It says it only supports 30 amp draw on a single phase circuit. So it is no better than just using the Bolts onboard charger - which supports a 32 amp draw...10KW CCS Combo Portable Charger
Every Bolt sold with DCFC option should come equipped with its own CCS Portable Charger IMHO!
Bolt EV DCFC at home
What would it cost to install DCFC at home?
Are there units suitable for home use? Which brands and models?
I currently have a 40 amp cable to the garage and a 200 amp breaker box,
Do I need three phase power? Digging up the street would be pretty expensive and the HOA would probably not permit overhead lines. Or, is the standard residential distribution line three phase and they just give different legs to different houses?
Or, is the whole ideas unfeasible?
Are there units suitable for home use? Which brands and models?
I currently have a 40 amp cable to the garage and a 200 amp breaker box,
Do I need three phase power? Digging up the street would be pretty expensive and the HOA would probably not permit overhead lines. Or, is the standard residential distribution line three phase and they just give different legs to different houses?
Or, is the whole ideas unfeasible?
21 - 40 of 43 Posts
I suspect these units have a lot more robust build for an external install as well as all manner of bells and whistles not required for a home install. I bet it can be made a lot cheaper for interior residential type install. They will go through the cost reduction cycle that L2 chargers have/are going through.An installation doesn't make sense unless it gets a lot of use. Can you add it to your house, sure. Should you? Not unless you have lots of money you don't need, in which case I'll accept a donation.
Its not just a question of high use. Think about it. A 150kw battery for a heavy duty truck/SUV would take ~24 hours to full charge on present 7.2kw L2 chargers. Even a 25KW DCFC would take ~ 6 hours to full charge.
Uhm... how much HAVE L2 chargers gone through? On an apples-to-apples basis, I mean. A Clipper Creek LCS-25P has gone from being a $1000 item to being a $500 item in five years, but almost all of that was basically "Oops, we have someone to compete with now" and they were less than $600 by 2013. It's not like 25 feet of flex-tolerant cable has gotten cheaper, and the cost of injection-molding a housing doesn't really change when you're only buying them a container load per year instead of per week. So thinking about how much power-handling materials for 25kw cost may be revealing for just how cheap DCFC actually can get. It might not be as flexible as one might like. Maybe it'll NEVER cost less than $5k just because you just need this much copper and this much steel tubing and you have to have a fireproof housing so it can never be injection-molded plastic and will always be a bent sheet-steel assembly, there always has to be a 100amp safety disconnect and those just cost $50 even when you buy a thousand of them, example etc.I suspect these units have a lot more robust build for an external install as well as all manner of bells and whistles not required for a home install. I bet it can be made a lot cheaper for interior residential type install. They will go through the cost reduction cycle that L2 chargers have/are going through.
6 hours is plenty for "overnight". But most "heavy duty" trucks (in quotes because DOT says they're still light trucks) drive even few miles on average per year than cars do. And we know how little that is because that's what Volts are scoped to handle.Its not just a question of high use. Think about it. A 150kw battery for a heavy duty truck/SUV would take ~24 hours to full charge on present 7.2kw L2 chargers. Even a 25KW DCFC would take ~ 6 hours to full charge.
A pickup truck will not need a 150kWh battery.
An easy estimate would be to compare focus vs focus EV - the car is basically unchanged except battery shoehorned in vs purpose built products like i3 and Bolt that have no real comparator.
Using EPA combined values:
29MPG focus = 115mi/30kWh BEV
Guzzling 5.0L F150 = 16 MPG
1.8125x more energy required to drive the F150 than the focus = 54.4kWh, lets say 60kWh.
So your 150kWh battery would be more miles than a Bolt, which is already well above what any one person would do in a day to require home charging to full every night in 8h.
Any long distance travel would be at a commercial DCFC station, again negating the need to have one at home.
You size the charging to your charging needs, not to be able to refill your entire battery in one night that might happen once in a blue moon.
I could have a 150kWh battery and still use my LCS-25 happily every day, even if I drained it to empty one night. By morning I'd have more than enough juice to get me to work and back several times over. My battery would slowly fill each night I charge it with excess. I have no need to be topped up to max in one night, and 99% of the world doesn't either.
An easy estimate would be to compare focus vs focus EV - the car is basically unchanged except battery shoehorned in vs purpose built products like i3 and Bolt that have no real comparator.
Using EPA combined values:
29MPG focus = 115mi/30kWh BEV
Guzzling 5.0L F150 = 16 MPG
1.8125x more energy required to drive the F150 than the focus = 54.4kWh, lets say 60kWh.
So your 150kWh battery would be more miles than a Bolt, which is already well above what any one person would do in a day to require home charging to full every night in 8h.
Any long distance travel would be at a commercial DCFC station, again negating the need to have one at home.
You size the charging to your charging needs, not to be able to refill your entire battery in one night that might happen once in a blue moon.
I could have a 150kWh battery and still use my LCS-25 happily every day, even if I drained it to empty one night. By morning I'd have more than enough juice to get me to work and back several times over. My battery would slowly fill each night I charge it with excess. I have no need to be topped up to max in one night, and 99% of the world doesn't either.
All good points. We will have to see how it shakes out. Just don't dismiss Residential DCFC out of hand is all I'm saying....
WRT the 150kw battery [not kwh btw] I'm thinking more in terms of towing and the work loads I put my Tundra through on a weekly basis. You know the need and more important the upsell desire is going to be there.
WRT the 150kw battery [not kwh btw
] I'm thinking more in terms of towing and the work loads I put my Tundra through on a weekly basis. You know the need and more important the upsell desire is going to be there.Just wanted to add IF DCFC from a home battery to an EV ever becomes a thing, the capacity of the home battery does not need to be the same or greater than the EV battery.
For example if you have a 60kWh battery EV you could still DCFC it from a home 10, 15, or 20kWh storage battery to quickly regain some miles.
For example if you have a 60kWh battery EV you could still DCFC it from a home 10, 15, or 20kWh storage battery to quickly regain some miles.
Did you know San Franciso has a DC power grid?
Yup. You can buy 250 volt DC power right from PG&E. About 1,000 customers do so today.
This is to run 100 year old motors in very old buildings.
With solar panels and BEV's becoming more and more prevalent, there may just be a DC power grid coming to your neighborhood in the next decade or two.
This will make DCFC at home possible at low cost.
Yup. You can buy 250 volt DC power right from PG&E. About 1,000 customers do so today.
This is to run 100 year old motors in very old buildings.
With solar panels and BEV's becoming more and more prevalent, there may just be a DC power grid coming to your neighborhood in the next decade or two.
This will make DCFC at home possible at low cost.
DC-DC conversion is expensive. Transformers which are cheap, only work with AC current. So 250vdc is harder to work with than 460 3-ph (which is actually over 500v).Did you know San Franciso has a DC power grid?
Yup. You can buy 250 volt DC power right from PG&E. About 1,000 customers do so today.
This is to run 100 year old motors in very old buildings.
With solar panels and BEV's becoming more and more prevalent, there may just be a DC power grid coming to your neighborhood in the next decade or two.
This will make DCFC at home possible at low cost.
What I'm getting at is- for 50 years electric street cars, trollys, and busses were 400 VDC. It used to be a common format.
IF we could get automakers to standardize the voltage, building the infrastucture, at least in urban areas is not a pipe dream.
IF we could get automakers to standardize the voltage, building the infrastucture, at least in urban areas is not a pipe dream.
My understanding was that streetcars and trolleys ran off 600V DC.What I'm getting at is- for 50 years electric street cars, trollys, and busses were 400 VDC. It used to be a common format.
Yeah, we have 600VDC for Toronto streetcars.
It would be interesting if they could expand that network to add a DCFC here and there, if future batteries are > 400V.
Pay with your Presto card and everything. Complete transportation system
It would be interesting if they could expand that network to add a DCFC here and there, if future batteries are > 400V.
Pay with your Presto card and everything. Complete transportation system
I'm thinking about moving to a Bolt and wondering if there's a feasible way to get from energy our 14kWp PV system to a DCFC connection with the Bolt. My inverters require grid power to get synchronized 60 Hz AC, so I'd need a DC-DC hookup. We've been on the Tesla PowerWall battery waiting list ever since the product was announced, and never heard a word, but the price doesn't look practical. Is this product something I might want to consider?
I'm thinking that using the Bolt battery charged by the PV-DCFC during outages with an inverter to feed back into the house might be a good solution. I have a semi-Prepper friend with a backwoods off-grid cabin on a good fishing stream who would also be very interested in a PV connected Bolt for transportation during prolonged--ahem--"outages."
I'm thinking that using the Bolt battery charged by the PV-DCFC during outages with an inverter to feed back into the house might be a good solution. I have a semi-Prepper friend with a backwoods off-grid cabin on a good fishing stream who would also be very interested in a PV connected Bolt for transportation during prolonged--ahem--"outages."
That's called a New York reload.High odds it would be cheaper to purchase/insure/register TWO Bolt EVs (always keep one you're not using on the charger) than it would be to get one with DCFC...
If one can get to the Bolt's 60 kWh batteries for a home backup, it looks like the raw cost/kWh for the Bolt (at MSRP after tax credits) may be considerably cheaper than any of the standalone home battery systems like Powerwall 2. Business Insider
I expect (hope) the future to be HV un-regulated DC distribution in the home and grid. It can be done in the home today with Solar, Battery, and DC-DC converters. The battery can be in-home or auto. DC-DC converters are needed anyways between source and battery. Auto (LiIon) batteries today need a varying voltage ramp of 2XX to 400V to charge properly (and a constant voltage for the last 10-20%). The DC part of the battery charging module (inside car or outside), will always be necessary. A solar to battery DC-DC is also necessary to operate the panels at their most efficient power point.
All the above pieces exist today, just very expensive and difficult to inter-operate. Tesla (and others) see the vision, it's just going to take a long time to replace existing infrastructure and make it cost effective. But with our big (EV) batteries and Solar, we've already invested in two of the biggest expenses.
What's needed is a single box that can integrate utility power, DCFC, Solar charge controller, and VTG (vehicle to grid/home). For home use, 10KW for DCFC, solar charge controller, and VTG, is probably a good starting point. They're coming....
All the above pieces exist today, just very expensive and difficult to inter-operate. Tesla (and others) see the vision, it's just going to take a long time to replace existing infrastructure and make it cost effective. But with our big (EV) batteries and Solar, we've already invested in two of the biggest expenses.
What's needed is a single box that can integrate utility power, DCFC, Solar charge controller, and VTG (vehicle to grid/home). For home use, 10KW for DCFC, solar charge controller, and VTG, is probably a good starting point. They're coming....
Blink DC fast chargers have been installed at an average price $22,626, and the lowest registered cost was $8,500 and the highest at $50,000....
That's not a good idea, regardless of what Edison thought. MOVING DC over a distance is hard and makes lots of losses. Transforming AC to different voltages and rectifying AC to DC are trivially easy in comparison.I expect (hope) the future to be HV un-regulated DC distribution in the home and grid.
Aren't they working on it, though.That's not a good idea, regardless of what Edison thought. MOVING DC over a distance is hard and makes lots of losses. Transforming AC to different voltages and rectifying AC to DC are trivially easy in comparison.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-voltage_direct_current
Don't overlook the 1.2 million Volt 850 mile Pacific Northwest DC intertie that went in service in 1970. The reason it's DC is because at that distance and voltage, the losses are lower than AC!That's not a good idea, regardless of what Edison thought. MOVING DC over a distance is hard and makes lots of losses. Transforming AC to different voltages and rectifying AC to DC are trivially easy in comparison.
I worked on the contracts for that project when I was lawyering for the LADWP!
Working on it?...It has been a standard in the rest of the world for years...The Swedes have done major projects with it since the 30s...Aren't they working on it, though.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-voltage_direct_current
Yep...Kennedy finally cleared the path for that project and they decided to use the proven Swedish HVDC technologyDon't overlook the 1.2 million Volt 850 mile Pacific Northwest DC intertie that went in service in 1970. The reason it's DC is because at that distance and voltage, the losses are lower than AC!
I worked on the contracts for that project when I was lawyering for the LADWP!
21 - 40 of 43 Posts
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