On this Memorial Day, surely we can agree on this. Our troops are doing an amazing job and we appreciate their personal sacrifices, especially those that have sacrificed their lives. Their sacrifice transcends political wrangling. THANK YOU!

-Nuttzy :cool:

On this Memorial Day, surely we can agree on this. Our troops are doing an amazing job and we appreciate their personal sacrifices, especially those that have sacrificed their lives. Their sacrifice transcends political wrangling. THANK YOU!

-Nuttzy :cool:

I agree. Some U.S. citizens where asking early in the war, 'What can we do to help?". The Government didn't really offer anything to the public except support the troops. So sad there is no leadership today. For my part in supporting the troops I will:
Reduce my consumption of gasoline via, fewer trips, multipurpose trips, practice safe hypermiling techniques. It's not right to have a group of citizens giving their lives so we can have stable gas supplies to drive SUVs and trucks. The war isn't rooted in helping people, if it was we would be at war in Darfur.
Just as soon as cars like the Mitsubishi i-MiEV, Volt and others hit the market, I will be on the streets with checkbook in hand.
I will be a vocal advocate in support of: transportation electrification, National and citizen scale photovoltaic projects to help "fuel" the cars which will remove our dependence on foreign nations. If Israel (Project Better Place (http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=electric+car&sitesearch=#q=%22project%20better%20place%22&sitesearch=)) can do it, what's wrong with us?One of the ways to get our troops home is to remove the reason for being there.

Any other suggestions out there? We have to come up with a plan folks, Congress hasn't or won't (sigh...).

On this Memorial Day, surely we can agree on this. Our troops are doing an amazing job and we appreciate their personal sacrifices, especially those that have sacrificed their lives. Their sacrifice transcends political wrangling. THANK YOU!

-Nuttzy :cool:

Here, here! Absolutely! Thank You!

I agree! However, how about we don't just wave our flags today and go jump into our SUVs tomorrow guilt free. Let's each of us make a resolution to work on a plan to reduce our use of petroleum products and stick with it. If people are overly ambitious they can also work to move towards a more sustainable lifestyle. Hey, its for the troops!

Reduction of petroleum products:

1) Use less gasoline and move towards using no gasoline. You can do this by buying a very fuel efficient car(s) and sell your Huge truck to a worker that will actually use it everyday. Buying a plug-in hybrid or maybe a BEV (even if only for your second car).

2) Use less plastics. Do you need plastic bags for everything? How about bring some with you to carry things from the grocery store? Mindset - plastics are bad.

3) Buy more food from local farmers. Don't accept the 1,500 mile meal anymore. The more you support your local farmers the better off you will be when gas and diesel really get expensive. Yes, that is coming.

4) Convert your homes from using oil heating. A new furnace using homegrown natural gas is better. We have a lot of it here. Even if it's not renewable it is much better than using imported oil.

5) Use public transportation. Yes, the culture in America is that it is so bad and beneath us. That is just our silly culture. We much change it. Public transportation (when run well) is much more efficient and the vehicles can be switched over to using renewable energy sources much easier.

6) Travel less. A plane trip is like driving your car around the globe several times. Figure out how to enjoy your free time more locally. Let's face it friends and family are more satisfying than taking 1000 pictures of Paris. Ok, maybe not but it's for the troops! It's a tiny sacrifice.

7) Try to buy things that are made locally. Furniture, toys, household items. Etc. Shipping a desk from Vietnam is wasteful. Besides, as harsh as this seems we cannot afford to be building up other third world economies UNTIL we have figured out the energy problem. It will only cause more disruption.

8) Ride a bike if the distance to the store is short. It will also make you feel better (after you get adjusted to it).

9) Read up and get yourself educated on energy. Write to the government and let them know what you would like them to do.


Well, you get the idea. Basically look at everything from a petroleum perspective. The funny thing is that if everyone in America did this we might be able to delay the oil crisis by quite a bit. It will give us more time to work on solutions. If Americans thought in this way the government would be powerless to do anything other than make policy to get us energy independent. The people lead the government.



After we get a handle on the oil problem we will then be in a much better frame of mind to work toward sustainable living. That involves the use of renewables like solar, wind, wave, etc. to reduce the use or our non-renewable resources. Hey, one step at a time. The oil situation is critical. Thank you troops!

Hmmm. I don't think we need to get all crazy now.

http://nextbigfuture.com/2007/11/considering-how-to-reduce-oil.html

Keep in mind, all those things mentioned are someone's job. Changing transportation is the key. The second key is separating church and state; the church of environmentalism that is.

Hmmm. I don't think we need to get all crazy now.

http://nextbigfuture.com/2007/11/considering-how-to-reduce-oil.html

Keep in mind, all those things mentioned are someone's job. Changing transportation is the key. The second key is separating church and state; the church of environmentalism that is.

Better than the church of self distruction. ;)

Better than the church of self distruction. ;)

Church of self destruction? That's interesting. I don't see anyone demanding that you use more oil. Speaking of self destruction, you forgot about the Sisters of No Progeny.

2) Use less plastics. Do you need plastic bags for everything? How about bring some with you to carry things from the grocery store? Mindset - plastics are bad.

Texas. I think you should think about a bigger picture of what plastics can be use. From that point of view, I would agree with plastic bags from the grocery store. I would says plastics are not bad. One thing is great about plastics is that it could be use in IVs and blood transfer. Another things is that there are company that are working non-petroleum plastics. I hope GM use non-petroleum plastics in the volt as well. I would says "Mindset - petroleum plastics are bad."

I would like to bring the troop home. I would thanks all the troops in the past war that US been into for believe in what the US stands for.

Texas. I think you should think about a bigger picture of what plastics can be use. From that point of view, I would agree with plastic bags from the grocery store. I would says plastics are not bad. One thing is great about plastics is that it could be use in IVs and blood transfer. Another things is that there are company that are working non-petroleum plastics. I hope GM use non-petroleum plastics in the volt as well. I would says "Mindset - petroleum plastics are bad.".


Yes Cybereye, I have thought about the big picture. I was hoping people would understand my statement to read, "excessive and wasteful use of plastics". No, I don't want to take away medical plastics. That would be just plain idiotic. Right?

Of course scientists are working hard on making renewable plastics by using, for example, oil from algae. The use of renewable and sustainable materials will become more important in the future. I think most people can agree. It seems to me that working on these kinds of technologies has much more future promise than working with non-renewable technologies. That's all I'm trying to say. Us humans should just think on that wavelength; Away from non-renewable, towards renewable. Extreme behavior is not even needed (yet). We often have the choice and more than often we choose the non-renewable path. It's the simple, highly addictive drug path that only hurts more when the drug is gone.

Texas

I appreciate your passion. I would encourage you to temper it with the plight of the less fortunate. Were you to do so, you would be a force to be reckoned with.

Texas

I appreciate your passion. I would encourage you to temper it with the plight of the less fortunate. Were you to do so, you would be a force to be reckoned with.


Ah, if you were to ever meet me in person you would not be subject to my Internet wrath. I will be polite and nod in semi agreement so that you would think I agreed with your crazy ass logic. Of course you know I'm kidding right? It's all good. When we’re all at the Volt club meeting we’ll all be drinking cold beers and reminiscing about our “waiting time”. Cheers! ;)

4) Convert your homes from using oil heating. A new furnace using homegrown natural gas is better. We have a lot of it here. Even if it's not renewable it is much better than using imported oil.


This one is big in the Northeast. My town, incorporated in 1732, has no public water, no public sewer, and no buried gas lines. I'm thinking that the best replacement for the oil burner is an electrically powered ground source heat pump.

Yes Cybereye, I have thought about the big picture. I was hoping people would understand my statement to read, "excessive and wasteful use of plastics". No, I don't want to take away medical plastics. That would be just plain idiotic. Right?


I can't read your mind on your view. So I just took base on the front of the cover and see what I could understaind from that view. I may point out where I think it needed more info about. I'm learning more about you as time goes by. I just wonder how damn big info in your tiny brain you got?:D

http://nextbigfuture.com/2007/11/considering-how-to-reduce-oil.html

Keep in mind, all those things mentioned are someone's job. Changing transportation is the key. The second key is separating church and state; the church of environmentalism that is.

I like this chart as I really didn't know the breakdown. Who produced it? Would be nice if it is something like the DoE and not "random Internet people". If it's credible enough, I'll refer to it elsewhere.

I'm very surprised to see that heat+hot water for home+biz is a mere 4.9%. Cars, trucks, and planes account for a whopping 60.1%. Transitioning out of oil to "something else" for these specific uses is a tantalizing thought.

I think it is great that Texas and other members want to educate folks on how to conserve. I think it does make a difference and it is always good to challenge folks to do things just a little differently to yield a difference.

That said, you are going to encounter a lot of resistance for items more complicated or expensive than "changing a light bulb". Resistance can be overcome, and comes at the cost of spending your credibility. If you overspend your creds on things that are marginally effective, then you could have a cred deficit when the time comes to convince folks to take on something that is more complicated, less-convenient, or more expensive but yields a major boost.

Instructing folks to "travel less" is just a losing proposition. You end up preaching to the choir and alienating those not in the choir. When the Mr. Fusion 2000 comes along that makes energy from garbage with no waste but is expensive, then you are not going to have the creds to branch out. Some folks will even accuse you of membership in "the church of environmentalism".

And really, does anyone really believe that in the future we'll be using LESS energy per person? I find this extremely unlikely. I want my Minority Report gizmos! So the logical course of actions seems to be finding a way of getting abundant, clean energy that doesn't make us dependent on unstable parts of the world. Until then, getting folks engaged without chastising them is important for building up our creds!

-Nuttzy :cool:

I'm very surprised to see that heat+hot water for home+biz is a mere 4.9%.

Oil usage for heat&hot water is a lot more than 5% for the Northeast US. It's about 75% for my household, and I would guess 40% for most of my neighbors.

Oil usage for heat&hot water is a lot more than 5% for the Northeast US. It's about 75% for my household, and I would guess 40% for most of my neighbors.

Well, I'm from the Northeast also, have oil heat, and can confirm that it is a hell of a lot more than 5% for my household use too ;) But these are apparently national numbers, which makes sense since this is a national problem (well... a world problem too, but we can do a lot by acting nationally).

-Nuttzy :cool:

"I like this chart as I really didn't know the breakdown. Who produced it? Would be nice if it is something like the DoE and not "random Internet people". If it's credible enough, I'll refer to it elsewhere."

The link has the reference; you can download a pdf. It is sourced from EIA data. I haven't gone through the numbers myself, but it looks credible to me.

Well, I'm from the Northeast also, have oil heat, and can confirm that it is a hell of a lot more than 5% for my household use too ;) But these are apparently national numbers, which makes sense since this is a national problem (well... a world problem too, but we can do a lot by acting nationally).

-Nuttzy :cool:

Yep. Nationally a lot of homes use natural gas for heat so that energy usage is not included in this chart. So in a way, it's kind of good news for you guys in the Northeast, even though you personally consume a high percentage of fuel oil for heating, nationally it's just a tiny portion. So even if you were to cut your personal consumption by 50% let's say, it wouldn't really make much of a big dent in overall national oil consumption. Bottom line is that you don't have to worry so much about finding alternatives for your heating oil and just dump the money you would have spent on your house into your Volt!:D

And really, does anyone really believe that in the future we'll be using LESS energy per person? I find this extremely unlikely. I want my Minority Report gizmos! So the logical course of actions seems to be finding a way of getting abundant, clean energy that doesn't make us dependent on unstable parts of the world. Until then, getting folks engaged without chastising them is important for building up our creds!

-Nuttzy :cool:


I understand what you are saying about creds but I really don't care if I lose credibility to people that don’t want to understand that living in an unsustainable way is irresponsible. I will never change their mind anyway.

Even you are confusing the use of sustainable energy to that of unsustainable energy use. Do I think in the future we will use less energy? No, we will be using much more. The only difference is we will be using energy that is sustainable. I'm sure you have heard the statistic that every 10 minutes the sun provides us enough energy to equal current global energy production for a year. Thus, once we get our lips off of mother natures’ breast we can then learn how to use this sustainable energy and work towards using our limited resources in the most effective sustainable way. Think of fossil fuels as mother's milk. It gets us healthy and helps us develop to a point where we can take care of ourselves. We are still in that infant stage. I think most people would agree with that. Most of us will just use up every resource around us until it is gone with little regard to the consequences of a shortfall. Simple pleasure pain mentality. I'm also guilty of it but trying to work towards not being so. I understand that it will take great pain to get things moving. You only need to talk to people that have been though a war to see how much they appreciate peace. Same thing.

"I understand what you are saying about creds but I really don't care if I lose credibility to people that don’t want to understand that living in an unsustainable way is irresponsible. "

Dude, you really need to bone up on logical fallacies.

"I understand what you are saying about creds but I really don't care if I lose credibility to people that don’t want to understand that living in an unsustainable way is irresponsible. "

Dude, you really need to bone up on logical fallacies.


Re-read what I wrote and remember that I wrote, "to people that don’t want to understand". You will notice that this is indeed logical. I didn't say, "to people that don't understand". Do you now see the difference? ;)

I wanted to elaborate, but I had to rush off to take my kid to baseball.

You employed a fallacy called begging the question, in which you use circular reasoning. If I looked up "unsustainable" in the texionary, it would say something like, the irresponsbile use of a limited resource, i.e. the idea of irresponsibility is already in you definition of unsutainable. In other words, it's irresponsible to be unsustainable, because being unsustainable is irresponsible.

Unless, your making the case that anything which can't be maintained indefinitely is irresponsible, but that doesn't make sense either, because nothing lasts forever.

I can see why your having a hard time convincing people that being irresponsible is, well, irresponsible. They're wondering why you're talking.

I wanted to elaborate, but I had to rush off to take my kid to baseball.

You employed a fallacy called begging the question, in which you use circular reasoning. If I looked up "unsustainable" in the texionary, it would say something like, the irresponsbile use of a limited resource, i.e. the idea of irresponsibility is already in you definition of unsutainable. In other words, it's irresponsible to be unsustainable, because being unsustainable is irresponsible.

Unless, your making the case that anything which can't be maintained indefinitely is irresponsible, but that doesn't make sense either, because nothing lasts forever.

I can see why your having a hard time convincing people that being irresponsible is, well, irresponsible. They're wondering why you're talking.


Mike, I'll take your word for it that somewhere in the dictionary unsustainable equals irresponsible. Do you really think American native speakers equate the two? Hardly! When we are talking about sustainability in the context of our energy conversation it does not automatically equate to irresponsible. We can be using energy in an unsustainable way but not be aware of the fact or of the consequences. Irresponsibility has a negative connotation of knowingly doing something. Wouldn't you agree? Some do use energy in an unsustainable way and do so with full knowledge. Additionally, they continue with little regard to the consequences to those around them. Thus, acting irresponsibly. It’s those people, who don't care to research the subject or blatantly disregard scientific fact just so they can continuing doing what they are doing that I do not care if I lose credibility with.

However, you do not wish to be proven wrong here because you threw out an insult and you would feel quite silly misunderstanding the situation. Thus, you look up obscure references in the texionary in order to shore up your weakened argument. Hey, whatever floats your boat. The fact is, my statement makes perfect sense and is logical. Your continuing remarks on the subject serve no purpose but to further expose your error and are thus illogical. Do we actually have to go through another round of this silliness? If it will make your feel better and allow you to lick your wounded pride then fine. Enjoy. Here, maybe this will help. "Mike, you are right."

I think what you are missing is the that people don't just accept your definition of "sustainable." The word is just thrown out like is supposed to mean something beyond the obvious. The same argument could have been made 60 years ago. You see, it's all about numbers. But people like you don't like to use numbers, you just want people to accept it when you say something is unsustainable, because "unsustainable" is "irresponsible". You take it as article of faith that people would consume themselves into destruction. I have more faith in people.

But please, continue; you make a lot of good points. Just learn how to avoid logical fallacies.

P.S. texionary is short for "texas-dictionary"

You two are having a very odd conversation at this point. I definitely don't want to take a side on this one other than to make a technical point.


"unsustainable" is "irresponsible"

False. Sorry... "unsustainable" does not directly mean irresponsible nor do I think most people take it as such.

"The Spartan's Herculean defensive effort was unsustainable given the Persian's superior numbers." Were the Spartan's actions irresponsible? No, the level simply could not be sustained.

"Irresponsible" can be added as a subjective measurement, but is not implied by unsustainable (see dictionary.com (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/unsustainable)). If something is unsustainable that you want to be sustained, then I think most folks take this as action being required to achieve the goal, not necessarily that previous action were irresponsible.

But really, when folks are arguing over the definitions of words, that is generally the sign of debate lacking substance.

-Nuttzy :cool:

"False. Sorry... "unsustainable" does not directly mean irresponsible nor do I think most people take it as such."

Exactly, thats why I put the words in quotes.

"But really, when folks are arguing over the definitions of words, that is generally the sign of debate lacking substance."

Are you kidding? Where is substance, if not in the definition of words?

Exactly, thats why I put the words in quotes. Whoops! I see where I was confused now, thanks.

-Nuttzy :cool: