GM Volt Forum banner

1 - 20 of 29 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
123 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
This is an interesting video. This guy makes the case for EVs taking over WAY faster than markets are anticipating simply based on the simplicity and reliability of EVs. He uses the Tesla Model S as the example, but I imagine that this applies to other EVs as well. The Tesla Model S, according to this guy, has 18 moving parts. 18! The average ICE vehicle has more than 1500.

 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,468 Posts
Cool why open more Tesla Service Centers?
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
14,156 Posts
Parts aren't all moving parts and, since any part can fail, it's not as big a difference as the speaker suggests. If you doubt this you have to explain why Model S, much less the Model X, needs more repairs than most ICE vehicles.

Having said that I'm surprised moving on to shocked that we haven't seen issues with the Bolt EV. And other than the battery dying and being a crap car in general, the Nissan Leaf proved quite reliable. So I'm willing to say more reliable once manufacturers have moved up the learning curve, just not by as much as the speaker is suggesting.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
140 Posts
This is an interesting video. This guy makes the case for EVs taking over WAY faster than markets are anticipating simply based on the simplicity and reliability of EVs. He uses the Tesla Model S as the example, but I imagine that this applies to other EVs as well. The Tesla Model S, according to this guy, has 18 moving parts. 18! The average ICE vehicle has more than 1500.

I would love to own a Tesla. I love the way they look. I love that I could go a week on one charge. Do I love the price tag? Not so much. A Tesla is not within my reach financially at this time. Even an "off lease" unit at less than half price, like I got my Volt, is a bit of a stretch. Prices trend downward on technology but maybe not so much for automobiles. Someday I will own one though........black on black with every option baby!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,121 Posts
He would have to. Just the hinges alone for doors/trunk/hatch cover 12 moving parts, not counting suspension arms, motor shafts, etc. Regardless of the number of moving parts, it really comes down to maintenance frequency. Sure an EV requires less maintenance but that's primarily due to the simplicity of an electric motor rather than an engine. Aside from the propulsion means, the basic car still has the same requirements when it comes to being able to operate safely on the road.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,890 Posts
Let's see....

4 doors + 4 interior door handles + 4 exterior door handles + 4 door locks + 4 door windows + 4 door window motors + 7 door window switches....

So right there is 31 parts just in the doors, and I've certainly left out a bunch of moving parts inside the door internal door.

He must ONLY be talking about drivetrain parts excluding suspension, steering, etc. And even then I'm skeptical of the number, since you'd have to include a whole host of switches, relays, pumps, compressors, fans, etc.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,405 Posts
"My car is broke."
"What makes you think that?"
"There are 17 moving parts."
"No, there are 18."
"Exactly."
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
20 Posts
I love the simplicity of a battery only EV with direct drive. The complicated drivetrain of the Volt was one the reasons it took me so long to get one. It is probably one the most complex arrangements ever put in mass produced car. The range extender concept is brilliantly executed in the Volt, I just fear the complexity will cause problems as the miles pile up. Ultimately, the warranty on the Voltec components helped me make the leap of faith.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
123 Posts
Discussion Starter #11
Tesla vehicles have high repair rates I think because people who buy them expect them to fly and float, repel rain and bullets and leak rainbows. They take the car in for repair because of a squeak they think is excessive. If they hear wind noise at 80MPH they complain. Just watch some of the YouTube videos of Tesla owners. They're fiercely loyal to the brand, but also a bit cultish. They expect quite a bit from the company.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,758 Posts
Tesla vehicles have high repair rates I think because people who buy them expect them to fly and float, repel rain and bullets and leak rainbows. They take the car in for repair because of a squeak they think is excessive. If they hear wind noise at 80MPH they complain. Just watch some of the YouTube videos of Tesla owners. They're fiercely loyal to the brand, but also a bit cultish. They expect quite a bit from the company.
They also have water leaking into places it shouldn't and door handles not working.... It's not all because they're expecting too much.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,405 Posts
Tesla vehicles have high repair rates I think because people who buy them expect them to fly and float, repel rain and bullets and leak rainbows. They take the car in for repair because of a squeak they think is excessive. If they hear wind noise at 80MPH they complain. Just watch some of the YouTube videos of Tesla owners. They're fiercely loyal to the brand, but also a bit cultish. They expect quite a bit from the company.
For most Tesla buyers, it is not the first car they have bought new. I imagine they are comparing them to their past cars.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,121 Posts
I have to agree. All of the unproven technology comes at a price. Having flush door handles is nice, but there's also a reason why so few manufacturers do it. I get that it makes the side profile more aerodynamic but as most anyone can agree, door handles today just aren't built like they used to and having one that relies on a seal to keep water out of the mechanics is really asking for problems.

I think Tesla really over promised and under delivered and many people look at this as being a $70+K car and expecting quality to match the price. Never mind that most of that cost was for development of the technology that goes into the car.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,577 Posts
"My car is broke."
"What makes you think that?"
"There are 17 moving parts."
"No, there are 18."
"Exactly."
Abbot and Costello???:p:D
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,366 Posts
I love the simplicity of a battery only EV with direct drive. The complicated drivetrain of the Volt was one the reasons it took me so long to get one. It is probably one the most complex arrangements ever put in mass produced car. The range extender concept is brilliantly executed in the Volt, I just fear the complexity will cause problems as the miles pile up. Ultimately, the warranty on the Voltec components helped me make the leap of faith.
I would disagree with this... look at the 4ET50 compared to any modern automatic transmission. The standard auto has multiple gearsets and clutches... way more moving parts. I'd say the Volt is mechanically simpler. Now the code to control the 4ET50, with all the multiple power inputs and modes and regen etc. is probably pretty complicated. But code can't break once it's written (it can have errors, sure, but they seem to have done a good job on this, as we don't hear about transmissions spontaneously exploding due to a software bug making it do something stupid).
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
20 Posts
I would disagree with this... look at the 4ET50 compared to any modern automatic transmission. The standard auto has multiple gearsets and clutches... way more moving parts. I'd say the Volt is mechanically simpler. Now the code to control the 4ET50, with all the multiple power inputs and modes and regen etc. is probably pretty complicated. But code can't break once it's written (it can have errors, sure, but they seem to have done a good job on this, as we don't hear about transmissions spontaneously exploding due to a software bug making it do something stupid).
Maybe the 4ET50 is simpler than a modern automatic transmission, I just have a real hard time wrapping my head around how it works. I have a basic understanding of how a traditional automatic works and fairly good understanding of how a fuel injected ICE works. But all the different modes driven by software make me worry that bad code could cause a meltdown. Compared to a battery only EV the number of additional potential failure points is staggering. But GM's decision to stand by their work with a very serious warranty on the powertrain sufficiently addressed my concerns.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,366 Posts
Maybe the 4ET50 is simpler than a modern automatic transmission, I just have a real hard time wrapping my head around how it works. I have a basic understanding of how a traditional automatic works and fairly good understanding of how a fuel injected ICE works. But all the different modes driven by software make me worry that bad code could cause a meltdown. Compared to a battery only EV the number of additional potential failure points is staggering. But GM's decision to stand by their work with a very serious warranty on the powertrain sufficiently addressed my concerns.
I agree it is confusing... I really wish they made mini models of the 4ET50 with little cranks (or even small electric motors) so you could play with it and see how it worked. I actually tried to find planetary gearset models a while ago (as a teaching aid), but couldn't find much. Maybe I can find a friend with a good 3D printer...
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,396 Posts
Maybe the 4ET50 is simpler than a modern automatic transmission, I just have a real hard time wrapping my head around how it works.
Here's a great teardown video to see how it works.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dqM3YXEf1js
Very few moving parts, they're all gear-gear (no belts or chains to wear out) and two clutches, which engage @ 0rpm (virtually no wear)
In terms of reliability of moving parts, it's right at the top. The only question mark is that bearing cage.

As to how those gears are actually put in motion, you just need to focus on the clutches.
One motor doing all the work.
engage clutch #1 - second motor helps out.
if engine is on, engage clutch #2 and one motor is making power, one is putting power to the wheels.
Engage clutch #1 & #2 and the engine can help both motors drive the wheels as the driveshaft is indirectly connected to the gears to the wheel (through the clutch to rotor of the small motor and the clutch to the main drive)
From there everything else is controlled electrically - if engine produces too much power, siphon some out from one of the motors and store in the battery. If it's not producing enough, add some in via one of the motors.
That's how you get essentially infinite "gear ratios" to get max efficiency from the engine without actually shifting a gear set.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
20 Posts
Thanks for the link to the video. It is better than the ones I have watched so far. It also makes me feel a little better about gen 1 drivetrain's durability. Is the gen 2 drivetrain as robust? I thought I saw a cutaway of it that included chains instead of just gears.
 
1 - 20 of 29 Posts
Top