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the Saudis are repeating the trick they pulled in the mid-'80s, allowing oil prices to plunge in response to Western supply increases, thus depriving their rival (Iran) and ours (Russia) of revenue -- and, in the process, temporarily tanking the U.S. shale industry. It would be nice if we could escape this cycle...
And the American people have a short memory. Plus, in this go around we don't have gas lines.

But the chart is interesting:
Li-On Storage Capacity trend.jpg
 

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And the American people have a short memory. Plus, in this go around we don't have gas lines.

But the chart is interesting:
View attachment 69385
And it's got better.

This is why it frustrates me when environmental groups push too hard now for renewables or get in the way of projects that can aff8rdably help renewables: pick your battles and do not do anything that will get in the way of plug-in vehicles. You want to do everything you can to help plug-in cars, because they will help begin the virtuous cycle of cost reduction for cars and static storage.

The next 10 years are going to be awesome for energy.
 

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Steverino
"the Saudis are repeating the trick they pulled in the mid-'80s, allowing oil prices to plunge in response to Western supply increases, thus depriving their rival (Iran) and ours (Russia) of revenue -- and, in the process, temporarily tanking the U.S. shale industry. It would be nice if we could escape this cycle...
And the American people have a short memory. Plus, in this go around we don't have gas lines. "

I know this is not a history forum, but what you state is a fallacy. Falling oil revenues were due to a myriad of reasons including world economic issues, including a major world wide recession, the aftermath of oil shortages of the late 80's, increase oil production throughout Canada, Mexico, US and Indonesia to name a few which led to the implosion of drilling for shale oil here in this country. We also had Paul Volcker of the fed in this country that wish to stem the tide inflation by raising the interest rates the fed lent at, which slow the rapid rate of inflation and it worked. This was not engineered by OPEC or their biggest producer Saudi Arabia.

I should add that it caught most of OPEC by surprise and did a number on their economies as well. Some believe OPEC lost most of its clout during this period.

One other small point, many russian experts believe the drop in oil prices led to the implosion of the Soviet Union economy leading to the demise of the Soviet Union. This may also happen to Iran's theocracy.

Be that as it may, we need to get off fossil fuels for oh so many reasons.
 

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I see oil as a fuel to generate energy, but Lithium cells as a measn to store it, not generate it. So if we really want to live without oil, we need to generate energy cleanly FIRST. This means we have to replace all our obsolete thermo-electric generating plants with nuclear, solar/steam, hydro-electric or large-scale wind turbine farms or photo-electric installations. Then as electricity can carry that energy to every home, we live with all our electric appliances and our battery-electric vehicles (without oil, the Volt will be limited).
 

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I see oil as a fuel to generate energy, but Lithium cells as a measn to store it, not generate it. So if we really want to live without oil, we need to generate energy cleanly FIRST. This means we have to replace all our obsolete thermo-electric generating plants with nuclear, solar/steam, hydro-electric or large-scale wind turbine farms or photo-electric installations. Then as electricity can carry that energy to every home, we live with all our electric appliances and our battery-electric vehicles (without oil, the Volt will be limited).
I don't think there are any commercial thermo-electric generating plants. Fossil fuel plants typically produce steam to spin turbines, same as what happens in a nuclear plant.
 

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I don't think there are any commercial thermo-electric generating plants. Fossil fuel plants typically produce steam to spin turbines, same as what happens in a nuclear plant.
When I meant "thermo-electric", I mean fuel burning plants. Here we have four, and only one has been converted from bunker fuel to natural gas. But that is still a "fossil" fuel.
 

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When I meant "thermo-electric", I mean fuel burning plants. Here we have four, and only one has been converted from bunker fuel to natural gas. But that is still a "fossil" fuel.
Ok. But Thermo-electric more specifically means heat directly into electricity, for example RTGs, Radioisotope Thermoelectric Generators. With the exception of gas turbines and NG or diesel ICE, steam is produced to spin turbines.
 

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Steverino
"the Saudis are repeating the trick they pulled in the mid-'80s, ...
Actually, I agree with you. The Saudi's and OPEC did not engineer the current situation, it caught them by surprise and they as well as the other oil producers have no choice but to keep production levels steady while they tread water with their nose barley above the water. They can't reduce production to force up prices because someone else would fill the shortfall leaving the Saudi's with even lower income on lower volume. The Saudi's are hurting but they have billions in reserves they can draw upon, hoping to ride it out longer than everyone else. I doubt some of the US fracking industry will survive. At a minimum expect consolidation, worker layoff's, etc.

At the same time, a side affect of low oil prices is to lull drivers into increasing their dependency on oil by using the low gas prices to buy lower gas mileage cars an trucks. The Saudi's are happy to see this of course. When the world economy firms up, so will demand for oil and prices will rise again, catching the drivers of new "gas hogs" unaware—a bit like they were surprised in the 70's. Now is the time to buy even more efficient cars, not less efficient ones.

I also agree that a side affect of lower oil prices is starving Putin of revenue. It'll be harder to afford costly excursions into neighboring countries. Middle East terrorists have also seen a revenue drop from their oil trading as have Venezuela and Iran, etc. The oil revenue drop is likewise negatively affecting the economies of Alaska and Texas.

So yes, we should be going even stronger into high efficiency cars, but we as a country are rushing in the opposite direction instead.
 

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I don't know about everywhere else, but at least my price of electricity is stable and has not change much for several years. The less gas oil I have to buy, the better.
 

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I don't know about everywhere else, but at least my price of electricity is stable and has not change much for several years. The less gas oil I have to buy, the better.
Electricity costs here have seen fairly steady but slow climb of 1-2%/year over the last 15 years. It is nice to have a predictable expence to drive and at an average of less than 8cents per kwh it is much cheaper than gas will ever be.
 

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Actually, I agree with you. The Saudi's and OPEC did not engineer the current situation, it caught them by surprise and they as well as the other oil producers have no choice but to keep production levels steady while they tread water with their nose barley above the water. They can't reduce production to force up prices because someone else would fill the shortfall leaving the Saudi's with even lower income on lower volume. The Saudi's are hurting but they have billions in reserves they can draw upon, hoping to ride it out longer than everyone else. I doubt some of the US fracking industry will survive. At a minimum expect consolidation, worker layoff's, etc.

Your absolutely right now it is even more important to increase efficiencies in all areas of the economy, especially now. But the American people fall back into bad habits. Sadly even in this forum we see everyday people who are more willing to use the ICE partition of the Volt over the EV due to the cost of gas.
At the same time, a side affect of low oil prices is to lull drivers into increasing their dependency on oil by using the low gas prices to buy lower gas mileage cars an trucks. The Saudi's are happy to see this of course. When the world economy firms up, so will demand for oil and prices will rise again, catching the drivers of new "gas hogs" unaware—a bit like they were surprised in the 70's. Now is the time to buy even more efficient cars, not less efficient ones.

I also agree that a side affect of lower oil prices is starving Putin of revenue. It'll be harder to afford costly excursions into neighboring countries. Middle East terrorists have also seen a revenue drop from their oil trading as have Venezuela and Iran, etc. The oil revenue drop is likewise negatively affecting the economies of Alaska and Texas.

So yes, we should be going even stronger into high efficiency cars, but we as a country are rushing in the opposite direction instead.

I agree with you, now more than ever we should be seeking greater efficiencies in cars, trucks while weaning ourselves off fossil fuel vehicles. Sadly though people have a tendency of falling back into bad habits. Its always easy to start a bad habit then to stop it. Regretfully even on this forum, I read that people are more and more willing to not charge over using their EV partition of the Volt in order to save some pennies. I understand the need to save money, what people don't realize if you pay up front the cost on the back end is going to be less. In the case of Volt drivers, from eventual higher fuel prices to the cost of maintenance on their ICE.
 

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I agree with you, now more than ever we should be seeking greater efficiencies in cars, trucks while weaning ourselves off fossil fuel vehicles. Sadly though people have a tendency of falling back into bad habits. Its always easy to start a bad habit then to stop it. Regretfully even on this forum, I read that people are more and more willing to not charge over using their EV partition of the Volt in order to save some pennies. I understand the need to save money, what people don't realize if you pay up front the cost on the back end is going to be less. In the case of Volt drivers, from eventual higher fuel prices to the cost of maintenance on their ICE.
People do indeed have short memories and with $1.75 gas and $.10 / KW electricity locally my Volt's fuel costs / mile are rapidly catching up to mid-sized hybrid cars (Camry or Accord Hybrid) or comparably sized pure ICE cars let alone the Prius. But, I still enjoy the EV driving experience and convenience of not having to go to gas stations except for road trips. I think Tesla has the right idea for EVs: Make the vehicle a best in class car which happens to be electric. For the Bolt, I was really hoping GM would make it a best in class competitor for the CUV sweet spot of the market. I think that is what it will take for EVs to sell well unless/until gas prices rebound.
Of course when battery prices get low enough EVs will be cheaper to make than comparable ICE cars and a lot more reliable and durable. Then EVs can't help but to sell well.
 
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