There are several pieces of information about the Chevy Volt that have been accepted as immutable fact since early on in the car’s transparent developmental process. One of those has to do with the amount of usable energy that will be drawn from the battery to drive the car.
We have always been told the Volt would use 8 kwh to drive 40 miles, and thus about 50% of the battery’s total capacity, operating within the roughly 30 to 80 percent state of charge band. This number also indicated the vehicle’s efficiency is roughly 5 miles per kwh
At the Consumer Advisory Board information conference, Volt vehicle line director Tony Posawatz issued an addendum of sorts. The Volt will use “a little bit more” than 8 kwh. He would not be specific about how much more, instead assuring us we “will found out” when we start driving the car.
Britta Gross who is GM’s director of infrastructure indicated how much electricity consumers should expect to draw from the grid in order to fully recharge a depleted battery. “Assume an upper bound of 10kWh needed to fully charge the battery (from empty),” said said. This would include grid energy also used to condition the battery.
The Volt will issue monthly statements describing how much energy the car has consumed which will be sent to email via OnStar and be accessible on myvolt.com.
Over time as the battery degrades the car’s electric range will gradually decline. The pack should reach about 70 to 75% of capacity after 8 years/100,000 miles. The car will gradually increase the usable state of charge band, however, to continue enabling the 25 to 50 miles of electric range.
The car can continue to be driven long beyond that 8 year/100,000 mile point, and in secondary applications the battery could be used for an equal number of years. Eventually consumers will see electric range degrade, though the generator will always be there to allow normal usage.
If you’re feeling a little adventurous you can also discuss this post in our new and improved GM-Volt Forum.
This entry was posted on Friday, October 8th, 2010 at 6:55 am and is filed under Battery, Efficiency, Engineering. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed. Both comments and pings are currently closed.
+17
Oct 8th, 2010 (7:05 am)I have seen releases that seemed to indicate that the Volt used 8.8 kWh to achieve its all electric range. With conversion loss, would it take 10 kWh to put 8.8 kWh into the battery? That seems a bit excessive, though a 10% conversion loss means the amount of electricity needed would be around 9.75 kWh, which is pretty close to an ‘upper bound of 10 kWh…’ Plus grid conditioning, sounds about what was expected, but GM could have been clearer earlier, there are a ton of haters looking for a reason to slam the Volt. Case in point, GM says up to 40 miles AER for years. Last week they say the range will be 25 to 50 miles depending on how you drive it. Obviously good news that the AER can easily exceed 40 miles, but a lot of the responses were, ‘It only gets 25 miles’, without prefacing that with, ‘if you rod the heck out of it with the AC on full blast.’
GM should under promise and over deliver. I think their engineers have done just that, but the MBA’s in marketing and the bozo’s that decided to include the delivery fee in the MSRP, thereby driving it up over $40,000, are failing miserably.
Heck, even Wiki says the Volt uses 8.8 kWh, but watch the trolls pitch this as a fail.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chevrolet_Volt
+12
Oct 8th, 2010 (7:06 am)…”assuring us we “will found out” when we start driving the car.”
Are you kidding me???
These are the statements that drive me crazy!!!
If they have info, release it so we can make informed decisions!!!!!!!!!!!
The trolls are going to have a field day with this thread.
NPNS
Oct 8th, 2010 (7:14 am)I think he meant the CAB “will find out”, which means we will find out before the official launch of the car.
+14
Oct 8th, 2010 (7:17 am)I have long suspected that the 50% usage was just a target, and the actual would turn out to be a little more. And using more of the battery’s potential as it ages just makes good sense, so the 40 mile AER remains constant during the life of the car.
I am glad this has been clarified, and is just as expected.
Join thE REVolution!
-39
Oct 8th, 2010 (7:28 am)(click to show comment)
+11
Oct 8th, 2010 (7:35 am)Look on the bright side fellas, the Volt will be adjusting the useable range over time, so you will likely be able to achieve 40 miles in CD mode for the first 8 years. Then, you can either accept the performance loss, purchase a new battery or purchase a new Volt.
-5
Oct 8th, 2010 (7:45 am)The narrower charge band is used to protect the battery from degradation. However, if the charge band is increased over time to maintain range, the degradation rate is also likely to increase.
So, an older Volt’s useful battery capacity will be degrading faster with each passing year. It seems to me that this seriously threatens the overall useful life of the battery.
-4
Oct 8th, 2010 (7:56 am)I don’t see how. It’s going to be difficult to get an accurate figure based on charging, due to losses and conditioining. It will be interesting to see the total power consumed, which is more useful for determining cost than the nominal capacity of the battery.
+10
Oct 8th, 2010 (7:59 am)They will use whatever is needed to get promised range. They promised the range, not how much of the battery they use. If they have to deal with the consequences in 8 years, then so be it.
In eight years 16 kWh battery packs will cost about a grand. Watch the drop.
-4
Oct 8th, 2010 (8:06 am)There’s a lot of competition in the AA battery space and tens of millions of units are sold per year and we’ve never seen that kind of price drop.
Battery packs that size will cost a grand only if there’s a very significant breakthrough in chemistry. Everything that’s on the horizon at this point, is an incremental improvement, which doesn’t bode well for the $62.50/KWH battery.
Oct 8th, 2010 (8:14 am)I dont like this too much, after 8 years the Volt will increase the SOC trying to maintain 40 miles of range, but this will accelerate wear on the battery.. I would prefer lower the 40 mile range and make the battery last another 7 years. After 15 years its reasonable that the car will need major repairs.
“Over time as the battery degrades the car’s electric range will gradually decline. The pack should reach about 70 to 75% of capacity after 8 years/100,000 miles. The car will gradually increase the usable state of charge band, however, to continue enabling the 25 to 50 miles of electric range.”
+6
Oct 8th, 2010 (8:19 am)Agreed that to get prices below $1000 for 16KWH battery you would need chemistry breakthrough.
Don’t agree in comparing a 16kwh battery that has never been mass produced to a a 2 inch battery that have been produced in the BILLIONS of units.
In 8 years even without any breakthrough in chemistries, these large EV batteries will be reduced in price at least 30% just with engineering, and production improvements. That combined with the eventual rising of oil prices is a lock to make BEVs / EREVs cost competitive if not a better deal than ICE cars by the end of the decade. ICE cars are also getting a lot of expensive technology to improve MPG, but you can’t beat infinity MPG.
+6
Oct 8th, 2010 (8:25 am)Did you see the quote LG gave Renault for $1.8 billion worth of batteries?.. about $3k per 20kwh pack
-5
Oct 8th, 2010 (8:28 am)You’re still talking about a part that will still cost $5K in ten years. Do you put an engine and a transmission into a ten year old car?
Oct 8th, 2010 (8:29 am)No. Where can I read about that?
+19
Oct 8th, 2010 (8:31 am)I can’t speak for Texas, but he may have been engaging in a bit of hyperbole. By the time the Volt’s packs start to degrade to less than acceptable AER’s, the price of battery packs will probably drop nearly as spectacularly as computer chips. Not quite, due to the greater amount or material required for a pack over a chip, but nearly so. So pack prices have dropped from $1000 per kWh to just over $600 for the Volt and possible down to $450 for the Leaf’s un-conditioned pack. By 2019 the pack prices could be as low as $200 per kWh, but more likey somewhere closer to $300. But with prices down and reliability up, you will only want around 12 kWh, so the numbers will look like $200 * 12 or $300 * 12, for a pack price of $2400 or $3600. Not bad to get another 8 years of near luxury automobile, especially in a world of $4 a gallon gasoline, or worse.
In fact, if the price of batteries drops to $200 per kWh, it might finally make financial sense to build a fast charging 48 kWh, or more, BEV with real world range that is acceptable to most American drivers. At that point BEV’s may start to outsell EREV’s by a serious amount. But until then, the more competition for the Volt and the Leaf the merrier for all of us.
I find it hard to imagine just how many shoes will drop when the US starts reducing the $960,000,000 we send overseas for oil every day. Hugo, Putin, the house of Saud can all suck wind, one day we will probably be able to get the vast majority of our oil from our friends north of the border. Canada is nearly the only major oil exporting country that is a true friend.
+2
Oct 8th, 2010 (8:34 am)Toms analysis predicted 40 miles AER on 8 kwh OUT OF THE BATTERY. It was also for the bare HWY cycle without any adjustment for higher speeds and auxiliary loads like A/C. The adjustment for the higher speeds and acc loads is worth about 15% so that puts this number in context. It validates his modeling.
I think we will see the 50 MPG in CS mode needing the same adjustment. So 42.5 sounds about right for the EPA CS Mode rating.
+1
Oct 8th, 2010 (8:34 am)The number, as I have pointed out before is about 8.5 Kwh. The bottom is 30% and the top is 85%. (16 x .85 = 13.6) minus (16 x .30 = 4.8) equals 8.8 depletion mode capacity.
+21
Oct 8th, 2010 (8:36 am)The operating parameters of the Volt were not delivered by Moses on stone tablets. Neither was the price. Let the addendums fly. Who cares.
The Volt is doing its job: it is making the phones ring and bringing people into their local Chevy showrooms. (at least in the launch areas)
I am hoping the ad campaign for the Volt has a little more energy than the current Cruze ads. Tim Allen is great. But the commercials are just a little too soft spoken for my taste. Very slow pace. Most of all, I just wish they would get the Volt ads started!
Oct 8th, 2010 (8:38 am)Irritating, I can’t edit that comment to state that we can get the vast majority of our ‘imported’ oil from Canada. Obviously our own 8,000,000 barrels a day of production is no drop in the bucket.
+4
Oct 8th, 2010 (8:46 am)Shameless self-promotion link:
http://nissan-leaf.net/2010/10/05/renault-lg-chem/#comments
Oct 8th, 2010 (8:52 am)Just can’t wait until battery prices make changing an EV battery about as traumatic as changing a cell phone battery today.
Oct 8th, 2010 (8:59 am)That is not correct, ziv. I have been looking at this link for some time now:
http://www.chevrolet.com/pages/open/default/future/volt.do
When you click on “Performance and Efficiency(7), a collage of seven pictures appears. Hovering over the LCD image of the left, pops up a window asking, “Will I always get 40 miles on electric charge?” Clicking on that image, gives the answer to the question. Other people may have stated only 40 miles AER but as far as I remember GM has always indicated that the 40 figure was what the engineers targeted and is just an average depending on driving conditions.
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
+3
Oct 8th, 2010 (9:00 am)This is nice information but it is really a non-story.
All cars that I know about and have driven degrade over time. As use/miles adds up there will come a time when the car needs to be replaced. That is why the car companies are still in business.
Of course one can prolong the use of a particular car by replacing parts. So I do not see anything different in replacing brakes, tires…. and batteries. The hope is technology updates and innovation will make battery replacement less expensive and more productive over time.
But I suspect most of us will just buy a new “electric” car because of innovation and tech updates in all the parts… plus…. new cars are always very cool. ;+]
Oct 8th, 2010 (9:03 am)I love how they promote the Cruze on the new Hawaii Five-O…!!!!!!
That is high energy!
Oct 8th, 2010 (9:11 am)There is a HUGE retail mark-up on AA’s and similar types of batteries. The manufactures are making a killing on them while having an “old boys club” with the vendors that sees no reason to rock the boat. Retail batteries are an odd exception to the competitive nature of the technology front.
P.S. Before Charlie H starts in on how I’m wrong, a work related friend of mine works for Duracell and laughs his head off whenever I ask how much each cell costs to manufacture…
-1
Oct 8th, 2010 (9:16 am)What I like is that we’re being given a little dose of reality of the operational extremes within the Volt performance range.
The worst conditions we know about are -30F in Canada and 110F Arizona (or whatever it was). Can we get the same performance results at these conditions from any other manufacturer please?
No EPA range numbers but real performance results.
I’ve always assumed that the car would need 10kw to charge the car but feared more since the battery will draw power for conditioning from November to Spring. 10 kw max after conditioning is actually pretty good. I’ve also been hoping that the Volt would draw a little more than 8 kw for normal operations to make the most of an excellent regen system. A heavier car has the ability to recover more energy, aiding in improving CS economy more so than a non plugin hybrid would.
Here’s my guess for what the team has done for fuel economy.
The 50% EV use stays intact. The extra draw is used to supplement CS fuel economy for another 300 miles. Software calculations are critical here. The battery will not be fully utilized until the Volt reaches 300 miles of total driving. Perhaps an algorithm will be used to monitor driving habits to maintain CS fuel economy for whatever way the Volt is driven.
I’m also assuming that the EPA testing uses a battery drained to minimum reserve. Thus a CS rating from the EPA in the mid 30′s but real world driving from the team of near 50 mpg.
Oct 8th, 2010 (9:17 am)LRGProvolt, I think we are agreeing but I may not have made my statement clear. GM has stated that drivers will get UP TO 40 miles AER. Not that they will always get that range, so when GM came out and said that drivers will get 25 to 50 miles AER depending on how they drive, it was a huge win for GM. Yet some have stated that it was a failure due to the acknowledgement that if you flog the car your range will be less than 40.
“Up to 40″ doesn’t mean you will always get the 40 miles and I didn’t intend for it to sound like I thought GM had implied that. Sorry for being less than clear in my post.
+1
Oct 8th, 2010 (9:17 am)=================================
I don’t interpret. I am a very literal person, so I replied on what was said.
I don’t know about the rest of you, but the approach of “Go buy our car for $41K+ and then find out how it works” is more than a bit irritating to me………..
Tell us what the CS mileage is, and now we need to know what percentage of the battery pack is being used in CD mode, both when it is new and at the end of the warranty period.
Is GM TRYING to kill enthusiasm for this car, or have they not yet learned to engage their brains before putting their mouths in gear????????????????
JMHO
+2
Oct 8th, 2010 (9:21 am)ICE cars degrade over time as well. A 10 year old car will not likely get the same mpgs as a newish car (after a break in period to loosen up the mechanicals) due to wear and tear and things getting generally gummed up over time. You just don’t notice it because the range per tank is still hundreds of miles and you can fill up anywhere within minutes if you’re running a bit low on the way home. ICE mpgs are affected by driving style, temperature, and time. Just like an EV. The only difference is, the infrastructure for quick charging isn’t in place yet to save you if you hot foot it to work one morning, and can’t get home.
If you were to track your mpgs over time for 10 years, you would see more degredation over time and seasonal fluctuation than you think. There’s no reason EVs should get a bad rep for something the car sitting in your driveway does anyway, if you actially took the time to keep track.
When EVs get to the point where they have hundreds of miles of range per charge, can quick charge from 0-80% in 15 mins, with a plentiful number of chargers around, few people will care anymore. They’ll just drive their cars much like they do today.
Until then, relax, accept the limitations, or buy something else until the tech gets more mature.
-28
Oct 8th, 2010 (9:25 am)(click to show comment)
Oct 8th, 2010 (9:26 am)You must live in LA (and not Portland), huh.
Until future ambient battery tech matches the performance of the current Volt battery, a lot of EV’s will be the fair weather friends that work within a Better Place type system.
+1
Oct 8th, 2010 (9:28 am)ok guys, I want to divert this thread just a nano-wire.
What happens in year 6, when I decide that I can afford to buy a new battery pack…and I want to integrate the T battery I have, into my house, so that I can use my old Volt battery to store cheap electrons bought from the grid (or generated by my rooftop solar panels) and then charge my volt with it’s new T battery?
Effective? Possible? Let me hear you.
The reason it’s relevant is simple–battery life is relative to what you use it for. A T battery that loses 10 percent effectiveness might matter in my car…but might be just fine for another ten years as a home storage device. Why should the utility get my used battery to use this way…why can’t I?
+4
Oct 8th, 2010 (9:38 am)As cars get older they are driven less. I don’t know the exact numbers off-hand but the miles at 10K are something around 5k I think, and at 15 years the miles are down to virtually zero. Given this the GM approach seems to be the right one. If a 12 year old Volt is being driven 5 miles a day, then the pack won’t be stressed any more or less if the EV range is 30 miles or 20 miles. The stress will be set by the actual miles.
Shameless maybe but very good and on point!
-2
Oct 8th, 2010 (9:40 am)So GM won’t tell us how much gas OR how much electricity the volt will hold/use……oh boy.
/how many times did I get slammed for bringing up the ‘more than 8 kwh’ question in the past?
-30
Oct 8th, 2010 (9:46 am)(click to show comment)
+3
Oct 8th, 2010 (9:47 am)I think Carcus has been saying for quite a while that the battery will use 8.8 kWh. I’ve been dismissing this. Ha ha!
Not that big of a deal though. As CorvetteGuy says, these parameters weren’t written on stone tablets. If testing and experience suggests a change then obviously that should be implemented.
+1
Oct 8th, 2010 (9:50 am)“The Volt will issue monthly statements describing how much energy the car has consumed which will be sent to email via OnStar and be accessible on myvolt.com.”
I imagine that GM will gather every piece of information on how the battery is performing through those reports via OnStar. They will know how much electricity is takes to charge the battery to a level of say 8.8Kwh, what the degradation of the battery is over time, and other factors. This will all be good for the owner and GM.
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
+2
Oct 8th, 2010 (9:50 am)No, the team will tell us ahead of GM and the EPA. Which group would you rather get your info from?
From these people we will find out just how much of a competent car the Volt will be. I’m still amazed that the car will be produced at all. A hybrid 4 seater compact with a Chevy badge that sells for $40k. Only Bob Lutz (and an absolutely fantastic engineering team) could have gotten that proposal into production.
+1
Oct 8th, 2010 (9:51 am)It would seem that one could be proactive later in life and engage mountain mode to prevent the battery from discharging too deeply (even if GM’s software is trying to do so).
…and moving beyond this. I keep stating this but a few aren’t getting it. We can ORDINARLY (or on average or commonly, pick a term) will use approximately 5 kwh in our daily driving of the AVERAGE electric vehicle- be it Volt, Leaf or whatever. Some keep saying the Leaf requires the 220v charger and the Volt does not. Don’t fall for this. The time of recharge and the charger you use have EVERYTHING to do with how far you drove since the last time you charged- and only a small amount to do with which vehicle you drove.
…and back to herm with original comment. If the average driver continues to do the average driving and recharges nightly, the software may not even very often have the chance to tell the battery to more deeply discharge. Therefore, your concerns of accelerated battery breakdown may not materialize anyway.
+1
Oct 8th, 2010 (9:51 am)Then just use “mountain mode” to get the ICE to turn on sooner, effectively decreasing your depth-of-discharge.
+10
Oct 8th, 2010 (9:53 am)Once again, as specific details emerge on the VOLT’s day to day operation over a sustained period of time, it appears that GM engineers have asked many forward thinking questions and have this figured out. No doubt things will crop up, but overall they have engineered the VOLT to deliver on the original promise of 40 miles AER with 300 Extended Range. It’s all good…. let’s get the VOLT on the road!
+2
Oct 8th, 2010 (9:54 am)Slightly OT from Popular Mechanics: Breakthrough Awards 2010, “Here are the products and innovators that truly moved society forward in 2010. Popular Mechanics salutes the following Breakthrough Award winners.”
(There are 10 Breakthrough winners and 9 Innovation winners.)
http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/engineering/news/breakthrough10
Chevrolet Volt:
“Brilliant Idea: A series hybrid that augments a battery pack with an onboard gas engine, easing range anxiety and paving the way for EV adoption.”
http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/engineering/news/breakthrough10
I guess to be fair, I should mention that they also included the Nissan Leaf.
+4
Oct 8th, 2010 (9:57 am)I suppose some enthusiasts will be experimenting with replacing battery packs but the bottom line on this article seems to be that a ~20 year old Volt may still have about as much plugin-in capacity as a brand new 2012 PHEV Prius.
+6
Oct 8th, 2010 (9:58 am)I’m in the opposite camp. I am hoping someone will figure out a way to open up the battery pack to 90% or so from day one. If people can accept that an i-MiEV with a 16kWh battery pack will degrade somewhat over time, why can’t the same rules apply to the Volt?
The Volt has a BEV sized pack, let me use it!!!
+1
Oct 8th, 2010 (10:01 am)==============================
They parameters may not have been written in stone, but no one from GM has said anything to make us doubt the specs we were first given over the last three years. Every interview was “we are on target” and “we have not met any unexpected problems”. Now expectations are being lowered, and with the price where it is (which was already a huge blow to many of us), that is not a good thing, IMHO.
I have to say that with what is being said lately by GM people, I would seriously consider leasing, rather than buying a Gen-1 Volt, because at this time there is not enough info to make a long term decision with this car. And I have never leased a vehicle in my life………..
So I say again – Is GM TRYING to kill enthusiasm for this car, or have they not yet learned to engage their brains before putting their mouths in gear????????????????
-23
Oct 8th, 2010 (10:03 am)(click to show comment)
+1
Oct 8th, 2010 (10:10 am)I like this concept and I can see it working with an extra benefit. You see, when you install rooftop solar, you are forced to decide grid tied OR battery backup- not both. When you are grid tied, your inverter is powered by the grid. When the grid is down, you are down- even with all that juice up there on the roof staring at you. Batteries wear out and can fill up (leaving excess solar energy go to waste). Given the choice, it is crazy to choose battery backup over grid tied.
But, I live in FL (with hurricanes). It irritates me that I am forced to still have that gas generator out there in the garage ‘just in case’. Now, if I have an old Volt battery just lying around, I am sure I can have an electrician rig a bypass to use this battery as backup. While I would have to buy another inverter, I might be able to get rid of the gas generator.
Oct 8th, 2010 (10:11 am)It’s a bummer they need to use more than 8kWh, another bogey missed.
I am glad, however, that they’re being smart about increasing the amount of battery they use as the vehicle ages to maintain EV range.
join thE REVolution
Oct 8th, 2010 (10:12 am)flmark,
I believe you can do grid-tied WITH battery back-up, but those units are more expensive.
join thE REVolution
+13
Oct 8th, 2010 (10:15 am)And the cynics and tolls never thought it would see the light of day, in any form. They were wrong. Way, way wrong.
Relax man, holster the hate. The Volt won’t be perfect. It won’t be for everyone, but it will be a great solution for many. The Leaf and other BEVs may be a better choice for others. The point is still moving our energy consumption away from oil. We can all celebrate that we at least have real choices coming.
+12
Oct 8th, 2010 (10:15 am)And you’ll keep getting negatives when you use this term. What is the old saying about using honey vs vinegar? If you want to COMMUNICATE with people, don’t demean. You are not communicating; you are preaching- and no one is listening.
+1
Oct 8th, 2010 (10:21 am)If you have a link, please post. It wouldn’t be the first time I had to tell my solar contractor something I learned on my own. It wouldn’t have changed what I have already done (I wouldn’t have wanted the ADDED expense of batteries), but with the opportunity to have a (reasonably performing second life) Li ion battery (more energy dense than what would have been installed), the advantages multiply.
+10
Oct 8th, 2010 (10:27 am)If true, it still beats the crap out of a Prius on gasoline usage, and if you carry that claim over to a Plugin Prius, that “Pri-tard” is an even bigger waste of money.
+4
Oct 8th, 2010 (10:27 am)So… wonder if you only use 20 miles of range a day? My commute and most of the commuters where I live only have a 10 mile commute each way. That’s about 20miles a day. The VOLT will do just fine… even with a long drive every week on the weekends… only a month or two and we will be getting many real world posts.
100mpg + will be easy to get in the VOLT for most commuters. That’s double of any mass produced vehicle made to date! The next couple years are going to be very interesting.
-18
Oct 8th, 2010 (10:38 am)(click to show comment)
+1
Oct 8th, 2010 (10:59 am)For some, the Plug in Prius, or the regular Prius, will be a better option. That does not mean that the Volt will not be a valid option for others. It’s a big country, a big world, with all kinds of people who buy cars for all kinds or reasons. Not all those reasons are purely price driven. Toyota will continue to sell lots of Priuses, and GM will sell every Volt it can produce, and Nissan will sell every Leaf it can produce, as will Mitsubishi, at least for the next couple years. Heck, even Coda will probably get away with selling out for the first year or so.
Once the volumes ramp up, price will be more of a factor, but by that time we will be into Gen 2 or 3 of these cars, and prices will have come down. Patience. Changes of this magnitude do not happen over night.
Options are good. Life would be no fun if we were all the same.
+2
Oct 8th, 2010 (11:11 am)That is correct. But if you stop to think about it, after the useful life, say 5 years from now?, there will most likely be a better alternative. Where LG has a DOD of 80% as the spec for their cells, now A123 has a 20ah prismatic pouch cell on nanotech that has a 100% DOD: http://www.a123systems.com/a123/products
IMHO, life after “usefull life” for a battery is most likely going to be death, or recycle.
/but that’s just me.
+1
Oct 8th, 2010 (11:11 am)This is good info for raw data and it seems that the detractors don’t know handle the truth for the extreme performance data. I applaud GM for getting it out there. What about the Nissan cell? Does the Leaf battery have any environmental testing data that can be compared to what we know about the Volt battery? The Leaf must depend on a less expensive battery to make the car viable for a greater range of drivers.
Enough of the Prius comparisons, there just isn’t anything there worth comparing (except the fall back argument of price!). The Toyota program hinges on mpg marketing and for as long as Toyota sticks to that then EREV’s will always have the upper hand in measuring real world petroleum use.
-14
Oct 8th, 2010 (11:16 am)(click to show comment)
Oct 8th, 2010 (11:20 am)Get your -1′s ready…..
The same concept you say falls in place of what the giant M$ (Microsoft) does…….DEPRECATE or as HP does EOL (End Of Life).
At some point, even the battery suppliers will stop supporting a specific chemistry when better comes along. And when better comes along, so does the price tag for “Better” and the price will be for the “Worse”. Hey whattayaknow, a Marriage!!!
Oct 8th, 2010 (11:21 am)Aw man, got modded replying to Charlie H
(
Oct 8th, 2010 (11:25 am)If you can afford a Volt, there’s no justification for buying a Prius. (unless you’re part of the 5% that commutes more than 120 miles).
-1
Oct 8th, 2010 (11:26 am)Thanks. I see this:
“Song, however, declined to comment on further financial details, but industry sources estimated that the contract is valued at a minimum of $1.8 billion over five years.”
See above. Note the use of the word, “minimum.” The devil is in the details. Nor are “industry sources” necessarily authoritative or 100% in the know.
Maybe a replacement Volt pack will cost $1K in 2020 but I doubt it. Among other things, GM puts a lot of money into the conditioning apparatus; the price of that isn’t going to fall very far or very fast.
-7
Oct 8th, 2010 (11:35 am)You don’t have to “commute” more than 120 miles to make a Prius pay. Suppose you drive 6 miles per day? Run the numbers on that and see what you get. Suppose you drive 6 miles per day and then 480 miles every other weekend? Run the numbers on that and see what you get.
I don’t commute 120 miles per day and a Volt would save me 3 gallons of fuel per year, compared to a standard Prius. The Volt would still cost about that extra $10K, though.
Few seem to stop and think about the cost of the Volt for drivers who drive considerably less than 40 miles per day… their savings are minimized by the fact that their low mileage means that their other options don’t cost much to operate and consume little fuel. The Volt is still a huge extra chunk of money which makes a cost comparison look unappetizing. And those low-mileage users include the people who already try to live green and would be a natural market for an EV. Cost matters!
+2
Oct 8th, 2010 (11:38 am)Thats an interesting question? But I guess we have 10 years to answer it.
They may have replacement or refurbishing processes that cost under $1000 at that time. Your quote of $5k is for a complete new battery pack in todays money in 10 years worst case scenario.
I think we would find maintenance costs for EV’s to be less then ICE cars even if that battery has to be refurbished.
In fact that is one possibility that could lead to much cheaper batteries. Maybe in 5 years they will decide they don’t need to make batteries last 100,000 miles, maybe they just need to last 50,000 miles and then the battery could be refurbished for the next 50,000 miles after that.
Perhaps that will be when you buy new tires and refurbish your battery, then they say see you again in 50,000 miles.
-8
Oct 8th, 2010 (11:44 am)Even if it uses 8.8 kWh, 40 miles is still optimistic at 220 Wh/mile. Tesla and Toyota use 250 Wh/mile to estimate their EV range.
-11
Oct 8th, 2010 (11:53 am)(click to show comment)
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Oct 8th, 2010 (11:57 am)(click to show comment)
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Oct 8th, 2010 (11:58 am)(click to show comment)
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Oct 8th, 2010 (12:01 pm)51% commute within 10 miles range. Why would they buy Volt over PHV Prius?
http://www.bts.gov/publications/omnistats/volume_03_issue_04/html/figure_02.html
+1
Oct 8th, 2010 (12:04 pm)http://garfwod.250free.com/Volt_Hawaii_Five%200.mp3
NPNS
-11
Oct 8th, 2010 (12:05 pm)(click to show comment)
+1
Oct 8th, 2010 (12:07 pm)The price of Gen 1 won’t kill it because the production volumes are small. GM will sell every Gen 1 Volt that comes off the line to enthousiasts who are not price sensitive. People who’s priorities are different than getting the best bang per lifecycle dollar. Gen 1 is not a mass market product, the volumes are too small, so please quit treating it like one.
When Gen 2 arrives, pricing will be different. No one knows what that cost will be, so all there is is speculation. If GM is serious about taking the Volt mass market, pricing will have to come down to be attractive on a lifecycle basis, like the current Prius is now.
Apples, meet oranges.
-9
Oct 8th, 2010 (12:07 pm)Voltbots at work.
+13
Oct 8th, 2010 (12:10 pm)If you want another Toyota on the road go out and buy one. It’s time for a car like the Volt. I like it and I bought one. Here’s why:
The Volt operates with full time electric drive to the wheels. Very good acceleration. Smooth quiet comfortable driving experience included. Whether you charge your Volt at home. Or charge your Volt at work or at the shopping center for free. Or use a solar system. The bottom line is you’re going to use no gasoline for the first 40 miles you drive. You haven’t sent your earned dollars to OPEC. You haven’t caused anyone to choke on your smoke. You may have helped a soldier protect America rather than protecting a desert pipeline in the Middle East. You may have saved an American job. You haven’t had to fight for a fueling space at the gas station. The Volt is comfortable and quiet beyond anything prior, provides excellent torque, offers outrageous tech features standard, is stylish, and delivers triple digit MPG.
=D-Volt
+2
Oct 8th, 2010 (12:14 pm)For many people, gasoline efficiency simply isn’t good enough. Many potential buyers of the Gen 1 Volt are not as price sensitive. They have other priorities. They will be willing to pay a premium to have a more flexible EV range. They ay have longer commutes, and want more EV range to account for that. For those who want the maximum EV only range available, with the security of a gas backup, the Volt is a superior vehicle. Don’t forget the Volt Gen 1 is still a relatively low volume car.
Come Volt Gen 2, everything may change.
For those who have shorter commutes, and are more price sensitive, the Plug in Prius may well be a better choice. It’s great we have so many choices coming, isn’t it?
For some, a BEV like the Leaf or the i-MiEV will be a better choice.
Courses, meet horses. Choice is good.
+1
Oct 8th, 2010 (12:23 pm)They may not. Still, the other 20-30% of the population that commute more than 10 and less than 40 miles makes for enough potential buyers to sell out Gen 1 production with ease.
By some quick math, 20% of the US population is about 62 MILLION people that the Volt would be ideal for. If only a tenth of a percent of THAT population decided to actually buy a Volt, that’s still 62 thousand units sold, which is more than the current announced production run. That doesn’t include enthousiasts who will buy a Volt even though it’s not perfectly ideal for thier cummuting needs. Or all the people in Europe or Asia that GM will sell Volts to.
Considering that Gen 2 is already on it’s way, and is expected to be more mass market friendly, I don’t see the problem.
Plug in Priuses will sell, Volts will sell, Leafs will sell, i-MiEVs will sell, and we’ll all be better for having more plug in cars on the road displacing oil.
“Keep your stick on the ice. We’re all in this together.” – Red Green
+3
Oct 8th, 2010 (12:29 pm)Fair point but not sure what it means. Not every car will have the same efficiency and what cycle you use makes a big difference. For example, Nissan says the Leaf has a hundred mile range on the LA4 Cycle. That’s a very mild cycle. Certainly you wouldn’t get anything close to a hundred miles on a US06 Cycle. But is Nissan wrong? Not really. And then you have driving distances. When they released the Prius last year didn’t Toyota challenge the journalists to beat some MPG number? And didn’t some do a lot better than other, like 20 MPG?
The point would be that there are so many variables that a number is just a guide and not much else. Take any one number with a shaker of salt.
+3
Oct 8th, 2010 (12:34 pm)Anyone who wants a cooler car. Actual gas usage has nothing to do with it.
Turn the question around. If you’re only going five miles a day why buy a Prius rather than a Fit? Essentially if you’re not driving very far it doesn’t matter much what you’re driving.
The BMS on the Volt is really “da bomb”. With the possible exception of Ford’s Focus, there isn’t anything approaching this quality on the market or even on the horizon. Heck, the Leaf doesn’t even have a TMS. The BMS system on the Volt is something you really can’t identify as a weakness.
Oct 8th, 2010 (12:38 pm)Sounds good, except you’ll have to sign a waiver dissolving your warranty!
Would be nice to have the option, but I wouldn’t hold my breath.
+2
Oct 8th, 2010 (12:38 pm)I follow your second point, which is absolutely true — the Leaf takes the same time to charge per kWh or per mile driven as the Volt. But where are you getting the idea that the “average” driver will use 5 kWh per day? If you look at the real world data a lot of people going short distances drive a very aggressive cycle.
-11
Oct 8th, 2010 (12:41 pm)(click to show comment)
+20
Oct 8th, 2010 (12:45 pm)Comfort. Style. Power. Performance. Exclusivity. Build Quality. Info-tainment Features. Shoulder Room. Hip Room. Higher All-Electric Range, Lower Gasoline Usage. Lower Carbon Footprint. Quieter. More Airbags. Longer Warranty. Built in America by Americans. But mostly because we don’t want to look like you or this guy:
+2
Oct 8th, 2010 (12:45 pm)I’d be tempted, considering how pampered the battery in the Volt is. Having said that, it would be nice to have options, like with the Tesla Rodster. Normal mode, for day to day driving, and a “range mode” that allows you to charge up to 100% and opens up the lower range of battery for an extra 30 miles or so of range now and then. I would trade a lesser battery warranty, say 5 years, for that option. But that’s just me. I certainly don’t expect anything like that to come out of GM.
Aftermarket though… who knows? Considering the level of hackery that has been going on with the plug-in Prius market, there is definitely some talent out there that would be equal to the task.
+2
Oct 8th, 2010 (12:46 pm)+1, and sound reasoning. However, that’s not why *I* neg him. I do it because he’s a jerk.
+2
Oct 8th, 2010 (1:01 pm)“Over time as the battery degrades the car’s electric range will gradually decline. The pack should reach about 70 to 75% of capacity after 8 years/100,000 miles. The car will gradually increase the usable state of charge band, however, to continue enabling the 25 to 50 miles of electric range.”
This makes obvious sense. But, is this something GM folk directly talked about ? I remember earlier talk of the range actually decreasing as time goes by.
ps : If the battery will degrade to 70% in 8 years (same as what Nissan has said about Leaf) – why not give more range in the beginning ending with 40 miles nominal range after 8 years ? Isn’t that a better use of the costly resource ?
+3
Oct 8th, 2010 (1:02 pm)There are lots of battery advancements on the horizon, as well as advancements in understanding battery performance in an automotive application. Some are likely being incorperated into Gen 2 of the Volt as we speak, to lower the cost.
Volt Gen 1 is not a mass market car. It just needs to sell enough to pave the way for Gen 2, which it will. The announce production volumes are not that high. We all know that.
It boggles the mind that people still drag out the tired old “coal is just as dirty” argument. Assuming that it’s evn true, which it isn’t, it’s still better to be using coal than oil. Displacing ICE pollution out of dense urban areas will cure more people than a coal mine will kill. Coal is domestic. Considering the lives lost fighting over oil, both military and civilian, it’s no contest. I could go on, but I won’t. This argument has been beaten to death far too many times. It’s time to move on.
Is domestic grid power the perfect solution? No, but it’s a better one, and it opens the door to further improvement over time.
Don’t let the perfect become the enemy of the good. Progress towards a more efficient and sustainable source of transportation energy is a good thing, even if we can’t make the leap all in one jump.
Oct 8th, 2010 (1:05 pm)That 10 miles is one way. So, I’ve no idea why plugin Prius has only 13 miles range – I’d have thought they will atleast have 20 miles range.
-8
Oct 8th, 2010 (1:12 pm)Good for you that Volt works for you. I have a Prius and have no need for another car. It is rock solid for 133k miles and still excited every time I drive it. I hope you get the same experience out of the Volt.
My post was to those with short commute. Why would they pay extra $11k?
The #1 and #2 country we import oil from are Canada and Mexico. Middle East is further down the list and we don’t need to eliminate petroleum usage to cut off OPEC from supplying us. We simply need to use 50% of what we use now. Volt, Leaf, PHV Prius, standard Prius and other hybrids will help us get to that goal. The difference is the cost/benefit ratio.
+3
Oct 8th, 2010 (1:13 pm)There is some truth here. Incentives can play a big role. Haven’t sales of the Prius fallen off a cliff in Japan now that the incentives have ended? On the other hand, the world economy is in the toilet and oil is at $85/bbl. Do you really think $200/bbl oil is unthinkable?
Not where he lives. California gets very little energy from coal. The biggest contributor is natural gas. Even renewable sources like solar and wind are larger than coal. You can confirm this for yourself by reading the report that usbseawolf has cited. Plus even in places like Florida, which traditionally has used a lot of coal, generation is now quickly moving to combined natural gas plants. It’s a changing world.
-9
Oct 8th, 2010 (1:18 pm)Ok, how about Volt generating more greenhouse gas? They are not sensitive to emission as well? Sure, you can charge the Volt with solar panels but that’s another ~ $15k.
-7
Oct 8th, 2010 (1:24 pm)Nissan is using about 200 Wh/mile. If Toyota use it, PHV Prius should be advertised for 17.5 EV miles. 220 Wh/mile comes out to 16 miles.
Obviously, Toyota is using “hotel load” including A/C and other usage to be realistic.
+1
Oct 8th, 2010 (1:25 pm)# 32
crew Said:
You must live in LA (and not Portland), huh.
Until future ambient battery tech matches the performance of the current Volt battery, a lot of EV’s will be the fair weather friends that work within a Better Place type system.
So little done, so much to be done.
-8
Oct 8th, 2010 (1:27 pm)The answer is easy. Fit can’t cover 5 miles commute on battery. PHV Prius and Volt can. Why are you downplaying the gas usage now?
Volt’s BMS is not in question. It’s battery pack is in question. Deeper discharge means shorter life.
Oct 8th, 2010 (1:32 pm)I didn’t pay attention to this part ($3K for a lot of battery).
We shouldn’t equate the $1.8B with 500K EVs. Nowhere does LG say they are supplying batteries for all 500K EVs Renault is planning to build. Infact they are not – Renault and Nissan are opening several battery plants in EU over the next 5 years.
+1
Oct 8th, 2010 (1:33 pm)Probably cause Toyota though people would like a trunk. Seriously, increasing the battery size introduces packaging issues.
Also, like I said above, if you’re not driving many miles the difference between 50 MPG and 150 MPG is trivial. The difference in your scenarios would be what, 50 gallons of gas a year? The real difference is in technology — EVs are cool, hybrids not so much.
+5
Oct 8th, 2010 (1:35 pm)I’m not sure I follow. Generating electricity produces less GHG, than burning gas in an ICE, no matter how you produce it. Besides, I don’t know of anywhere than relies exclusively on coal, and many areas are adding sustainable generation to the grid daily, so the argument only gets better. Those who are GHG sensitive will want the best EV range possible, thus making the Volt a better argument than the plug-in Prius.
Obviously, since there are already many people with solar panels already, many people consider the upfront cost worthwhile. So again, I don’t follow your argument.
+4
Oct 8th, 2010 (1:41 pm)If the plug-in Prius works for you go for it. But it doesn’t work for me. I want a car that won’t start then engine every time it starts or have the engine cut on whenever I accelerate. IOW I don’t want a second best technology. It has nothing to do with gas usage. What I’m saying is that if you are concerned about cost, and you don’t drive many miles, a Fit would cost less and not use much more gas than a plug-in Prius. IOW the Volt is to the plug-in Prius as the Prius is to the Fit — an expensive technology.
No idea what you’re talking about on the depth of discharge. The Volt doesn’t have a very deep one. That’s good, no? Overall, the Volt’s BMS is super. It may end up being overkill but it’s as close to bulletproof as you’re going to get.
Oct 8th, 2010 (1:45 pm)I doubt that. PICC has already developed a plug-in package for the Gen 3 Prius that offers a 40 mile EV only range at up to 70 mph. Considering thier current NiMH based product retains the trunk, I doubt the new Li-ION version will take up any more space.
My guess is Toyota is being conservative and price sensitive.
Oct 8th, 2010 (1:48 pm)Kinda makes you wonder what the battery life on a plug-in prius will be, what with it’s smaller battery and more numerous discharge cycles, huh?
Oct 8th, 2010 (1:50 pm)Don’t know about Toyota being conservative as you must remember a few years ago the they had to reduce their HP numbers as they were cheating and got caught.
Oct 8th, 2010 (1:53 pm)The pics I’ve seen has it kinda fitting right behind the rear seats and taking up a chuck of the trunk. I also doubt that Toyota would be willing to go with something seemingly so unsafe. I’m not paranoid but having a trunk filled with poorly protected Li-on batteries would make me very nervous.
Oct 8th, 2010 (1:59 pm)I meant technologically conservative, which has been demonstrated lots of times as they have resisted the EV movement and tried to stick with thier current NiMH hybrid technology as long as possible. The plug-in Prius is still little more than a regular Prius technically, and isn’t even as good as some of the aftermarket options available.
Toyota could have come out with a 40 mile pack, and revised management to allow a 70 mph EV only mode, but instead PICC did it. Proof that Toyota is lagging behind, doing much less than what the car is capable of.
Oct 8th, 2010 (2:05 pm)From what I understand it takes the space that was a cubby underneath the trunk floor, leaving the normal trunk area unaffected.
I’m guessing that PICC is using a pretty safe chemistry for their batteries. EV conversionists and plug in conversions have been running around for years using LiPO4, with nary an issue. The standard NiMH batteries in the Prius aren’t thermally managed, and sit right behind the rear seats anyway. I’m pretty sure the plug in pack for Toyota’s version is in the same place as well, under the trunk floor.I highly doubt those batteries are thermally protected either. We’re well past the days of lithium cobalt batteries bursting into flames if you look at them funny.
-5
Oct 8th, 2010 (2:15 pm)Not from Coal. See Figure 6.10 (page 107) from US DOE report.
http://www.osti.gov/bridge/servlets/purl/982352-XonYa7/982352.pdf
+1
Oct 8th, 2010 (2:16 pm)Sure, here’s one example that describes such an installation:
http://www.lighthousesolar.com/about-solar/grid-tie-battery-back-up
But don’t get me wrong, I agree with you that a Volt battery for such a backup system is a great way to go.
join thE REVolution
-9
Oct 8th, 2010 (2:25 pm)Volt will start the gas engine after the maintenance light comes on, you like it or not – To clear out the stale gas or to lubricate the gas engine with oil. By your definition, you are getting a second best technology. First class being Nissan Leaf.
Prius costs more than Fit but it is a bigger and more refine car with more standard equipment. The extra cost of hybrid technology pays for itself. Prius is outselling Fit by 3:1.
Volt is smaller than a Prius and the extra $18k will never pay back. The smaller car is supposed to be more fuel efficient. That is not true for Volt in CS mode.
-11
Oct 8th, 2010 (2:30 pm)(click to show comment)
-11
Oct 8th, 2010 (2:38 pm)(click to show comment)
-10
Oct 8th, 2010 (2:39 pm)(click to show comment)
-11
Oct 8th, 2010 (2:41 pm)(click to show comment)
-12
Oct 8th, 2010 (2:41 pm)(click to show comment)
-12
Oct 8th, 2010 (2:43 pm)(click to show comment)
+5
Oct 8th, 2010 (2:53 pm)Good to see more engineering information we’ve been wondering about for the past few years is finally emerging. Beginning this weekend, October 9, 2010, and for the next couple of weeks, over 150 automotive writers and EV enthusiasts are to be given unrestricted access to the Volt in southeast Michigan. This is to include extended test drives on all roads and reportedly all engineering questions answered. This information was posted this morning by Tony Posawatz, Volt Line Production Engineer, on another website.
Oct 8th, 2010 (3:00 pm)Things are starting to move along. Good deal. Is GM still holding to the 10,000 production number for the 2011 Volt?
http://garfwod.250free.com/Volt_pedestrian%20friendly%20alert.mp3
=D-Volt
-6
Oct 8th, 2010 (3:06 pm)Are you saying EVs are a California-only solution?
Peaking generation is moving to gas. Baseload remains on coal and I believe there’s more permits out for new coal plants than for new nukes, by quite a margin. Demand shaping will also encourage more coal, unless we take steps to discourage coal in favor of greener options.
$200/bbl oil is certainly thinkable. But do we wait for it to hit us or do we take steps to prevent $200/bbl oil from becoming an economic disaster for us and an econic windfall for OPEC? Putting absurd subsidies out for non-sustainable vehicle choices achieves nothing. Taxing oil to $200/bbl (and taxing coal) changes demand overnight, cuts the deficit and stimulates a wide range of free-market solutions to the problem of expensive oil before it becomes a crippling crisis that benefits someone else.
+9
Oct 8th, 2010 (3:07 pm)Have you hugged your troll today?
=D-Volt
-8
Oct 8th, 2010 (3:11 pm)DonC,
Japanese Prius sales slowed, yes, but “cliff” might be an overstatement…
“Despite the lower sales, the gasoline-electric hybrid was the top-selling car in Japan for the 17th straight month in September, the Japan Automobile Dealers Association said.”
Toyota still sold about 27K Priuses. In the US, Prius sales track the price of gas and they have been running 14K or so for a while. When gas hit $4/gallon, Toyota sold about 21K in a single month – and then ran out.
Selling 14K/month still isn’t too shabby… I think it outsells the Malibu. It might outsell every GM model except the Silverado and Impala; I haven’t checked lately.
-1
Oct 8th, 2010 (3:15 pm)What Nissan has said doesn’t match reality. It’s hard to believe that putting a battery through as deep charge-discharge cycles as they’re implying, would degrade the battery down to only %70 after 8 years. Millions of Li-ion powered electronic devices attest to that every day. I think we’ll see 70% degradation in Leafs after 2 years not 8. Even GM’s claim I’d have to see to believe, in lack of any other system like theirs out there. The only way to know for sure is to see what happens 8 years from now.
You’d think you’re better utilizing a battery by deeply charging/discharging it, but you’re not. Li-ion batteries don’t work that way. And how exactly is charging a battery more a “better use” of it other than for longer trips which need the range? Charging more frequently doesn’t hurt the battery, it in fact helps it. And in the Volt since you have a range extender on board, there’s no need for the extra range from the battery, might as well increase its life if you can. I can see why Nissan is charging the Leaf’s battery so much though, in their case it’s really needed. A 60 mile range BEV won’t cut it.
Oct 8th, 2010 (3:16 pm)Actually the Volt does use more at times. A year ago GM offered several details regarding the use of OnStar to maximize Volt range. One item mentioned is that OnStar is aware of your home charge station (your garage). And rather than use gasoline to make it the last mile to the charge base. OnStar will sometimes allow a deeper discharge.
=D-Volt
+1
Oct 8th, 2010 (3:33 pm)Interesting report. I haven’t read the whole thing cover to cover yet, but I’ve skimmed it enough to get a good sense of what they were attempting to do.
However… They make a lot of assumptions that are recognized in the report itself as being sources of great uncertainty. They also don’t talk much about their WTP assumptions, which can have a huge effect on GHG. Thier assumptions for market penetration and future generation mix is also signifigantly uncertain, and has a sizeable effect on thier results. This is all stright from the report, if you read past the graphs. It would be nieve to simply take this one report at face value.
It’s interesting to note that, except for Illinois, excess electricity production for PHEV and EV charging was assumed to be handled by CCNG, not coal.
The only real conclusion that can be drawn is that generation mix has a large effect on GHG emmisions. No kidding. The idea that the generation mix will affect the GHG emissions of an electrically drive vehicle are not new. It also illustrates that power generation and distribution is extremely complicated. If you live in Illinois, then maybe it’s a slightly dodgier position to drive electric. Depending on when you are charging, and how many people are running thier A/C at the time. Depending on whether the gas in your car is coming from Alberta or Iraq. However, if you live in Illinois and put a solar panel on you roof, all the sudden it’s a different story. Besides, there are other benefits to generating electricity vs. burning gas in a car. Displacing urban air pollution is a good one. Domestic energy production is another.
Besides, even if you blindly follow this report, and even in Illinois where coal dominates, PHEVs fared no worse than an equivalent gas vehicle. The point that gets missed so often in this argument though, is that grid mix can change for the better. Burning gas in a car cannot.
Give me coal now, with the promise of something better tomorrow.
+1
Oct 8th, 2010 (3:40 pm)Where are these numbers coming from? I thought the Prius plug-in battery was 5.2 kWh. You can’t use all of it or it would die a quick death. My SWAG would be half, or 2.6 kWh. Now let’s do the math: 2600 watts used to go 13 miles give you … 200 wh/mile.
Oct 8th, 2010 (3:42 pm)True. If Toyota came out with a 30 mile plug in Prius, I’d buy the warranty argument. A bit less range for a pampered battery, but 13 miles? I’m confident that if a small company can hack a 40 mile solution, the multi billion dollar automotive jugernaught that is Toyota could do better than 13 miles. There’s conservative, and then there’s just plain digging in your heels.
+1
Oct 8th, 2010 (3:45 pm)Nissan seems to be very sure about their batteries, after all they have been testing them since 2000.
The percentage degradation per cycle is easy to measure.. all you need is a precise measurement of voltages and currents.. the hard part to measure is the calendar life degradation, strongly affected by temperature and you actually need years to measure this.
Tesla benefited from lots of laptop cell life data, Nissan has been doing their own engineering and GM got their data from LG.
We talk a lot about this stuff over at the engineering forum.
The recent $1.8 billion order for LG batteries by Renault implies a cost of $3000 per 20kwh pack. for 500k packs.
+3
Oct 8th, 2010 (3:48 pm)LOL. Do you really think Ghosn is ok with replacing the battery 4 times ? He is not some dumb guy – be brought Nissan from the brink of bunkruptcy to make Nissan-Renault alliance the 4th largest in the world.
Lot of people don’t understand that all Lithium batteries are not the same. Nissan (and GM) use Manganese spinal – not your laptop cobalt batteries. They are also flat i.e. much better at heat dessipation. Mn spinal has excellent thermal characteristics – and low internal resistance. I suggest some reading and use of common sense before jumping to conclusions.
Oct 8th, 2010 (3:50 pm)Again, I’ve never seen one in person, but the pics definitely show it using a good part of the trunk.
I wouldn’t be too sanguine about the safety of any existing battery technology. Certainly a major manufacturer is not going to put hundreds of thousands of EVs on the road with Li-ion batteries in the passenger compartment. That would be asking for trouble and be less responsible than the gas tank of Ford Pintos. If you look at the Volt battery pack, GM has what essentially amounts to a blast shield between the batteries and the passenger compartment. That’s not an accident.
+2
Oct 8th, 2010 (3:51 pm)You know what this means, lots of reports on CS mode mileage driven by maniac lead foot reporters.. so get ready for worst case numbers!
+2
Oct 8th, 2010 (3:52 pm)You must be under the impression that 24kwh is the total size of Nissan’s battery. It is not.
24kwh is the usable battery size. Nissan hasn’t disclosed the actual size – afterall a lot of searching / reading tea leaves we (Leaf forum) think the actual size is about 30kwh, giving 80% DOD.
+6
Oct 8th, 2010 (3:54 pm)Well… you could, but lets (for arguments sake) say that you would not. However, gasoline is an expensive fuel compared to off peak electricity, especially if you drive less than 40 miles a day (~15,000 miles a year). How much extra are you spending on fuel than someone who is charging their car every night? Depending on your car it could be between $10,000 – $20,000 for those eight years.
ICE (lets say 21mpg for 15,000 miles/year over eight years at $2.95/gal = $16,857)
ELEC: check this link http://www.examiner.com/global-warming-in-national/what-does-it-cost-to-operate-an-electric-car
One other question… Can you make gasoline at your home? Because I can make electricity with the solar array I have, and it does not pollute anywhere near what you would conservatively estimate what gas does (through its creation, not use). This includes harvesting, refining, transporting (ship or pipeline), transporting again (truck) then burnt and blown into the atmosphere by your car sitting at a stoplight.
Harrier
Oct 8th, 2010 (3:57 pm)That is a possibility – though they can use the newer Panasonic batteries to get better density. It could also be a cost issue (though the nature of tax credit should make that less relevent).
My guess is that if they had 13 mile and 20 mile options (with lesser trunc) a lot of people would select 20 miles. To be able to drive oilfree on your daily commute would be a powerful motivator for anyone looking at plugins.
+1
Oct 8th, 2010 (4:06 pm)Yes Li-ion chemistries are different, but I think he was responding to the claim that Nissan was using virtually 100% of the battery. Doing that regularly would not be a good idea. Ditto for DC charging.
Carlos Gohsn has some big ones. He’s making a huge bet on EVs, and one the risks he’s taking on is the Leaf’s battery packs. Yes the cells are long, thin, and flat — all of which will help with heat — but they’re using most of the pack and there is no active thermal management. These are not good things. Good guess would be that some of these packs will not make eight years and will have to be replaced, which is no doubt why Nissan was quick to offer attractive lease terms — the risk of a battery failure in three years would be negligible. At some point it’s just a risk like others, such as not having enough customers for a new technology.
He could fail. I don’t think he will, but just because he guessed right in the past doesn’t mean he’s right on this one. It’s risky.
+2
Oct 8th, 2010 (4:07 pm)Indeed, even calling them Lithium batteries is a misnomer, since the Li is just the electrolyte; the cathode and anode are another material entirely, and as your chart showed the cathode/anode choice is what really differentiates the battery technology. Someone recently said something like “calling it a Lithium battery is like calling a lead-acid battery an acid battery”. Lithium is like 2% of the material in the battery, which also neatly squashes the “omigod lithium will run out” nonsense.
FYI, it’s “spinel” not “spinal”. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spinel
+4
Oct 8th, 2010 (4:15 pm)Yes but keep in mind that the Prius uses gas every time you turn it on. In order to avoid uncontrolled cold starts it does a controlled start to warm the cat converter every time it turns on. So the “oil free” drive isn’t a possibility.
Also, here is a short description of what happened when the guy over at Autoweek tried to drive the plug-in Prius home in purely electric mode: I actually tried to drive all 22 miles home on electricity alone. But then the internal-combustion engine kicked in going up the ramp out of the parking garage, only a few feet into my journey, so I gave up on that goal.
The power split driver is great engineering but not so easily adapted to a long EV range. I think Toyota is doing the right thing with the technology they’re working with.
+1
Oct 8th, 2010 (4:16 pm)There are some decent pics on the Luscious Garage website.
http://lusciousgarage.com/blog/picc_certified_prius_plug_in_installer/
The pack takes up the space under the floor of the trunk, which used to be a storage cubby, and the spare tire well underneath that. The floor of the trunk is not changed at all.
Since Toyota has deemed the NiMH battery to be safe enough to put in the passenger compartment, I wouldn’t be worried about the current 25 mile PICC pack, which uses the same chemistry.
While I agree with you that various lithium chemistries are a bit more concerning, there are some that are very safe. There is likely a reason why the first lithium cells on the market to hobbyists are the LiPO4 chemistry, and most small manufacturers seem to be using them, whereas GM and Nissan are using more reactive manganese based cells. I’m certainly not being sanguine about it, but it depends on the chemistry. Good luck getting me anywhere near a cobalt based pack without thermal control and redundant safety systems. LiPO4 though? I don’t think I’d want to lick it or anything, but I’m not as concerned it’s going to turn me into a crispy critter.
+11
Oct 8th, 2010 (4:34 pm)Engine Maintenance Mode (EMM) only comes on if the ICE Gen has not been used at all for 42 days, and when you give it “permission” to proceed, the engine runs for only 10 minutes. Fuel Maintenance Mode (FMM) will only run if the average age of the gasoline in the tank is greater than 365 days old.
Volt owners who NEVER drive over the initial 40-50 miles after an overnight charge are recommended to keep the tank about 1/3 full, which would be about 100 miles range if the owner ever needed it. Should FMM become necessary, they can let the ICE Gen use all or a portion of the gas in the tank. Refueling with ‘fresh gas’ (about 1/2 tank) will reset the timer that keeps track of those 365 days.
LET ME REPEAT THAT: 365 DAYS OF NOT USING ANY GAS AT ALL BEFORE FMM IS NEEDED. Can your precious Prius go a full year without using any gas at all? NO F”’n WAY. So don’t try to suggest that the ICE Gen in a Volt is used all the time.
-9
Oct 8th, 2010 (4:46 pm)Electricity efficiency: 6.57 km/kWh (about 4 miles per kWh or 250 Wh/mile)
http://www2.toyota.co.jp/en/news/09/12/1214.html
+3
Oct 8th, 2010 (4:50 pm)Under mechanical specs the Leaf web site says, among other things:
80 kW AC synchronous electric motor
24 kWh lithium-ion (Li-ion) battery
3.3 kW onboard charger
Seems straightforward. Why would you think the battery is larger than what than what they’ve said?
-7
Oct 8th, 2010 (4:57 pm)The report shows PHVs are not for everyone if you care about GHG emission. PHV-10 and PHV-20 emit roughly the same amount as a hybrid however they reduce the petroleum consumption. Anything with more EV range would result in higher emission.
At least that’s the snapshot of the current situation now. In 5 years, electric generation may get cleaner or dirtier (unlikely). This report should shed some light to someone who (care about GHG emission) is making a decision to buy one soon.
+1
Oct 8th, 2010 (4:58 pm)It’s a BALLPARK number. Would you like it better if I said ‘a half dozen or so’ or ‘several’? Maybe ‘somewhere between a few and several’? If something north of 8 kwh gets you approximately 40 miles (as is the point of today’s post), you get the idea- since most people won’t drive 40 miles per day.
My solar array makes about 30 kwh on a very good day. I needed to know a BALLPARK number so I could plan for the future and all my research indicates that this is pretty average number. IEEE seems to indicate I can expect a ‘few’ miles for every kwh. [Yes, they have a number, but I will leave it purposefully vague to drive home the BALLPARK concept I am trying to get across.]
The point is that very few people have really torn apart their electric bills, usage and EV requirements to even really digest what it all means. As I said, some have outright said that if they buy a Leaf, they will need 220v charging when all that really matters is how much they drove since last charge.
-8
Oct 8th, 2010 (5:05 pm)Yes, I was. It is good to know that it may not be the total capacity. That’s a great deal if it has 30kWh.
Oct 8th, 2010 (5:11 pm)No, it is in fact a big fat guess at what the situation might be like in 2020. Read the report.
As I said before, it’s packed full of assumptions that the report itself admits are “signifigantly uncertain”. Grain of salt. Big one.
+1
Oct 8th, 2010 (5:19 pm)Just wondering where you had pulled 5 kWh from. Thought maybe you had a source for this. But what you’re saying is that it was a guess based on the fact that most people drive 40 miles or less a day.
Probably low. The fact is that the “median” driver uses about 280 wh/mile. You can see this in figure nine in this article. http://green.autoblog.com/2008/02/13/autobloggreen-qanda-peter-savagian-talks-about-studying-driver-be/
Now note that there is a long tail on the distribution of miles traveled as well as wh/mile which will affect the “average” driver. A SWAG would be that the “average” driver uses over 7 kWh, maybe even over 8 kWh, a day.
But yes, a typical Leaf driver should be able to charge using a 120V outlet under most circumstances. But personally I’d get a 3.3 kW charger even for the Volt. It’s just a convenience thing. There will be times when it would be helpful to be able to charge as fast as possible.
Oct 8th, 2010 (5:21 pm)Long story, you will have to check the forum for all the details.
Essentially some nissan people have said 24kwh is the “usable”. The AESC battery module specs show higher numbers. etc.
+1
Oct 8th, 2010 (5:26 pm)I’d say it’s more that that it shows that PHvs aren’t for everyone if all you care about is GHG emissions. Personally GHG emissions are the least of my issues. I’d put oil consumption way ahead of this. Then I’d look at pollution. Also note that in some places where the grid is relatively clean, like CA, you get a different result even on GHG emissions. Just depends on the grid really.
But let’s fact it, there is no comparison on the cool technology front!
-6
Oct 8th, 2010 (5:27 pm)You keep repeating this misinformation. Check out this PHV Prius video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v9xGyMhaw0k
+1
Oct 8th, 2010 (5:37 pm)Isn’t that inconsistent with the claim that the range is 100 miles on LA4? Or, stated differently, isn’t the stated 24 kWh consistent with the claimed range?
The current urban cycle uses about 220 wh/mile. The LA4 cycle was considerably milder than that. It might have used less less than 200 wh/mile. If 24 kWh was the available energy, then you’d be looking at something like an AER of 120 miles to 140 miles on the LA4 Cycle. But Nissan is saying 100 miles on LA4, which suggest that you have something on the order of 19 kWh available.
-10
Oct 8th, 2010 (5:40 pm)(click to show comment)
+2
Oct 8th, 2010 (5:52 pm)Here is what Ron Gremban, the lead tech for CalCars has to say on this issue:
The Prius meets AT-PZEV emissions specs, far cleaner than the average new car. I doubt Toyota would want the negative publicity of the PIP not also being AT-PZEV, which means it will be very clean. To this end, the U.S. version will probably always start the engine upon initial vehicle start, as with the existing Prius, in order to do a low pollution, controlled cold start. It will then no doubt monitor the temperature of the catalytic converter and restart the engine for a bit each time it gets close to cooling too far. Therefore, no gasoline-free trips!
As he says, no gas free trips in a plug-in Prius!
+1
Oct 8th, 2010 (5:53 pm)I think he’s right on this one.
NPNS
BTW: Regular pump gas is up from $2.86 a week ago. Lowest is now $3.01 at the local Arco.
+2
Oct 8th, 2010 (5:57 pm)You know, I think that Chevy – and Nissan, for that matter – would have less resistance to early sale anxiety if they announced that at the end of the battery warranty, the owner would be eligible for a “no-profit” replacement battery, which I think we can all assume will be, five years out, a better battery. That is, there would be no profit made at the manufacturer or service facility to replace the battery, just the actual cost of the battery and the labor. It would be a unique promise, but these are unique cars trying to gain a market foothold at a very critical time.
+3
Oct 8th, 2010 (5:59 pm)Actually if you look at #144 you’ll find that CalCars says it can’t go a block gas free. For more amusement, check out the quote in #133. The Autoweek reviewer couldn’t get his plug-in Prius out of the parking garage without the engine coming on. The ramp was too steep!
Oct 8th, 2010 (6:03 pm)If you see carefully Nissan says “more than” 100 miles. I believe they are being conservative. If you see the various “range of ranges” they have given, you can see why we think so.
Moreover Nissan wants to start a reduced speed and then a turtle mode after hitting 20 kwh (i.e. 4 kwh remaining). We don’t know whether the 100 miles range is before that or after.
Oct 8th, 2010 (6:09 pm)I’ve seen some reports that say the ICE didn’t start (may be temperature dependant ?).
In anycase, this is not something they can’t change easily. They can start the engine in the last mile or so to heatup the CC. BTW, I think GM will do the same to get to the ATPZEV certification in the next year or so.
+1
Oct 8th, 2010 (6:11 pm)Interesting idea. I believe the owner will have several options after the initial 10-15 years of automotive battery life.
Replace the original T battery with another 40 mile range original.
Upgrade to a similar size battery rated for longer range (100 miles?).
Use the original battery as a storage cell for home or business use.
Keep the original battery as is in the Volt to maintain the value of a limited run 1st year EV.
Many are overlooking the small number of Volts being produced during the 2011 model year. This is very important to resale value. GM knows what they are doing with their low priced lease offer. They want these limited edition first year cars returned. It has been mentioned here several times. What is a 2011 Volt (1 of 10,000) worth at the 2020 Barrett Jackson auction? At least $40,000.
=D-Volt
Oct 8th, 2010 (6:18 pm)#111
Charlie H Said:
Oct 8th, 2010 (2:41 pm)
DonC: Probably cause Toyota though people would like a trunk. Seriously, increasing the battery size introduces packaging issues. Also, like I said above, if you’re not driving many miles the difference between 50 MPG and 150 MPG is trivial. The difference in your scenarios would be what, 50 gallons of gas a year? The real difference is in technology — EVs are cool, hybrids not so much. (Quote)
To paraphrase Forrest Gump, technology is as technology does. The Volt is twice the price of a decent compact car, has only 10 cu ft cargo capacity, holds only 4 and gets mediocre CS mode fuel economy. It does offer 40 miles, nominal, EV range. But the typical vehicle owner would be giving up a lot to get that 40 miles of EV range.
Technological wonder-mobiles come and go. Price matters. The Model T was no great shakes as a car but it was inexpensive enough to put the nation on wheels.
Agreed, what we need is a Model T, not a Pierce Arrow.
Oct 8th, 2010 (6:27 pm)Like everything else, the question will be how far battery technology advances by the time your ready to incorporate the used T-battery pack. You may find that the additional cost of the latest battery technology is worth the cost; sell your T and use the money for a more advanced, aka, more powerful, smaller, and lighter battery for your solar system.
It’s your battery do with it what you want. I’m sure some enterprising individual will find the way to dismantle the battery from the Volt and integrate it into a solar system.
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
Oct 8th, 2010 (6:28 pm)The Volt has the wherewithall to be a Model T. Fluff is the problem. Fluff is probably the most expensive product by pound.
Oct 8th, 2010 (6:46 pm)There will be many basic BEV and EREV available in a few years. The Volt is what it is. A car engineered to deliver a smooth high tech experience to the driver @ triple digit mpg. Many will prefer the Yaris, Leaf, and Diesel VW. The Volt is a fantastic start to an electric future. A side product will be EV kit cars. And home conversion kits. The Prius, Sky, and Corvette are great car to gut and electrify. Even the Aztek would be cool as an EV.
=D-Volt
Oct 8th, 2010 (6:46 pm)An ICE will also have poorer fuel economy, emissions, and power numbers over time, but I don’t hear anyone complaining about that?
-5
Oct 8th, 2010 (6:58 pm)I should have been clear that the warranty issue I was thinking about was the 70 mph no-ICE-spin in the PICC solution vs 60ish in Toyota stock. Since this is just a software flag, it really has nothing to do with superior PICC engineering, but Toyota conservatism to ensure motor longevity.
Fine by me.
More battery in these cars is not a tech breakthrough, it is a marketing decision. Toyota’s decision to lowball capacity and charge less will appeal to some customers and not to others. What’s new ?
My opinion: battery capacity is so expensive, and heavy, at this time that in order to go mainstream, it should be sized for customers able to use twice the EV range just about every day by recharging twice a day. The Toyota PHV 14 mile AER is good for up to about 10k miles a year in the double charge a day scenario. Not too shabby, for a *lot* of potential customers who will not consider a car over $30, maybe not even over $25k.
-6
Oct 8th, 2010 (7:05 pm)You must own a GM car. PZEV cert — like my Prius — is warranted out to 150k miles.
-4
Oct 8th, 2010 (7:23 pm)The Houston ship channel was closed; tankers can’t reach the port. Barring some other interesting problem, gas will drop by at least 10 cents and probably 20 within the next couple weeks.
-5
Oct 8th, 2010 (7:26 pm)Until the engine begins to seriously wear out, performance and fuel economy doesn’t suffer much, at least, not with a fuel injected engine. I have 3 vehicles at 100K+ miles and all are getting the same fuel economy they did when new. No detectable loss of power, either.
-1
Oct 8th, 2010 (7:28 pm)GM didn’t (and couldn’t) build the battery, nor invent the recharging technology. Therefore we know that every car using electricity, be it an EREV or not, will obtain the same result. I’m familiar with conversion the other way – DC to AC, from experience with solar panels, and the conversion effficiency for converters these days is over 95%. But deep cell lead acid batteries extract a 20% penalty for putting juice in and taking it out. So an off-the-grid solar cell system using batteries loses about 25% of the power produced by the panels. If the Volt needs 10kwhr input to assure
8kwhr output, sounds like Volt owners will pay a penalty roughly similar to solar panel owners.
Oct 8th, 2010 (7:30 pm)In ten years, either you will be smiling or frowning if you live that long. By the way I believe that Nissan mentioned the 70% also. Either way, you can say anything now and most likely in ten years no one will remember what you said.
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
+3
Oct 8th, 2010 (7:38 pm)You have to be out of your mind! “Volt’s GHG emission is higher than a standard Prius!?!” LOL
The Prius is a gas guzzler.
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
+1
Oct 8th, 2010 (7:46 pm)Are you sure that what applies to lead acid batteries applies equally to lithium ion batteries?
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
+1
Oct 8th, 2010 (7:47 pm)64 mph vs 70 mph is no big deal to me. I’d take the 25-30 mile, 64 mph version if Toyota decided to make it, if that’s what it took to warranty the motor.
I agree that the 13-14 mile version will have buyers. It’s good that there is choice coming to the marketplace at different price points. That just gets more people on plugs and burning less oil. I’m just saying, it’s technically conservative compared to what they could be offering.
Oct 8th, 2010 (7:49 pm)And what is the loss of power on the grid by the time it gets back to recharge the Volts battery?
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
Oct 8th, 2010 (7:52 pm)The “Volt Unplugged” tour includes a fleet of six Chevy Volts that will be available for test drives. You will also have a chance to meet with a team of engineers, designers, and others who will be on hand to share details on the Volt’s technology and story.
So which cities are on the tour?
* Oct. 9 and 10 – Seattle
* Oct. 13 and 14 – San Francisco
* Oct. 16 – 18 – Los Angeles
* Oct. 20 – San Diego
* Oct. 22 and 23 – San Antonio
* Oct. 24 and 25 – Houston
* Oct. 28 and 29 – Miami
* Oct. 30 – Orlando
* Oct. 29 and 30 – Washington, D.C.
* Nov. 1 – Raleigh, N.C.
* Nov. 5 – 7 – New York City
* Nov. 18 – 20 – Chicago
NPNS
+2
Oct 8th, 2010 (7:56 pm)It’s a complex battery.
24 kWh is the real part.
30 kWh is the imaginary part.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Complex_number
+1
Oct 8th, 2010 (8:05 pm)No it is not. Not the way it is stated here.
Yes, the worst electricity you can find in the country compared to average oil you can get, will make Volt emission higher in some calculations.
But if you take cleaner electricity we find in west, Prius starts losing. Move to northwest (as in my state) Prius is toast in comparison.
In terms of policy, Prius is a non-starter. We want everyone to move to a plugin- so that as the grid gets cleaner so will the car.
With Prius it is the opoosite. More and more of our oil is coming from tar sands and deep ocean. So, oil will steadily get dirtier. So, Prius will steadily get dirtier ….
-10
Oct 8th, 2010 (8:07 pm)(click to show comment)
-10
Oct 8th, 2010 (8:10 pm)(click to show comment)
-5
Oct 8th, 2010 (8:31 pm)To be clear,
I’ve been questioning if the Volt was using more than 8 kwh’s based off of claimed range and the increased charging times that GM has been saying recently. The 8.8 kwh was from a wiki reference but I don’t think I’ve ever stated my guess as to what GM was actually using.
Still another un-answered question:
Is GM dipping into the normally unused reserve in order to stave off power fade in high demand situations? (i.e. passing a string of cars while going up hill) If they are, then you can see that performance issues will arise as the total available kwh capacity of the battery decreases over time — perhaps to the point that the car will go into a permanently reduced power condition (i.e. sport mode is not available) once the battery’s total capacity diminishes over time to a certain threshold.
You can do your own math, but if we assume 10 kwh (useable) is normally available and the battery is down to 70% of total capacity at the 8 year point (11.2 kwh) — then there will be little or no “extra battery reserve” to dip into to handle power fade.
Lyle — curious to hear about 0 to 60 times (with the pedal floored) in normal and sport modes checked in CS and CD. This should provide some clue as to how GM is dealing with power fade. — (dynolicious is a nice little iphone app that can be used to check times and give hp readouts, as long as you know the weight of the car and driver)
+1
Oct 8th, 2010 (8:34 pm)This coming Monday is the “Volt Immersion Center” training for SoCal dealerships. I’m hoping to get plenty of video and ‘under hood close ups’ to share.
+5
Oct 8th, 2010 (8:36 pm)Oh, and they will have a new Prius there too and we get to drive both. I wonder which one will have a gas engine start first… And I hope the brakes work on the Toyota too!
-9
Oct 8th, 2010 (8:51 pm)You never know where trouble will come from.
http://www.autoguide.com/auto-news/2010/04/gm-announces-brake-override-system-for-all-vehicles-as-massive-brake-recall-looms.html
/IMO: The real culprit is industry wide (not Toyota specific) and it’s random electronic, software or emf problems that crop up as important control aspects (accelerator, braking, steering) become electronic — despite the red herring that ‘the man’ wants you to believe about floormats and leaky brake lines. This same story has been playing out (quietly so as to not awaken the public to their vulnerability) in aviation for the last couple of decades.
+3
Oct 8th, 2010 (8:58 pm)http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/car/10q2/2012_toyota_prius_plug-in_hybrid-first_drive_review
The plug-in Prius goes much farther and faster on electricity alone, but remains a Prius in every other respect.
Haha, SLAM!
Oh, and they estimate the Plug in prius at $33k… How is that cheaper than 30k, Eric LG?
join thE REVolution
-8
Oct 8th, 2010 (9:05 pm)It is not, but I won’t lose any sleep over C&D guesses. I personally think that a 14 mile EV Prius over $30k after rebate will only sell to enthusiasts.
-7
Oct 8th, 2010 (9:08 pm)Who? No where in the article does it actually say that.
-10
Oct 8th, 2010 (9:16 pm)(click to show comment)
-10
Oct 8th, 2010 (9:17 pm)(click to show comment)
+3
Oct 8th, 2010 (9:18 pm)Chevrolet Volt at AltCar Expo 2010:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6kiIlfG5W1w&feature=player_embedded
Considering how the comments have gone here all day, check out the comment at 1:11 min.
+1
Oct 8th, 2010 (9:22 pm)Prius, Prius, Prius, Prius, Prius, Prius … I must be on the wrong site.
No, it says gm-volt in my url window!
Looks like the same gang of p-bots is up to their old tricks.
This is our site, not theirs; you know what to do:
Do not engage!
Remember to vote!!
/out
+1
Oct 8th, 2010 (9:27 pm)Watch the video I just posted the URL for in #184.
+1
Oct 8th, 2010 (9:34 pm)Hooray for that guy at 1:11! Thanks Michael, that helped.
-10
Oct 8th, 2010 (9:36 pm)(click to show comment)
-10
Oct 8th, 2010 (9:39 pm)(click to show comment)
-10
Oct 8th, 2010 (9:42 pm)(click to show comment)
-11
Oct 8th, 2010 (9:44 pm)(click to show comment)
Oct 8th, 2010 (9:50 pm)http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6kiIlfG5W1w&feature=player_embedded
Thanks for Alt Car Expo video. Looking forward to more from the current Volt tour.
=D-Volt
+6
Oct 8th, 2010 (11:15 pm)The Volt market is the the people who will buy all 10,000 of them, and the thousands of folks who say, gee I’ll be glad when the Volt is sold in my area.
Oct 8th, 2010 (11:22 pm)The Voltards do not seem to be keeping track, so I’ll help out:
Nicely under $30k is $45k (tax, etc)
50 CS mpg is ~ 34 mpg
40 CD miles is as low as 25 miles
8 kwh/charge is 10 kwh
Let’s add up the jump from hype to reality,
(45/30)(50/34)(40/25)(10/8) = 4.4, or
GM delivers 22% of the hype. M’thinks the only thing GM has ‘leapfrogged’ is its own stupidity and arrogance. No wonder even the Obama admin washed its hands of this train wreck.
Oct 8th, 2010 (11:28 pm)DonC #142
Nothing in your source controverts what I said; again, would you have been happier if I said ‘several’ kwh used during a day?
And right now, all anyone can do is guess or BALLPARK the number, as I said. Until lots of EVs are out there and being driven by average folks, it is absurd to predict with certainty what will happen.
Your assertion appears to be that aggressive driving will reduce average results, yet I have read (and many here would affirm), the average guy gets better results when fuel economy is displayed right in front of him. EVs (like hybrids) constantly remind you how you are doing. I say it is a bad idea to extrapolate current (bad) driving habits into future performance when our new vehicles are going to provide immediate reward (or penalty) feedback for laying off the accelerator.
+1
Oct 9th, 2010 (1:05 am)I think second generation Volt will be lest robust and redundunt. Battery and genset are oversized. For instance Volvo anounced that they are going to produce EREV with 11 kW range extender and 11 kWh battery. Those who like robustness should go for Gen 1 and they will be compensated by tax credit.
+1
Oct 9th, 2010 (1:17 am)You have posted big article but there is very quick answer – kW and kWh are completely different animals. Reduction of kWh capacity not necessary leads to the reduction of kW capacity. We don’t know whether GM uses capacitors in the electrical setup. In that case kW will remain constant for hundred years.
+1
Oct 9th, 2010 (1:36 am)Additionaly, the next generation battery won’t need 16kwh for the same range and the next generation EREV should need less too. Look for 12kwh batteries for this range and car size in 5-7 years.
+1
Oct 9th, 2010 (2:02 am)True, unless they dialed up the usable kwh in a gallon of gas
Just kidding, but I guess they did that a little bit, in a sense, with the premium gas requirement (at least this is what the engineers said). Future EREV ICE’s will do iton the BSFC side. The power electronics, motors, and battery conditioning will also get more efficient. As many of us have been saying for a long time, GEN1 Volts will be the worst EREVs in many ways. But, this is what makes the Volt soooo important because we have to have it to get past it. Too bad some people are so ignorant, hateful, and/or short sighted that they can’t see this.
Oct 9th, 2010 (2:39 am)AhhhAhhhAhhmen
Oct 9th, 2010 (2:55 am)ClarksoCote may have already answered but in case not, here’s the first link that came up http://www.solarhome.org/xantrexxw-4024inverter4000wgridtiedbatteryback-up230v50hz.aspx. I think most have a battery input/output.
+2
Oct 9th, 2010 (4:07 am)Systems that only feed power into the grid are generally called “grid-tied” or “grid-tied interactive” and the systems that can feed power into the grid or provide power from batteries or panels are sometimes called “grid interactive” (note the lack of the word ‘tied’) but there’s not much of a standard, really.
I have such a system; I use twin Outback GVFX3648 3600 VA inverters to power each phase of my house from either the power company or batteries (I have 8 8A8D AGM batteries (about 1100 lbs worth, ~50kwh (being lead acid, effective capacity depends heavily on discharge rate)) and/or the solar array which currently stands around 4kW but I have been working on expanding it with my own homebrew panel strips (made from thousands of little 2″ x 2″ square solar cells that are normally used in LED yard lights – some may remember that is why I haven’t had a lot of time to post for the last few months
).
Anyway, what you’ll find is that grid interactive inverter systems are more expensive than grid-tied interactive inverter systems.
In the case of my Outbacks, the inverterchargers (they’ll AC->DC or DC->AC) are more expensive than say a Sunnyboy gti unit. But not only that, you probably want to have a charge controller to actually control the panel maximum power point tracking, and you will have to have batteries, you can’t get by without them. If I go out and flip off just the battery breakers, the whole house powers down (when it is dark, anyway) because the electronics of the inverterchargers actually run off the dc supplied by the batteries.
Not only all of that, but the GTI units can get away with a lot less copper wiring in the solar arrays because they can handle inputs at say around 500V. My charge controllers burn up at 150V so the strings have to have more parallel wiring, and that copper isn’t cheap.
Of course, most people don’t attempt to actually power their whole house with their grid interactive units because of the additional expense of having to replace your entire circuit breaker panel because you have to insert the units between the house breakers and the power company meter. Usually those boxes don’t allow that separation to be made so you have to by a simple meter FSE (Field Service Equipment, catchy name) and a breaker panel that can be installed on its own as a subpanel.
Then again, it is totally sweet when the power company fails since the power in the house is never even interrupted. It’s an extremely seamless transition to the battery backup. This is a vast improvement from before I installed the system and the power company’s frequent severe brownouts were destroying many of my household electronics!!
Anyway, outback has a lot of information on how their grid tied systems work – wiring diagrams, etc on their website. For the basic picture of grid interactive, here’s their overview:
http://www.outbackpower.com/applications/residential/grid_interactive/
As for using a Volt battery pack instead of the lead-acid batteries, that would be great, but the voltage conversion would maybe be an issue. Since almost all the solar-battery stuff is designed for low voltage batteries, (12V-72V, with most being 48V or less, I’d think) the high voltage car packs would have to either be rewired to lower voltages or additional conversion would be needed to emulate standard lead acid voltages. Actually, rewiring probably wouldn’t be good- you’d need some converter since without proper cell voltage charge levels and care the LiIon could probably catch on fire if charged with a charger that didn’t understand that chemistry.
Oct 9th, 2010 (5:35 am)What a wonderful thread!
Over 200 comments, and about 20% have scored at -5 or lower (meaning more negative votes).
Some of you trolls (and you know who you are) are getting so stupid and obnoxious, that from now on, when I see your name, it’s an automatic -1, and I don’t read your comment.
If the rest of the group can follow with this practice, we could get most of these A$$ho*es to go over the the PrissyChat forum where they belong.
Good Riddance, trolls!!
Oct 9th, 2010 (6:27 am)To whoever started the 60-mile club: it’s getting way easier.
Oct 9th, 2010 (7:46 am)Wow. Just a little more than ONE MONTH until the official Chevy Volt release date. I’m sure we’ll soon start to see the Chevy Volt commercials on TV. I hope GM’s marketing and advertising people do an excellent job. I want to see the Volt become a huge hit.
Oct 9th, 2010 (8:35 am)Thank you for the thorough elaboration. I think you have talked me into relying on the gas generator until V2G options and older Li-ion backups are available. While I worry about hurricanes, other than that, our power is pretty reliable. You have obviously gone through MUCH effort and expense because your grid brown outs have forced the situation. My situation is not near as worrisome.
Oct 9th, 2010 (9:05 am)Dont forget it is the 60/60 Club.. you also have to achieve 60mpg in CS Mode.. and that means not speeding.
+1
Oct 9th, 2010 (9:20 am)I used to be upset at the “automatic -1″ mentality, but the way certain people have been posting, I’m starting to do that too.
join thE REVolution
Oct 9th, 2010 (9:38 am)56 -17
EricLG Says
Oct 8th, 2010 (10:38 am) .(click to show comment)
“100mpg + will be easy to get in the VOLT for most commuters. That’s double of any mass produced vehicle made to date! The next couple years are going to be very interesting.”
If you think that is enough to sell the Volt, you have not been paying attention. The Prius halved petrol consumption with a ~$4k premium, and to date only 3% of the US buying populace have converted. Petrol savings going from 50 mpg to 100 mpg is *half* that of 25 mpg to 50 mpg, and the Volt premium is triple the Prius premium. How do you think the Prius would have sold if its cost/petrol_savings benefit was only 6x worse than what it actually offered ?
Forget about it.
your forgetting one thing,
the prius looks gay
mabey this is why the volt will do better than your prissy
Oct 9th, 2010 (9:43 am)lyle have noticed in edit mode the text box constantly scrolls up?
am i the only one
stuey
-3
Oct 9th, 2010 (9:52 am)I am sure he is a knowledgable guy but I doubt he has first hand experience with the official PHV Prius. It is naive of you to take his conjecture and dismiss correction provided by those with first hand experience.
PHV Prius (gen3) starts in EV mode. When 1.5 miles range is left, it goes to the transition stage to prep the ICE and the exhaust through the exhaust heat recovery system.
Just watch the video I linked. There are 4 parts total over 30 mins long. About 25 mins were in EV mode, even merged on yhe highway. Then it went to the transition stage and finally to the HV mode.
Oct 9th, 2010 (10:28 am)Will the Prius PHV that will be brought to market in May/June 2012 have a AER of 12-14 miles? I doubt it. The delay in introduction seems related to the development of their NMC battery, which has nearly twice the specific energy (250 versus 140 wh/kg). Thus the same size battery as in the 500 test models could pack 10kwh, of which 7 could be utilized. That would give it an AER of about 25 miles. I know I am attempting to read chicken bones in a brown bag, but I think the possibility merits consideration.
-2
Oct 9th, 2010 (10:36 am)You’re assuming all 188 on this site qualify for the lease or loan. I’d say that’s not a foregone conclusion.
+2
Oct 9th, 2010 (10:40 am)Be careful! You two will get downvotes if you start posting facts!
And several of those -5 posts were 100% facts.
Oct 9th, 2010 (10:49 am)After 8 years of BEV’s (other than the Leaf) on the road, the Volt will be in it’s 10th year of production. Battery reserve for only about 5% (that would be the number of owners that will be charging twice a day for the 60+ mile commute) of the owners will be at a level that the driver will be considering who gets the old battery.
A significantly greater % of other BEV’s will have reached that point already. The cars that have the LG Chem cell without conditioning will be the ones to keep an eye on above the Volt battery.
So, what’s the big deal about the Volt battery going 50 to 60% draw? Even at that level, the battery protection is significantly greater than the current crop of proposed BEV’s. Even though the Prius uses a Nimh battery (by the same manufacturer that supplied the EV-1 batteries, by the way) Toyota has wisely kept the draw to a minimum and what have been the results of that? Perhaps Tesla owners will soon be able to chime in on battery degradation vs. time and cycle frequency too.
Go get a Volt, it’s the best investment in transportation you’re going to find for quite a while!
+2
Oct 9th, 2010 (6:44 pm)I don’t want to bash anyone here, but I believe no one here is against anyone buying a Volt because they simply like it or might meet their proper needs (valuable or not, it doesn’t matter). However, I don’t think these arguments are much valuable. Initially, the Volt idea was to bring a cost-effective and efficient car for the mass-market. I see an expensive, unproved substantially efficient car which will tend to be contained in a niche-market. I fear the initial contract with us has been broken.