[llninja]

Lots of discussion already

http://gm-volt.com/forum/showthread.php?293425-Gen-3-Volt-may-be-a-Crossover-EREV

 

[TheBlueFlash]

There's only so much GM can do to control how the press spins this.

A lot of stories will be written in the next few days on the Volt's impending demise. Expect to see examples at CleanTechnica and Electrek, as well as the typical anti-green car suspects.

In contrast, Green Car Reports has a nice, balanced view which is more "Good news! Sounds like the CrossVolt is coming."

http://www.greencarreports.com/news...th-plug-in-hybrid-crossover-crossvolt-at-last

A VoltX just like that new Buick TourX!

 

[TheBlueFlash]

The gen 1 was the best car for me in 2013. I also drive 50 miles round trip per day, but netting 70 mpg over the 20 mpg I used to get has been a big deal. If my gen1 was totaleled in a fiery crash, I wouldn't buy another g1, but maybe a g2, ELT, or CT6 PHEV even though the Caddies still wouldnt' get me to work and back on all electricity. Just waiting patiently for that breakthrough vehicle. The model3 and bolt compromise too much on space. The S and X are too pricey (as are the Cadillacs). Ther seems to be a big chasm in the mid sized $40-60k range vehicle that is sorely missing. Lots of small cars and big cars, nothing just right.

There's the Fusion energi that you could consider a mid-size, however the 19 miles of EV range is pretty lousy compared to the Volt, but hey if you really want that extra space, that car does technically exist, with a few trade-offs.

 

[Neromanceres]

GM has been committed to vehicle electrification. Seeing the potential elimination of the Volt post 2022 might simply mean that a halo car is no longer required and the technology can go mainstream. Personally I hope to see a Voltec CUV. I also hope the next generation Cruze has a Voltec option. Ideally I would like to see Voltec and BEV solutions all across the lineup. So while the rumor of the Volt going away will scare some people who have become attached to these awesome vehicles. Personally as long as the technology lives on and expands I will be happy.

People need to keep in mind these are product plans post 2022. By then there will be a D3XX vehicle platform. We are talking about the next generation vehicle lineup.

 

[BAZINGA]

I'm not concerned, by 2020 we will know if Tesla has succeeded and what the other mainstream manufactures are offering. We could have have many great choices by then so I'm not surprised to read the Volt (as sold today) might not be the Volt they will be selling in 3 years.

That's Progress.

 

[Billtphotoman]

I don't know. Do you think 34 miles is enough? Maybe flick a bic under GM. I think GM can do better if they apply themselves to it. Maybe I'm being overly optimistic.

The PHEV CUVs that have been launched (primarily luxury makes) seem to be selling pretty well with *way* less than 34 miles. I think a 40 mile AER city Voltec Equinox is doable at today's battery prices let alone by 2020. I think if they wait until 2022ish the model Y may run away with the market. For us, either 30 miles of AER city for a PHEV or 200 miles of range for a BEV would be fine. Given the range Tesla got out of the very non-aerodynamic previous generation RAV4 with their conversion I am perplexed by the lack of progress in bringing a PHEV or BEV CUV sized for the sweet spot of the market out since then. If GM had made the Bolt about a foot longer and 2 inches wider I think we would be at the 200 mile mass market CUV sweet spot.

 

[canehdian]

I think perhaps too much has been read into this as being GM repeating the EV1 decision. I think GM has invested too many resources to kill the technology and will likely take the Voltec powertrain or a variation of it and install it into other models.

Which is what I've believed for years now.
All these threads asking 'what will gen 3 have', my response has been that I don't think there will be a gen3. There will just be voltec offered in many traditional models as the transmission choice. No more need to be a separate vehicle entirely as their platforms will all have been updated to be ready for electric from the beginning.

 

[llninja]

Which is what I've believed for years now.
All these threads asking 'what will gen 3 have', my response has been that I don't think there will be a gen3. There will just be voltec offered in many traditional models as the transmission choice. No more need to be a separate vehicle entirely as their platforms will all have been updated to be ready for electric from the beginning.

I sure hope that is true, especially since in 2013 when I bought the volt, fuel was near $4 per gallon and many people were going to smaller cars to save. Last weekend while driving through Tennessee I spotted regular at $1.83 per gallon. Americans in general have forgotten the $4 fuel prices and have returned to pickups and SUVs. If gas prices went to $5 per gallon instead of $2, I'm sure volt sales would have been more brisk.

I think the general consensus was that OPEC dropped oil prices to make fracking less cost effective with hopes that we stop fracking and then they can raise prices again. It also had the side effect of causing people to not be so Eco conscious when buying their next vehicle.

I would love to have more Voltec choices than the volt, a used ELR, the Malibu hybrid, and the CT6 PHEV (I've found a dealership in Atlanta offering $10k in incentives not including the fed tax credit - so $17.5k off at this time). I'm waiting it out to see if we can get to $25-27.5k off.

 

[llninja]

Then you can be one of the 16 or 20 people buying one in whatever month you buy. Sales of CT6 PHEV are possibly the most abysmal of all for a new Cadillac model.

You know, it sounds good but every time a model is offered in 2 configurations, the hybrid one is more expensive and sales of that version are very poor. CT6 is just another example.

I chuckle at the i-miev numbers. I do wonder if the CT6 numbers would be better if they sold them in all 50 states. The 4-5 states where you can buy one really restricts the marketplace. Plus I don't get why Atlanta gets the CT6 PHEV beFore Chicago. What brainiac came up with that plan. And I think we determine that it was supposed to be Arizona and not Arkansas also feeling the love. I think they really missed the mark at the $75k price (just like they did with the ELR). That is so close to the Model S price that you might as well go for the Model S. I'm sure the Caddy will be more luxurious than the spartan interior of the S, and it takes a special person to like the CT6 PHEV.

As for Ev vs. non-EV, maybe the tact to take is to go all in and only sell BEVs and PHEVs and do away with pure ICE. It would be a giant shock to the system, but if every spark, sonic, Cruze, Malibu, Impala, Silverado, Tahoe, suburban, vette, Camaro had the low end torque of the volt (adjusted with the right sized motor and engine for the platform) and they were able to knock down the;price difference, then everyone would get the electrification love by default. The glass half empty person would believe that adding $1-5k to the price of the regular car could be the death knell for GM. Fuel is going to have to increase dramatically in price to make bring people back to more fuel efficient vehicles.

 

[Ladogaboy]

As for Ev vs. non-EV, maybe the tact to take is to go all in and only sell BEVs and PHEVs and do away with pure ICE. It would be a giant shock to the system, but if every spark, sonic, Cruze, Malibu, Impala, Silverado, Tahoe, suburban, vette, Camaro had the low end torque of the volt (adjusted with the right sized motor and engine for the platform) and they were able to knock down the;price difference, then everyone would get the electrification love by default. The glass half empty person would believe that adding $1-5k to the price of the regular car could be the death knell for GM. Fuel is going to have to increase dramatically in price to make bring people back to more fuel efficient vehicles.

For economy cars, I think this is actually the correct strategy for GM. They shouldn't be selling any pure ICE economy cars. And the EREV should be expanded as an option to all SUVs and pickups.

 

[Ladogaboy]

Spark MSRP: $13,000
Spark EV MSRP: $25,120

I'm a struggling single mother just trying to feed and cloth my 2 kids and pay my mortgage. You would deprive me of the only car I can afford. I'll have to drive unreliable used cars for a long time before I can save enough money to buy a new car, but you just priced me out of the market.

My mother was one of these people.

I would think that mother would be more concerned about volatile fuel prices. Besides, I thought the conservative opinion was, if you can't afford it, you don't deserve it. At least, that goes for everything else (food, medicine, house, etc.). Even financial advisers state that if you are financially limited, you shouldn't even be considering a new car. Yes, even a $13,000 new car is too much. Buy a used $3,000 to $4,000 car and hope it lasts long enough for you to get your finances in order.

In more progressive states, we actually give much larger credits for low income buyers, so your mother could likely lease a Spark EV for $0 down, and close to net $0 for the life of the lease.

 

[Ladogaboy]

That may be the most insensitive thing you've ever said on this forum.

What can I say? Maybe I'm growing up and am less concerned with being PC than I am with speaking the truth.

 

[llninja]

I would think that mother would be more concerned about volatile fuel prices. Besides, I thought the conservative opinion was, if you can't afford it, you don't deserve it. At least, that goes for everything else (food, medicine, house, etc.). Even financial advisers state that if you are financially limited, you shouldn't even be considering a new car. Yes, even a $13,000 new car is too much. Buy a used $3,000 to $4,000 car and hope it lasts long enough for you to get your finances in order.

In more progressive states, we actually give much larger credits for low income buyers, so your mother could likely lease a Spark EV for $0 down, and close to net $0 for the life of the lease.

You can't tell a greenback troll to lease a vehicle... I sense a thread closure coming soon.

 

[Ladogaboy]

My mother was very proud of what she did in her life and I'm glad she was able to buy a new car which she saved up for for years. She paid cash for her car. And you sir, are an ass.

And not that it's any of your business but she lived within her means, budgeted everything, and had a 401K so she wouldn't become a financial burden on anyone in her senior years. She never took a welfare handout. She taught us lessons we didn't fully appreciate for decades. No one I can think of had a higher work ethic.

Yes, she "deserved" that little Honda Accord.

I hope you can differentiate between individuals and the political beliefs of certain groups. My mom also bypassed food stamps and welfare, even though it meant that she sometimes only had enough money to feed my brother and me (she went without). All the while, conservative politicians in our district suppressed wages and railed against social welfare programs (literally, the only things keeping some of my neighbors afloat). The justification? Work harder, and you won't need them. Well, my mom worked two full-time jobs. Apparently, that wasn't hard enough.

 

[Off Oil]

IF they eliminate the Volt hatchback then they'll lose me as a customer. Not all of us want to drive a truck or minivan every day (cough SUV). Expanding the line to include a SUV (cough minivan) with the technology I can see, but I don't believe there is any way they'll abandon the technology altogether.

Regarding Model 3 competition, they already have that with the Bolt. There will be a market for EVREs for a long time to come. DC charging needs to become much more prevalent before the backup isn't needed.

 

[Ladogaboy]

I can. I'm somewhat aware of your mother's challenges since you've brought it up before and I lived as a child in similar circumstances. I would never dismiss her as you did here with mine. My mother had it no easier than yours did. We live in Illinois.

Political blah blah doesn't excuse what you did here, and you of all should know better. Maybe you have a little more "growing up" to do. A decent man wouldn't hide behind cognitive dissonance, he would apologize for being insensitive. I'll bet your mother would encourage it. I have every reason to believe she is a decent and proud woman.

Well, I'm sorry that what I said offended you. I believe that how you took it is not how I meant it. My point was not directed at your mother, or what she does or does not deserve.

My only point was that that our society seems to believe that if someone can't afford something, they shouldn't have it. Full stop. So, if the cheapest new car is $25,000 before incentives, then so be it. Millions of hardworking Americans in this country can't afford even a $10,000 new car, and no manufacturer is under any obligation to make a new car that those Americans can afford. I'm not saying that it's right, but it is how it is.

 

[Ladogaboy]

Really? That's not what I've been hearing for the past 25 years coming from....... What I've also heard is that we didn't build that. I drive on roads THEY built, as if I wasn't any part of it.

You might have been hearing the opposite. But the side that has been dialing back social support programs has been winning.

My mom did get her Honda Accord, as I outlined. Jack the price to double and it wouldn't have happened. You have to stop believing that forcing people to buy what you think they should have is anything but destructive. Step out of your EV bubble and see how other people live. They can't afford your ideal world.

The issue is, ICE vehicles cost us far more than EVs, but those costs are harder to calculate because they are proximate rather than directly built into the price of the vehicle.

 

[Ladogaboy]

I can't imagine why.

Money in politics.

The issue is, people of lesser means can get to work every day. When you're supposed to be checking groceries every day (my mother did this too) you don't get a pass when you have car trouble, you get a write-up. You also don't get paid. Maybe you've worked for an hourly wage before.

You'll have to work out the social problems another way. If you think the politics have changed, wait until you see how the forgotten man reacts to your EV only idea that makes his life harder today. There are always other ways.

Oh, I'm aware. When the engine on my car blew out (and I didn't have the money to fix it), I had to walk to work for three months. I had the 5 am shift, and because our public transportation was so lacking, only eastbound buses started running at 4 am. Westbound buses didn't start until 5 am. Luckily, I only had to walk 10 miles, and I could take the buses back in the evening.

As for the social problems, the answer is easy. Make the wealthy start paying taxes, impose transaction fees on short-term/day trading, fine companies that don't pay their workers a living wage, and tariff the crap out of goods made in countries that don't pay their workers a living wage. You'll see jobs come back to America very quickly.

 

[ZamboniMan]

I'm actually OK going all electric and all gas. That could mean and all electric commuter car (that is nicer and more roomy than the Bolt) plus a Subyukonade or Land Rover for long family trips with the option of towing a camper or utility trailer. I can live without a Voltec, but am happy with my gen 1 volt. If gen 3 disappear and the rumored Voltec or electric CUV gets axed, then I move on and pick something else. In the immortal words of Robby from the Jim Henson "Dinosaurs" TV show, "What do you mean there aren't any more? That's what more means!"

That's what our family does... Volt for around town, and the Suburban to tow the boat/camper/etc, or for longer trips where comfort and storage is king. When we try to have one vehicle do everything, I'm afraid we'll end up doing nothing.

When did Ford stop making the Escape Hybrid? It seemed like they were on to something. I remember too that Chevy was putting hybrid technology into the 1500 Silverado, but now I can't find it on the website.

I wonder if they would succeed by offering 3 versions of most models: ICE, hybrid, and plug in. Ford is doing that with Fusion and Focus.

 

[ZamboniMan]

I think the Silverado/Subyukonade hybrids disappeared in 2015 when the new models came out. The new ICE engines are getting about the same fuel economy as the older hybrids were anyway. Interestingly enough you can get a Silverado configured to run on E85, but you cannot get this option in a Suburban. I would have liked the option to use E85 in a Suburban.

It's a conspiracy, man! I did some research after posting (maybe I should have done it the other way...), and saw that they discontinued the 1500 hybrid after the '13 run. The challenges far outweighed the benefit.

I can run e85 in my 2002 'burban, and don't forsee being able to afford a new one for quite some time. The MPG definitely goes down with e85, especially when towing. We used to use it for around town driving, but unless the gas prices are over 45 cents per gallon difference, it really doesn't do us anything. My daughter would rather eat the corn than drive on it.