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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
So they just released the results of the annual reliability survey, and overall vehicle scores have been adjusted accordingly.

Overall scores in the Electric cars/Plug-in hybrids Category:

1. Model S (Score 92)
2. Bolt (77)
2. Prius Prime (77)
4. Pacifica PHEV (76)
5. C-Max (75)
6. Sonata PHEV (74)
7. BMW i3 (66)
8. Mirai (65)
9. Volt (59)
10. Model X (51)
10. Focus Electric (51)
Not Tested: 2018 Leaf, Clarity

Reliability Results:

Well above average: Prius Prime
Above average: Bolt, C-Max, 2018 Leaf (predicted), Mirai, Model S
Average: i3, Model 3 (predicted), Pacifica, Sonata
Below average: Volt
Well below average: Focus, Model X

https://www.consumerreports.org/car...ion/car-brands-reliability-how-they-stack-up/
 

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They didn't score the Nissan LEAF? Our LEAF turns 7 in January and its never been in for a repair. Just new tires, 12v battery, wiper blades, and a cabin air filer replacement - that's it.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
They didn't score the Nissan LEAF? Our LEAF turns 7 in January and its never been in for a repair. Just new tires, 12v battery, wiper blades, and a cabin air filer replacement - that's it.
They didn't score the 2018 yet.

Your experience sounds typical. The 2011 Leaf scores well above average for reliability.
 

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So they just released the results of the annual reliability survey, and overall vehicle scores have been adjusted accordingly.

Overall scores in the Electric cars/Plug-in hybrids Category:

1. Model S (Score 92)
2. Bolt (77)
2. Prius Prime (77)
4. Pacifica PHEV (76)
5. C-Max (75)
6. Sonata PHEV (74)
7. BMW i3 (66)
8. Mirai (65)
9. Volt (59)
10. Model X (51)
10. Focus Electric (51)
Not Tested: 2018 Leaf, Clarity

Reliability Results:

Well above average: Prius Prime
Above average: Bolt, C-Max, 2018 Leaf (predicted), Mirai, Model S
Average: i3, Model 3 (predicted), Pacifica, Sonata
Below average: Volt
Well below average: Focus, Model X

https://www.consumerreports.org/car...ion/car-brands-reliability-how-they-stack-up/
Where are they getting the low reliability conclusion from? If you look at their chart the 2017 is rated Better in all but two categories, the only Average score is in car electronics.

https://www.consumerreports.org/cars/chevrolet/volt/2018/reliability
 

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No possible way the Model S is the most reliable anything. It simply is not reliable. Here are the TrueDela results. https://www.truedelta.com/Tesla-Model-S/repair-frequencies-1095,2012-2017 Other than the Model X I'm not sure any other vehicle has a repair record this bad.

CR simply doesn't have a reliable survey methodology. Too subjective, too prone to bias in the responses, and too irregular. If there was ever any doubt, that doubt was erased when Toyota had all its problems with its vehicles a few years ago. Every insurance company in America was contacting NHTSA complaining about the uptick in problems with Toyota vehicles. The CR ratings were unaffected. IOW if you're supposedly counting meteors, and you miss the largest meteor shower of the century, your meteor count is demonstrably useless.
 

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No possible way the Model S is the most reliable anything. It simply is not reliable. Here are the TrueDela results. https://www.truedelta.com/Tesla-Model-S/repair-frequencies-1095,2012-2017 Other than the Model X I'm not sure any other vehicle has a repair record this bad.

CR simply doesn't have a reliable survey methodology. Too subjective, too prone to bias in the responses, and too irregular. If there was ever any doubt, that doubt was erased when Toyota had all its problems with its vehicles a few years ago. Every insurance company in America was contacting NHTSA complaining about the uptick in problems with Toyota vehicles. The CR ratings were unaffected. IOW if you're supposedly counting meteors, and you miss the largest meteor shower of the century, your meteor count is demonstrably useless.
81 repair trips per 100 cars on a 2017 model S is unacceptable. 2014 was the best year for gen 1 Volt reliability (I was happy about that). It possibly indicated that Chevy/GM learned something along the way. For the model S the TrueDelta rating for 2017 is worse than 2012, and every year reported in between.

I dumped CR a long while back as I thought Jim Guest had ruined it. I fear it may be a very long time before they return to the tenets that made them a somebody in consumer product testing.
 

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Note that the 92% for the Model S is for everything except reliability (the driving test). For the reliability point it is definitely not the best, but they do show it above average now. However, except for one Model year, TrueDelta doesn't agree with Consumer Reports data. Where it appears much worse than average still. TrueDelta generally agrees with Toyota reliability though. So would my personal experience. Although later Toyota's maybe are lower quality than the 80s and 90s ones, they are still very reliable based on my experience. CR might agree with the 2016 data from TrueDelta, which looks much better than other years. What year Tesla are they referring to?
 

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I dumped CR a long while back as I thought Jim Guest had ruined it. I fear it may be a very long time before they return to the tenets that made them a somebody in consumer product testing.
Ditto. CR is about as reliable as the groundhog's prediction on Groundhog Day. I just stay away from them and read consumer feedback online from other "nonbiased" sources.

Mike
 

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I'm not particularly surprised. Just being on this forum leads me to believe that this car is not very reliable overall. That's not to say that some people don't have Volts with no problems -- the data is only an average. Compared to every other car on the list (except maybe the i3), the Volt is the most complex, which likely results in the most problems.
 

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Discussion Starter #10 (Edited)
Complexity must not be the problem. Reliability for Gen 1 has always been average or better. Gen 2 has had some trouble, although the trend is actually improving. It was much worse than average last year.
 

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I have a CR subscription. The Tesla Model S reliability is 3/5. My two cars are a 2015 Volt (reliability 5/5) and a Toyota Mirai (reliability 4/5 - due to lack of data but predicted base on Toyota's generally high quality). Based on my experience, they are both 5/5.
 

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No possible way the Model S is the most reliable anything. It simply is not reliable. Here are the TrueDela results. https://www.truedelta.com/Tesla-Model-S/repair-frequencies-1095,2012-2017 Other than the Model X I'm not sure any other vehicle has a repair record this bad.

CR simply doesn't have a reliable survey methodology. Too subjective, too prone to bias in the responses, and too irregular. If there was ever any doubt, that doubt was erased when Toyota had all its problems with its vehicles a few years ago. Every insurance company in America was contacting NHTSA complaining about the uptick in problems with Toyota vehicles. The CR ratings were unaffected. IOW if you're supposedly counting meteors, and you miss the largest meteor shower of the century, your meteor count is demonstrably useless.
The CR reliability results are based on actual owner surveys. CR collects the data, crunches the numbers and presents the summarized results. Simple as that. As for True Delta, their database is significantly smaller than that of CR. As for Toyota, the problems you mentioned were safety related. We're talking about reliability, right?
 

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Discussion Starter #13
No possible way the Model S is the most reliable anything. It simply is not reliable. Here are the TrueDela results. https://www.truedelta.com/Tesla-Model-S/repair-frequencies-1095,2012-2017 Other than the Model X I'm not sure any other vehicle has a repair record this bad.
I agree there's something strange about the Model S results. TrueDelta and CR are usually pretty close to agreement.

TrueDelta has a reasonably large database for the Model S (163 cars). I wouldn't expect that statistically there'd be much difference from CR's results.

Even looking at more serious chassis and powertrain problems at TrueDelta, the Model S has poor reliability. And no, it hasn't gotten better. 2017s are still terrible.

I'd be tempted to assume that it's just rampant Tesla fanboism leading owners to classify fewer problems as "serious" in their response to the CR survey, but obviously that doesn't explain the Model X.

Anyway, good news is the Bolt did very well and the Volt has improved since last year.
 

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The difference between the Prius Prime and Volt looks bad, since that's the most valid comparison right now. Assuming Clarity comes out in 18, there will be a real competitor to the Volt & pressure on GM to improve reliability & perhaps price.
 

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The difference between the Prius Prime and Volt looks bad, since that's the most valid comparison right now. Assuming Clarity comes out in 18, there will be a real competitor to the Volt & pressure on GM to improve reliability & perhaps price.
Toyota has been eating GM's lunch for a long time. GM's quality/reliability has improved substantially over the years, but they have a long way to go. And no amount of advertising will make up for actual results.
 

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Toyota has been eating GM's lunch for a long time. GM's quality/reliability has improved substantially over the years, but they have a long way to go. And no amount of advertising will make up for actual results.
HA! Right - and considering that the Volt is barely advertised at all... well...

No wonder GM had to idle Volt production.
 

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Every new model car is less reliable its first year out. Most companies learn from that experience and make small improvements the next few years. The Gen 2 Volt was a new model.

If you care about reliability, never buy a car its first model year out. You should let others be the pioneers and learn at their expense, unless you enjoy the adventure of being a pioneer.
 

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Every new model car is less reliable its first year out. Most companies learn from that experience and make small improvements the next few years. The Gen 2 Volt was a new model.

If you care about reliability, never buy a car its first model year out. You should let others be the pioneers and learn at their expense, unless you enjoy the adventure of being a pioneer.
That ESPECIALLY holds true for new Tesla products.

It is nice to see the Bolt at the top of the reliability list despite being a brand new vehicle on a brand new platform.
 

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The Gen 2 Volt was a new model.
This is the under-appreciated truth about Gen 2, as I am discovering with its "teething pain." This is a brand new drivetrain, despite the similar concept to the Gen 1. While they may have learned more about battery maintenance and usage technology from Gen 1, the drivetrain issues with Gen 2 WE early adopters are learning. The jury is still out whether these substantial changes will be more/less reliable long-term than Gen 1.
 

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This is the under-appreciated truth about Gen 2, as I am discovering with its "teething pain." This is a brand new drivetrain, despite the similar concept to the Gen 1. While they may have learned more about battery maintenance and usage technology from Gen 1, the drivetrain issues with Gen 2 WE early adopters are learning. The jury is still out whether these substantial changes will be more/less reliable long-term than Gen 1.
The drive train is one thing, and that's a valid point. But there's no reason overall build and assembly quality should suffer from model to model, even in a first year iteration. This is a process issue, and the japs and germans have that down pat.
 
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