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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
So tonight my local city council (which is allegedly a progressive group of legislators) voted to remove 8 EV charging stations that are on street which were installed with Private money including GMs EV charging program. The claim is that these spaces are not in constant use and taking up spaces for all cars.

4 of the spaces are reserved for EV Zip cars and if there are no cars in the space it goes to reason that there being driven to some other point before they are returned to be charged. But what the hell let ICE cars use these spaces, maybe we parents should rent out our kids bed while our kids are in school, why should we care whose in somebody bed, it needs to be used 24/7.

The sad part here beside some irritated ICE drivers yelling and throwing their temper tantrums that spaces are wasted for the EV parking, Those who are yelling will not benefit from the freeing up the spaces. The area I live in. will never ever have a enough on street parking no matter how many spaces are liberated. Its like musical chairs with parking here, cars drive around the block waiting for a space and this will not change with 8 spaces being put back to use. But lets encourage more ICE cars instead of trying to limit their presence in areas like this. London created congestion parking, I would love to see something like that here, but that ain't going to happen.


But my biggest gripe is these progressive pols are still betting on the ICE cars without realizing dense urban areas are ideal for the EVs, as most rides are local or within 20 mile range. Add that to the congestion which translates to tail pipe emissions, coupled with tall buildings which create ideal conditions for manmade inversion layers. Not to mention the increase heat that ICE cars create and the oils that spill from ICE cars, (take breath) as well as the higher rates of asthma and chronic pulmonary issues you would think these Pols would be encouraging EVs , instead of making it more difficult for EVs to be on our streets, I would think they would look forward and add more EV spaces..

Oh well I needed to vent and complain about this hypocrisy.
 

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I think it is time to pick up the phone and start harassing those city council members. Where do you reside?
 

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Public EV charging will be under constant controversy like this. It started back when the government stimulus money was available and those awarded charge station grants, when faced with a choice between placing them in the front of the park lot in prime spots or in the back, less used spots, chose the front. Kinda, " look at me I'm green!" And thereby pissed off many ICE drivers desperately seeking parking who think " those damn green weenies". Which is what makes extended range EVs like the Volt the proper choice. No charge station? Just burn a little gas until you get home. End rant.
 

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Public EV charging will be under constant controversy like this. It started back when the government stimulus money was available and those awarded charge station grants, when faced with a choice between placing them in the front of the park lot in prime spots or in the back, less used spots, chose the front. Kinda, " look at me I'm green!"
I think it all came down to economics. Placement at front of the lot is just a heck of a lot cheaper than installing a much longer run (trenching, cable, pavement repair) out to the boonies.
 

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Why don't they just park their ICE vehicles in the EV spaces (like everyone else seems to do- I see this literally every day)?

I understand the dispute over parking. It is a scarce resource and the number of voters who drive EVs is a tiny minority. From the standpoint of small town politics, it is suicide to side with the EV folks.

I really don't understand why the town would remove the charging equipment rather than just removing the signs that restrict the parking there. Far more expensive to remove the equipment, and either one achieves the stated goal. And the town still gets to keep a slight claim (even if not really true) to being green and progressive by having the equipment.

This is just another reason I believe that public charging is never (in my lifetime, anyway) going to really be a reliable resource. If I own an electric vehicle, I need to be able to charge at home and have enough range to cover virtually all of my round-trip driving needs. This is why after looking closely at the Leaf a couple of years ago, I bought a Volt.

By the way, my small town put in a charging station, but they did it right. It is not on the street. It is in the back of a parking lot that is a block off of the main street. It also happens to be within view of the police station, which might be a deterrent to illegal parking there.
 

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In an urban environment it makes sense to ensure that available street parking is maximized. EVs are ideal urban vehicles but the charging infrastructure needs to be improved. Off-street, fee based, CCS and DC Fast Charging stations will help. An app would direct the EV owner to the closest available CCS/DC Fast Charging space. The charging spaces would be metered and the cost would be tiered to incentivize efficient use of the charging parking spaces.
 

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Why don't they just park their ICE vehicles in the EV spaces (like everyone else seems to do- I see this literally every day)?

I really don't understand why the town would remove the charging equipment rather than just removing the signs that restrict the parking there. Far more expensive to remove the equipment, and either one achieves the stated goal. And the town still gets to keep a slight claim (even if not really true) to being green and progressive by having the equipment.

This is just another reason I believe that public charging is never (in my lifetime, anyway) going to really be a reliable resource. If I own an electric vehicle, I need to be able to charge at home and have enough range to cover virtually all of my round-trip driving needs.
The problem for cities is that much of their populations rely on on street parking which makes Level 2 charging impractical because if you have a small number of chargers you have to restrict their use to EVs which pisses off the majority of drivers who own ICE cars or you need to install a large number of chargers so that EVs can find one when they need it, but that's wildly inefficient because the number of EVs is so small. However if the don't have a charging infrastructure in place people won't buy EVs so the numbers will remain tiny. A more practical solution for cities are Level 3 chargers because they make much better use of space than Level 2 chargers and land is expensive in cities. In fact Level 3 chargers are more practical for cities than gas stations which require much more land. You can put Level 3s in supermarket parking lots because they only require a few parking spaces, gas stations require dedicated lots. The Boston Globe had an article a few months ago about the disappearance of gas stations from Boston, there are hardly any left. Gas stations are a low margin business and the land is simply much to valuable to waste on them, they gave the example of a Gulf station on Beacon Hill, the lot was sold for $19M.

For now EVs are mostly going to be a suburban phenomena, EVs in cities will be limited to the very wealthy who own their own parking space and to the moderately wealthy who can rent a space in a garage that will either install an EV themselves or will allow a tenant to install one.
 

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Discussion Starter #10 (Edited)
I live in a section of downtown Jersey City which is 4 mins by ferry or train to downtown NY. Here are the EVSE units in question. The 4 that are for the public use are fee based, 4 others are reserved for Zip EVs.
 

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The problem for cities is that much of their populations rely on on street parking which makes Level 2 charging impractical because if you have a small number of chargers you have to restrict their use to EVs which pisses off the majority of drivers who own ICE cars or you need to install a large number of chargers so that EVs can find one when they need it, but that's wildly inefficient because the number of EVs is so small. However if the don't have a charging infrastructure in place people won't buy EVs so the numbers will remain tiny. A more practical solution for cities are Level 3 chargers because they make much better use of space than Level 2 chargers and land is expensive in cities. In fact Level 3 chargers are more practical for cities than gas stations which require much more land. You can put Level 3s in supermarket parking lots because they only require a few parking spaces, gas stations require dedicated lots. The Boston Globe had an article a few months ago about the disappearance of gas stations from Boston, there are hardly any left. Gas stations are a low margin business and the land is simply much to valuable to waste on them, they gave the example of a Gulf station on Beacon Hill, the lot was sold for $19M.

For now EVs are mostly going to be a suburban phenomena, EVs in cities will be limited to the very wealthy who own their own parking space and to the moderately wealthy who can rent a space in a garage that will either install an EV themselves or will allow a tenant to install one.
My observation is that you don't have to have a gas station in Beacon Hill in order for ICE cars to operate there. They can fuel elsewhere and still drive into and out of Beacon Hill without needing to fuel there.

By the same token, you don't need public charging in a city for EVs to operate there. It is possible for them to be charged elsewhere and still move through that city. For instance, maybe a downtown employee lives in the suburbs, charges there overnight, and drives round trip without charging away from home. These problems can be solved by range rather than fueling infrastructure.

Obviously, as an EV driver, I am supportive of public charging. I am just being a realist about it. I see driving range increasing while public charging infrastructure per registered EV seems to be falling (based on my observation).
 

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Discussion Starter #12
For now EVs are mostly going to be a suburban phenomena, EVs in cities will be limited to the very wealthy who own their own parking space and to the moderately wealthy who can rent a space in a garage that will either install an EV themselves or will allow a tenant to install one.
For now that is the reality, but it need not be. For many people including renters who live in Brownstone/Rowhouse neighborhoods, there should be no reason for them to have to rely on ICE vehicles if on street charging options were available. Cities like Baltimore and Seattle have them and it works.

As for the rich being the only ones to afford these vehicles, the whole point of On street charging is allow different socio-economic sectors a chance to own EVs. Prices have plummeted on used Leafs and Volts and new affordable EVs are coming on line now with more coming through in the next several years. If a little nurturing inner cities should be able reap the benefits of EV driving. Unfortunately it takes vision and patience which is severely lacking these days.
 

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Discussion Starter #15 (Edited)
I see where Jersey City is putting in more charging stations and also has proposed an "anti-ICEing" law.

http://pluginsites.org/anti-iceing-ordinance-proposed-in-jersey-city-nj/
First that is a proposed ordinance that is not going to pass does not have the votes, mainly because the ordinance in which I speak, calls for removal of EV spaces . Further even if it passes it will be a completely meaningless ordinance in that it will only effect on street parking and city own lots that do not have any EVSE stations nor any designated EV spaces now or proposed. Pure PR BS. The ordinance has no effect on private property which is where all other EV charging stations are located. Parking lot management has the control over these EVSE stations.

But the real kicker is the only on street EVSE parking currently on public streets is slated to be removed by another ordinance which is the one i am referring to which requires opening those spaces to all cars. And the sad part it looks as if this ordinance has the votes to pass. it will have another hearing next Thursday. If this makes sense to you welcome to bizarro land.
 

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It’s not really that easy to write a municipal law restricting who can park where (think of spots marked "Compact Car Only!" What, exactly, is a "compact" car?) I seem to recall there was an Arizona law at one time that restricted the recharging spots to vehicles that required electric fuel to operate, thus excluding Volts.

Here in Oregon, the legislature apparently passed a law, effective in January 2016, designed to punish by fine those who park in spots designated for alternative fuel vehicles only and are not engaged in the fueling process. The law covered parking spaces that were on premises open to the public and that were marked or signed as reserved for alternative fuel vehicle refueling.

I don’t recall seeing any such parking spots in Portland over the past year posted with signs reading "alternate fuel vehicle refueling only." Would such spots require the presence of all alternate fuel refueling capabilities, and not just electric recharging? How would a car running on natural gas be entitled to park in a spot next to an L2 charger?

No legal language appears to have been created that attempted to define "engaged in the fueling process." If my car is plugged in but fully recharged, am I in violation of the law? Could I park a propane-fueled vehicle there? If the big-box store across the street was a propane depot, could I park in the spot and run across the street to exchange my tank (i.e., "I’m parking here while I’m refueling my vehicle")?

When electric recharging becomes a profitable business, some of these issues will go away.
 

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Talk to someone in the city and find out when they'll be auctioning off the removed units. I bet you can get one for a real bargain! :)
 

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The lengths to which EV haters will go to discourage owners of plug-in vehicles is ridiculous. My HOA banned electric vehicle charging even though parking spaces in the garage are all filled only during major holidays like Thanksgiving and Christmas. The president of the HOA accused me of using $3.00 of electricity every day, despite the fact that I only use 6 KwH on my daily commute. I was granted permission from my own work agency leadership to charge at an outlet in the parking lot. I used 1 to 2 KwH per day, then covered the rest of the daily demand at home after a charging station was installed a few blocks away. The leader of the agency in control of the outlet and street lamp in the parking lot was so furious that he cut power to the lighting system in our parking area. That is one way for an agency to save money. Another way is to not sand the roads during snowstorms.
 

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It’s not really that easy to write a municipal law restricting who can park where (think of spots marked "Compact Car Only!" What, exactly, is a "compact" car?)
That part is easy: http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/findacarhelp.shtml#epaSizeClass

USUALLY, you'll find the answers to all these kind of philosophical questions have already been dealt with by some government or industry standard already. You might not like the answer, but it's been answered.
 

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That part is easy: http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/findacarhelp.shtml#epaSizeClass

USUALLY, you'll find the answers to all these kind of philosophical questions have already been dealt with by some government or industry standard already. You might not like the answer, but it's been answered.
Indeed, your referenced source illustrates my point. The EPA Size Classes used in the Fuel Economy Guide identify only three classes of Cars: Two-Seaters, Sedans, and Station Wagons. Neither the Chevrolet Spark nor the Chevrolet Aveo Hatchback meet the definition of "Car." I would hesitate to classify either one of them as a "Special Purpose Vehicle Truck."
 
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