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Railroad locomotives and commuter trains since the 1920's have been serial hybrids. Yeah, it works. It works really well.
 

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also

I'm pretty sure most large ships also run series hybrids. Not necessarily for efficiency, but an electric motor can be quickly reversed to slow the ship and if something hits the blade the shock won't destroy an electric motor like it will an ICE.
 

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Discussion Starter #4
Yeah...So com'on Freightliner, Kenworth, Peterbuilt, Volvo, and all you big truck manufacturers.

A deisel series hybrid design with regenerative breaking combined with Li-ion batteries and a large bank of ultra-capacitors would work great in a big rig.

It may increase fuel mileage quite a bit... and think of the torque you'd get from an electric drive train! We're talk'n POWER BABY!
 

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Yeah...So com'on Freightliner, Kenworth, Peterbuilt, Volvo, and all you big truck manufacturers.

A deisel series hybrid design with regenerative breaking combined with Li-ion batteries and a large bank of ultra-capacitors would work great in a big rig.

It may increase fuel mileage quite a bit... and think of the torque you'd get from an electric drive train! We're talk'n POWER BABY!
Yeah, no doubt... you can really down-size your ICE because all of your low end torque is provided by the electric motor. Also, all of the complexity of the clutching system goes away. And imagine not having to listen to engine brakes.

That battery is going to be pricey...
 

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Well, you guys do realize that the trains and boats that use serial hybrid design today have no batteries right? There really aren't any batteries big enough to handle that kind of power. Li-Ion powered trucks probably will never happen. Electric trucks running from batteries will probably have to come from the next battery technology to come along.
 

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Talk about the power of regenerative braking!

"The energy dissipated in braking a 207-ton locomotive during the course of one year is enough to power 160 households for that year. GE engineers are working on a hybrid locomotive that could capture all that energy and store it for later use. The goal: increase power while reducing fuel use and emmissions"

http://ge.ecomagination.com/site/downloads/hybr/Hybrid_onepager_en.pdf


IIRC, the batteries are made of molten salt. Yes, my memory is still intact on this one:

"GE’s hybrid locomotive cuts both emissions and fuel consumption by up to half by capturing the 207-ton train’s braking energy and using it to supplement the diesel engines to accelerate or climb steep inclines. No modern battery can capture, store, and redeliver that much power, so GE created its own: a 1,000-pound molten-salt cell, which combines sodium with a metal chloride. That chemical recipe allows more current to flow through it than other batteries, so the 20-cell system can deploy 2,000 horsepower in less than a second. The Evolution made its cross-country debut in May and carries its first commercial load in 2010. ge.ecomagination.com"

from:
http://www.isegoria.net/2007/11/cleanest-train-ever-built.htm
 

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Very cool. Seems incredible. I have hard time wrapping my mind around this battery. How big is is physically I wonder? Is it scalable? Hmmmm...

The goal: increase power while reducing fuel use
This is exactly the same reason they ditched steam power for diesel electric. In addition, amazing flexibility with regard to turn around and coupling combinations. Big money savings drives innovation faster than anything. No government required.
 

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Or we could just electrify our trains like Japan does and collect the regenerative braking energy and put it right back on the line for another train to use during acceleration. Kind of like a home solar panel that is grid-tied (no batteries needed). Hummmm. That just makes too much sense. Never mind.



"Dynamic braking can be used on electric railways to convert the energy of the train back into usable power by diverting the braking current into the current rail or overhead line. This is known as regenerative braking. It is used in the same way as rheostatic braking but the energy can be used by other trains requiring power. The power developed by a braking train may not be accepted by the line if no other trains are drawing power so trains equipped with regenerative braking will usually have resistor grids as well to absorb the excess energy. The balance between regenerated current and rheostatic current is also controlled electronical. See also our Electric Traction Pages Page and under Dynamic Brakes in North American Freight Train Brakes."
 

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Well, you guys do realize that the trains and boats that use serial hybrid design today have no batteries right? There really aren't any batteries big enough to handle that kind of power. Li-Ion powered trucks probably will never happen. Electric trucks running from batteries will probably have to come from the next battery technology to come along.
Actually, the only boats that I know of that use the serial hybrid design with ICE engines are submarines and they do use batteries. They use lead acid batteries because the lead is used as part of the ballast. Some of the current production of locomotives is also being built with batteries.
 

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Actually, the only boats that I know of that use the serial hybrid design with ICE engines are submarines and they do use batteries. They use lead acid batteries because the lead is used as part of the ballast. Some of the current production of locomotives is also being built with batteries.



It's actually very common. Here is just one example:

http://www.fischerpanda.de/products/eng/154

Here is a picture of another:




They are also using them on deep drilling rigs to hold the position of the platform to GPS coordinates. The electric drive can rotate 360 degrees and you don't have to worry about the driveshafts. New cruise ships are also starting to use electric drives. Those drives are driven by diesel generators. Hence, series hybrid drive.
 

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It's actually very common. Here is just one example:

http://www.fischerpanda.de/products/eng/154

Here is a picture of another:




They are also using them on deep drilling rigs to hold the position of the platform to GPS coordinates. The electric drive can rotate 360 degrees and you don't have to worry about the driveshafts. New cruise ships are also starting to use electric drives. Those drives are driven by diesel generators. Hence, series hybrid drive.
You did notice they said new and 150kW max. This is for medium sized personal yachts. The propulson systems used on deap water rigs to maintain position are called thrusters. They are like bow thrusters on large boats and are more like ducted fans. Yes they are electric, but they are not the main propulsion for the vessel. The main propultion is still desiel or coal (steam) run through a transmission. For desiel, the transmission is usually 2 to 1.
 

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You did notice they said new and 150kW max. This is for medium sized personal yachts. The propulson systems used on deap water rigs to maintain position are called thrusters. They are like bow thrusters on large boats and are more like ducted fans. Yes they are electric, but they are not the main propulsion for the vessel. The main propultion is still desiel or coal (steam) run through a transmission. For desiel, the transmission is usually 2 to 1.



Oh, you wanted me to put down every application? I thought I provided enough examples so people knew it was not a submarine-only gig (something you eluded to). For the deep drilling rigs the electric drives are the only mode of propulsion. The reason engineers still use direct driveshaft on ships is because it’s more efficient and cost effective to do so. Running a prop in the water does not require huge or complex transmissions like that required by trains or buses. It's fairly simple. The reason they use the "thrusters" is due to their ability to spin 360, come in completed and installable units, etc. Engineering is all about cost (including maintenance) and benefit. However, series hybrid drives are used extensively on land and on sea.
 

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Yeah...So com'on Freightliner, Kenworth, Peterbuilt, Volvo, and all you big truck manufacturers.

A deisel series hybrid design with regenerative breaking combined with Li-ion batteries and a large bank of ultra-capacitors would work great in a big rig.

It may increase fuel mileage quite a bit... and think of the torque you'd get from an electric drive train! We're talk'n POWER BABY!
They will work well, but the effect on fuel consumption will not be dramatic - maybe 10% - 20% is the numbers I've seen. Still worth doing, but limited payback based on fuel. The reason for this is that big rigs run for long extended periods of time a pretty much a constant speed. The extra torque (as already mentioned) and reliability (simpler engine and drive train) are the real advantages. In a car, the fuel consumtion payback for serial hybrids is much higher because the engine only needs to provide 'average' power plus a little. The battery holds the energy to accelerate as needed - but only for a limited amount of time. The key being that the vehicle will be starting, stopping, passing, etc. using the battery for the extra bursts of energy needed. Medium duty trucks (in town and regional delivery), and busses are also good candidates. The advantage (for a long haul truck) is that it doesn't need much in the way of battery or ultracaps. Thus they solution will be cheaper than a car with PHEV.
 

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New to this discussion - Series Hybrids

I’m going to try to add something NEW to this discussion.

“Yes, Series Hybrids do work” but they have inherent problems for which there is a solution that has yet to be implemented outside of its aerospace application.

At present, the Volt design isn’t using this technology, and this technology will significantly reduce both engineering complexity and costs of the Volt if implemented.

While Series Hybrids do work, their weak point is the critical decision to use either a Permanent Magnet (PM) electric motor or a 3 Phase AC induction electric motor to power the wheels of the vehicle.

Permanent Magnet Motors:
1. Degrade in performance at higher temperatures. (power train issue - must be liquid cooled)
2. Use 'rare earths' that come from China (sourcing issues and expensive)
3. Always produce voltage when spinning (safety issue)

Standard 3-phase AC Induction Motors:
1. Have less power density than Permanent Magnet motors (power train issue)
2. Can be either low speed-high torque, or high speed, but not both (power train issue)
3. Can operate at higher temperatures (Better stamina - Can be air cooled)

Are you aware of which one the Volt is using? Are you aware of how the volt is overcoming the problems associated with this motor?

So the design path of a Series Hybrid involves a critical decision as to which set of weaknesses to build into the series hybrid vehicle. However in 2010, if you fly Delta Airlines and are in one of their 737NGs, then you’ll be sitting on top of the solution to the problems of both motors.

The PM solution involves ‘cooling solution’ involving additional engineering/weight (and has to deal with the fact current always occurs when the wheel is spinning), while a 3 Phase AC involves a different power train issue that also require additional engineering/gearing/weight. The problem in this latter case stems from the fact that a 3-Phase AC electric motor simply can’t be both a low-speed high torque motor AND a high speed motor at the same time, and of course that low speed high torque it critical for those cases where a vehicle needs to go from ‘stop’ to being on the Highway. (As a matter of fact, all standard vehicles are built around these 10-15 seconds of maximum power; built in engine power which is rarely used but is still carried around by the vehicle and represents weight/inefficiencies at normal operating ranges. Series Hybrid can use a capacitor bank or ultracapictors for this extra ‘burst’ torque so that this extra power isn’t designed into the motor itself and the solution I propose accommodates that needed ‘overload/startup’ torque.)

There is now a third choice for the electric motor, but until recently it was only available for aerospace www.Wheeltug.com as it is a Multi-Phase AC induction motor that overcomes the weaknesses of the PM and 3-Phase motors.

1. It can operate as both a low speed – high torque motor AND as a high speed motor. Because of this it can even perfectly replace both the starter and the alternator in a standard vehicle, which are normally two separate electric motors. Think of this feature as being a ‘virtual transmission’ that allows this electric motor to forgo standard gearing and overcome the limitations of a comparable 3 Phase AC electric motor.

2. It can provide 10 times the torque (‘burst’ torque) for those times when passing, or accelerating onto the highway is critical. A boost from capacitors (or utlracapacitors) is all that is needed which reduces the batter size requirements.

This electric motor drive, based on the Chorus Electric Motor is called Chorus Meshcon and represents both the motor and the inverter/electronics/software that gives it the capabilities that neither a PM nor a 3 Phase AC electric motor can achieve.

With Chorus Meshcon in the Volt, engineering complexity and weight are reduced

For More Information about this motor in Aeropsace see the
Delta Press Release or go to www.Wheeltug.com and www.ChorusMotors.com

For more information on how this motor can affect Series Hybrids and reduce their costs and complexity so that they can compete on both Price AND Performance with conventional vehicles, visit www.ChorusCars.com.
 

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Aaron:

I recently read something about a recent advance in the production / cost of rare earth magnet motors. I have no idea where at this point, but you seem interested you might poke around.
 

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Discussion Starter #19
WOW Finally done...

;)Hi guys...(and gals)

A little off topic here.

I just launched my new website inspired by GM-Volt.com.

Please take a look and help me promote it. Also, any feedback would honestly be appreciated.

www.boycott-gasoline.com (It's not what you think)
 

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You did notice they said new and 150kW max. This is for medium sized personal yachts. The propulson systems used on deap water rigs to maintain position are called thrusters. They are like bow thrusters on large boats and are more like ducted fans. Yes they are electric, but they are not the main propulsion for the vessel. The main propultion is still desiel or coal (steam) run through a transmission. For desiel, the transmission is usually 2 to 1.
The Queen Mary 2 (150,000 gross tonnes) uses 4 20-megawatt Mermaid propulsion pods that basically work the same way, driven electrically with power provided primarily by 4 huge Wartsila diesel generators. Is that "main propulsion" enough for you?
 
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