[voltowner]

Things here have started to warm up a little here. Yesterday it was 50 degrees outside and the car started in battery mode and never shifted to using the engine to make poser.

Like in the past as the weather warms up my Volt goes back to battery most of the time. I realize that when things get cold the electric mileage goes down because of heating, lights and wipers using power and understand that. But the last couple years even with a full battery it runs the engine most of the time when it gets cold outside. I have thought it was just my high power battery getting older (11+ years now).

But having a full battery and the car starting the engine running right away would not be because of a used up battery. This usually happens when the outside temp is colder that 50. It would appear to me that that there is something that is colder and needs to heat up like the main battery because after running with the engine for a while she can shift from the engine running to using the battery even when it is a little below 50 outside. Could this be some sort of temperature sensor not working correctly or something like the heater for the battery not working correctly?

Just wondering what those of you that know about these things can teach me.

Roy 2011 volt #1019

 

[Steverino]

moved to Problems...

 

[Ryan IL]

The best measure that I know of is use an OBDII dongle to look at your battery capacity amp hours and cell balance using the My Volt Control app. It will also tell you if your battery heater is active.

 

[voltowner]

Ryan, I have the dongle and MyGreenVolt app ( I do not see the My Volt Control app in the app store is it the same?). Can not find where to see if battery heater is active or working in what I have? Waiting for a chance to run down the battery & test again when empty as I was told to do here on the forum.

first test when battery is full

Thank you, Roy

2011 Volt #1019

 

[Ryan IL]

MGV is great for balance. My Volt Control is iOS, but there’s an Android version too if that’s what you use. The capacity will be most useful in this case.

 

[voltowner]

Thank you, I will search again for the My Volt Control app in the android Play Store.

 

[hellsop]

Ryan, I have the dongle and MyGreenVolt app ( I do not see the My Volt Control app in the app store is it the same?). Can not find where to see if battery heater is active or working in what I have?

first screen ("dashboard"?) has four temperature bars: battery coolant, engine coolant, powertrain electronics coolant, and transmission/driveunit. At some point below 32F battery temp, the engine will run continuously to generate power to supply the battery heater. At an even lower point, there will be an alert "Battery too cold, plug in to warm". One indication that the battery heater is working is that the battery temperature will start climbing when you turn the car on. If it starts approaching 50 in less than 20 minutes from 32, that's normal operation.

Normally, the battery heater will keep the battery at or above 32 by drawing wall power. But depending on the model year, it may only do that for three days and at which point it enters a deeper sleep until it's unlocked and started. MGV's dashboard pie chart shows battery heater consumption as yellow. If that wedge is a substantial chunk, that means the heater has been working. that chart seems to be "since the battery finished charging to full" so when the car turns on, you'll see what was used while it was off and any preconditioning you called for, then as you drive, the green propulsion energy segment will start overwhelming battery heat and cabin heat sections.

 

[voltowner]

Hellsop

Thank you for this post I am learning from it. I appreciate how you explained things for my non mechanic or tech's ears.

For what you say it looks like the battery heater is working since the yellow section is 3/4 of the pie when I started her up this morning. The garage was 48 degrees and the battery temp green line showed 55.

But when I started her up the dash showed engine power right away even though the battery was full & I could see in the small not active icon above it she had 21 miles available there. Driving around yesterday it did the usual switch back and forth between gas and electric as she has been doing lately.

I will hope it warms up later today and see if it starts in electric mode when the temp is higher. Seems like she has done this in the past.

Do you thing all this just indicates I have an aging battery since she is a 2011?

Thank you, Roy 2011 volt #1019

 

[voltowner]

Here is what is most likely my dumb questionof the day but have to ask.

Again getting into the car and starting up it had a full battery but went directly to running the engine. Been doing it daily that way so not engine maintenance mode as I figure. And it was 48 degrees outside so not so cold that that would be the excuse. Maybe old unbalanced battery. It did finally go to electric after a half hour or so and stay that way until got home.

So the dumb question is there a way to tell the car to not use the engine and use the battery some how? Like the opposite of a hold button.

Roy 20100 Volt #1019

 

[hellsop]

Okay, this MAY BE relevant sometimes. I did an experiment on Saturday.

Somewhat cool day below freezing, but barely above ERDTT, but hadn't used the car for a couple of days and the battery was cold. I rigged up MGV and the battery temperature read out as 32F. Which is where a plugged in but resting Volt seems to let it drop to. I've never seen it colder until I've not driven for at least three days and the car falls into an even deeper slumber. OnStar stops polling around then too. I'd been niggling about "why are we seeing all these engine running events in winter?" so I wanted to see if I could make one happen. Got the car out, popped on Mountain Mode just as a charm against wrecking the battery, headed for the interstate and punched it.

I got the engine to turn on. No dash message, no ERDTT, no Propulsion Power Reduced, just engine on when there was theoretically plenty of power available. But the battery temperature meter was RED instead of green and it was climbing quickly. 2-3 degrees per minute. Which is a LOT for heating up a 300lb lump. After about 10 minutes the temperature in the battery was up to just above 50F and the meter turned green and the engine turned off and I was back on battery, using charge down to the mountain mode setpoint*.

The point being, though, that the combination of trying to climb up a ramp and barrel down an interstate at 75 with a freezing battery WHILE feeding the battery heater full blast seems like it was just too much for the chemistry to keep up with, and the Volt responded with "Well, I guess I need more power" and kicked on the ICE. The car performed well while doing this, and the engine spun quickly (3200-3500 RPM) though not what I'd associate with "screaming". Most of normal driving may not even use the battery heater and just depend on the intrinsic heat of "battery being used" to warm it slowly up to the point where it starts chilling the battery instead.

-----------------------------
* Mountain Mode for early Volts like mine was documented to be "about 40% battery" in song and legend, but for posterity I watched it cycle between 37% and 39% State of Charge. That's surprising little room between the low and high marks corresponding to engine on and engine off, but it does match pretty well with the 5%-7% range SoC I see on normal CS mode. Which makes me further suspect that all the car is doing is changing where "CS" is for MM, and probably doing the same thing for Hold Mode, and in the latter case, just setting the high "engine off" threshold wherever the SoC was at the time Hold Mode is turned on.

 

[voltowner]

I just got home from another trip out. The temp here was 60 degrees here so I though that should not have and effect. Started with a full battery showing 21 miles but he engine came right on. Drove 7 miles with 2 different stops all with engine running. Third time I started her abck up the battery was running things. Drove a couple miles and the engine came on again. It switched once more before ending with battery drive as I hit home.

Wonder if I am the only one that would buy a real new battery not rebuilt with old parts if it was available and less than $10,000 installed. I understand that batteries have a life span. I would pay it if that would get me back to an electric car with gas range extender since I got 11 good years before the problem started.

Still find it curious it started happening a few years ago when they did the last system update that was suppose to fix the balancing thing.

 

[ElectricCow15]

Wonder if I am the only one that would buy a real new battery

No you're not, and for that reason I cant see why GM wont release some of the source code to let third parties build NEW batteries.

 

[hellsop]

Wonder if I am the only one that would buy a real new battery not rebuilt with old parts if it was available and less than $10,000 installed. I understand that batteries have a life span. I would pay it if that would get me back to an electric car with gas range extender since I got 11 good years before the problem started.

A LOT of people would buy such a battery, but ... it doesn't exist. And there's no sign that it will, in spite of that unfilled need. It's not impossible to design (GM did it), it's not impossible to manufacture (ditto), that basically leaves as a reason why not: It's infringing on Intellectual Properties or there's no profit in it. And I'm sure GM would love to have someone offer to take on the work in exchange for selling them the batteries so IP is probably just a matter of contracts. Which leaves "no profit in it."

 

[voltowner]

No you're not, and for that reason I cant see why GM wont release some of the source code to let third parties build NEW batteries.

Since GM dropped the volt line after we spent top dollar to help them get into the electric car business that would be the least they could do. Many like me paid over MSRP to get our Volts and felt it worth it thinking GM was creating an amazing car they wanted to capture the market with. I never thought they would drop us like a hot potato and put the money into a different idea before the parts in the cars wore out and they had no stock to keep them running.

Did GM actually make the Volt Batteries themselves or contract that out to a battery making company?

Allowing and suppporting someone else to make replacement parts would go a long way to gaining trust in GM for me again. Until then I see them as a company the did an amazing job creating and amazing product that I can not trust anymore.

Roy 2011 Volt #1019

 

[Steverino]

Did GM actually make the Volt Batteries themselves or contract that out to a battery making company?

In October 2008, GM chose CPI (LG Chemical) to provide the battery systems for the first production version of the Volt.

 

[voltowner]

In October 2008, GM chose CPI (LG Chemical) to provide the battery systems for the first production version of the Volt.

Steverino, thanks for that information.

So could CPI (LG Chemical) make new ones for replacments in our Volts if they wanted to or is GM stopping them because of the Intellectual Properties rights? I realize there might be other reasons for CPI not wanting to like demand and profit margins. But do wonder if GM let them if those other things could be handled?

Even at a high cost for a replacement battery, that would be a lot less than buying a new car. And besides I think the Volt is a beautiful, amazing car I really enjoy and keep in great shape. Want to drive it as long as possible,

Roy 2011 Volt #1019

 

[Steverino]

So could CPI (LG Chemical) make new ones for replacments in our Volts if they wanted to or is GM stopping them because of the Intellectual Properties rights?

Yes, they would just need to rebuild the original production line. I don't know how much that would cost. Hundreds of thousands? More? If I'm LG do I want to invest that given how much they are already spending on new battery plants? Let's say they did. How many hundreds of thousands are ready to buy to make it profitable? How are you the Volt owner going to overcome the tab welding issue? Who is responsible if/when something goes wrong?

I suspect they need GM's permission as well as GM has some IP in the battery formulation. But maybe LG could make a different formulation to by-pass GM. Would they risk alienating one of their biggest customers and partner to supply these off-book cells to you?

You might be better off trying to buy cells via the Chinese market and cobble together something that way. There's a thread in here somewhere along those lines. The next question would be the Volt's battery management software, would it need updating for the new, non-GM cells?

 

[ElectricCow15]

I doubt the battery chem really has much to do about replacements, that can be changed with a software update or hack. The hardware of a battery is DUMB, all it knows is electron transfer. There is no reasonable reason to not let the consumer have full control over thier 10+ year old car. We could have Volts traveling 100 miles or more by now on electric.

 

[voltowner]

I doubt the battery chem really has much to do about replacements, that can be changed with a software update or hack. The hardware of a battery is DUMB, all it knows is electron transfer. There is no reasonable reason to not let the consumer have full control over thier 10+ year old car. We could have Volts traveling 100 miles or more by now on electric.

I would think that GM would be embarrassed by the fact that they made a car that wears out after just ten years and you can not get important replacement parts from them or others. For me it has ruined their reputation as a top quality car company.

So if in the next ten years someone invents a better battery technology (and as with most tech someone most likely will) will GM just drop their new Ultium system and all of the people who trusted them will be left high with dying cars just like us.

Do you think others companies will be treating their electric cars the same way?

Roy 2011 Volt #1019

 

[Steverino]

So if in the next ten years someone invents a better battery technology (and as with most tech someone most likely will) will GM just drop their new Ultium system and all of the people who trusted them will be left high with dying cars just like us.

Well, they are incorporating the idea of replaceable bricks that are not tied to the original production year nor even the original battery chemistry or technology precisely so they can use whatever the current battery "flavor" the plants are producing. Theoretically, a solid state battery could be used as long as it conforms to the Ultium platform specs. This is a lesson learned from the Volt. Also, given that a million or so Ultium-based cars will be on the road by then, there will be a larger used supply via the auto-salvage yards.

I know of no one else who is promoting this idea. Tesla for example will require the entire battery pack be replaced. Maybe VW will have something but they have already bifurcated their platform rather than following GM's one platform for all.