BEV vs PHEV
Thoughts? Are the pure electrics judging plug in owners because we aren't going "all in", or do they acknowledge the very real limitations of widespread BEV adoption due to lack of infrastructure?
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The owners or the cars?
My thought is I don't really care what they think. I got what works for my needs. It's a reality that there aren't enough BEVs or infrastructure to support them if the BEVs magically appeared. It seems fairly obvious that if one decides a BEV meets their needs that's what they'll buy. If not, they'll buy something else. Some have posted here about going back to a regular ICE vehicle mostly for features that weren't available on the Volt regardless. The electric drive or efficiency was obviously less of a priority.
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Who cares what us geeks think?
What do you think the EV infrastructure is like in your area?
Is it adequate for an 82 or up to a 238 mile range EV? Can you live with that?
If not get a Volt. It was a stepping stone for me.
If I had to have only one car it would definitely be a Volt.
What do you think the EV infrastructure is like in your area?
Is it adequate for an 82 or up to a 238 mile range EV? Can you live with that?
If not get a Volt. It was a stepping stone for me.
If I had to have only one car it would definitely be a Volt.
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Frankly, I couldn't care less if a BEV owner criticized my PHEV. I'd treat it like a Ford vs. Chevy truck discussion. In the final analysis it 2 things that are much more the same than different.Yes! No! Depends who you ask.
I see a place for both. Pick the right tool for the job, and your budget.
I would love to go fully BEV, but my driving patterns favor a plug in far better. I can do every bit of my daily driving on battery only with the Volt and still have range remaining but I do enjoy occasionally going out of town which would exceed the EPA range for the Bolt without a top off (300 miles one way). If I were to have a backup, I certainly would go with a longer range BEV, but as an only car the Volt really is the best of both worlds and most realistic option for me.
Chevrolet realized very early on what the limitations of hybrids and BEVs were and tried to resolve it.
1) Hybrids had poor performance, and there was a limit to how efficient they could ever become.
2) Batteries are very expensive and very heavy.
3) Most people really only drive about 30 miles a day.
4) Remote charging will take years to compete with ICE refueling.
So, they put a powerful electric motor in the car, but also a less powerful gas engine. They could use a lighter and cheaper battery because it would cover normal commutes as a BEV and burn no gas. The less powerful gas motor would be able to augmented if a buffer was set aside in the battery for it, so it could deliver more than it's rated HP.
It was a stroke of genius, and the most pragmatic solution to vehicle electrification ever devised.
But BEV folk will claim a Volt is 'less than' because it can use gasoline if necessary. Some will never grasp that the Volt is literally 'more than' a BEV. It does what a BEV does but also does what a hybrid can, except better. Better range than a BEV with faster refueling on the road, but better real world gas economy than a hybrid while it's doing it, if you count the typical user over the span of 14,000 miles a year (US average).
The fact that the Volt in BEV mode is quicker than most BEVs, yet gets real world annual mpg that is better than the best hybrid, puts it into a class of one. Nobody has matched it yet.
1) Hybrids had poor performance, and there was a limit to how efficient they could ever become.
2) Batteries are very expensive and very heavy.
3) Most people really only drive about 30 miles a day.
4) Remote charging will take years to compete with ICE refueling.
So, they put a powerful electric motor in the car, but also a less powerful gas engine. They could use a lighter and cheaper battery because it would cover normal commutes as a BEV and burn no gas. The less powerful gas motor would be able to augmented if a buffer was set aside in the battery for it, so it could deliver more than it's rated HP.
It was a stroke of genius, and the most pragmatic solution to vehicle electrification ever devised.
But BEV folk will claim a Volt is 'less than' because it can use gasoline if necessary. Some will never grasp that the Volt is literally 'more than' a BEV. It does what a BEV does but also does what a hybrid can, except better. Better range than a BEV with faster refueling on the road, but better real world gas economy than a hybrid while it's doing it, if you count the typical user over the span of 14,000 miles a year (US average).
The fact that the Volt in BEV mode is quicker than most BEVs, yet gets real world annual mpg that is better than the best hybrid, puts it into a class of one. Nobody has matched it yet.
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I'm guessing the Bev owners are appalled with my other vehicle, a suburban with a 454 cu inch V8. As others stated, I could give a rats ... what they think. I'll buy whatever car I damn well please. The next vehicle purchase should be interesting...
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The window sticker ev mileage rating for my 2012 Volt is 3.37 miles/kWh (35 ev miles using 65% or 10.4 kWh of the 16 kWh battery). The generator under the hood can also supply me with ~10.99 kWh of power for each gallon of gas burned in the engine, providing me with a 350+ mile electric range. Personally, I find it more efficient to drive around with a small tank of generator fuel, relied upon when necessary, than a large battery whose capacity far exceeds my daily driving needs. Reducing the use of fossil fuels may be an admirable goal, but burdening a vehicle powered by an electric motor with a heavy and large battery is not the only method of fueling an electric car.
There is, for example, the Nissan Note e-Power, designed for and, I think, now available in the Japanese urban driving market. This $16K hatchback appears to use a propulsion system that could be described as a plugless Gen 1 Volt that uses the second motor/generator only as a generator to recharge its battery. It is propelled 100% of the time by an electric motor.
There is, for example, the Nissan Note e-Power, designed for and, I think, now available in the Japanese urban driving market. This $16K hatchback appears to use a propulsion system that could be described as a plugless Gen 1 Volt that uses the second motor/generator only as a generator to recharge its battery. It is propelled 100% of the time by an electric motor.
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ALL the plug-in owners at my office have a kinship. There's none of this "I have a PHEV you have a BEV" garbage. We help each other out finding open charging stations when we're out on the road. Heck, we even let the Prius Prime guy into the club--now THAT'S tolerance.
If Tesla owners want to judge me, fine, I can't afford their car. Some Leaf owners who are fanatical about never using gas may, but they probably appreciate the half step. A vast majority of Leaf owners shouldn't because I bet they use more gas than I do, they just do it in their other car as necessary. I recall a study showing the typical Volt owner drives more annual total miles on electric than the typical Leaf owner, because they drive it electric every day regardless of the trip requirements. A Leaf owner has to choose between some electric miles or zero electric miles depending on the day's driving needs.
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I own one of each. The Leaf is my commuter slash city-car, The Gen2 Volt is for cottage runs, and my wife's highway commute. We can use the HOV lanes here in Ontario with either car, and both are quiet, cheap to operate and practically maintenance free. But if I want to pick up and drive to Boston or Tallahassee on a moments notice, we still have that option with the VOLT.
Collectively we are at about 95% Electric Driving, 5% ICE.
Collectively we are at about 95% Electric Driving, 5% ICE.
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I've noticed some tendencies in the language that implies one is better than the other. Often, the word "pure" is applied to a BEV. Does that mean the Volt is unpure? dirty? slutty?
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Muggle....
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...now THAT'S utopian! Fixed it for you.
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It depends.
If you commute greater than 50 miles a day, then only 2 BEVs can reasonably manage that: Tesla and the Chevy Bolt. The Tesla is expensive (at least until the M3 arrives) but has a SC network already in place. The Bolt is cheaper, but the FC infrastructure is inadequate.
If you can't afford the Tesla, and the Bolt's lack of a reliable FC network is a deal killer, then the Volt is probably your best bet, followed by the Prius Prime.
Less than a 50 mile commute then a used Nissan Leaf (2014 or later) is probably your best bet. I have a 2012, and have been driving it daily to work for over two years and had no problems with it, but have lost about 20% battery capacity (a problem with the 2011-2012 MY). I still have around 67 miles of range which is more than enough for my daily drives. That said, this car will be replaced by an M3.
From MY 2016 on, all models of the Leaf except the 2016 S have a larger battery with 107 miles of EPA range. As a newer model is coming out for 2018 (with an as yet unspecified range), Nissan is aggressively pricing these models to sell, so good deals can be had.
I would also take a look at the Hyundai Ioniq when they arrive in your area. It has an EPA range of 124 miles and has gotten pretty decent reviews on "first look" articles.
In the end, your need/budget should inform your choice.
If you commute greater than 50 miles a day, then only 2 BEVs can reasonably manage that: Tesla and the Chevy Bolt. The Tesla is expensive (at least until the M3 arrives) but has a SC network already in place. The Bolt is cheaper, but the FC infrastructure is inadequate.
If you can't afford the Tesla, and the Bolt's lack of a reliable FC network is a deal killer, then the Volt is probably your best bet, followed by the Prius Prime.
Less than a 50 mile commute then a used Nissan Leaf (2014 or later) is probably your best bet. I have a 2012, and have been driving it daily to work for over two years and had no problems with it, but have lost about 20% battery capacity (a problem with the 2011-2012 MY). I still have around 67 miles of range which is more than enough for my daily drives. That said, this car will be replaced by an M3.
From MY 2016 on, all models of the Leaf except the 2016 S have a larger battery with 107 miles of EPA range. As a newer model is coming out for 2018 (with an as yet unspecified range), Nissan is aggressively pricing these models to sell, so good deals can be had.
I would also take a look at the Hyundai Ioniq when they arrive in your area. It has an EPA range of 124 miles and has gotten pretty decent reviews on "first look" articles.
In the end, your need/budget should inform your choice.
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I'm an engineer who has been designing computers since the 1970s when they were the size of refrigerators. I think in terms of tradeoffs, i.e what's optimal with today's technology, tomorrow's and where we would like to be in the future. All tech goes through stages, barely functional, almost good enough, good enough and eventually more than good enough. The Bolt is almost good enough, a Tesla Model S 100D is on the edge of almost good enough and good enough depending where you live. To clarify,
100 mile of less BEVs are at the barely functional stage, they are the Blackberries or Palm Treos of EVs. They can do some jobs well like going to the supermarket and many peoples commutes, but they can't remotely be confused with general purpose cars.
200 pls mile BEVs, like the Bolt, are almost good enough. They can go anywhere in a local region but traveling outside of their region is either difficult or impossible. The DC Fast charge network is very sparse and in many places non existent so a Bolt is limited to places that have charging capability, and even if it exists it's much slower then you would like.
300 pls mile BEVs with an extensive fast charging network qualifies as good enough. In California there are a lot of Superchargers so a Tesla in CA qualifies as good enough. In other places the Supercharger network is no better than the DC Fast network, in Maine for example the only Supercharger is in the wrong place, Augusta, there are none in the Portland area which is where you would want it if you were traveling along the coast, curiously there are several DC Fast chargers in the Portland area. So in New England a $134K Tesla 100D is still in the almost good enough category.
400 mile BEVs with fast charging at every Interstate rest area would qualify as truely good enough, we are probably 5 years away from this.
Today the reality is if you want a car that can operate on electricity much or even most of the time, but can still go anywhere in the world, your only choice is a Volt because it combines a useful, but not optimal, EV range of 53 miles with a good ICE. The Prius Prime can go anywhere but it's EV range is so short that it can't be considered a true EV. Whereas the Volt is an EV that can operate as a hybrid when needed, the Prius is a hybrid which can operate as an EV occasionally.
I think GM has been very realistic about their tradeoffs for 2017, i.e. batteries are still expensive and there is virtually no DC Fast charger network. In this world they offer the Volt, which can go anywhere because of it's ICE, for use as a primary car, and the Bolt which is best for two car households.
100 mile of less BEVs are at the barely functional stage, they are the Blackberries or Palm Treos of EVs. They can do some jobs well like going to the supermarket and many peoples commutes, but they can't remotely be confused with general purpose cars.
200 pls mile BEVs, like the Bolt, are almost good enough. They can go anywhere in a local region but traveling outside of their region is either difficult or impossible. The DC Fast charge network is very sparse and in many places non existent so a Bolt is limited to places that have charging capability, and even if it exists it's much slower then you would like.
300 pls mile BEVs with an extensive fast charging network qualifies as good enough. In California there are a lot of Superchargers so a Tesla in CA qualifies as good enough. In other places the Supercharger network is no better than the DC Fast network, in Maine for example the only Supercharger is in the wrong place, Augusta, there are none in the Portland area which is where you would want it if you were traveling along the coast, curiously there are several DC Fast chargers in the Portland area. So in New England a $134K Tesla 100D is still in the almost good enough category.
400 mile BEVs with fast charging at every Interstate rest area would qualify as truely good enough, we are probably 5 years away from this.
Today the reality is if you want a car that can operate on electricity much or even most of the time, but can still go anywhere in the world, your only choice is a Volt because it combines a useful, but not optimal, EV range of 53 miles with a good ICE. The Prius Prime can go anywhere but it's EV range is so short that it can't be considered a true EV. Whereas the Volt is an EV that can operate as a hybrid when needed, the Prius is a hybrid which can operate as an EV occasionally.
I think GM has been very realistic about their tradeoffs for 2017, i.e. batteries are still expensive and there is virtually no DC Fast charger network. In this world they offer the Volt, which can go anywhere because of it's ICE, for use as a primary car, and the Bolt which is best for two car households.
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It depends. There are BEV purists who are like vegans and genuinely scorn anything with an ICE. I own and appreciate PHEV, and even straight hybrids, though I do *jokingly* call them "gas guzzlers".
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Same here. Got the Leaf in 2014, and the Volt (used) in November. How is your Leaf's battery? That has been my own disappointment. I have dropped a bar each Summer, but as my warranty runs out this coming October, it looks as though I will not qualify for a replacement Lizard battery.
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