[JStrnad]

The red base unit was exactly what I was looking for, and Rick offered a terrific deal on it. I'd have been there this morning with cash in hand but for one fly in the ointment: the car has been registered to the dealer, and Rick couldn't assure me that it would qualify as a new car and thus qualify for the government rebates: $1500 from the state of California and $7500 from the Fed.

Without the rebates, this used car would cost me $650 more than a new one!

I know this issue has been examined here before, but I never found a definitive answer. I've found anecdotes about "it worked for me," but with $9000 at stake, I'm not willing to chance it.

 

[firehawk72]

The red base unit was exactly what I was looking for, and Rick offered a terrific deal on it. I'd have been there this morning with cash in hand but for one fly in the ointment: the car has been registered to the dealer, and Rick couldn't assure me that it would qualify as a new car and thus qualify for the government rebates: $1500 from the state of California and $7500 from the Fed.

Without the rebates, this used car would cost me $650 more than a new one!

I know this issue has been examined here before, but I never found a definitive answer. I've found anecdotes about "it worked for me," but with $9000 at stake, I'm not willing to chance it.

Unless California is different in some fashion from all the other states, this should be the question? Has the MSO ever been surrendered? If the car still has an MSO, then you would be the first title holder and would get the tax credits. Anything else is, NOPE.

 

[JStrnad]

I did speak with someone with California's rebate program and she was unequivocal about it: If the car's been registered, even to a dealer, it's now considered a "used car" and does not qualify for the rebate. Sad.

 

[firehawk72]

I did speak with someone with California's rebate program and she was unequivocal about it: If the car's been registered, even to a dealer, it's now considered a "used car" and does not qualify for the rebate. Sad.

I can't speak for the state rebate, but I can speak for the federal rebate. The car can be labled used, but it is the MSO that determines if the car has had a title holder. My car was sold as used, but the MSO had never been surrendered, which makes me the original Title Holder. Don't know what Keyes did, but if they had to surrender the MSO to register it then yes it would not qualify for the federal tax credit. Really, the MSO is the only true way to know if you are the original title holder.

My first question would have been, "Does this car still have the MSO? And will you give me a copy of it proving that I am the original title holder?"

 

[JStrnad]

First, I had to Google "MSO." I've been buying cars for decades and I've never encountered an MSO. It simply hasn't figured into the process in any way that was noticeable to me.

I guess car dealers know what it is.

Now, if the car dealer can assure me that I'll get the tax credit with an MSO, I might (MIGHT) go for that. The problem I have is finding anything in writing about the Federal Tax Credit that mentions MSO's.

Then, when I talk with someone with the State program, they also don't mention MSO's, only registration, and tell me that, no, the car doesn't qualify for the rebate.

That leaves me in a very tenuous situation. I've dealt with the government enough to know how arbitrary they can be, especially if I can't point to a particular and very specific sentence in a document that sets out what the rules are, and even then the outcome depends a lot on who you're talking to (as anyone who's ever talked to the IRS looking for clarification on a tax rule knows--you can talk to three agents and get three different answers).

It often seems to be that it's dicey enough getting what's clearly yours from the government without entering into situations where they can arbitrarily say no, leaving you with no recourse. I'm afraid that if I tried to protest, "But I have an MSO!" the person I was talking with would be as unfamiliar with MSO's as I am.

So, I appreciate Rick's coming onto the forum to offer deals, and I may very well buy a NEW Volt from Rick at some future date, but I can't see taking a $9000 risk on a service loaner, not without getting it somehow approved in advance for the rebates.

 

[firehawk72]

First, I had to Google "MSO." I've been buying cars for decades and I've never encountered an MSO. It simply hasn't figured into the process in any way that was noticeable to me.

I guess car dealers know what it is.

Now, if the car dealer can assure me that I'll get the tax credit with an MSO, I might (MIGHT) go for that. The problem I have is finding anything in writing about the Federal Tax Credit that mentions MSO's.

Then, when I talk with someone with the State program, they also don't mention MSO's, only registration, and tell me that, no, the car doesn't qualify for the rebate.

That leaves me in a very tenuous situation. I've dealt with the government enough to know how arbitrary they can be, especially if I can't point to a particular and very specific sentence in a document that sets out what the rules are, and even then the outcome depends a lot on who you're talking to (as anyone who's ever talked to the IRS looking for clarification on a tax rule knows--you can talk to three agents and get three different answers).

It often seems to be that it's dicey enough getting what's clearly yours from the government without entering into situations where they can arbitrarily say no, leaving you with no recourse. I'm afraid that if I tried to protest, "But I have an MSO!" the person I was talking with would be as unfamiliar with MSO's as I am.

So, I appreciate Rick's coming onto the forum to offer deals, and I may very well buy a NEW Volt from Rick at some future date, but I can't see taking a $9000 risk on a service loaner, not without getting it somehow approved in advance for the rebates.

Perfectly natural for you to not know what an MSO is. With buying a car, this was never an issue UNTIL the federal tax credit came into play. I specifically called the IRS about this and talked to them before I purchased mine way back in the day

No reputable dealer would give you any qualms about a copy of the MSO.

 

[Paul]

Although the MSO would help determine if the vehicle has been registered, the practical issue for both CA and Federal is whether the dealer, or anyone else, claimed the rebate or tax credit. Both the state and IRS run a check to see if the VIN has been issued a rebate or tax credit.

 

[firehawk72]

Although the MSO would help determine if the vehicle has been registered, the practical issue for both CA and Federal is whether the dealer, or anyone else, claimed the rebate or tax credit. Both the state and IRS run a check to see if the VIN has been issued a rebate or tax credit.

The Tax Rebate (Federal) only goes to the original title holder. The MSO must be surrendered to apply for the original title. If a car dealership still has the MSO, it is good to go as far as the IRS is concerned. If the MSO has been surrendered, then the car does not qualify for the federal tax credit.

 

[tripowergto 2010]

Think of the MSO as a temporary document that secures a title in any given state. If the dealer still has the MSO, the IRS can be satisfied and you will qualify to get the $7500 tax credit. No MSO = no tax credit.

 

[MIKECELI]

"Unless California is different in some fashion from all the other states"................

YOUR KIDDING, RIGHT?

 

[firehawk72]

YOUR KIDDING, RIGHT?

Well, I know California is definitely different however, I was ONLY referring to how they handle an MSO/MCO

 

[ChiVolt]

I did speak with someone with California's rebate program and she was unequivocal about it: If the car's been registered, even to a dealer, it's now considered a "used car" and does not qualify for the rebate. Sad.

Interesting. We bought a 2017 Volt that was a service loaner. It was registered, but never titled. My conversation with the dealership went something like this:

me: Has the car ever been titled?
dealer: no
me: So I would be entitled to the $7500 tax rebate?
dealer: yes

At this point we have already received the $7500 from Uncle Sam. "MSO" never entered our conversation. Has the car been titled yet (not registered)? No? You get the federal tax credit. Period. Who knows what California's up to with their rules...

 

[water0033]

We had called California clean air state rebate dept and the staff said: "if car has been registered for service loaner or marked as used/pre-owned on the paper, then we CAN NOT get any $1500~$3500 clean air rebate" which makes the service loaner more expansive than the brand new volt, unless you are making more than $250k per year which does not get state rebate in any condition due to high income, but I wonder if those people would get "service loaner" or even any chevy?

Also had called irs people before, they confirmed that $7,500 only goes to the first "registered owner" and car also has to be marked "brand new" when sold to first owner, so there's some grey area about it, maybe that's why some forum members got the $7500 tax credit for service loaner.

 

[winchipper]

Actually, California is not an MSO state so we never have to surrender and can always order from Chevy. We do not claim and have never claimed any State or Fed rebates on any of our vehicles. We also refuse to give advise and ask our customers to check with their own accountants or such to be certain what is available to them. This has always kept me out of hot water. This happens to be why we lease the majority of service loaners. Our leasing company obviously collects on the Fed rebate and offers us the same deals to pass on to the customers. The factory passes on some additional savings for the DRAC program and I pass on to my customers. Thus the Volt wheel keeps turning. I hope that helps a bit?

rick
818 231 1286
cell

 

[firehawk72]

Actually, California is not an MSO state so we never have to surrender and can always order from Chevy. We do not claim and have never claimed any State or Fed rebates on any of our vehicles. We also refuse to give advise and ask our customers to check with their own accountants or such to be certain what is available to them. This has always kept me out of hot water. This happens to be why we lease the majority of service loaners. Our leasing company obviously collects on the Fed rebate and offers us the same deals to pass on to the customers. The factory passes on some additional savings for the DRAC program and I pass on to my customers. Thus the Volt wheel keeps turning. I hope that helps a bit?

rick
818 231 1286
cell

Actually, that doesn't help at all. So, how can a consumer tell if the car has never been titled in California? Are you saying that MSO/MCO are not important in California? I find your post terribly confusing. As a dealer you should EASILY be able to tell a customer if the car has ever been titled, which in turn would allow the customer to know if the car qualifies for the federal tax credit. I would consider anything else to just be sleazy...

 

[winchipper]

No I am not kidding! In fact when we sell cars to other states we need to order MSO to be able to send them. They do not get sent like they do in most other states. Check me if you like, but you will find out I am 100 percent correct.

Thank you

Rick