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Discussion Starter #1
Don't buy anymore new gas powered cars, keep your old used ones, maybe then they will start making the Volt. I think the reason they won't bring out the Volt now is they have so many other gas cars to sell. I think if they put out the Volt now there will be so many people wanting them, just a few would want the gas ones. mike Coos Bay Or.
 

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Same reason they won't make a battery electric

http://www.greencar.com/perspective/electric-car-battery/

Originally printed 1995.

The nickel-metal-hydride (NiMH) joint venture battery program by General Motors and Ovonic Battery Co. appears to be on track for meeting development and cost goals. Robert Stempel, the former chairman of GM now responsible for overseeing the GM/Ovonic collaboration, has been quoted as stating the first EV production line is under construction and will be running by year's end, with expansion of the line possible to meet any demand. While costs will initially be high, Stempel says the cost target of $150 per kilowatt-hour can be met once three-shift, full-scale production takes place. Stempel has contended that NiMH batteries in dedicated EVs can provide a 200 mile single-charge driving range, with battery replacement not required for up to 10 years or 100,000 miles.

When they found how good the car was, they realized the gas cars would not sell.
 

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http://www.greencar.com/perspective/electric-car-battery/

Originally printed 1995.

The nickel-metal-hydride (NiMH) joint venture battery program by General Motors and Ovonic Battery Co. appears to be on track for meeting development and cost goals. Robert Stempel, the former chairman of GM now responsible for overseeing the GM/Ovonic collaboration, has been quoted as stating the first EV production line is under construction and will be running by year's end, with expansion of the line possible to meet any demand. While costs will initially be high, Stempel says the cost target of $150 per kilowatt-hour can be met once three-shift, full-scale production takes place. Stempel has contended that NiMH batteries in dedicated EVs can provide a 200 mile single-charge driving range, with battery replacement not required for up to 10 years or 100,000 miles.

When they found how good the car was, they realized the gas cars would not sell.
I remember seeing Stemple when I worked at the Tech Center. He was the typical bean counter, and could quote any and all numbers at you, but couldn't see the forest for the trees. The one number he never understood about NiMH was its power to weight ratio, which most engineers see, and decided to look for other options.

All these backward looking excercises are pointless, as the auto industry is now on the right path - Li Ion and Hydrogen, which gives you the lightest power storage options available.
 

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I remember seeing Stemple when I worked at the Tech Center. He was the typical bean counter, and could quote any and all numbers at you, but couldn't see the forest for the trees. The one number he never understood about NiMH was its power to weight ratio, which most engineers see, and decided to look for other options.

All these backward looking excercises are pointless, as the auto industry is now on the right path - Li Ion and Hydrogen, which gives you the lightest power storage options available.
What will you say in 2018 when GM (if they at still in business) is still talking about continuing battery research for the next unobtainium battery because Lithium was not good enough?

I won't even bother talking about Hydrogen. It is a non-starter because of cost.
 

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What will you say in 2018 when GM (if they at still in business) is still talking about continuing battery research for the next unobtainium battery because Lithium was not good enough?
Isn't that what they should do? Li-ion is the best we have now, but it's not all that great compared to liquid fuels, so don't you think they aught to keep on the research? I do. I guess because you've bought into the all too convienent EV-1 conspiracy theory you're suggesting that the Volt will only be built in limited numbers and then pulled from the market just so they can sell more conventional cars with the excuse being that better batteries are needed. Not going to happen.
 

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I rhink the reason they are taking dso long is that they want to do it right. I am sure they know that the future of the company is riding in this car, if they screw it up there is a lot to loose.:mad:
 

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Discussion Starter #7
they got it right

The car is great, looks like any other car, maybe the battery needs improvement but they have one that works, they could get the car out now, with the battery they have, and replace it later. I know it would be expensive but so is gasoline We need it now. Mike
 

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Li Ion and Hydrogen, which gives you the lightest power storage options available.
But at what cost? I agree Li-ion is the future (like maybe 2015+), but today we should use whatever gives us the best bang for our buck. NiMH is here and has worked fine in the past. It's working in current hybrids. And don't even get me started on hydrogen. Hydrogen has good energy density by weight, but absolutely horrible energy density by volume. I'm convinced fool-sell is like the flying car. It's something that sounds cool and that everyone will want but will just never work.
 

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Discussion Starter #9
I still say get em out now

If GM mass produces them now, and gets them on the market so we an see them and drive them I think people will buy them. The model A and the model T wasn't what the car of today is, we got to start somewhere, get them out and lets get started in making them what we want them to be, lets get off the oil ride and get on the plug-in ride I'm ready MikeC
 

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Toyota Has More Freedom

The car is great, looks like any other car, maybe the battery needs improvement but they have one that works, they could get the car out now, with the battery they have, and replace it later. I know it would be expensive but so is gasoline We need it now. Mike
You say "but they have one that works". No, No, that's exactly the problem. They used to have one that works but sold it to Chevron for something like $160 million. I'm sure with the sale of those patents they also signed an agreement to never use "Nickel metal anything" batteries in a vehicle. They probably also pledged to never market the EV1 again; especially that pesky 40-mile PHEV they showed at the 1998 Detroit Auto Show (why, that bad bad car would have reduced gasoline consumption 70% by now). Maybe they even got more than $160 million, heck is there any doubt how much profit it has made for the oil companies to have Cobasys sit on those patents and do practically nothing with them. Sometimes things ARE exactly as they seem.

Toyota on the other hand is growing into the plug-in hybrid in a rational evolutionary approach; as I'm sure GM would have done were they free to. The first Toyota plug-in prototypes are powered with NiMH (see http://www.boston.com/business/globe/articles/2007/07/26/toyota_plug_in_hybrid_hits_the_road/ or Google search for yourself). But I certainly hope GM's gamble pays off. It would dig them out of the hole they made for themselves.

I have a friend who owns two 2000 Toyota Rav4 EVs. He and his wife have used them as their daily commuters for the past 4 years, and one has well over 100,000 miles on it with the original batteries. How long will it be before we KNOW that Lithium is that durable in deep discharge daily use?

So what is the real weight disadvantage for NiMH? Standard NiMH has 78Watt-hrs/kg, so a pack big enough to run the Volt is about 450lbs. I spoke with Andrew Ferrah recently but he wouldn't tell me the weight that the Volt pack is coming in at. With the thermal management and cooling systems they need I wouldn't doubt that it adds over 350lbs and is possibly heavier than NiMH would be. The EV1 had 1000lbs of batteries, but these gave it over a 130 mile range, so 400lbs is probably overestimating a bit. Don't know what the rolling resistance, weight and drag differences are.
 

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Doc
Spare us the conspiracy theories and blind speculation on patents and sellouts, it's mostly incorrect and senseless.
FYI GM continues to use NiMH in all of their other hybrids including the "mild" hybrid car platforms as well as the 2-mode SUVs and pickup trucks. GM is scheduled to have a plug-in VUE PHEV using NiMH on the road a full year before the Prius plug-in is currently slated to even appear. The Volt batter pack currently weighs 180kg (see pic)
WopOnTour
 

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Doc
Spare us the conspiracy theories and blind speculation on patents and sellouts, it's mostly incorrect and senseless.
FYI GM continues to use NiMH in all of their other hybrids including the "mild" hybrid car platforms as well as the 2-mode SUVs and pickup trucks. GM is scheduled to have a plug-in VUE PHEV using NiMH on the road a full year before the Prius plug-in is currently slated to even appear. The Volt batter pack currently weighs 180kg (see pic)
WopOnTour
Very small NiMH batteries are used by everyone for hybrids, but large-format NiMH batteries are apparently strictly prohibited by Chevron/Cobasys. Every time someone makes a detailed post about the Chevron acquisition of battery rights you or someone else comes in and says "conspiracy theory" as if that's an actual counter argument. I know you don't want to believe such a dastardly thing could be done to the American people by American corporations but there you have it.
 

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My response is simple
PROVE IT! (I know you can't)
Until then it's more conspiracy theories
WOT
 

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My response is simple
PROVE IT! (I know you can't)
Until then it's more conspiracy theories
WOT
Wow, are you that far gone? Toyota themselves have stated that they can only put in a 1.3kwh NiHM battery because the patent holder (Chevron) would only sell them the right to use the battery to that capacity. It isn't a conspiracy, it's just fact!

Do you really want someone to go look up the patent information? It's a waste of time for "common sense knowledge" which apparently isn't so common anymore...
 

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Wow, are you that far gone? Toyota themselves have stated that they can only put in a 1.3kwh NiHM battery because the patent holder (Chevron) would only sell them the right to use the battery to that capacity. It isn't a conspiracy, it's just fact!

Do you really want someone to go look up the patent information? It's a waste of time for "common sense knowledge" which apparently isn't so common anymore...
It's called "plausible deniability." Chevron/Cobasys claim that they'll build or license batteries for large orders... considering the number of Priuses Toyota sells, that would be a large order. If Toyota really wanted to do it, they'd place the large order. If Cobasys refused it, Toyota could publicize that fact and get some movement on the issue, because it's certainly not hard to make an oil company look bad these days.

I don't know how much I buy into the whole conspiracy theory on this one, but it's at least better than most.
 
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