope but this could save GM if it works and the leverage costs here are unbelievably low. I want a VOLT but if the EESTOR technology works I am buying a Zenn - sorry. I'd rather be sitting on a cool running high discharge capacitor than a lithium ion thermal event ..
 

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oops - i meant ZENN Motorcars

Zenn has licensed the EESTOR technology exclusively for automotive uses ... GM could not buy the technology from EESTOR and would have to deal with ZENN. GM should just buy ZENN (ZNN.V on the TSX)
 

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Zenn Too Small - Good Takeover Opportunity For Gm

DEFINITELY NOT TH OTHER WAY AROUND ... DON'T BE SILLY.

I do own a few throusand sahres of znn.v however. i think it is not a bet the farm stock and that it is highly speculative. However, if the eestor technology works as touted then yes - ZNN.V will be worth a lot more and GM would be well advised to acquire ZNN.V and all of Zenn Motorcars. another scenario would have gm licensing the technology from ZNN. Basically if it does work i am loading up on ZNN.V!:D
 

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Zenn has licensed the EESTOR technology exclusively for automotive uses ... GM could not buy the technology from EESTOR and would have to deal with ZENN. GM should just buy ZENN (ZNN.V on the TSX)
Not so. Zenn only has the rights for cars under a certain weight. GM could bypass zenn and incorporate the EEStor device in the heavy SUV's and such.
 

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ZENN has exclusive rights in cars up to 3,000lbs. The Volt is expected to weigh about 3,500lbs (which is kind of heavy thanks to both a genset and a pack). The other exclusive-use license is military and homeland security applications, and those are taken by Lockheed Martin.
 

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Zenn Stock Will Explode If Eestor Works [email protected] As Well As Planned

I am backing up the truck on this one if it works and have increased my position in znn.v i do not own any gm stock but were gm to even announce they were looking at eestor technology i would then buy more znn.v and some gm stock. gm is not going to get into any potential lawsuit over a weight dispute. when you have as much money as they do potentially you just come in with a clean slate, but your competitors and "motor" on ..... Gm wants Eestor technology they will have to buy Zenn or license the technology through zenn. sweet for zenn stockholders. a lawsuit would be guaranteed and instantaneous if gm were to try by any other means ... of course zenn owns potentially as much as 10% of eestor too so you have to consider that. i want deperately an electric car to get me 30 miles (50 km) into work each day and 30 miles home - i can charge at work - but i need to be able to hit speeds of 100 km/h (60 mph) so the current zenn is not good and gm has nothing. if eestor works, and the gm volt could have that powerplant i would be all over getting a few cars and dumping what i have now fairly quickly. i would at that point also consider incorporating solar and wind at home to charge my cars and power my home - i live in the countyr and i am ready to leaver oil somewhat behind. i would rather we had oil to make drugs and the other things electricity can not replace. why use oil to generate power or use it for transportation. The military application for lockheed is huge too - if eestor delivers by lockheed stock too :)
 

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Is there any downside for EESTOR . . .

. . . to publish actual performance figures* prior to an IPO, assuming that the performance figures show outstanding performance? This would eliminate the "scam" fog that has been surrounding the company.

* verifed by one or more independent, reputable test labs
 
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