View Full Version : T. Boone Pickens Plan for Wind and CNG



Dr Mark
07-13-2008, 03:38 PM
Will this plan get any traction (see http://www.pickensplan.com)? This plan uses wind farms to displace our use of natural gas, then runs our vehicles on compressed natural gas (CNG), but it makes no mention of Plug-In Series Hybrid Electric Vehicles (PHEVs) like the Volt. Plug-in vehicles would be charged mainly at night which is also when wind power is most effective ( http://www.osti.gov/energycitations/purl.cover.jsp;jsessionid=DD7910FF8C78BA759986EE12 D4797BAD?purl=/15016266-Z5NPuw/native/ ). PHEVs are simply a better match to the power produced by wind farms than CNG vehicles. So why doesn't the Pickens Plan even mention the Chevy Volt?

Besides the "time of day" disconnect, natural gas turbines are used for peak load capacity because they can be brought up or shut down quickly to augment base load capacity provided by coal or nuclear (or any steam generator plant). Wind can't be brought up on demand like that, so it's only a good fit if you've got 50 million EV's out there soaking up the free juice.

There are huge new natural gas reserves being opened up in the U.S. and Canada, so the natural gas angle is very powerful and we should make as much of this good fortune as possible (http://www.oilshalegas.com/marcellusshale.html and also http://tonto.eia.doe.gov/energy_in_brief/natural_gas_production.cfm ). So I'm suspecting that Mr. Pickens really wants to keep demand high for Natural Gas by putting millions of CNG vehicles on the road. But as long as it's not Foreign Oil, I hope he and all the BP Capital stockholders get filthy richer. We can't throw PHEVs under the bus though because they are the best long-term solution as fuel options change since no change in the vehicles is required.

But here is the strongest part of the Pickens Plan: We do desparately need some technology to convert 200 million cars in America to run on something other than gasoline or diesel and CNG is a cheap transition involving replacing fuel injectors and updating some ignition timing chips (worst case; a full cylinder head replacement). But for new cars, I'd much rather PHEVs like GMs E-Flex vehicles; and they should come with either a gas, diesel or CNG gen-set; then even after the initial 40 miles I still wouldn't be using imported oil.

Hey, GM! Want some investment capital? Get Boone Pickens up there for a test drive and tell him you want to make the Volt run on CNG.

Jason M. Hendler
07-13-2008, 06:11 PM
Certainly, the electricity that his wind farms generate can / will be used to charge EV's and REEV's also, but the displaced natural gas could either be compressed or reduced to methanol for use in regular ICE vehicles or in range extenders for EV's.

Unfortunately, we are starting to import natural gas as well, instead of drilling for the vast reserves that we have off shore.

Koz
07-13-2008, 07:47 PM
Certainly, the electricity that his wind farms generate can / will be used to charge EV's and REEV's also, but the displaced natural gas could either be compressed or reduced to methanol for use in regular ICE vehicles or in range extenders for EV's.

Unfortunately, we are starting to import natural gas as well, instead of drilling for the vast reserves that we have off shore.

Do we have natural gas reserves offshore that can be cost effectively extracted? It is questionable how much oil can be cost effectively produced from offshore locations. Natural gas has different cost metrics alltogether. I don't proclaim to be an expert in wildcatting, but I don't think offshore drilling for natural gas in anything but near-shore, shallow waters can be done affordably.

That said, there is still plenty of sense in pushing Wind Farm development and plug-in EV's of all sorts as integral parts of our energy future. I think Dr. Mark hits on a very important point. What can be done about existing ICE vehicles. This is something that Andy Grove addressed in his article that is discussed here (http://gm-volt.com/forum/showthread.php?p=7985#post7985). Mr. Groves article points to converting existing ICE vehicles to use electricity during the transition factory produced plug-ins, but doesn't point to any technology to acheive this. I don't see one that would be practical either. What Dr. Mark suggests does seem much more feasible. Also, range extenders using methanol, NG, or other biofuel are good ideas too. The only issue is infrastructure. We still have the chicken/egg problem to overcome. Because of this, the first generation of EREV's will have to be able to use gas or deisel in the very least. I don't think it would be good if the ICE could be flex fuel but not if it increases time to market or cost. GM is already working on their second generation EREV powertrain and I hope they are considering these issues. This is one of the big advantage of some of the rotary technologies, along with size and ultimately cost.

Jason M. Hendler
07-13-2008, 08:23 PM
The only major problem in converting to electricity is in the area of freight, where the size / weight / cost of batteries is just too prohibitively expensive. To solve this particular problem, the front running technologies are:

- bio-deisel from Jatropha curcas - no change in vehicles necessary
- ethanol - higher compression ratios give you higher torque
- compressed natural gas

All these can benefit from hydraulic regenerative breaking, as it is cheap, but not much.

DonC
07-13-2008, 08:55 PM
What can be done about existing ICE vehicles.

The only thing I know of is a Pousen Hybrid. Basically it's a battery pack that, with the help of some electronics, runs two hub motors. You attach the hub motors to the wheels that aren't otherwise being driven. You can read more about it here:

http://www.poulsenhybrid.com/index.html

Obviously not as elegant as a Volt, but it should be effective. Should be useful on any vehicle. The bigger the pack the bigger the boost. It's also not very hard to wire in. Just a few hour job. The plan was to have it be available shortly through some dealer/installers. But Poulsen is a small company so it's not like bringing the weight of GM manufacturing to bear.

It is entered in the Automotive X Prize. Because it's really more a retrofit than new technology, it hasn't received much attention. But some have started giving it second looks and thinking it to be the darkhorse contender.

It does have the potential to have the biggest impact immediately.

As for CNG, you rightly point out that there are supply problems there as well, though this would be from domestic sources. Alaska has a ton of it but even the planned pipeline, assuming it is actually built, won't be ready until 2018.

Another problem for CNG vehicles is that they have the same 20% effeciency as any ICE vehicle. That's the kicker with all the alternative fuels for ICEs -- at the end of the day they end up powering a very ineffecient vehicle -- so you need a lot of it.