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It is not impossible. You guys make is sound like we can't come up with technology to make it work. I understand physics and the laws of Thermodynamics but you can't tell me that it won't work. Regardless of the laws of physics. According the laws of physics, a bumblebee should not be able to fly but they do.

With rotation of the axel [sic], you could generate enough power to recharge the system and to provide power to internal systems. However, you cannot use a standard alternator that is currently in use by automobiles. This is an idea that is being discussed at great length by engineering students in the University I attend.
Actually, we CAN tell you that it won't work. As has been said by several previous posters, you can't get more out of a closed system than you put in.

I once considered the exciting concept of an electric motor driving a generator, which created the electric power to run the motor. Excess energy could be taken from the generator to run other devices! After thinking deeply about it for several minutes, I intuitively realized it wouldn't work. Not bad for someone who was six years old at the time.

Forty-some years later, with a degree in physics and having almost 30 years experience in electronic design does tend to give one a certain understanding of how things work, what WILL work, what WON'T work, and WHY.

You may discuss these things in University, but surely you must discuss their severe failings immediately after.

Not only does your statement, "It is not impossible. . . I understand physics and the laws of Thermodynamics but you can't tell me that it won't work" show an inappropriate level of understanding, but your attitude invites attacks.
 

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Its the Efficiency Stupid

Physics has nothing to do with the planet still relying on combustion engines in some form or another. Can argue that till the cows come home.

Look, I am not trying to argue with you guys. I am simply stating that we have relied on combustion engines for more than 100 years and we can get away from them.
It's the Efficiency Stupid - This is not a personal comment; I'm paraphrasing Bill Clinton's famous comment, "It's the Economy Stupid".

The problem with the internal combustion engine is the way we use it in cars today which yields about 8 to 15% efficiency. When fully loaded (i.e. the throttle isn't stangling the air supply) an ICE engine can get as high as 45% efficiency. 10% vs 45% means 25 MPG becomes 112MPG. But how do we get to 45%?

You run the Volt's generator at it's maximum efficiency point, store the electric power in the batteries (or use it immediately whenever possible) and get 92% efficiency from the battery back to the wheels. You never run this ICE at idle, you never cruise with the engine at 5% load, and instead of engine braking (which sucks gas in with the air even though you don't want any power) you use regenerative braking to put energy back in the battery instead of burning up brake pads. The combined improvement in efficiency is more like 600%, which is born out by the EV operating cost of 2cents per mile vs about 15 cents you are getting with a gas engine.
 

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What about.....

Ok Jkozee, I'll see if I can deflect some fire from you.

How about this for an idea guys. Now, I am no scientist or physicist, I am just an IT nerd who likes cars, and loves the idea of an EV.

What about this for harassing some power off the tires. Say you wrapped a wire coil around the Axel of the vehicle. This would have to be attached to the outside, unmoving portion of the axle (if it was applied to the rotating portion, you would simply rip up your wires). Now, if you could get this coil on the axle into the rim of the tire, and you had 4 permanent magnets, say top, bottom, left and right on the inside of the rim, then would you be able to generate a bit of electricity from the magnets orbiting the wire coil?? Pretty much it would be a reverse electromagnet.

Now, I have no delusions that this would be lots of power, it would come no where close to replacing an ICE, but it may be enough to, say, power my iPod or cell phone, right?? Maybe run my stereo system??

Hum, I suppose that would probably up the cost of the rims a bit, maybe a bunch, and you would be adding a bit of weight to the car, and then there is always the issue of balance also........but it's a though.

Also, probably has a very low coefficient of friction (yes, that sounds smart!!) so it shouldn't effect the car too badly in that manner. It would be most useful on the highways I guess, not when you are doing the stop and go in town. Or so I would think.

Comments??
 

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No Way to Win

Ok Jkozee, I'll see if I can deflect some fire from you.
More like jump INTO the fire with him ;)

How about this for an idea guys. Now, I am no scientist or physicist, I am just an IT nerd who likes cars, and loves the idea of an EV.
I like IT nerds. I'm something of a nerd myself :)

What about this for harassing some power off the tires.
I think you meant "harnessing", but it's quite funny as you wrote it :) Maybe even appropriate, as you consider my following explanation.

Say you wrapped a wire coil around the Axel of the vehicle. This would have to be attached to the outside, unmoving portion of the axle (if it was applied to the rotating portion, you would simply rip up your wires).
Wrapping the wire AROUND the axle, moving or non-moving, would be pointless as the magnetic field would be misaligned with respect to the motion of your rotating magnets. Look up "right-hand rule". Anyway, I understand what you are thinking. On with the attack. . . Good-naturedly, of course!
Now, if you could get this coil on the axle into the rim of the tire, and you had 4 permanent magnets, say top, bottom, left and right on the inside of the rim, then would you be able to generate a bit of electricity from the magnets orbiting the wire coil?? Pretty much it would be a reverse electromagnet.
I like the idea of a "reverse electromagnet". In fact, I like it so much, I think I will call it a "generator" ;) Since there are no brushes, it would be an AC generator. No problem, we can convert the AC to DC with the application of some electronic magic. But. . . (and here's the problem with your idea) if you attempt to take energy out of this system, even a tiny bit, it will place a drag on the vehicle. In effect, that is what regenerative braking is doing. Have you ever cranked a hand-powered generator? They turn effortlessly until you put a load on them.

Using your wire-and-magnet system could possibly extract energy from the moving vehicle, but ultimately this energy had to come from either the battery or the ICE. In fact, you couldn't even recover all of the energy used, do to the unavoidable inefficiencies incurred in the real world. "But what about going downhill?", you might ask. My answer: the energy required to get the car UP the hill had to come from somewhere, like the battery or the ICE.
Now, I have no delusions that this would be lots of power, it would come no where close to replacing an ICE, but it may be enough to, say, power my iPod or cell phone, right?? Maybe run my stereo system??

Hum, I suppose that would probably up the cost of the rims a bit, maybe a bunch, and you would be adding a bit of weight to the car, and then there is always the issue of balance also........but it's a though.

Also, probably has a very low coefficient of friction (yes, that sounds smart!!) so it shouldn't effect the car too badly in that manner. It would be most useful on the highways I guess, not when you are doing the stop and go in town. Or so I would think.

Comments??
Sadly to say, there is no way of taking "extra" energy out of the system. The best we can do is to try to approach 100% efficiency in a closed system.

My friend always call me when they want to know why something that they thought of won't work.

Regards,

Altazi
 

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We all use alternators every single day in our vehicles and they are belt driven. But if we used the same sort of idea in a battery powered vehicle it would serve the same purpose it does now, recharges the batteries and provides power to the electrical systems in the vehicle. The belt system would be operated by the movement of the axle in the vehicle. Thus eliminating any need for a combustion engine of any sort.
Dumbest post.. ever!
This would only work for a car that was only driven downhill.
 

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You need to use a generator not alternator. And you need to use something like the wheels or a driveline, that way when your driving 55mph the rpm's on the wheels and or driveline would produce enough torque. Also you would not be taking and power from the engine like you would and ALT. You could eliminate the Gas engine and make the car self sufficent.
 

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You need to use a generator not alternator. And you need to use something like the wheels or a driveline, that way when your driving 55mph the rpm's on the wheels and or driveline would produce enough torque. Also you would not be taking and power from the engine like you would and ALT. You could eliminate the Gas engine and make the car self sufficent.
Please tell me you are either joking or 11 years old or something. If you really believe that a car could ever be "self sufficient" you have some schooling to do.
 

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Ok Jkozee, I'll see if I can deflect some fire from you.

How about this for an idea guys. Now, I am no scientist or physicist, I am just an IT nerd who likes cars, and loves the idea of an EV.

What about this for harassing some power off the tires. Say you wrapped a wire coil around the Axel of the vehicle. This would have to be attached to the outside, unmoving portion of the axle (if it was applied to the rotating portion, you would simply rip up your wires). Now, if you could get this coil on the axle into the rim of the tire, and you had 4 permanent magnets, say top, bottom, left and right on the inside of the rim, then would you be able to generate a bit of electricity from the magnets orbiting the wire coil?? Pretty much it would be a reverse electromagnet.

Now, I have no delusions that this would be lots of power, it would come no where close to replacing an ICE, but it may be enough to, say, power my iPod or cell phone, right?? Maybe run my stereo system??

Hum, I suppose that would probably up the cost of the rims a bit, maybe a bunch, and you would be adding a bit of weight to the car, and then there is always the issue of balance also........but it's a though.

Also, probably has a very low coefficient of friction (yes, that sounds smart!!) so it shouldn't effect the car too badly in that manner. It would be most useful on the highways I guess, not when you are doing the stop and go in town. Or so I would think.

Comments??
Canada Man,
Your physics is way optimisitc but the basic idea of mounting the generator in the wheels is pretty cool, and oh since a generator and electric motor are basically the same beast why not put a 160HP motor in EACH wheel (640 HP maximum) and run the car on them. Now you've got the car in this link: http://www.autoblog.com/2006/07/21/pml-s-mini-qed-boasts-640-in-wheel-electric-horsepower/2 . Or Just Google "PML Mini Cooper Electric in-wheel motors" and prepare for a few hours of fascinating reading.

Apparently the only drawback is a rough ride since the heavy wheels are "unsprung" weight. And of course it would be crazy expensive because they insisted on giving it 150 miles electric range (600 miles total range when you add 5 gallons of gas). But it is a series hybrid, like the Volt, so if they cut the 150 miles to 40 they could give the Volt some competition (in fact, blow it away; with a 0-60MPH time of 4 sec).
 

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No place for optimism!

Please let's not confuse "optimistic" physics with just plain bad or goofy physics.

You can be as optimistic as you want, but that won't change the laws of thermodynamics. ;)
 

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If you know how to create energy, you will become extremely rich

It's not possible to create energy. Energy in the axles comes from the batteries and this energy is used to move the car. Then, remaining energy in the axles is zero and no energy can go back to the batteries.
I'm sorry but if you know how to create energy, you will become extremely rich.
 
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