[Glen M]

http://www.financialpost.com/story.html?id=613448

Sometime over the next several weeks, a privately-held and ultra-secretive company named EEStor Inc. based in Cedar Park, Texas is expected to release the results of independent third-party testing of its electrical energy storage unit, which aims to replace the electrochemical batteries we now use in everything from hybrid cars to laptop computers. EEStor says its system, combining battery and ultracapacitor technology and based on modified barium titanate ceramic powder, could power a car for 400 kilometres with regular performance. It claims the unit would charge in a few minutes and weigh less than 10% of current lead-acid batteries for the same cost.

 

[Texas]

http://www.financialpost.com/story.html?id=613448

If their technology delivers only 25% of what they are claiming it will change the world in just about every way. I am extremely cautious about their claims but look forward to this third party evaluation. Should be interesting.

 

[JoeReal]

If their technology delivers only 25% of what they are claiming it will change the world in just about every way. I am extremely cautious about their claims but look forward to this third party evaluation. Should be interesting.

Don't worry, their claims are getting more down to earth! The first report that I've read states, it would be 500 mile range per charge. Now this third Party verification news stated a range of 400 kilometers, which is 50% of 500 miles, or about 248 miles per charge. Perhaps within weeks, the third party will conclude 125 mile range, which is a mere 25% of the original claim. Not really that impressive compared to what is there right now, except that the battery weight would be 10% of lead acid battery that can store the same power.

So you would be right on that it will be 25% of original claims,

 

[omegaman66]

Yep I am hoping they deliever 90% of what they promised but realistically I would be happy with 25% delivery in the price range they are talking about.

That would still be like watching a race were the world record get totally shattered but some are still let down because the promise was to cut the world record down for say 4 minutes down to 1 minutes.

 

[Sentinel]

I'd like to add them to my list of IPO's I want in on along with A123.

Can't wait to see these results.....

 

[JoeReal]

How do you watch out for such IPO's? Where to track when it starts?

 

[Jason M. Hendler]

Patience, there are plenty of solutions available, so we needn't hold our breath for these caps.

 

[kubel]

Not really that impressive compared to what is there right now, except that the battery weight would be 10% of lead acid battery that can store the same power.

You have to be very carefully at what was and wasn't mentioned in the article before any conclusions can be made. They did not say that "the battery weight would be 10% of lead acid battery that can store the same power." They said EESU would "weigh less than 10% of current lead-acid batteries for the same cost". So they didn't compare weight-to-range here. They compared weight-to-cost. Very very different.

 

[JoeReal]

You have to be very carefully at what was and wasn't mentioned in the article before any conclusions can be made. They did not say that "the battery weight would be 10% of lead acid battery that can store the same power." They said EESU would "weigh less than 10% of current lead-acid batteries for the same cost". So they didn't compare weight-to-range here. They compared weight-to-cost. Very very different.

It was implied from the article about the 400 km range for the stored power. Were there any mile range mentioned? It was very clear for me, did you read the whole article?

 

[kubel]

No offense, but I think you are forming connections where none are made. You are saying the energy density of EESU is equal to that of PbA, but costs 10% less. I don't see that connection mentioned here.

The article says EESU could replace laptop computer batteries. Can you imagine lugging around batteries in a laptop with the energy density equal to that of PbA? It would weigh a ton and the battery pack required would be insanely huge! So that doesn't make sense either.

Who knows, maybe you are right. But I don't see the connection here, and if I did, it just doesn't make sense in the context of the article. But hopefully we will read more once these test results are published.

I'm excited either way. This EESU promise has lasted too long. It's about time we see something other than speculation and promises. If it works as you suggest, it will still be very useful if for nothing less than an ultracapacitor buffer. But based on everything I've read so far, I'm expecting a little bit more than just a fast charging PbA battery.

 

[JoeReal]

VERBATIM:
"EEStor says its system, combining battery and ultracapacitor technology and based on modified barium titanate ceramic powder, could power a car for 400 kilometres with regular performance. It claims the unit would charge in a few minutes and weigh less than 10% of current lead-acid batteries for the same cost."

its system: could power a car for 400 km
the unit: would charge in a few minutes AND weigh less than 10% of current lead-acid batteries

When used in the same paragraph, its system = the unit

"for the same cost." is ambiguous and it could most likely mean that:
the total price of lead-acid batteries that can deliver 400 km per charge.

 

[DaV8or]

So for all you EESTOR fans; how do they keep the capacitor from discharging? A conventional capacitor discharges whether it's connected to anything or not. For this technology to be of much use in an automotive application, it would need to maintain near 100% of it's charge when not in use over a long period of time. I have a hard time believing a capacitor can do this.

I do believe that capacitors can be used to solve the "quick charge" disadvantage that batteries have over gasoline. Imagine going to the "filling station" and getting a 5-10 minute zap to the capacitor bank. Then, as you drive and go on your way, the capacitor slowly charges the battery pack at the rate that it requires for long life and efficiency.

 

[kubel]

EEStor supposedly came up with a way to have a lower self-discharge than even Li-ion. How? Trade secret, I imagine. I will be interested to see the report to see exactly how well it performs.

 

[kubel]

"for the same cost." is ambiguous and it could most likely mean that:
the total price of lead-acid batteries that can deliver 400 km per charge.

Or "current lead-acid batteries" could mean the PbA pack in the current ZENN car, which has a 30-mile range. That would mean the energy density is about 8x that of PbA (for 250-mile range), which is almost exactly what the specs in my sig suggest, and is exactly what all current data points to. You can't form a conclusion based on this article that says the energy density is equal to PbA without jumping to that conclusion. But again, I'm waiting for the report. Everything until then is speculation.

 

[Joshua Bretz]

So for all you EESTOR fans; how do they keep the capacitor from discharging? A conventional capacitor discharges whether it's connected to anything or not. For this technology to be of much use in an automotive application, it would need to maintain near 100% of it's charge when not in use over a long period of time. I have a hard time believing a capacitor can do this.

I do believe that capacitors can be used to solve the "quick charge" disadvantage that batteries have over gasoline. Imagine going to the "filling station" and getting a 5-10 minute zap to the capacitor bank. Then, as you drive and go on your way, the capacitor slowly charges the battery pack at the rate that it requires for long life and efficiency.

EEstor has been claiming self discharge specs that are much better than batteries. Something like 0.1% per month.

 

[omegaman66]

Even with the self discharge not being as good as batteries (they claim better) this would not be a big issue. Cars would only discharge significantly after they are left up for long periods of time. Who leaves their car for long periods of time at places like the super market. If my car is left for long periods it is usually at home next to an outlet. Airports are the only concern I can think of here and that one isn't a show stopper by a long shot.

 

[Joshua Bretz]

The big question for me is degradation at high & low temperatures. High-K dielectrics usually are not very good.

 

[Joshua Bretz]

I found this "interview" with Richard Weir entertaining:

http://bariumtitanate.blogspot.com/2008/05/to-hype-or-not-to-hype-part-1-interview.html

http://bariumtitanate.blogspot.com/2008/05/how-fast-can-you-partner-part-2.html

http://bariumtitanate.blogspot.com/2008/06/going-into-production-part-3-interview.html

 

[JoeReal]

Or "current lead-acid batteries" could mean the PbA pack in the current ZENN car, which has a 30-mile range. That would mean the energy density is about 8x that of PbA (for 250-mile range), which is almost exactly what the specs in my sig suggest, and is exactly what all current data points to. You can't form a conclusion based on this article that says the energy density is equal to PbA without jumping to that conclusion. But again, I'm waiting for the report. Everything until then is speculation.

Thanks for pointing out that until EEStor comes out with proven specs, everything is treated with skepticism or speculation.

Certainly we can form our own opinions, interpretations, as well as our own conclusions based on credibility of information we come across or data we have gathered and experiences we encountered to name a few. As any standard internet disclaimer goes, no one is forced to believe.

The best way to clarify the energy density of EEStor's system or unit is to communicate with the writer of the original article that the portion of that article is not clear. Recommend to the writer to at least separate disparate facts written in one sentence to make the information clearer. I'm not particular of grammar (definitely the writer would be better than my impromptu unedited posts), just that the information should come across unambiguous to most readers.

And thanks, I'll take note of your word on the energy densities. Just like all information about EEStor, I always just take note of them, not necessarily believe them.

 

[Altazi]

Barium titanate, due to its piezoelectric properties, is also used to make acoustic transducers for sonar - even fish-finders.

Does this mean that the EEStor will "sing" when it is being charged?

I bet someone could hack the firmware on the charge controller to allow an mp3 file to modulate the charge current, and turn the EEStor cap into a big speaker