[dagwood55]

"But Lutz said Toyota deserved more scrutiny for its earlier, apparent dismissal of lithium-ion battery technology at the time GM announced the Volt a year and a half ago.

"They told the world that GM was taking a huge risk, that lithium ion batteries were prone to explode and that we were putting our customers at risk and that they would stay with the tried and true," he said. "When it comes to Toyota, let me tell you, the press has a short memory." - Lutz interview blogged by Hendler

So typical of GM. "We don't suck.. the press just tells you we suck and you believe it. Dexcool, for example, was entirely imaginary."

Lame.

Also, Lutz has, several times, blasted Toyota for dissing GM's efforts. However, I've never seen a credible link to anything Toyota said that could be considered derogatory with respect to GM's efforts.

Lutz, for example, said that Toyota's CEO called the Volt approach "wacky." This is untrue. Toyota's CEO said that HSD was superior and cited a reason, better efficiency when the ICE was providing principal power. Nothing wrong or derogatory in that. It just suits Lutz' PR purposes to have people think Toyota was being rude.

If Toyota gets a pass at all, it's probably because they're MAKING MONEY and has a currently unequalled hybrod on the road TODAY, not pointing 2.5 years down the road to a Hail Mary Pass Play that they hope to complete.

 

[Jason M. Hendler]

dag,

I am not going to dig through 18+ months of news articles to dig up Watanabe's slanders against the Volt - we all remember them, and at the time, laughed, because we knew he was frontin', while filling his shorts.

Fortunately, more powerful men finally pushed him to do what he didn't want to do, and embrace Li Ion battery tech. Meanwhile, A123 is drinking their milkshake, by providing all the conversion kits to the 1,000,000 Prius' in existence.

 

[MrBogey]

Don't know anyone involved but according to this: http://www.autoblog.com/2008/03/14/gm-delays-testing-of-volt-battery-packs-until-july/

It was Toyota's Kazuo Okamoto, and he said the concept, presumably of a Li-On plug-in dseries hybrid, was "wacky" and nonsense".

 

[dagwood55]

MrBogey, I followed that and it leads nowhere.

Feel free to click through the links all you like. You won't find a credible source directly quoting Okamoto saying GM's plan was "wacky."

In a presentation to Toyota shareholders, Okamoto referred to the Toyota approach as "superior," and offered specific reasons why Toyota thinks so. What a shocking surprise.

Lutz later turned this into allegations that Toyota called the GM system "wacky."

Of course, with well over a half million hybrid vehicles on the road at that point and the vendor of perhaps the most successful EV in the US - the Rav4-EV, well, maybe Toyota knows what they're talking about.

The runners-up in hybrid tech sales (Ford and Honda, unless I've overlooked someone interesting) are also doing parallel systems. Gee. Maybe GM should reflect on that. Nissan chose to license HSD. Golly. Why would they do that?

 

[MrBogey]

The link works absolutely fine here and there is no cookie issue.

You might want to contact your ISP or bring the comp into the shop... or admit Toyota's R&D guy insulted the Volt.

And an argument ad populum doesn't make sound engineering advice.

 

[dagwood55]

"The link works absolutely fine here and there is no cookie issue." - MrBogey

The link leads nowhere in terms of leading to a direct quote from Okamoto calling GM's plans "wacky." Like I said, feel free to chase links all day.

"And an argument ad populum doesn't make sound engineering advice." - MrBogey

True. But a series hybrid is, conceptually, simpler. It appears to have an obvious advantage. Still, 3 other manufacturers (4 if you count Nissan), chose something else. Why? A smart engineer will ask that question.

"I am not going to dig through 18+ months of news articles to dig up Watanabe's slanders against the Volt - we all remember them..." - Hendler

Odd that you can't immediately lay hands on something you remember so well and found so amusing and kicked around right here.

 

[Morgan]

"The link works absolutely fine here and there is no cookie issue." - MrBogey

The link leads nowhere in terms of leading to a direct quote from Okamoto calling GM's plans "wacky." Like I said, feel free to chase links all day.

"And an argument ad populum doesn't make sound engineering advice." - MrBogey

True. But a series hybrid is, conceptually, simpler. It appears to have an obvious advantage. Still, 3 other manufacturers (4 if you count Nissan), chose something else. Why? A smart engineer will ask that question.

"I am not going to dig through 18+ months of news articles to dig up Watanabe's slanders against the Volt - we all remember them..." - Hendler

Odd that you can't immediately lay hands on something you remember so well and found so amusing and kicked around right here.

well, I read the quotes trashing Lithium and I have read many quotes from Toyota trashing GM in the past...and no, I am not going to post links to satisfy your challenge. You have your mind made up already and I have zero desire to change it since playing gotcha isn't exactly something I wish to play tonight.

As to why everyone else isn't following suit with a serial drive is easy. Its risky, the battery tech GM is using is proprietary and newly developed, and there is no way to know how well it will sell and accepted in the marketplace. Toyota's hybrid on the other hand is proven, safe technology, the development costs are cut and dried in the licensing fees, already marketed and accepted by consumers. Here is a parallel for you:

1) Nanosolar has the cheapest, most efficient PV design on the market yet there are still many millions of dollars being dumped into standard thin film PV plants. Since the most money is being dumped into the old design what do those venture capital firms know about Nanosolar that we don't?

or

2) People are researching fusion electricity generation yet most of our energy is produced by coal, fission, wind, and sun...obviously we shouldn't bother with fusion.

see how shallow that "everyone else is doing it" argument is?

 

[dagwood55]

"well, I read the quotes trashing Lithium and I have read many quotes from Toyota trashing GM in the past...and no, I am not going to post links to satisfy your challenge" - morgan

And I know exactly why.

I didn't say GM shouldn't pursue this. I said a smart engineer would ask himself why the other three had made the choices they made.

 

[MrBogey]

True. But a series hybrid is, conceptually, simpler. It appears to have an obvious advantage. Still, 3 other manufacturers (4 if you count Nissan), chose something else. Why? A smart engineer will ask that question.

It's conceptually simpler but engineering-wise is trickier. To have a vehicle that utilizes batteries and an electric motor as it's sole means of movement is fundamentally different than having a vehicle that at its core is an efficient gas drivetrain with an electric drivetrain tacked on to operate at low speeds. While it's conceptually easier for the all-electric, the engineering tech is still being worked on so that Americans get the cars they want. So in a way, it's easier to make a more complex parallel drivetrain than a simpler sole electric one.

But with a parallel drivetrain you have issues of keeping maximum efficiencies across all usage. If you drive mostly highway you NEED the gas engine to keep up. There goes the fuel economy. With an all electric drivetrain you don't need to rely on inefficient and costly fuel unless you're going over a certain distance. IIRC, even the best Prius can only go a short distance on its battery. That's a big differentiator.

 

[Morgan]

"well, I read the quotes trashing Lithium and I have read many quotes from Toyota trashing GM in the past...and no, I am not going to post links to satisfy your challenge" - morgan

And I know exactly why.

I didn't say GM shouldn't pursue this. I said a smart engineer would ask himself why the other three had made the choices they made.

I told you exactly why...I don't have time to dig through 10 years worth of Automotive News and other trade group publications to one up a guy/girl on the internet. The links are out there. If you are that curious you can look them up yourself.

 

[dagwood55]

I told you exactly why...I don't have time to dig through 10 years worth of Automotive News and other trade group publications to one up a guy/girl on the internet. The links are out there. If you are that curious you can look them up yourself.

"Ten years of Automotive News...?" You do have a gift for exaggeration. Or you're woefully out of touch. Or you lack common sense. This remark was alleged, by Lutz, to have occurred last fall. You don't have to look through ten years of anything. Two seconds' of thought would and you would realize that Toyota couldn't diss the Volt approach before the Volt concept was shown in January of 2007.

 

[MetrologyFirst]

Morgan,

Your Solar cell analogy is excellent. Perfect analogy to the series vs. parallel argument.

Don't bother with Dagwood. He is a Toyota lover and a GM hater. I'm not sure really why he bothers to hang around here. The quotes referenced by other in this thread exist, period. That's all we really need to know about the "Toyota way".

Apparently Japanese companies are the only companies with "smart engineers".

 

[Jason M. Hendler]

daggie,

Seems people are learning to recognize your antics as mere distraction instead sincere debate. Eventually, all will recognize those tactics, regardless of the arena - be it liberal spin, high tech fraud, etc.

The days of you and yours are numbered - the tide is turning.

 

[dagwood55]

Morgan,

Your Solar cell analogy is excellent. Perfect analogy to the series vs. parallel argument.

Don't bother with Dagwood. He is a Toyota lover and a GM hater. I'm not sure really why he bothers to hang around here. The quotes referenced by other in this thread exist, period. That's all we really need to know about the "Toyota way".

Apparently Japanese companies are the only companies with "smart engineers".

Reviewing my posts, I do not see where I said Japanese companies were the ONLY ones with smart engineers.

I hang around here for news of the Volt, of course. I'm just not kidding myself about its chances in the marketplace. That's why I don't seem to fit in.

 

[dagwood55]

daggie,

Seems people are learning to recognize your antics as mere distraction instead sincere debate. Eventually, all will recognize those tactics, regardless of the arena - be it liberal spin, high tech fraud, etc.

The days of you and yours are numbered - the tide is turning.

Odd that you can take time to pile on with a put-down but don't have the time to link conclusive proof that Toyota called GM's RE-EV plans "wacky." Very strange when it was all so familiar to you.

I mean, shouldn't a quick Google search take care of all that? Shouldn't "Okamoto wacky" yield some useful result? Shouldn't something useable pop to the top of the pile?

 

[Jason M. Hendler]

Odd that you can take time to pile on with a put-down but don't have the time to link conclusive proof that Toyota called GM's RE-EV plans "wacky." Very strange when it was all so familiar to you.

I mean, shouldn't a quick Google search take care of all that? Shouldn't "Okamoto wacky" yield some useful result? Shouldn't something useable pop to the top of the pile?

... not when the Google founders are buying Prius's.

 

[MrBogey]

Odd that you can take time to pile on with a put-down but don't have the time to link conclusive proof that Toyota called GM's RE-EV plans "wacky." Very strange when it was all so familiar to you.

I mean, shouldn't a quick Google search take care of all that? Shouldn't "Okamoto wacky" yield some useful result? Shouldn't something useable pop to the top of the pile?

Apparently the conversation didn't occur with a tape recorder. The google links do come back with a lot of history on it from Lutz's version. I guess it's just a sly way of you calling Lutz a liar.

 

[dagwood55]

"... not when the Google founders are buying Prius's." - Hendler

Your own version of "The X-Files?"

"Apparently the conversation didn't occur with a tape recorder. The google links do come back with a lot of history on it from Lutz's version." - MrBogey

If it didn't get reported, then how would Lutz know about it?

"I guess it's just a sly way of you calling Lutz a liar." - MrBogey

I'm comfortable with "exaggerated for his own purposes." Lutz is serving doctored Kool-Aid and you two are lapping it up and begging for more.

 

[Morgan]

"Ten years of Automotive News...?" You do have a gift for exaggeration. Or you're woefully out of touch. Or you lack common sense. This remark was alleged, by Lutz, to have occurred last fall. You don't have to look through ten years of anything. Two seconds' of thought would and you would realize that Toyota couldn't diss the Volt approach before the Volt concept was shown in January of 2007.

I meant quotes of Toyota trashing GM which with "two seconds of thought" would have been apparent...which you are right, 10 years isn't LONG ENOUGH. So of course if Lutz throws out kool aid I will lap it up, because its coming from a company who has a historical record of making those comments.

Anyway, by this time you are clearly a troll since Lutz's comments on Toyota have zero bearing on the discussion and marketing of the Volt.

anyway:

Toyota Communications Guy saying PHEV batteries aren't ready in power or for mass production....in February of 2008...

http://blog.toyota.com/2008/02/its-nearly-impo.html

and this:

http://blog.toyota.com/2007/09/hybrid-tech-par.html#more

and there is this one which "spins" Okamato's comments and increases Toyota's dis-information and FUD campaign on Series Hybrids....and I love this quote so I will put it in my post:

"So the choice seems clear. If you want a product that's easy on the environment, gets great fuel economy and has good performance, the only reasonable choice is Hybrid Synergy Drive. You can buy a vehicle powered by the system right now, today. But if you want a series hybrid, well – you can cross your fingers and wait for a few years until some difficult engineering and production problems are solved. Or, you can look into buying a locomotive."

Irv Miller, Group Vice President, Corporate Communications Toyota


but you are quite correct...I don't see the specific word "wacky" since I can't seem to find the text of Mr. Okamoto's speech. So, yep, since he didn't say the specific words "wacky" just suggests we buy a train that Bob Lutz is a LIAR!