GM Volt Forum banner

1 - 20 of 25 Posts

·
Banned
Joined
·
7,289 Posts
Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)

Pretty in-deph video on the Bolt's Euro twin.

Of note: DC charging rate is stated to be 50 kW

And if I heard the guy right (accented English), he said they expect "maximum capacity" for the "lifetime of the vehicle". So they believe the Bolt may be able to maintain 100% capacity for at least 8 years/100k miles if taken care of properly!
 

·
Administrator
Joined
·
19,974 Posts
Slightly different styling for Europe? :)
renault-captur-2013.jpg
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,405 Posts
It has the steering wheel button for following distance setting and it knew the speed limits.

Odd. Why do you need following distance adjustment? Where did it get the speed limits?
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
7,289 Posts
Discussion Starter #4
It has the steering wheel button for following distance setting and it knew the speed limits.

Odd. Why do you need following distance adjustment? Where did it get the speed limits?
From the NAV system that hasn't been announced yet? Interesting.

As for following distance, doesn't Forward Collision Alert have an adjustable setting?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,192 Posts
And if I heard the guy right (accented English), he said they expect "maximum capacity" for the "lifetime of the vehicle". So they believe the Bolt may be able to maintain 100% capacity for at least 8 years/100k miles if taken care of properly!
Just as a note I believe he stated that the car will continue to put out maximum power for the 8 year warranty. The Bolt EV battery pack will have a warranty of 62% capacity after 8 years/100K miles. I believe this was mentioned in the raw video from the Washington post test drive. Also keep in mind that 62% is likely under severe conditions (high heat with many DC fast charges and many deep battery cycles).

Of note too bad they didn't get braking in Drive (D) on video. They did mention the use of the regen paddle while in drive. And the video shows braking in L.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
14,156 Posts
If it really is 62% after eight years then this would be in Nissan Leaf territory. Not worthy of a recommendation. But I'm not sure he said that, I thought he said the design goal was maximum capacity for the whole period. Likely you don't get there but 62% is surprisingly low.

Also, did he say 0-100 km in 7.5 seconds. That seem slower than I believe quoted here, which is 6.5 seconds or something like that.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,192 Posts
If it really is 62% after eight years then this would be in Nissan Leaf territory. Not worthy of a recommendation. But I'm not sure he said that, I thought he said the design goal was maximum capacity for the whole period. Likely you don't get there but 62% is surprisingly low.

Also, did he say 0-100 km in 7.5 seconds. That seem slower than I believe quoted here, which is 6.5 seconds or something like that.
My apologies it's 62% after 10 years (CARB required warranty). But keep in mind almost nobody will see that level of degradation. The average user will likely still have over 90% after 8 years. The Volt BTW is warrantied for 70% after 10 years or 150K miles and we haven't seen anyone hit that level of degradation with their high milage Volts.

To hit that 62% number you would probably need to do 175 miles a day in Arizona heat with at least one DC Fast charge a day.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
14,156 Posts
My apologies it's 62% after 10 years (CARB required warranty).
Most batteries are considered EOL when they hit 80% of capacity. One of the great things about the Volt is that I haven't seen any real loss of range. Maybe a couple of miles in six years, but it's hard to say because the new tires make a much bigger difference. Of course we have to expect some degradation -- it's the nature of the chemistry -- but roughly 40% would be extremely high. It would keep me from being in the first set of buyers. Maybe a lease. A short one!

An interesting point on the relationship between DCFC and degradation. When the Leaf came out Nissan identified DCFC as a major reason the battery would degrade faster. In practice that turned out not to be the case. Didn't seem to matter much at all (one owner used DCFC twice a day an some of course never used it). Will be interesting to see if this holds true for the Bolt EV.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,409 Posts
The battery degradation required to trigger the warranty is not 70% of the total capacity, it is 70% of the available capacity. So in the case of a 2012 Volt it is 70% of 65% or 45% of the 16Kwh or 7.28 Kwh.
 

·
Senior Member
Joined
·
1,308 Posts
Most batteries are considered EOL when they hit 80% of capacity.
The 80% is just a uniform battery industry testing convention. The battery doesn't suddenly become unusable after that. A car that starts with 80 miles and degrades to 80% or 64 miles may no longer work for an owner who was just barely making it but a Bolt EV at 80% is still 190 miles and if power were to degrade to 80% it would still be 160 HP which is about the same power and the same weight as a gen 2 Volt.
 

·
Senior Member
Joined
·
1,308 Posts
My apologies it's 62% after 10 years (CARB required warranty).
It is 8 years. The CARB battery warranty requirements do not apply to all-electric cars, just hybrids that have fossil fuel engines in them.

The broader point about battery degradation is true. Batteries degrade from calendar time and from cycling. Calendar time degradation speeds up at higher state of charge and temperature. Cycling hurts more when the battery is drained deeply and fully recharged but is less degraded when repeatedly drained and charged shallowly. A large battery is much less likely to be regularly fully drained and recharged so it will tend to see less cycle damage. Also, because it is large even at 500 cycles it would represent upwards of 119,000 miles of driving at 238 miles per full cycle. Most charge cycles will drain and charge over a 15-25% state of charge range.
 

·
Senior Member
Joined
·
1,308 Posts
Of note: DC charging rate is stated to be 50 kW

And if I heard the guy right (accented English), he said they expect "maximum capacity" for the "lifetime of the vehicle". So they believe the Bolt may be able to maintain 100% capacity for at least 8 years/100k miles if taken care of properly!
He also said its normal for all Lithium-ion batteries to have gradual battery capacity loss. My guess is that for many owners it will be around 85%-90% after 100,000 miles and more if that happens over a full 10 years due to calendar time losses. The battery will likely not need to be replaced over the typical 15 year industry lifetime of the car and even after that will still be drivable at somewhat reduced but still totally reasonable range and power as a "clunker" used car for years after that.

As for 50 kW charging, yes GM continues to refuse to talk about the car's actual charging ability when connected to DC chargers capabable of more than 125A. We will have to wait to find out more on that in the future.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
14,156 Posts
The 80% is just a uniform battery industry testing convention. The battery doesn't suddenly become unusable after that.
No argument on that, but I don't expect any BEV to degrade almost 40% over eight years. That would be nuts. Especially given that, as you point out, with 238 miles of range, if you drove 10K miles a year you'd only be putting the cells through 40 cycles.

No. The forward collision warning camera system can read speed limit signs and that is likely where the speed limit display data is coming from.
The ELR shows the speed limit but that's not always correlated with the signs. Or at least I don't think it is. Sometimes it is -- changes right at the sign -- but sometimes not. I've assumed it's in the map data. Maybe I should tape over a sign and test! LOL
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
90 Posts
238 miles per charge is not realistic.
Most people will use heat and air conditioning entertainment / information system and headlamps.
All these things drain power while at stops... hours and hours (many kWh used) without adding any miles to the odometer.

Also, most battery manufacturers will tell you 1 charge 20% to 100% puts on the same wear and tear as four sessions of charging 80% to 100%. I will probably opportunity charge as much as possible at the lower charge rates. I work 12 hour shifts, so can get 12.5 hours of plug time (for free) on 120 VAC. That should net 48 miles per day. I will probably use heat and A/C so if that is not enough, It will be so close I may only have a net loss of a couple miles a day. I will then use a public Level 2 to fill up about once per month. I'm considering not buying a Level 2 for home use as I will rarely need it.

The broader point about battery degradation is true. Batteries degrade from calendar time and from cycling. Calendar time degradation speeds up at higher state of charge and temperature. Cycling hurts more when the battery is drained deeply and fully recharged but is less degraded when repeatedly drained and charged shallowly. A large battery is much less likely to be regularly fully drained and recharged so it will tend to see less cycle damage. Also, because it is large even at 500 cycles it would represent upwards of 119,000 miles of driving at 238 miles per full cycle. Most charge cycles will drain and charge over a 15-25% state of charge range.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6,464 Posts
238 miles per charge is not realistic.
Most people will use heat and air conditioning entertainment / information system and headlamps.
All these things drain power while at stops... hours and hours (many kWh used) without adding any miles to the odometer.
Really? 238 miles in the Bolt should be roughly equivalent to 40 miles in the Gen 1 Volt and 53 miles in the Gen 2 Volt, and last I check, plenty of Volt owners are regularly exceeding EPA estimates.
 

·
Senior Member
Joined
·
1,308 Posts
The ELR shows the speed limit but that's not always correlated with the signs. Or at least I don't think it is. Sometimes it is -- changes right at the sign -- but sometimes not. I've assumed it's in the map data. Maybe I should tape over a sign and test! LOL
I had an "after market" version of the Mobileye system used by GM installed on my 2011 Volt. It is completely independent of the Volt's builtin NAV and I'm fairly confident that the Mobileye unit doesn't have its own GPS and builtin NAV map with speed limits. Yet, it happily reads the speed limit signs and will show them on a smartphone app. The manual makes it clear that the Mobileye is reading the speed signs with its forward-looking camera. You have to tell it whether to look for US or European style road signs.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
90 Posts
Anyone catch in the end of the video the driver says it has a 160 kW motor?
He says this twice.
And at one point he called it a 204 horsepower motor.

The USA media materials call it a 150 kW / 200 horsepower motor.


Maybe one more case of under promise and over deliver???!
 
1 - 20 of 25 Posts
Top