[rhodomel]

Like what I've been saying for a very long time. Charging at public charging stations won't be free forever, and when it's no longer free, as many are now, they bill you, it would be dramatically much more than your electricity rate at home.

The only thing that will make your charging cost the same in public places as at home is when electric utilities themselves build the charging stations funded in part by the government. The aim is to have the same rate.

When the rate is the same and the charging stations ubiquitous, there would be much wider adoption of EV's. And when there's wide adoption of EV's the utilities will have added revenue streams, especially during the off-peak hours when most people would be asleep and their EV's are recharging.

Leave it to the third parties to build the charging stations, it will never be profitable for them as they become the middlemen between the EV owner and the utility. Charging costs becomes higher in order for third party charging stations to become profitable, and in so doing the higher costs of public charging discourages EV adoption. Remember that there are more renters, condo dwellers, than residential homeowners with garage, and they won't be buying EV's if the electricity costs per mile would be more expensive than gasoline costs per mile.

http://www.maltatoday.com.mt/enviro...per_to_charge_your_car_from_home#.WMFz9o7avfA

 

[DonC]

Charging at stations will always be more expensive. Has to be given the costs of the build out and the costs of supplying that much power in a short time (e.g., demand charges are there for a reason).

 

[Neromanceres]

I don't fully agree with your arguments.

First for people with EV's the vast majority of charging will be done at home. And we should be encouraged to do so.
There should be rules governed around affordable charging at apartments, condos and at work places.

However gas stations need to make money to stay in business. And I think it should be the same for public charging infrastructure. Personally I don't mind paying extra for a third party public charging network. Even if I had a vehicle like a Bolt EV it would be rare when I would need to use public charging so for those instances I don't mind paying a premium for the convenience. Let the free market decide where there is demand for public vehicle charging and what is a fair market rate for the service.

 

[BAZINGA]

I wouldn't mind paying more for charging (away from home) as long as I could count on it. But you can't, there is no way I'm taking the tribe in the electric truckster with the current charging infrastructure. Forget crowds, costs, charging speeds, my biggest fear is EV charging spots ICE'd or worse completely INOP with little to no back up.

 

[ItsNotAboutTheMoney]

I don't fully agree with your arguments.

First for people with EV's the vast majority of charging will be done at home. And we should be encouraged to do so.
There should be rules governed around affordable charging at apartments, condos and at work places.

However gas stations need to make money to stay in business. And I think it should be the same for public charging infrastructure. Personally I don't mind paying extra for a third party public charging network. Even if I had a vehicle like a Bolt EV it would be rare when I would need to use public charging so for those instances I don't mind paying a premium for the convenience. Let the free market decide where there is demand for public vehicle charging and what is a fair market rate for the service.

The problem is volume of sales.
Let's say you get 4mi/kWh or 30mpg. (In favor of charging).
Additional occupation overhead 5 minutes. (In favor of charging).
200 mile BEV. Say fill is 100 miles. 25kWh.
300+ mile gasoline vehicle. Say fill is 10 gals.

Gas pumps 5gpm. Fill is 10/5 = 2 minutes giving 300 miles. Total time = 7 minutes. Total miles per minute: 300/7 ~= 42.86
Charging is 50kW. Fill is 25/50/60 = 30 minutes giving 100 miles. Total time = 37 minutes. Total miles per minute: 100/37 ~= 2.7
42.86 miles per minute occupancy for gas.
2.7 miles per minute occupancy for a charger.
Which filling station will have higher per-mile fees?

One way in which charging stations overcome some of that disadvantage is that they can easily be put in existing parking lots with low additional space requirements, which means that they won't have to pay property taxes. (They also don't have the longer term problem of pollution if they close).

 

[Fred_B]

... Personally I don't mind paying extra for a third party public charging network. Even if I had a vehicle like a Bolt EV it would be rare when I would need to use public charging so for those instances I don't mind paying a premium for the convenience. Let the free market decide where there is demand for public vehicle charging and what is a fair market rate for the service.

I also agree with this. The place to charge an EV is at home, while you sleep. A public charging station should only be used if there is no other alternative (you are driving a BEV and run out of charge). And that should happen so rarely that you don't mind paying extra for a conveniently located charging station.

I think the vast majority of people still have the ICE mentality of thinking we need "charging stations" on every street corner, that you drive until the gauge says empty, then pull into a charging station where you fill up in a few minutes. EV's are not like this! With a Volt you would sit there for 4 hours waiting for a 'fill up'. Also, I think people have a hard time envisioning 'filling up' their car at home, while they sleep, because you can't do this with an ICE vehicle (no gas pump in the garage).

 

[khalfyard]

Unless you are shelling out of a Tesla X/S, EVs remain more viable as a second 'commuter' car. We have done a few 'travelling adventures' in the Leaf (in the Summer only!), and hit all the drawbacks, parking garages locked for the weekend, spots ICED or a small queue of other EVs, DC Fast Chargers not working - even a surprise 15km road-closed detour on one major highway which required an emergency '240V top up' to get to the next DCFC. If you want to do a long road trip in an BEV, you have to want the adventure.


But as a second car, drive smooth electric to work and 98% of other trips. Use the ICE (or in our case, the VOLT) for 300+ km round trips, or cross country tours.


Everyone in this thread is 100% correct that the best subsidies/GovernmentMoney would be to mandate, or pay for, ESVEs in all Condos, Apartments, and multi-dwelling buildings, so that people would have no barrier to using this as a city/commuter car.

 

[viking79]

To rhodomel, where are you going with this post?

Are you trying to say that we won't get mass EV adoption in Cities until charging station rates are lower than gas prices? This might be true, but I imagine air quality regulations and such will force the issue. Also, I think it just has to be close in price. Once the initial purchase price on an EV comes down dramatically it won't matter.

In suburbs, as you say, it is very different since most users will charge at home in their garage.

As a counter point I think fleet owned vehicles will become far more popular in cities where they have their own fast charging networks and autonomous operation to shuttle passengers around, so I don't think it will matter in the long run. Even until this point something like the Bolt EVs available through Maven car sharing program, where you just need to be near a garage where the car will charge and borrow it. Don't have to worry about how much it costs to charge etc, as sharing a car and you no longer have the ownership costs.

 

[DrMiguelitoLoveless]

Let's look at the cost of charging on a per mile basis so we can compare apples to apples.

If you own a car that gets 30 miles to the gallon and gasoline is $2.50 a gallon, then it costs you 8.3 cents per mile to drive that car. If you drive an EV and get 3 mile per kWh and a kWh costs 12 cents then it costs you 4 cents a mile to drive that car. So, any price up to 24 cents per kWh hour will be cheaper than gasoline, whether at home or from a third-party purveyor of electrons.

As you can see, you have multiple variables that can affect the issue, such as the efficiency of your ICEV, the cost of electricity in your area (which can be affected by things like peak/off-peak rates), the price of gas and how you drive your cars. I have a solar array, which many people mistakenly assume to mean that my electrical cost is zero. Actually, it is 5.5 cents per kWh, which is the expected output of the array over 25 years, divided by the cost of array. So, in the above scenario, my cost per mile is 1.8 cents.

To be honest I don't think that people being charged for charging is going to slow the adoption of EVs any more than charging for gasoline stopped people buying ICEVs. Grocery stores/ malls, restaurants, etc, may make level 2 charging available for free, to encourage you to shop there, whereas next gen "gas stations" will charge for superchargers for the time convenience.

My wife and I work in a family business with over 100 employees. We have paid for 2 level 2 chargers for our own cars, but have agreed to share/install more and provide them for free to any employee who gets an EV. How much can it cost us? At most 64 cents a day per charger, so we are not worried about the expense.

 

[El Dobro]

Charging stations? Is that some sort of fancy California thing?

 

[llninja]

To rhodomel, where are you going with this post?

Are you trying to say that we won't get mass EV adoption in Cities until charging station rates are lower than gas prices? This might be true, but I imagine air quality regulations and such will force the issue. Also, I think it just has to be close in price. Once the initial purchase price on an EV comes down dramatically it won't matter.

In suburbs, as you say, it is very different since most users will charge at home in their garage.

As a counter point I think fleet owned vehicles will become far more popular in cities where they have their own fast charging networks and autonomous operation to shuttle passengers around, so I don't think it will matter in the long run. Even until this point something like the Bolt EVs available through Maven car sharing program, where you just need to be near a garage where the car will charge and borrow it. Don't have to worry about how much it costs to charge etc, as sharing a car and you no longer have the ownership costs.

Although usually general public goes with what's cheapest, and I am currently not charging at work because $2 per hour for 4 hours is more expensive than putting in a gallon of fuel for the same range. I fully plan to start paying $8 per day once I have my mortgage paid off. I'm willing to pay to be green and do my part to wean our country from OPEC cartel's price fixing. But one thing at a time. Cars paid off. House is next. Then spend on frivolous, unnecessary stuff like overpriced electricity. An obscenely expensive car and a solar panel array comes after that. Who's with me?

 

[Cari]

Most places that would work out in our around town drives are .02 for 30 seconds. That is just stupid high money compared to gas. 4 times the cost of gas to get me same distance??!! It cost me over $9 to fully charge our Volt. Only did that once and never again. There are some free at places that "get it" such as Kohl's and Whole Foods. It is cheap for a business at that level to install given the money we will spend while there for hours.

If marketed right, there is no reason why every mall and shopping center couldn't install one and not charge. We think casinos would be a great place as well. We visited several card rooms in CA and we didn't see any installed at anyone of them. Missed opportunity.

 

[llninja]

Most places that would work out in our around town drives are .02 for 30 seconds. That is just stupid high money compared to gas. 4 times the cost of gas to get me same distance??!! It cost me over $9 to fully charge our Volt. Only did that once and never again. There are some free at places that "get it" such as Kohl's and Whole Foods. It is cheap for a business at that level to install given the money we will spend while there for hours.

If marketed right, there is no reason why every mall and shopping center couldn't install one and not charge. We think casinos would be a great place as well. We visited several card rooms in CA and we didn't see any installed at anyone of them. Missed opportunity.

Charging stations aside, I'd be happy to just have a Whole Foods nearby.

 

[sfatula]

If marketed right, there is no reason why every mall and shopping center couldn't install one and not charge. We think casinos would be a great place as well. We visited several card rooms in CA and we didn't see any installed at anyone of them. Missed opportunity.

I agree with this. There are tax benefits to put them in in many states. And, the incentive here is to attract a certain type of customer in many cases such as it is with Whole Foods. Near me, there is one at a gas station, and it is free. But the gas station has a subway and some other things, so, suspect it's a marketing ploy as well. And they get me, as now instead of going elsewhere when I pass through each Wednesday on a longer drive for medical purposes, I stop in on the way home, and, eat there and get a 3kWh or so charge which gets me the rest of the way home on electric. Might as well plug in while I am there. The 30 cents or so electricity that costs them is nothing. But they have ongoing maintenance of course over time. I am thinking there will be free stations for a long time. But, perhaps some will become non free.

 

[nedfunnell]

I look at public charging the same way I look at coffee. At home, I can make a cup of coffee for 20 cents. Out and about, I expect to pay five times that, at least, for someone else to provide me convenient coffee where I am. Sometimes you might run into free coffee as a courtesy, but that's just a perk from some establishment. I expect to pay, generally, but free sure is nice!

I wish that charging networks and site owners would find a middle ground, though- $2/hr charging for a Volt is like going to Starbucks for a Venti and leaving a $5 tip instead of my 20 cent cup of coffee at home. Way too much!

 

[llninja]

Someone is bound to create a nationwide chain of EV recharging stations where you tie a food court with a big bank of EV chargers as well as gasoline and diesel. Right now the tesla supercharger network is the closest to this, though wouldn't it be neat to have superchargers and j1772s along with go carts and putt putt?