In 2006, GM unveiled a plugin hybrid 2-mode Saturn VUE concept six months before unveiling the Volt concept. Since the 2-mode hybrid system was already near production, and the plugin version would require a smaller battery than the Volt, it appeared likely that car would make it to market first.
However, since the Volt met such strong public praise, and GM was desperate for positive press, product guru Bob Lutz pushed the Volt program ahead to leapfrog all else.
Over these years we have seen and heard about the 2-mode plugin hybrid in various forms; there was the VUE, then after Saturn folded a Buick version. Later the system was shown in a Cadillac XTS flagship concept.
The system has been operational though in small test fleets for years. In fact, more than two years ago I test drove a perfectly satisfactory 2-mode plugin SUV on GM’s proving grounds. At the time I heard off the record from GM insiders that a Cadillac SRX 2-mode plugin hybrid was being brought to production.
Now the latest iteration, and in my opinion the one that makes the most sense, is leaking into the media, though not yet of course officially announced.
Jim Frederico, who is GM’s electric vehicle chief, alluded to reporters in Australia that his company was readying a plug-in hybrid version of the Cruze. When I met Frederico in the past he told me GM had extensive future electric vehicle plans, but was very tight lipped about them as the Volt was about to be launched. Currently, he didn’t say the Volt would be abandoned but that the two would complement each other in the product portfolio.
“The Volt will always be a plug-in electric vehicle,” Federico told GoAuto. “Plug-in Cruze doesn’t make Volt redundant at all. Plug-in Cruze would have a different powertrain. Plug-in hybrids use both the engine and motor all the time.”
The plug-in Cruze would be able to compete directly with the plugin Prius for which Toyota is currently accepting orders.
The car would presumably have a small battery, perhaps 1/3 the size of the Volt, and be able to travel 10 or 15 miles on electric only at low load demand. High loads and speeds would cause the gas engine to go on and it would drive the car once the battery reaches the depletion point.
The car’s small size lends to more fuel efficiency by the 2-mode plugin system than larger vehicles like SUVs. Also since the Cruze is in mass production and priced below $20,000, it is likely GM could make the plug-in Cruze affordable – think under $30,000 without rebate.
Furthermore customers going into showrooms to see the Volt and instead buying the Cruze for cost reason, would likely be more tempted to get the plugin version.
Before we get too excited, GM communications as usual gives us the official party (pooper) line, this time attributable to Kevin Kelly:
We have not announced a Cruze PHEV and currently have no plans to produce a Cruze PHEV. Federico was providing direction on the multiple technologies that GM continues to work on in the hybrid space. We have said on several occasions that PHEV technology is something GM continues to work on, but we have no production plans or timing announced yet.
And so just maybe our horizon of a world less dependent on oil slowly widens.
Source (Go Auto)
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This entry was posted on Wednesday, November 30th, 2011 at 5:55 am and is filed under Cruze, PHEV. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed. Both comments and pings are currently closed.
+18
Nov 30th, 2011 (6:04 am)Welcome back as the Founder and Editor emeritus of gm-volt, Lyle! I particularly look forward to the discussion of your topic today (some here may recall that my interest in the plug-in version of GM’s scaled-down 2-mode drive actually preceded my interest in the Volt drive train). In fact, I jumped the gun and bought a 2008 Saturn Vue with the intent of trading up to a 2-mode Vue plug-in when it finally became available. I still believe there’s a viable market for (and I’m still hoping for) a 2-mode (or EREV) CUV because I need the CUV’s greater towing & hauling capability.
+7
Nov 30th, 2011 (6:28 am)Welcome back,Lyle.
In addition to more “plug-in” hybrids, GM should convert all of its other models to some form of an electrical motor assist to the ICE, also known as eAssist, The LaCrosse is quite attractive as a beautiful Buick, a good sized sedan, and with great fuel economy, thanks to the eAssist model which GM has listed with the same price as the regular V6 ICE model.
Since eAssist increases the gas millage, and can move the vehicle under electrical power, this can be the first step in electrifying the full range of GM models, from the Sonic to the trucks and SUVs, and from Chevrolet to Cadillac. The very top models will always be the pure EV and EREV, but stepping up with eAssist will improve the MPG average and GM will become the leader in hybrids and EV vehicles in a few years.
Raymond
+6
Nov 30th, 2011 (6:53 am)Thanks for the post Lyle.
A $30,000 PHEV would fill out the Chevy Electric lineup, along with the Volt and the Spark EV.
However, I’d MUCH rather keep my Volt, and drive all-electric around town.
Now if only Cadillac would add an EREV XTS, in addition to the announced ELR. The EREV XTS would be great for road trips, and also great around town in all-electric mode. Caddy could one-up Rolls by going electric (EREV) first.
GSP
+4
Nov 30th, 2011 (6:54 am)P.S. Lyle, that EREV XTS would make a great “doctor’s car!”
GSP
+10
Nov 30th, 2011 (6:55 am)To me it does not make sense on the efficiency of PHEV cars. I was looking at Prius and the prices. The latest one is in the range of $32k. It gies 12 miles on electric but ICE comes on when power is needed. It has good gas mileage in the upper 40′s mpg.
The price diff between the Prius and VOLT is 2-3K after rebate. May be only 2K. VOLT is all that it can be. Luxry car with no gas usage running around town. Long distance runs on electric + ICE. However, maintenance cost of VOLT much lower than PHEV. This has been discussed here many times. IMO Prius does not make sense with such a small price difference. What gives?
+9
Nov 30th, 2011 (6:56 am)I recall reading this article, and would be overjoyed at the chance to produce a plug in Cruze as the Cruze is already produced in Australia, as opposed to the Volt which will be imported at attract a massive price tag because of it. A plug in Cruze would be 1/2 the price of a volt here (unless they make the volt here too). I say Bring it on, and do it soon please… give Toyota a run for its money and I in turn will be throwing money at GM.
+5
Nov 30th, 2011 (8:06 am)Great to see you Lyle and hope all has been well with you!
The Cruze PHEV has been on many wishlists around here for a long time. I would have to estimate based on what I’ve read of Ford Escape and Toyota Prius PHEV’s that a Cruze with a plug would get similar 70 mpg or better, fuel economy. And if they could keep the MSRP under $30 grand, I think they could have a hit on their hands. If GM needs some motivation to build this car, they need to look no further than Ford and Toyota. Ford’s next Fusion is rumored to be getting a plug-in version in a few years, and Toyota will shortly offer the Plug-in Prius.
Now to steal a phrase from Noel Park, “From their lips to God’s ear”.
+7
Nov 30th, 2011 (8:07 am)Miss us Lyle????
C-5277 – Proudly Purchased On 10-04-2011 In Youngstown, Ohio
Nov 30th, 2011 (8:08 am)I hate to so it but I will say it anyway.
I told you so.
+4
Nov 30th, 2011 (8:18 am)Having made that arrogant remark, lets get serious about this concept.
I wish WOT was here to discuss this as he is the only one I know that REALLY understands the 2 mode. Well, that’s not true. BillR is in there also.
This configuration makes tons of sense for people that spend more time on the highway. As your percent of driving time on the hwy goes to around 70-80 % the advantage of the Volt disappear in favor of a 2 mode.
We have discussed whether, from a marketing point of view, this makes sense since it is head on w/ the Prius.
but does or doesn’t it is it make sense???
The 2 mode trans is much more sophisticated than the Prius.
Key question: What is the highest speed that can be achieved in pure electric mode for the 2 mode plug in.
What advantages does the 2 mode transmission have over the Prius HSD?
+3
Nov 30th, 2011 (8:24 am)Totally agree.
I’d love to see this car kick butt on the Prius plug in.
+2
Nov 30th, 2011 (8:29 am)I can think of one disadvantage this concept has over the Pip.
Cost.
The 2 mode trany is more complex.
More clutches and 2 planetary gear sets instead of one.
However that may take a back seat to efficiency.
+3
Nov 30th, 2011 (8:46 am)I’m with Pat on this one. The Volt makes this whole segment irrelevant. As we’ve discussed, this design only makes sense for people covering over 70 miles a day regularly. What’s the market for that???
If it came in A LOT cheaper, well then … maybe, but how ’bout we stick to the knitting and get the price of the Volt down and get more Voltec vehicle types in the showroom??!!
+4
Nov 30th, 2011 (8:51 am)Thanks for the post Lyle–great to hear from you. And good to hear GM is forging ahead with more EV options. Hopefully we can get onto real news again and off the ridiculous “fire hazzard” nonsense the trolls want to focus on. Hope all is well with you and yours.
+1
Nov 30th, 2011 (8:52 am)You have to look at the numbers WITHOUT the government rebate to make the comparison.
+5
Nov 30th, 2011 (9:09 am)I believe this is the main reason GM has not been promoting the 2-mode over the last few years. If GM was to replace all automatic transmissions with the 2-mode and gain the benefits of large scale production, I think GM could get the cost of the 2-mode to be near the cost of automatic transmissions. Don’t forget that the market for automatic transmissions has been moving up in number of gears for some time now, and the 2-Mode represents an infinitely variable gear ratio. These transmissions with 6 to 8 gears have got to be very complex and expensive.
+1
Nov 30th, 2011 (9:12 am)I don’t think this is feasible. It would have to be much cheaper than a Plug in Prius, which itself is only slightly cheaper than a Volt. I doubt they could design and manufacture them and not sell them for around $30,000 at which point it will lose. It would need to come in sub-$25,000 to be viable, and I don’t think the tech is there yet.
+2
Nov 30th, 2011 (9:31 am)There are also workings in Korea to develop an all-electric Cruze in conjunction with LG Chem. Apparently it is only a test vehicle at this time.
Taking the Cruze ECO from 40-42 mpg on the hwy to 50-55 mpg would help meet CAFE standards. If it can come in $4-6K less in cost would be a welcome situation too.
Making an econo-car “more econo” is a mass appeal move, but to really cut down on oil usage we need to see the larger-scale vehicles being electrified. The articles on Smith creating an all-electric delivery truck in Brooklyn is promising as such trucks run in the 10-12 mpg range. Fleet sales of EVs in this manner would be a welcome move. Taxis also would be great EV solutions – we do see Prius on the roads in NYC but many other taxis are not hybrids and would benefit from higher mpg and stop-start efficiencies.
Pickup trucks are the #1 sold vehicle in the USA. eAssist and hybridization for such trucks will be very-key to helping cut oil usage. Along with even a 1 mpg improvement for 18-wheel long-haul trucking.
I’d like to see what comes out of this meeting:
http://www.evupdate.com/fleetusa/
+3
Nov 30th, 2011 (9:33 am)GM axed the two-mode SRX Caddy SUV in May due to it’s underperforming during testing and cost. Memos from GM suggested soon thereafter that the battery pack underperformed expectations ( A123? ) and the PHEV SRX would not go the target 10 miles in electric mode. How close did engineers get to 10 miles AER? Nobody knows.
Last Summer GM CFO Tim Ammann stated the company’s product plan needed to “settle down” in order to reduce the cost of frequent changes of direction. That said, news of a “next gen fwd two-mode” hybrid system to replace the current one have been frequent. Fredrico alluded to a 2014 implementation of the PHEV Cruze in Australia, to fill out the Cruze line there with a clean diesel being introduced in 2013. What will we get? Only GM knows. The next gen PHEV system GM is working on has been said to be “Volt based”. What this means is unclear, although it’s a given that a PHEV Cruze would sport a smallish 5 – 6 kwh battery pack. We do know from GM that a PHEV Cruze would be a more conventionally designed hybrid leaving space for Voltec.
GM has many challenges on it’s plate to outperform the existing fwd two-mode system. The VUE/Buick/SRX system just didn’t cut it – too little performance at too much cost. With the axe of the SRX PHEV we finally got our answer as to why no fwd 2 mode SUV. The Cruze PHEV with the current 2-mode would be a lighter vehicle with better aero – so a midgap PHEV could happen should the market heat up sufficiently for the green light. It makes me wonder when they compare it ( current system ) to PIP, Plug In Prius is a dedicated vehicle with a superior proprietery ICE and much better aero. No PHEV Cruze is going to match the 50 mpg. hwy, 15 mile AER of the PIP, even with grille shutters and aero tweaks. The PHEV Cruze may feel more solid than PIP and handle better, but it will be competing for eco-minded customers, thus will have to compete mainly on price.
GM has suggested the new 2-mode fwd system will be ready by 2015. Along with the current NHTSA investigative flap – I believe GM won’t be in too big of hurry to introduce a new PHEV before the dust settles there.
Bottom line: We’ll see a clean diesel Cruze in 2013, but don’t expect this PHEV version any time soon.
VOLT, MORE DRIVE – LESS FILLING! ,
James
Nice to have you back in the saddle writing good articles, Lyle! Your new blog on aging is very good too!
+3
Nov 30th, 2011 (9:36 am)I don’t think this is a good idea. I’d rather see the focus on the Voltec platform to drive down costs than to have this as a cheaper solution. It just means if this takes up the middle of the road price, it will be that much longer before the Volt drops in price.
Nov 30th, 2011 (9:36 am)#19 – do you have details or those emails/comments from GM? Underperformance can happen by choosing a too-small electric motor. A battery system may be sized too small but that may just be an engineering problem. I wouldn’t start naming names either unless you have evidence. If you want to see performance, look up Killacycle (an A123 drag bike) which is incredibly fast. Performance is a matter of sizing input products correctly for the duty cycle. If it was a parallel system, maybe both engine and electric motor were sized wrong and engineering needs to continue to revise it or they could just can it due to costs.
+1
Nov 30th, 2011 (9:37 am)Great to hear from you Lyle!
Any news of expanding plug-in vehicle availability is positive.
However, Chevrolet has already established the Cruze as a solid, value packed, fuel efficient compact car. Cruze sales thus far have exceeded expectations. The Cruze ECO model is touted as the most fuel efficient gas engine car in America. While the Chevrolet has spent money building the Volt brand name as the world’s first extended range electric vehicle.
It seems to me that the more straightforward approach from a brand and marketing perspective would be to continue improving the Cruze and maintaining it as a cost-effective, value packed, fuel efficient compact car…. and expanding the Volt brand by adding a less expensive VOLTEC powertrain or, if necessary, a Plug-In Hybrid version. It would be far easier to mass market a less expensive Volt (perceived to be a premium product) than to market a more costly Cruze (perceived to be a value based, price sensitive product).
That keeps Cruze competing with Corolla and Civic and Volt with Prius. JMHO based on what we know today.
+2
Nov 30th, 2011 (9:51 am)Regarding the miles per day, out where I live (far western suburbs of Philadelphia) there are people who do drive 50-70 miles, sometimes one way, to their jobs. Sometimes in NJ. I knew people who worked an assembly-line job in NJ 75 miles from home, one way and they drove it daily. For an under $20/hr job. We have a large # of people doing that, judging on the # of cars on the western spurs of the highway heading towards Philadelphia, and a high mpg car could truly help when the price of gas goes way up. We also have a big market for used vehicles and so we see a lot of old Toyota Corollas, Chevy Cobalts and other smaller cars out here.
Let’s not forget – if Cruze has a diesel come out, it will be roughly 48-50 mpg hwy. A Plug in parallel hybrid will be just slightly better, but then also offer nice stop-start efficiencies and some AER. It fits the need better for urban and suburban travel while the diesel is for long-miles on the highway.
I think the Volt fits the higher middle-class, living nearer to their workplace or even retired or semi-retired folks who can afford it. For “working class folks” (the lower middle class) the Plug-in Cruze and standard models fit the need and we see it’s high sales rate now. Going one step further fills the gap that Prius held for the high-mileage green-vehicles. I like the idea and look forward to seeing how they build it. By 2015, cost of scale efficiencies should come into play. By 2015, we still cannot predict oil prices or dollar/Yen exchange so this hedges against those uncertainties.
+1
Nov 30th, 2011 (9:51 am)First off, it’s Great to hear from Lyle.
Two-mode Cruze makes little sense to me. E-assist Cruze would seem a more viable low cost option unless they’ve redesigned the two-mode to be much cheaper. I totally agree with the others that feel a two-mode plug-in CUV and/or small pickup and/or minivan make more sense if Voltec isn’t capable or too expensive.
I’m all for lower cost, electrified solutions but the marketing aim for them should similar class ICE solutions not so much the Prius. The Volt, Leaf, and other more efficient solutions will eat into Prius sales going forward. Now, if they downsize the Volt battery and power electronics then up the power output of the engine and redo the control software to create a more parallel Voltec lite. At least this would up the volume for most Voltec components and bring down the cost.
I believe GM should be more outside the box and forward thinking with their alternative drivetrains rather than trying to take another slice out of the small economy car, high efficiency market via the two-mode powertrain.
+2
Nov 30th, 2011 (9:53 am)Thanks for the article Lyle. Having just purchased a Volt and loving it, I’m still really happy that the Plug-in Prius is coming out (this would be a great car for me) and really hope the Plug-in Cruze becomes a reality. Anything to reduce fuel consumption is good.
It feels like we’ve passed the tipping point for plug-in vehciles (I hope that’s true).
In the week I’ve had the Volt everyone I’ve talked to has loved the idea of the plug-in vehicle accept for the price.
I’m looking forward to the November sales numbers for the Leaf and Volt to come out. I hope both are good.
+3
Nov 30th, 2011 (9:54 am)Wonder if Volt will move to Cadillac and this will move the Cruze up a notch. GM is trying to fill out their portfolio as they’ve been weak in the hybrid area. Volt hits the top, e-assist the bottom and PHEV in the middle. Diesel Cruze will be another great option.
#13. That’s me. 35k a year for mileage, 55-80 miles one way to work. Wife drives the other direction 20 miles one way. HCHII does ok, Volt tempting other than the premium gas penalty (which would add up in my case). On the plus side, more plug-ins (and greater efficiency/mpg/etc.) from GM are a good thing.
Always good to see your input Lyle.
+6
Nov 30th, 2011 (9:57 am)One mistake (IMHO) that GM keeps making is restricting their MPG tech to base models. Their thinking must be that if you want a fuel efficient car then you must only want a cheap one as well. Dang it I’m an American and I want it all!
We went to look at a Lacrosse expecting to either drive one home or put in an order only to be disappointed that the E-assist was only offered in the lower trim levels. Same thing with the two mode Hybrid when that came out. Went to get a new Suburban and wanted the hybrid version. Nope. Only in a Tahoe. Really? That extra 2 feet of sheet metal, glass and frame means you can’t have the hybrid? If that extra couple of pounds in a 5000 lbs vehicle puts the engineering over the edge then I question whether I want it all. Bought a used Suburban instead thinking the Hybrid one would be following shortly and I would trade it in. That was quite a while ago, still waiting…
If all I wanted was the cheapest new car out there then I probably wouldn’t be in a GM dealership in the first place. I would be at a KIA or Hyundai lot getting their cheapest sedan with nothing for options. Cutting edge MPG whether it be a Volt getting 200+ MPG, a 36 MPG Buick or a Suburban getting 25 MPG isn’t about saving $$ it is about having the latest, coolest, high tech and knowing you are doing your part to move the ball.
GM has to stop treating cutting edge fuel mileage as something that is for cheap economy cars. First off the margins just aren’t there to absorb it and people have a hard time paying that much extra in a base model to save gas because now you have indeed framed the argument in pure economic terms. And in pure economic terms quite often the quick answer is that it just isn’t worth it unless gas hits some much higher number. Anti-lock brakes, electronic fuel injection, stability control, satellite radio, air bags, etc., where did these debut? In the entry level machines? No. They debuted in Cadillac and Corvette where the price point of the vehicles could take the impact of new pricey tech. Then as the tech matured and the price came down it went down line into the more economical vehicles.
High MPG needs to be marketed as another performance metric. Decades ago performance was measured in just one way. Straight line acceleration and how big the engine was. Then at some point performance started to include being able to stop and turn once you got going. Now most performance vehicles, with a few exceptions, also have to be luxury machines. Get cutting edge MPG added to the metrics that a performance machine is judged by and you will have no problem getting it down to other vehicles. The higher $$ cars can pay for the engineering and once it is mature enough you can put it into the lower cost vehicles and more importantly from a business perspective, you can get people to pay for it instead of being stuck with a lot full of expensive, “cheap” cars that no one is willing to pay up for. (Malibu hybrid comes to mind…)
Rant off. Okay, not yet. The only way the “pay for MPG” model works in the lower price point vehicles is if gas hits some high number. But then at $(plug in your definition of high gas price here) a gallon who is going to be buying a new car? Not too many. A plug in Cruze?? People buy a Cruze because it is cheaper then a Malibu. If you offered exactly equipped Cruze’s and Malibu’s for the same price how many would drive off in the Cruze? I’m guessing not many. So buying a Cruze is largely an economic decision. Now when offered the option of the plug in for more $$ what is the prospective buyer going to do? Whip out their calculator and start punching numbers. We’ll see what those numbers are if it happens but I am not optimistic. It pains me because this is what kills off this tech from making it in the market place.
+2
Nov 30th, 2011 (10:04 am)It still pains me when manufacturer’s STUBBURNLY insist on re-equipping existing cars to hybrid form – THEN they compare this hybrid to Prius. Prius was like Volt – designed from day one to be what it is – a gas-stingey car. Prius’ extreme sales success proves a proprietary vehicle that looks different and is quickly identifiable as a hybrid will outsell a converted vehicle that looks just like it’s ICE brethren.
When GM says Plug In Prius in the same sentence with PHEV Cruze, it makes me groan. There is no way the existng 2-mode fwd system GM has inside a current Cruze will even come close to Prius performance. Not only that, but my aforementioned point that first responders have more of a challenge determining if a wrecked hybrid contains electrical hazards when it looks exactly like it’s ICE counterpart. Nearly anyone who eyes a Prius or Volt knows it’s electric. Not so with other hybrids. Why is nobody talking about this – and instead are going on a witchhunt on Volt?!!!
GM talks openly about it’s 4-mode hybrid system in development for pickup trucks. This is a next-gen system with more gearing options for more possible modes of operation – heavy to light duty. GM has also mentioned it’s working on a new fwd 2 mode system for 2015. For a PHEV Cruze to compete with PIP performance-wise, it’ll HAVE to be a new 2+ mode system whose battery packs outperform the existing ones GM is testing today. I believe it will also need a new nose – one without the gaping grille of ICE Cruze, and steeper approach angles for the windshield.
Everyone wants a headline. Everyone wants to claim they have a hybrid too. I know tooling and stamping of new body forms is very expensive, as is design and tweaking factory capabilities. The rewards of such expense is segment domination. Make a PHEV look different – take a chance GM and make money instead of go with the flow!
RECHARGE! .
James
+3
Nov 30th, 2011 (10:08 am)As an owner of the two mode Tahoe Hybrid, I was excited to see discussion of a plugin version last year. THAT is what I want to hear about. IMHO GM is barking up the wrong tree to offer this version of plugin on a very similar platform. Please GM, test these waters with something people with (more than 2 kids/ towing needs/ off road ambitions ) are waiting for. A plugin Cruze is too much of the same. Give us DIFFERENT options!
Nov 30th, 2011 (10:20 am)On another note, there is a misperception that the Voltec drivetrain cannot achieve excellent CS mileage. It absolutely can. GM’s former electric drivetrain engineer said and those “gaming” mountain mode have proven Voltec is capable of CS highway mileage on par with Synergy drive. The drawback is poor NVH and perhaps some archaic regulatory issues.
+3
Nov 30th, 2011 (10:35 am)Expanding on my #29 comment:
I get 24 mpg (city and highway) in my Tahoe Hybrid. One place I frequently hunt is 3.5 miles away. Since the engine never heats up in this short distance, my average mpg is just 14 mpg. I, therefore, burn about a half gallon of gas with each trip. If I had a plug in option with, say 12 all electric miles (and I don’t exceed 35 mph on this trip), I could make each trip all electric. I can’t put a deer IN a Volt (or Cruze) and an external, towing attached cargo carrier is not an option. If I get a deer, I have to haul it to a processing place and (for example) a 40 mpg trip (averaged with battery input) would be much better than the 24 mpg I currently get. I think about NOT burning gas with every trip I make and to read that GM’s next foray into EV land is ANOTHER small vehicle- well, that’s just plain exasperating.
GM, you need TWO bases covered; the game is poorly played when you want an additional base runner standing on the same bag as the first!
+4
Nov 30th, 2011 (10:38 am)Driving 46mph on the highway with phev Cruise to avoid the gas engine coming on will be very dangerous but unavoidable when gas is $5 a gallon.
I just don’t like this concept with the PHEV.
A BEV with enough range to go 80 miles even in the cold winter or hot high AC months makes sense.
An EREV makes sense.
What I really want to see is not a cruise trying to be a PHEV PRIUS.
What makes sense is an EREV with a 5kwh battery. That way instead of going on the highway 45mph to avoid using gas, I could go 65mph for 12 miles without using gas, but could still get great gas miles because of lighter battery, a purpose build efficient engine, and the car would be much cheaper than the volt. This is the car that would put Prius out of business.
+18
Nov 30th, 2011 (10:53 am)Thanks for all the well-wishes – its nice to post here from time to time. Jeff is doing an awesome job and I’m so glad the site fell into his hands. My main fear about stepping back was the inability to sustain the news, and fortunately that fear turned out to be unfounded.
I couldn’t resist this topic as I had been following it for so long.
Nov 30th, 2011 (11:00 am)As far as I know the current Cruze does not have a 2 mode powertrain.
Someone please correct me if I am wrong.
+2
Nov 30th, 2011 (11:05 am)I tend to agree with this. We had this discussion when the Volt’s CS MPG first was announced by the EPA.
I believe we concluded that it was the ICE that was the major contributing factor when comparing the CS mode MPG of the Volt to the Prius. If GM upgraded the powerplant in the volt AND played more with gaming mountain mode, it would allow the Volt to achieve Prius CS mode MPG IMO.
Nov 30th, 2011 (11:09 am)pdt,
Hi pdt. Glad to have one of the “old ones” back. Congrats on your Volt. Believe it or not I was thinking about a forum thread you did a long time ago on global warming the other day since I have been studying GW more lately. It was between you and Altazi. Pretty good one.
+5
Nov 30th, 2011 (11:15 am)Analysis are now saying small cars are in. The Cruze is proof to that. GM will need something
new every year to keep the sale momentum going. A diesel is planned and then a year later, a
plug-in. The Cruze is an excellent subject for a plug-in. It is aerodynamic an overall is an
excellent car. With the two mode, it will exceed the gas mileage of any Prius with no problems.
The problem lies with the price. That is why GM got back in making electric motors, so they
can lower the cost by a great deal with automation.
+4
Nov 30th, 2011 (11:16 am)First of all; I think the PIP; both packages are over-priced by at least 3K IMHO. I just don’t see how the 2 mode system can compete with the HSD system in smaller vehicles. The HSD is now very refined and relatively simple mechanics and maintenance. The 2 mode system is complex and may have more maintenance in the long term. E-assist & direct injection should become standard features to further reduce their cost and gain their benefits. With baby boomers getting wiser; I think vehicles like the comfortable, Malibu should have the most refinement. Improve Malibu’s exterior looks, lessen the weight, make it exciting with efficiency and affordable; KISS JMO.
+3
Nov 30th, 2011 (11:20 am)Wow, I check back one day after months of being prodigal and Lyle posts an article? Coincidence? Anyway, this is an interesting concept that GM feels like it can go toe to toe with the Pious… I mean Prius. There’s a few issues I’m wondering about.
1. Will GM implement this before their tax credits run out? I ask because it seems they are really selling the Volt slowly to savor those tax credits. Aside: I know technically the tax credits are for the customer, but the point is that they can sell it for a lot more when customers can get a $7,500 credit.
2. Seeings how a PI Cruze would compete more or less directly with an eco Cruze (at least in a lot of customers’ minds), would there be any way it would make sense? Going from 40 to 50 mpg is pretty modest when you figure that’s only saving an extra 60 gallons per year assuming the car was driving 12,000 miles/year. That saves you from filling it up about 4 times a year. Then you’ve got electricity costs and the liability of replacing a battery every 10 years or so (these will cycle MUCH more than a Volt). Add to that a $10,000 premium, and figure the Volt is only a couple grand more, I’m not sure this would be a big seller.
+1
Nov 30th, 2011 (11:20 am)Lyle,
Nice to hear from you again.
-4
Nov 30th, 2011 (11:42 am)Yes, price is a very real problem. The added complexity presents cost-saving challenges. As for efficiency, squeezing out 55 MPG (that of Prius C, which is similar sized to Cruze), isn’t supported by any of the evidence so far. What now suggests it could?
$30,000 has been the magic price-point. Hitting that prior to the $2,500 tax-credit expiring means a $2,000 price drop. It’s not that far of a stretch seeing that happen within the next few years.
I’m in that same position. How many years have I been saying a second, more affordable version of Volt must be offered?
The product gap should have been obvious. Now what do those who were mocking the idea of a smaller battery-pack and blended highway cruising have to say?
+3
Nov 30th, 2011 (11:46 am)More plug-ins are always appreciated. Thanks to Jeff and Lyle who have provided a great forum to discuss Volt and EV related issues.
+1
Nov 30th, 2011 (11:53 am)#7
LOL! Thanks. Haven’t used that one in a while. I’m amazed that you remember. I guess I’ll have to trot it out some more! Best regards. +1
+1
Nov 30th, 2011 (11:55 am)#11
Oh yeah! +1
Nov 30th, 2011 (12:40 pm)It will be interesting when we see an official announcement. It sounds like a sensible plan to market a vehicle like this. I wonder if it will cause some confusion between the Volt and Cruze though.
Nov 30th, 2011 (12:47 pm)#41 john1701a BLIND GUY: First of all; I think the PIP; both packages are over-priced by at least 3K IMHO.
$30,000 has been the magic price-point. Hitting that prior to the $2,500 tax-credit expiring means a $2,000 price drop. It’s not that far of a stretch seeing that happen within the next few years.
Maybe; but I also recall reading speculation talk of 28K starting price for the new PIP by guesstimating what changes were needed to create the plug-in version. Speaking of the 2500 tax credit; why didn’t Toyota put a larger battery in to improve AER, when the customer can recover the cost of a bigger battery with bigger tax credit eligibility? It seems to me that if you’re going to build a plug-in then why not make it more worthwhile for more people, especially while the tax credits are available.
+1
Nov 30th, 2011 (1:01 pm)Ten days ago, toward the end of the Los Angeles Auto Show media preview, GM executive Jim Federico told Australia’s Go-Auto site: “The plug-in Cruze has a place and it will be a hybrid.”
The PHEV Cruze he spoke of was announced to appear there in 2014 – thus yes, it exists, even if in testing form. This was the extant fwd 2-mode I spoke of. The next gen 2-mode won’t be online until 2015 or later , according to GM.
Hope that cleared it up for you.
RECHARGE! ,
James
-6
Nov 30th, 2011 (1:12 pm)Toyota has repeatedly pointed out that PIP is a hybrid, not an EV. The added capacity & plug are to boost MPG. Seating and above-the-false-floor cargo storage were not affected at all.
They also don’t want any dependency on tax-credits, knowing how they can suddenly vanish (think 2013 budget cuts) and wanting to achieve self-sustaining profitability from high-volume sales quickly.
Isn’t that what a plug-in Cruze would want to achieve too?
-8
Nov 30th, 2011 (1:27 pm)Looooong expensive dam way around to get back to the start.
Hope GM got all the PR/Halo they hoped for (and the taxpayers paid for) out of the Volt.
Nov 30th, 2011 (1:37 pm)Hey Bionaire, always willing to back up my posts.
When it was announced that GM had canned it’s SRX 2-mode PHEV program, GM’s first response was to deny that such a program existed. You can find this information online from reputable media sources – the one I included here is Rueters. As you can see, soon thereafter GM execs admitted such a program did exist ( awkward! ), and I think it was due to pictures floating around the web of a blacked-out, white SRX cruising around GM testing grounds and public roads with a very crudely welded left quarter panel “2nd gas cap” showing. Several inside sources admitted it was indeed the SRX 2 mode PHEV project ( VUE; e-Buick platform ).
When GM made it official in May, they cited costs and a generational conflict between existing technology and the introduction of the next gen SRX. Much noise in and around GM soon revealed a deeper reason(s) existed other than sheer cost. I personally have a source at GM who explained to me the shortcomings of that particular system – to which I will not elaborate other than the source is reputable but asked not to be identified. The shortcomings were mainly in the performance of the pack as I defined before.
If still dubious, photos of the aforementioned SRX tester are readily available – some are on gm-authority.com.. There is no doubt GM is testy about this information as I’ve stated, there are many conflicts and conundrums they face with battery density and cost mixed with the de rigueur company secrets.
1) http://www.thecarconnection.com/news/1060955_2013-cadillac-srx-plug-in-hybrid-killed-but-reasons-are-complex
2) http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/05/27/us-generalmotors-srx-idUSTRE74Q5J520110527
3) http://gmauthority.com/blog/2011/06/cadillac-srx-plug-in-hybrid-killed-because-of-weak-battery/
As expected, GM is not forthwith with information explaining their vulnerabilities in getting an affordable PHEV into the market. Toyota has had over a decade to develop Prius, Plug In Prius, and all the Prii derivitives. As others have explained here, Volt is penultimate in the clean-practical(ish) mpg game, and eco Cruze, 2-mode Buick, and future Spark create a rather large hole in the middle area for GM, price and performance-wise.
So far, it appears GM is far away from a solution to this and a PHEV Cruze using existing tech would be a relatively easy way to fill that gap – for now. Can they do it for a price that undercuts PIP? Maybe. Can they match PIP performance? Not at the present time.
We here at gm-volt.com speak sometimes with grandious aspirations of battery tech innovation. In reality, there is a ton of innovation out there, but the wheels of industry move much slowwwwwwer. Thus seeing new battery tech actually on a showroom will take years and years. I know we all expect gen II Volt to reach 45-50mpg in CS mode, and get 70 miles AER all for a nice price of around $30,000… That really isn’t in the picture anytime soon. I’m certain if other factors ( NHTSA investigations… ) don’t snuff Volt out completely, we will see such vehicles eventually. A 2015+ 2nd gen 2+ mode Cruze may be piece of that puzzle.
RECHARGE! ,
James
Nov 30th, 2011 (1:41 pm)IMHO this indicates GM sees slow improvement in battery cost and energy density.
Let the all-knowing determinists rant as they will.
+3
Nov 30th, 2011 (1:54 pm)Welcome back, Lyle. Great to see a familiar “face” again.
Be well,
Tagamet
+1
Nov 30th, 2011 (2:08 pm)James,
“Can they match PIP performance? Not at the present time.”
I would think they could BEAT Pip performance. They have very similar drag coefficients PLUS a more efficient way to match to the ICE optimum efficiency islands w/ the 2 mode. Don’t forget that they have two planetary gear sets in the 2 mode and the Pip has just 1. If operated in the proper manner I would think that this would allow the plug in Cruze to run to a higher speed on battery power alone. However I would defer to WOT on that point. The prius w/ only 1 planetary has to run the ICE away from optimum efficiency at around 60 MPH or so. This is why my gen2 Prius gets only around 46MPG when operated at 75+ MPH freeway speeds
The problem comes in the cost department once we start talking 2 mode. However, as Roy pointed out , in mass production this cost disadvantage could be minimized.
Nov 30th, 2011 (2:09 pm)Thanks for the post-Lyle post, Lyle!
… and a big welcome back to you, Tagamet!!
Nov 30th, 2011 (2:21 pm)I don’t understand putting a plug on a hybrid with that small of battery? Just leave it a hybrid Cruze or E-assist Cruze and get rid of the plug. Unless you set up wireless charging (which still seems like a lot of work for the gain), I don’t see people plugging in (and paying for the plug-in premium) for a measly 12 miles of electric driving, and still having to fill the gas tank constantly. Maybe there are enough very low mile commuters out there to support this, but why not just get a BEV then? I see this more as a PiP-fighter, and driving Toyota’s price/profit/market share down. This also distinguishes the Volt from other Hybrids with small batteries, even the ones with plugs.
+3
Nov 30th, 2011 (2:30 pm)HE’S ALIVE!!!
How the heck are you? Gr8 to see ya back!
RECHARGE! ,
James
Nov 30th, 2011 (2:31 pm)2 recent patents looks interesting. One is a DCT coupled with an electric motor and other is a hybrid power train.
http://www.google.com/patents?id=lfr3AQAAEBAJ&zoom=4&dq=%22GM%20global%20technology%22&pg=PA1#v=onepage&q=%22GM%20global%20technology%22&f=false
http://www.google.com/patents?id=-UH5AQAAEBAJ&zoom=4&dq=%22GM%20global%20technology%22&pg=PA2#v=onepage&q=%22GM%20global%20technology%22&f=false
+4
Nov 30th, 2011 (2:34 pm)All unknowns of performance aside, the only way the PHEV Cruze makes sense to me is on a cost basis. At the Prius end of the market, performance matters less than price. Of course, if GM can deliver better-than-PiP performance at significantly lower cost, so much the better.
It is a mistake to think of the PHEV Cruze as a watered-down Volt (aside from the base platform, there would be nothing in common between the two). You have to think of the Plug-in Cruze as an American PiP. Why re-invent Toyota’s (plug-in) wheel, unless there are synergies (
) with other GM objectives? Maybe PHEV can find itself into more vehicles more quickly than Voltec in the near term; but if so, this overall objective won’t be met unless the PHEV Cruze can strongly distance itself from PHEV HSD right from the start (and without Voltec’s advantages). This means beating the tar out of the pre-rebate $30K target, not just barely slipping under it.
Make the PHEV Cruze cost less than $28K, or don’t make it at all.
JMO
Nov 30th, 2011 (2:35 pm)#48 john1701a Seating and above-the-false-floor cargo storage were not affected at all.
Does that mean that the PIP has lost its spare tire? I really don’t like the idea of not having a spare tire. Unless any car I buy has run-flat tires or a spare I may not buy it. I really don’t want my wife to get stranded somewhere remote from a blown tire JMHO. I was hoping that the PIP would have gotten at least 20 miles of AER, despite being a parallel hybrid.
+4
Nov 30th, 2011 (2:48 pm)“High Fives” to all the old (ir)regulars. I couldn’t pass up the chance to comment on Lyle’s reappearance. I’m actually around most of the time, but until today I’d had a new Guinness Record going for consecutive opportunities in which a shrink could comment – and hadn’t. Now I gotta start all over again (huge sigh)(g).
Be well,
Tag
Nov 30th, 2011 (2:57 pm)John,
Do you have a link that states that 55 MPG was all the C would do. I was thinking more like 60MPG
Nov 30th, 2011 (3:06 pm)Hate to be a stickler for numbers, but eco Cruze has a 10% aero advantage over standard Cruze, according to GM. Eco Cruze’s Cd is .298.
Prius Cd: Gen 2 – .26 ; Gen 3 – .25
Volt Cd: .281
Honda Insight Cd: Gen I – .25 ; Gen 2 – .28
GM EV-1: .195
I think Total Aerodynamic Drag is Cd X Total Frontal Area. Cruze, no matter the model, has a much larger frontal area than Prius and all other cars shown above. GM and Ford use grille shutters to increase airflow ( lowered Cruze eco 0.4 in. ), but these are aero Band-Aids attempting to compensate for a large ICE cooling grillework.
Toyota opted for a more efficient Atkinson Cycle, aluminum engine. Cruze goes with an iron block 1.4 Ecotec 4 cyl. that doesn’t currently use the Atkinson Cycle timing method. The two mode system not only costs more but is heavier, and I think this surprised GM, as I’ve stated, in it’s discoveries with the SRX PHEV and it’s less than stellar efficiency results. I think three modes, or an improved two mode system, as GM has inclined to report is in testing, may make a big difference. There is no doubt Cruze handles and drives better, but a PHEV version is a completely different animal – weight distribution; power, etc..
Heavier and more complex = not as good. I still believe GM will have to compete with PIP on cost – not total performance*.
RECHARGE! ,
James
*regarding current Cruze platform
I tried finding the actual weight of the Chevy Cruze; ecoCruze. PIP states 3165 lbs., the best I could gather for Cruze was “3,375 weight class”, and 200lb. of weight reduction ( 40 areas ) for ecoCruze. Add battery and….? Truly finding the true weight of the Cruze was like trying to find super secret information!
+1
Nov 30th, 2011 (3:20 pm)Tagamet,
Great to see you here Tag! It’s a little like a family reunion here today. First Lyle, now you. Hope you are “being well”.
Nov 30th, 2011 (3:31 pm)You realize those are Toyota’s numbers, which are historically lower than those tested by 3rd parties.
The 2010 Prius was tested at 0.30
+1
Nov 30th, 2011 (3:39 pm)I think you and I have seen such numbers all over the map. Motor Trend published numbers of their own with gen III Prius at .26… etc., but they’re pretty close. Also, people do the frontal area math differently.
All-in-all, it’s common sense. Look at the two. Which one do you think slips cleaner through the air? One is high and bulky, the other low and angled. Basic Prii come with 15″ wheels, lowering drag even farther. Place your hand at the angle of the Cruze’s grill and headlight area, then tilt your hand to Prius’ grille and hood angle in front of a leaf blower. You’ll quickly see how powerful drag is! The sheer height of the hood will also tell you lots.One very interesting thing I’ve noticed re: major manufacturers trying to achieve aero without losing the large identifier grille people expect is top view. Look, for instance, at the top view of the 2013 Malibu and see how drastically the headlights angle backward from the grille. It helps, but gosh-just drop the big grille already!
I’m not slamming Cruze. It’s not a bad effort for the new GM. I’m also not lauding Prius, even though I own one, I know it’s numerous shortcomings. What I am pointing out is using a current ICE model to covert to a hybrid or PHEV vs. a clean-sheet design like Prius or Volt.
I just reread the multitudinous things GM did to reduce the weight and drag of ecoCruze over Cruze. It was truly impressive. Some highlights: Removed rear center armrest; Removed rear center headrest in manual transmission models; reduced gas tank size by 3 gallons; replaced many body panels with thinner, lighter weight ones; lowered car 0.4 in.; reworked transmission ratios; equipped with featherweight alloy wheels; gave it high mileage tires; fitted with grille shutters and full underbody panels…
Doesn’t this just prove my point? Why tear apart a current heavy, non-aero model and try to make it fit? Why not expend the same energy into a unique car designed initially to be prudent with a gallon of gas?
VOLT, MORE DRIVE – LESS FILLING! ,
James
Nov 30th, 2011 (3:48 pm)#50 James
It’s inconclusive and without details.
None of this says (from the article) anything about the performance – but rather the range. What size was it? What size electric motor was used? We don’t know any details. I presume they tried to make the Caddy a “big prius” with small Li-Ion battery set and some form of hybridization. People on this board like Pete F. probably know, but can’t share details. I have to imagine if we were to find out the specs (vehicle weight, engine and motor sizes used, battery system used and so on) we could speculate with actual facts. Could be a skunkworks that just didn’t pan out.
>>
Following the untimely news that the development of the upcoming Cadillac SRX plug-in hybrid was brought to a halt entirely, questions began rising almost immediately as to why the project was canned. As it turns out, a recent report has revealed that the program’s engineers and managers were not satisfied with the results coming from the vehicle’s lithium-ion battery pack.
Apparently, the all-electric range couldn’t even touch the minimum target of ten miles. That being the case, the decision to cancel the project in its entirety seems to make perfect sense. Additionally, The General’s engineers are currently developing a replacement to the stillborn two-mode hybrid system — one that will utilize several cues from the Chevy Volt — but we probably won’t see it until the middle of the decade in 2015.
<<
Nov 30th, 2011 (3:53 pm)Range is the predominant performance measurement in a PHEV, EREV , BEV , no? It’s the reason for it’s existence.
After all, you’re paying a certain premium for this capability, otherwise no need to pay extra if it’s mileage and range isn’t much superior to ordinary models.
RECHARGE! ,
James
Nov 30th, 2011 (4:03 pm)Just wondering if anyone has any idea how the Ford Focus hybrid and Plug-in hybrid will be configured for comparison? BTW, Tagamet you’re definitely missed around here.
Nov 30th, 2011 (4:20 pm)I agree totally, +1.
VOLT, MORE DRIVE – LESS FILLING! ,
James
Nov 30th, 2011 (4:29 pm)Isn’t that what GM is trying to do with 2 mode? Re-invent the PHEV wheel? Ford and Nissan just licensed HSD and then copied it. Perhaps that isn’t such a bad plan….compared to GM’s current approach???
RECHARGE! ,
James
Nov 30th, 2011 (4:30 pm)Well, when it comes to cars, rarely do you ask a Corvette owner “how does it perform” and they tell you how far they go on a tank of gas. When you ask someone “how did your son do in his performance last night on the play?” and someone answers “two hours”.
I don’t equate performance to miles of AER. But you are right, the value of AER in a hybrid equates to “level of mileage performance of AER”.
I looked up peformance and it said:
“The accomplishment of a given task measured against preset known standards of accuracy, completeness, cost, and speed. In a contract, performance is deemed to be the fulfillment of an obligation, in a manner that releases the performer from all liabilities under the contract.”
In terms of engineering, doing math on the whiteboard could have come up with the AER potential of the Caddy SRX given inputs of weight, electric motor size and so on. Were they “surprised” when they got 10 miles out of the system? Were they just messing around or did they simply undersize components? We’ll probably never know.
+2
Nov 30th, 2011 (4:40 pm)=====================================
Tag!!!
I just wanted you to know that my painful bout of VES was finally cured on 10-04-2011.
That was the date that the 2012 Volt # C-5277 officially came into my possession!
But now I have contracted VOS (Volt Owners Syndrome), which is the crazy attempt to keep the gasoline consumption to a minimum. I must sadly admit that I am no where near what some of the other owners have achieved. I have almost 1100 miles and have used about 10 gallons of gasoline. So even thought I am running well over 100 mpg for a lifetime average, I am working to get it to at least 150 mpg.
Do I need time on the couch, or is knowing that I have this affliction enough to get me through???
Seriously, it is good to see you posting.
Nov 30th, 2011 (4:44 pm)See Kdawgs comments. For me, seems like a good idea in the Cruze list of gas saving configurations and drive trains. Doesn’t seem to offer more performance gains or push the envelope beyond the Prius plug in. And I wouldn’t want a vehicle that could not complete my ordinary daily driving in Southern California with no gas. But at the expected price it could be a nice addition.
Bottom line, as one who mocked, it’s a nice addition but it certainly won’t meet my goals because I don’t want a drive train that assists the gas engine, but one that drives the car instead of using the gas engine.
Hello Lyle and Tag
+2
Nov 30th, 2011 (4:52 pm)Double ditto, Tag! …and we really need a shrink to deal with the crazies here, myself included!
Nov 30th, 2011 (5:17 pm)I don’t know about all of this. It was fun to discuss it though and to see a lot of “the old ones” again.
I think IMO that GM trying to do a Pip competitor w/ the 2 mode Eco Cruze is probably a bad idea from a marketing POV to try to compete w/ the Pip….unless as Jackson says they can do it way cheaper.
Maybe it would be better to do a Eco Cruze++ with just the e assist in it. This would bump in town mileage up and keep cost down.
James, good points on the Cd’s. Prius probably does have a slight edge but kdawg’s points are well taken also as it becomes a numbers game.
This has been a good discussion.
Nov 30th, 2011 (5:26 pm)2014 Cruze Phev is good.
Provided
1) A no-plug hybrid version should give CS mode it should give 60-70 mpg ( reason: Cruze is global and there is not plug availability in lot places it sell and gas is expensive )
2) The non-plug hybrid version should not exceed 23k price ( this is as of now – 2 years after, it depends on competitor pricing )
3) City Mileage should be better than or equal to high way mileage ( again global product , 70% of world lives in cities and highways and not that great in all world )
4) The Hybrid should be reliable – no too much parts, it should be simple and maintainable.
5) Battery replacement cost should not exceed $1000 and battery should have warranty for 8 years.
+6
Nov 30th, 2011 (6:20 pm)Thanks for all the very kind thoughts/words. It seems a little less acrimonious without me always stirring the pot though. Most of my fol der ol was OT (read political) stuff anyway.
Just yesterday I removed the magnetic “My next car will be electric” sticker from the Jeep – only because it’s all gnarled and in danger of falling off. My next car WILL still be electric (in some way, shape or form).
Be well all, and just remember “Tagamet is still watching” (g).
Tag
+1
Nov 30th, 2011 (6:21 pm)That is the theory – but after tax credit prices won’t be very different between a large AER PHEV (like Volt) and a small AER PHEV (like PIP).
The way tax credit is structured, ensures this. Essentially the marginal cost of an extra kWh is almost zero, after credit.
Ofcourse, more the merrier, so another PHEV is welcome.
+2
Nov 30th, 2011 (6:25 pm)Don’t have time to elaborate now – and I don’t want to trump any of Jeff’s stories – but some new information is trickling out re: the Ford C-Max Energi. The Energi is considered a “Volt fighter” and is the only PHEV I am aware of that’s in Ford’s near future. Supposedly out mid 2012 as a 2013 model, Ford has kept details and specs tight to the vest in a near opposite strategy as GM displayed in the development of the Volt. I do see C-Max ( there will be hybrid and PHEV versions ) as a quick-to-market answer to Volt should Volt sell well. C-Max Energi does have a bit more practicality to it’s seating, but to me, it looks like a fat Focus – like you blew air into a Focus and it expanded outward and upward a bit.
There’s tons of interesting tidbits about C-Max Energi and much to talk about – it uses a “blended” hybrid technology much like PIP ( is that any surprise? ) but adds an all electric mode for 40 mph and under. They also claim huge distance numbers – I’ve read anywhere from 20-40 miles AER,500-750 miles range on a tank of gas (!)using a 10kwh lithium battery pack. We’ll have to see when it’s closer to reveal time.
Ford has indicated it has other plans up it’s sleeve including PHEV Fusion and no PHEV Focus as of yet. These are spoken of as “after 2014-2015″. Nothing is really known about them as of yet besides where the battery packs will be made and assembled.
RECHARGE! ,
James
Nov 30th, 2011 (6:45 pm)#52
Great to see you here pal. Don’t be a stranger. +1
Nov 30th, 2011 (6:51 pm)#72
Boy ain’t it the truth, LOL? +1
+2
Nov 30th, 2011 (6:54 pm)As much as I hate CARB as being a ‘job-killing-over-regulation-can’t-fire-the-people-who-run-it” organization, whatever GM builds in the future needs to pass with these clowns to get one of the HOV lane stickers here in California. That goes for a Plug-In-Cruze, the next gen VOLT, or any other car GM plan to build.
I could sell a horse and buggy on a daily basis if it qualified for one of them dang stickers!
+3
Nov 30th, 2011 (6:55 pm)#77
No way! Quite the opposite IMHO. I always thought that you provided a valuable sense of reason and balance. Take care my friend.
+1
Nov 30th, 2011 (6:57 pm)#78
The bottom line IMHO. +1 Every time I see a Porsche Panamera running around I’m reminded that I have ZERO insight into what the American public will or won’t buy, LOL. The first time I ever saw one, let alone the window sticker, I confidently predicted that NO ONE would ever buy one. So far in my little corner of SoCal they outnumber Volts, hahah. Go figure.
+1
Nov 30th, 2011 (7:04 pm)#82
Just like gold on the old 91, right?
+4
Nov 30th, 2011 (7:22 pm)LOL, when compared to someone on the left coast, I could see that…. I did feel a little like I lost my yin to his Yang when Statik split. It’s actually darn impressive to so how persistent the core group has hung in there. Who knows, maybe Lyle will have another NYC reunion some day. Maybe once the administration in DC changes….(heehee)
Be well and g’nite,
Tag
Nov 30th, 2011 (7:35 pm)With the transmission like no other, IOW:extra clutch, it probably will, in economy and performance.
Nov 30th, 2011 (8:10 pm)You are right about the blended aspect. But not under 40 mph. Ford has said it will be higher than the 47 mph of the Focus Hybrid. My expectation is that it can run in EV mode nearly to 60 mph (probably able to do City cycle of EPA in EV mode ?) if not pushed hard. You can see more details in my c-max energi blog – not sure whether I can link it here.
The following is a direct quote from Ford.
Nov 30th, 2011 (8:52 pm)Sorry, but I trust hard data over common sense. People who use common sense regarding aerodynamics drive with their tailgates down even though it actually increases drag.
Ford, Chrysler, and GM all tested the Prius in their wind tunnels and confirmed the 30Cd rating.
Regarding the PHEV Cruze, I think its a mistake to use the current Cruze for comparison sake. You are talking about a car that is 3 (or more) years away, and one that GM won’t even say it’s making. I seriously doubt the design will be today’s Cruze with a battery stuck in it. For now, everything is speculation, and the future car may only the name in common.
+1
Nov 30th, 2011 (9:56 pm)Yes, that IS what GM seems to be trying to do. What I’m saying is that if they are counting on a PHEV Cruze to kick the whole thing off, it may be seen as a doomed me-too Prius-clone unless they can make it more attractive somehow (probably on a cost basis, as I said).
I’d hate to see a project like this blow up in GM’s faces.
Nov 30th, 2011 (11:21 pm)Tag, my Saturn VUE still prominently displays the same Volt-inspired magnetic sticker that Lyle designed saying “My next car will be electric” on its rear lift gate —sorry yours got gnarly & loose. Florida’s better road & weather conditions must have given me the advantage.
And regarding “feeling a little like I lost my Yin to his Yang when Statik split”, Statik is actually still posting here fairly regularly & I bet he misses your one-of-a-kind comments too!
PS: I want to echo several others here who’ve said, “don’t be a stranger”. WE NEED A SHRINK, OK!?
Dec 1st, 2011 (12:38 am)You are correct – sir. Sorry for the lazy fact-finding. Today’s topic was very interesting to me- like Lyle, I’ve been following the Cruze PHEV and SRX PHEV for quite some time. Every time I tried to get work done or stray from my PC – I’d read something and go…”oh…oh…OH!”… lol
I finally peeled myself away and actually got some things done. Read BG’s question and was digging quickly for info on C-Max and I believe the press release I chose was from the Spring… It said “70 kp h”, which I converted to 43.4 something something mph. . Ford has not told us much, and your info sounds more recent.
I am saving for my Volt, but as a family guy, if C-Max shows me something, I may look that way what with it’s three-across seating and more cargo sq. ft.. Not fond of it’s looks at all though – and Volt is such a fascinating and remarkably good performing rig – plus good looks. I have read Ford keeps saying the C-Max PHEV will be a very limited number production – perhaps a tiered, slow rollout like Volt was. When Ford officially announced the price of the Focus EV, I nearly fell off my chair. If C-Max Energi follows suit – they could price the thing out of my league.
I’m searching for your blog. I want to know as much as possible – like what’s this “Brake Training Software” I’ve read about – to teach you how to drive C-Max most efficiently?… And will it have the auto tailgate footswitch?
Aint that the truth? I personally never thought a tailgateless truck got better mileage, the air bubble in the bed is a revelation to many. The tonneau cover does beat the aero cd of an open bed with tailgate closed though.I’d read about it years back, but the MythBusters truck test was cool – to actually see how much more range they got with the closed tailgate! I’m still totally intrigued by the golfball dimpled surface test…That one has me wanting to try a 1st gen Honda Insight EV project with lithium batts and aero mods – including dimples! So what if everyone on the road thinks I’m a major geek/tool! LOL
RECHARGE! .
James
Dec 1st, 2011 (1:29 am)Same here. My wife wants a tall car …
BTW, my energi blog is in my forum signature.
The white zombie guys are converting Insight – with a range of 386 miles @ 65mph!
http://www.plasmaboyracing.com/blog/?p=486
+1
Dec 1st, 2011 (9:19 am)I happy reading Lyle’s post!!!
+1
Dec 1st, 2011 (11:06 am)I also spoke out against this design but for different reasons. I think 10-20 mile plug-ins can add value from the consumer’s perspective. There are many, many people (perhaps even the majority) with commutes in this range but most probably need more from time to time. A BEV will work for some but won’t for a lot either because of actual range needs or anti-BEV fervor. BUT, I don’t think most of these customers prefer an econobox. That is my issue with GM’s approach. They should be considering solutions that have more appeal than just cheapest and smallest.