Lear is one of the world’s largest automotive parts suppliers and has been mainly focused on the production and sales of complete seat systems and electrical power management systems.
Earlier this week the company announced it was the exclusive supplier of the Chevy Volt’s 240-v wall mounted charger. GM has yet to announce which younger company will install the chargers for them, but the hardware will come from Lear.
Lear recognizes the importance of taking an early lead in the production of parts for advanced technology vehicles; they are developing parts for vehicles from mild hybrids through EVs. ”We won’t bet on a technology,” said Jeneanne Hanley, Lear Global VP. In fact 60% of Lear’s patents in 2009 were for technology related to hybrids and EVs.
GM and Lear began working in a collaborative partnership to develop Volt components from an early stage. Engineers from both companies have met every week for two years.
From this relationship the following Volt-specific components were created:
• A wall-charging station and a travel charger.
• The onboard charger.
• Wiring for low-voltage needs such as air conditioning and high-voltage demands like connecting the exterior charger to the onboard charger to the battery pack.
• The “disconnect,” a red button attached to the battery that would need to be pushed if the car is ever in an accident or serviced at a dealer.
GM and Lear’s cooperation in the Volt program has been unique as well as critical.
“This isn’t a traditional execution,” said Hanley. “We’re only going to have one shot at getting this right.”
Source (Detroit Free Press)
Aug 22nd, 2010 (8:01 am)Price for the 240V charger?
Aug 22nd, 2010 (8:03 am)Is the charge connector different on every brand of EV? If it is, I would think that a standard one would need to be developed.
Aug 22nd, 2010 (8:03 am)It would be like having a Jet in the garage.
Aug 22nd, 2010 (8:13 am)I believe that GM has been instrumental in developing the standards for future EV programs, so whatever they’re using is likely to become the standard. Someone else will probably chime in that knows more than me.
Aug 22nd, 2010 (8:15 am)Off topic. I see a Biodiesel Extended-range Hybrid SUV is Winner of GM’s EcoCAR Competition. 60 mile range (1.3 liter) on battery and average 118 mpg. It would be interesting to know other details like how long is course. (to caluculate ICE mpg) Anybody know?–Lee
Link:
Read more: http://wot.motortrend.com/6652598/green/biodiesel-extended-range-hybrid-suv-is-winner-of-gms-ecocar-competition/index.html#ixzz0xL8pj42S
Aug 22nd, 2010 (8:17 am)“We’re only going to have one shot at getting this right.”
This says a lot about the pressure the engineers feel. Any component failure of the Volt has the potential of poisoning the entire EV market, especially for GM. Oil companies, GM haters (a lot of people have been burnt by bad dealers, lemon cars in the past, or by holding shares through bankruptcy) and petrol heads will promote any failure as a reason that EVs are no good or that GM has not solved its past problems of quality.
The Volt MUST be perfect! (and I believe it will be)
Aug 22nd, 2010 (8:21 am)That’s what the SAE-J1772 standard is all about. This charger will work on future EVs as all manufacturers have agreed to support this standard. Tesla and other early EV manufacturers do not conform, simply because this standard was created after the Tesla Roadster was on the market. The LEAF also conforms to this standard, so it could be used to charge a LEAF.
Aug 22nd, 2010 (8:21 am)Talk about diversification…I just visited Lear’s website. Seats and electrical components for vehicles seemed to me to be a bizzare approach for a company to take to supplying products. But at a second glance, pretty ingenious if you think about it. Build seats for as many carmakers as possible and call that the bread and butter. Then get in the electrical components side of cars which is a market that is poised to explode in volume over the next few decades. Sounds to me like they have their heads on straight.
Aug 22nd, 2010 (8:22 am)Baltimore17: Price for the 240V charger?
Free for the first 4400. Yet another good reason to not wait till Gen II.
http://media.gm.com/content/media/us/en/news/news_detail.html/content/Pages/news/us/en/2010/Jun/0616_voltcharge
I think I’ve seen that value of the charger and installation is about $2500, but I can’t remember the source.
Aug 22nd, 2010 (8:22 am)Lear, interesting!
How does this tie in with the recent DOE announcements about 4400 free 240V installations for early Volt customers? Two other manufacturers were mentioned. I recently had a partial 240V installation made in one of my southern California homes. I’m ready to go for that car, as are a lot of users of this blog.
BIG BTRY
Aug 22nd, 2010 (8:26 am)There is a push to make the SAE J1772 connector standard across all EVs such that charging stations won’t look like an octopus with multiple connectors for every conceivable electric car out there.
The spec as it exists today can support 120V to 240V charging. It will be used by the Leaf and the Volt.
GM has actually been ahead of the game setting this standard. Having a major manufacturer like Lear on board helps.
Aug 22nd, 2010 (8:27 am)You may have to settle for a Moller M400X Skycar http://www.moller.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=50&Itemid=58
Aug 22nd, 2010 (8:28 am)You guys new here?
Yes, there’s a standard, and the fact that it was hammered out in time for volume production for this first wave of production EVs was a huge deal about a year ago. Specifically, it’s the SAE J1772 standard, agreed in committee in July 2009 and ratified by SAE this January. GM, Chrysler, Ford, Toyota, Honda, Nissan and Tesla were all involved in the development, so yes they are all going to be using it.
Production lines started delivering the connector (plugs and jacks) in May, and I had one in my hands last week (looking at a Clipper Creek charger). ALL future EVs delivered to the US market will have this connector. Tesla will retrofit to it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SAE_J1772
http://www.google.com/images?q=j1772
Aug 22nd, 2010 (8:28 am)The standard is called IEE (standards body) J1772. This connector is used for both 120V and 240V charging. It is also used by the Leaf, I believe. Don’t know that all other EV’s use it yet. This standard calls for more than power connections. It has safety and integrity functionality built in. And many charging interfaces (the true charger is in the car) have intelligent controls primarily for the purpose of billing you via credit card. You probably don’t need one of these in your garage.
Aug 22nd, 2010 (8:34 am)I live in a single family house, but do not have a garage. Does anyone know if one of the manufacturers will market a 240V “wall charger” suitable to mount on a wall outside of the house?
Aug 22nd, 2010 (8:37 am)Thanks for the extended update.
Aug 22nd, 2010 (8:38 am)I think we should do everything we can stop the myth that a charging station is required.
I met a businessman in charge of over 300 offices for a major rental chain and he told me they had X hundred Volts on order (nationally), but that they required $2500 charging stations. This $2500 he thought was going to be a deal breaker for many of the offices.
When I informed him that the charging station was not a requirement, he was quite interested and very happy.
Telling normal folks that on top of the bloated premium just to purchase an EV they have to spend thousands on a specialized charging station is major wet blanket.
Hopefully either the myth will be quelled or at least options in the low hundreds will quickly emerge.
Aug 22nd, 2010 (8:42 am)Sorry, SAE J1772.
Aug 22nd, 2010 (8:47 am)Unfortunately, I’ll be getting my Volt in November, 2011, long after the free supply of 240V chargers is exhausted. I was hoping for a price in the hundreds of dollars (not including installation), especially since the 120V charger is a viable alternative for the overnight hours when the local utility drops electric rates. Heck, for $2,500, you can buy a kitchen range (high voltage) and a Blu-Ray player (high technology), get it all installed and still have a thousand bucks left over.
Aug 22nd, 2010 (8:53 am)The $2500 figure comes from http://gm-volt.com/2010/08/15/detroit-utility-company-announces-special-electric-car-rates-and-free-chargers/
This price included a dedicated meter. It is the meter and its separate supply that cost the majority of the money. The charger itself should be cheap and individuals and companies will have to decide if the separate meter is beneficial, it is not required.
Aug 22nd, 2010 (8:54 am)No official price on the charger. $500 has been mentioned.
A standard 120V outlet will work fine for me. Most days the Volt will be brought back with 1/4 charge remaining. And will require just 4 or 5 hours to return to full. Still trying to get my head around not having to stop for gas a couple times a week ($50).
=D-Volt
Aug 22nd, 2010 (9:07 am)Just get a dedicated outlet installed. It will cost you somewhere between $75 and $250.
Then use the included travel charge cable.
If you want to get fancy later then the charging station can be wired in place of the dedicated outlet. (after they come down to $200 or less)
I’ll be getting this done soon in anticipation of getting my Volt. I will post the details here so that others can benefit.
Aug 22nd, 2010 (9:14 am)Even in the unlikely event that they don’t “get it right” the first time, adapters should be reasonably cheap to produce.
Aug 22nd, 2010 (9:24 am)Couple of comments here touched on standards wall outlet being fine for them.
Which I would like to hear more about.
If you can get a full charge in 12 hours, and you have an ER generator on board for those few occassions you are going to travel over 40 miles in a day…..
….why do you really need a 240?
Home by 7pm, out door in the morning at 7am–is that a normal commute for most people?
For the few times a month you might be out til 10pm, is a 240 worth $2500 to get a full charge when you have that ER backup?
In my case, I am usually home by 7p or 730p, but not out the door til 8am or later.
Would love to see some other patterns that might or might not justify a 240.
Aug 22nd, 2010 (9:40 am)You guys new here?
Well, less than a year. So let me ask another dumb question. In the next year, I will be looking for both a home where I can charge a car, and a car to charge. Do I have to have a garage or covered parking spot? Any problem if I am charging in a driveway and it rains?
Aug 22nd, 2010 (9:43 am)Not to mention that a Volt takes 10 hours on a normal household outlet to charge, not 12. Makes it that much easier to pass on a level 2 (240V) charger.
join thE REVolution
Aug 22nd, 2010 (9:45 am)As mentioned before the vast majority of the $2500 price is for a dedicated meter, which is not required. However the benefit of the dedicated meter is lower electrical rates (see your local utility about this). It may be possible that this will be cheaper than paying higher rates via your standard 120V plug. At 13¢/kwh (my rate) it would cost $379/year to FULLY charge a Volt EVERY day of the year. Paying for a $2000 meter would not be attractive. But if your rates were 30¢/kwh, over 5 years this could add up to $4380 for 5 years and if the special metered rate was 8¢/kwh then you would save $3221 over 5 years and the meter would pay for itself.
Aug 22nd, 2010 (9:51 am)Clipper Creek already makes one. It is what Lyle & I use for the MINI-E. It is certified for indoor or outdoor use and the new ones now have the J1772 plug on them, unlike ours because the MINI-E was made before the J1772 standard was accepted. Here’s a link to Clipper Creek Website: http://www.clippercreek.net/
Aug 22nd, 2010 (9:54 am)Charging outside is no problem. All the new plug-ins are designed for it. I charge my MINI-E in the rain & snow all the time.
Aug 22nd, 2010 (9:58 am)You don’t need a garage and rain shouldn’t effect it. No different than a public charger really. Not sure about the charger itself. It’s a piece of electronics, so how it stands up to the elements will depend on the build quality. This will probably vary from charger to charger but, as mentioned, all chargers should support J1772.
The price may not be $2500. That’s an estimate for the charger and the installation. The chargers I’ve looked at cost more like $1000+. How much the installation costs depends on your house wiring and how much wire they need to run. If the electrical box is near the charger and you don’t have to upgrade your panel the installation should cost less. Just make sure you have the installation done by a licensed electrician so your homeowners’s policy will cover any problems.
Not sure how much the Lear charger will cost but it looks like a practical design. Not as cool as the GE Watt Station — which you most certainly could put in your driveway — but it looks very much like it would be at home with other power tools.
Aug 22nd, 2010 (10:07 am)This was recently answered. No, just as Christmas lights have no problem. The 120V charging unit has a built in pretest before juice flows.
GM recently stated that the Volt takes 8.5 hours to fully charge at 120V. May be slightly less time if no preconditioning is needed “…as in California”.
=D-Volt
Aug 22nd, 2010 (10:08 am)Regarding those willing to pass on the 240-v charger,
better to have it and not need it than need it and not have it.
Get it and you’ll use it, like on weekends or whenever. Also who knows about the future, but electric cars are only going to get better with longer ranges and to get the most out of them you’ll at least need a 240-v if not the next higher level in development at this time. Don’t think this is the last e-vehicle you will ever buy.
Aug 22nd, 2010 (10:12 am)I think the meter is a separate charge. Plus you might have the cost for a panel upgrade. I’ve been looking and the charger seems to be a bit north of $1000. The installation costs, which are usually estimated to be around $1500, depend on who does the installation and how easy it is to do the wiring — if you have an unused dryer plug in the garage that’s probably the cheapest and having the electrical box at one end of the house and the garage at the other the most expensive. Panel or service upgrades would be on top of this. Meter charges from the utility are often monthly and recurring.
Aug 22nd, 2010 (10:12 am)CHAdeMO: Fast DC Charging;
CHAdeMO Quick-Charging Association Officially Launches.
Aug 22nd, 2010 (10:15 am)For those who qualify for free chargers and installation, it should be a no-brainier. For the rest, if you have no immediate need, i.e. you are buying a Volt not a LEAF, it is better to wait as prices will come down, you will evaluate your personal needs, and may decide you will want to buy a more expensive one with higher power in anticipation of purchasing a full BEV in the near future.
Aug 22nd, 2010 (10:20 am)That will probably be available about the same time EEStor has a commercially viable product. Moller has been working on the skycar for decades now. Still isn’t on the market.
Aug 22nd, 2010 (10:26 am)Is this the same company that makes Lear Jets?
Aug 22nd, 2010 (10:37 am)When looking at the charger installation cost, also keep in mind that there is a tax credit. I think it’s $2000 but I’m not sure.
Aug 22nd, 2010 (10:37 am)If this is true, I may have wired my new garage incorrectly, since it has 220V coming straight from the main panel.
Dedicated meter aside, installation should me much cheaper in my home than in most. If the installer gets a flat fee, my house will be a windfall for them.
Aug 22nd, 2010 (10:37 am)Moller is trying to do a billion dollar project on a shoestring. That’s why his progress is slow. At least we know he is building something. All we know from EEStor is hype, not a single piece of evidence there is a real product.
Aug 22nd, 2010 (10:49 am)I just hope that Lear put a lot of thought into the design of the 240V charger for the Volt. THE CHARGER NEEDS TO AS EASY TO USE AS POSSIBLE. Plugging in your Volt is going to be a DAILY part of your routine you know. Plugging in your Volt needs to be “so easy a caveman could do it” … a la the Geico commercials
. So easy you could get your 8 year old to go plug in the Volt if you were in a hurry and forgot to do it.
One thing that aggravates the heck out of me with my electric weed whacker and my edger is dealing with the extension cord. Hopefully, Lear has designed the extension cord so that it is nearly impossible for it to get all twisted out of shape and tangled up. Lear also should design their charger to have different lengths of extension cord too. Some people might need or want the extra length for various reasons. Maybe Lear will make different styles of chargers for the Volt. Maybe they can make one you can mount on the ceiling of your garage with a long, retractable cord.
I also want Lear to design all their chargers so that it is very difficult to scratch the paint on the Volt. No sharp edges. Maybe they could make the outer shell of the charger plug-in thing “rubberized” or soft plastic or something. I want the charger to be high quality, durable, reliable, and long lasting too. No cheap materials or poor assembly. They need to last for a LONG time.
I want to make plugging in the Volt such a simple, 10 second task that even the laziest, whiny people in America won’t complain about having to do it every day. I also would like to see GM have some graphics and text on the dash saying “please plug in your Volt now” (or whatever) when you take your key out the ignition to park, etc. The charging system will then kick in at the time you programmed it for.
Aug 22nd, 2010 (11:09 am)Really? I’ll pass on the reminder. I plug in my phone every night without it telling me to. This will not be a big deal.
Aug 22nd, 2010 (11:21 am)There will no doubt be competition in the area of chargers and installers.
From past experience, I think you will be no more that $500 for the ‘charger’ and the install with nearby power in the walls. Doing a new run from the main would obviously cost more.
Since there is a standard and multiple competitors for your EV dollar, the manufacturers may be able to throw the installation in for free. With a lease deal, they may also lease the charge cable.
We also haven’t seen the last of government incentives. I can see where not sending people and dollars overseas for oil could be offset by incentives to use less oil.
The Volt is just the beginning. There are leaps in technology coming very soon. MIT and other battery labs are working overtime on the problems. Unlike GM with Volt, most companies will keep these details pretty close to the vest until they are ready to go to market.
Aug 22nd, 2010 (11:44 am)I don’t think this will be a problem. Many people will not go to the trouble of getting the “free” charger. If you’re in MI, DTE also has a free charger program available to ~2500 people. The DOE is actually putting up money for 15,000 free chargers…so there must be other offers out there besides GM and DTE.
http://gm-volt.com/2010/06/17/volt-owners-will-be-eligible-for-44600-for-free-240-v-home-chargers/
Aug 22nd, 2010 (11:47 am)I have a question I’m not sure I’ve seen an answer to. Let’s say your daily driving needs will be low for a stretch of days. Maybe only 5 to 10 miles a day. What is best for the charger and the battery? Should you plug it in every day anyway or wait till the EV range is all used up. Thanks in advance for the advice.
Aug 22nd, 2010 (12:00 pm)http://nissan-leaf.net/2010/07/16/charger-quotes-go-out-price-as-expected-2200/
Actual charger quote, broken down into components.
Should be the same for Volt and Leaf.
Aug 22nd, 2010 (12:16 pm)Remember folks, the term “wall charger” really is not correct. These are actually Electric Vehicle Supply Equipment or EVSE’s. They do not charge your Volt, LEAF, Tesla, etc, they just supply electricity from your home to the car safely so you can plug & unplug without the line being hot. You can charge the Volt from any EVSE that has a J1772 plug on it, which all new units now have. The cars have the actual chargers built into them. It you wanted to be unsafe, you could simply make a cable with a J1772 plug on one end and a 40amp plug on the other and plug the car into your electric range outlet or your clothes dryer outlet and the car would charge just the same. I’m not advocating this, just making sure everyone knows that you do not need a “wall charger” to charge your volt, LEAF, or whatever, all you need is a safe supply of electricity. On the road, you could pull into any campground and simply plug into a 30 or 50 amp outlet provided you had the right plug on your portable cable.
Aug 22nd, 2010 (12:37 pm)Most Li-based batteries prefer to be somewhere in the middle of their charge capacity. So, if GM allows 30% SOC to 80% as the typical range….40% SOC to 60% SOC should be even better for the battery.
Basically, Li-based batteries live the longest when they are rarely fully discharged, or fully recharged.
As Tom M mentioned…the “wall charger” could care less how you use it. It’s a glorified extension cord.
Aug 22nd, 2010 (12:43 pm)Ken, you should know that the power cord for each charging unit is different; 240 Volts requires a larger conductor than 120 volts. Go to this link:
http://green.autoblog.com/2009/08/11/gm-shows-off-120v-and-240v-chargers-for-2011-chevy-volt/
The article contains a lot of useful information.
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
Aug 22nd, 2010 (12:59 pm)If it is part of the same company that “Bill Lear’ ran before he died in 1978, [nasaman can back me up on this one I am sure...], one of the most interesting stories from aviation history was his development of the “LearFan 2100″, a turboprop that never made it to production, but the best part of the story was on his deathbed, he told his family to “finish it”. They had until the end of the year to do it, but it did not fly until January 1st of 1981. So the British Government stamped some envelopes to take on the maiden flight dated “December 32nd, 1980″. A really great story if you are in to planes and stuff.
http://www.bing.com/reference/semhtml/LearAvia_Lear_Fan?qpvt=LearAvia%20Lear%20Fan%202100&q=LearAvia%20Lear%20Fan%202100
Aug 22nd, 2010 (1:00 pm)Here in the PG&E service area, the “special Experimental” Time-of-Use utility power rate defines “Off-Peak” as 9PM to 5AM Mondya thru Friday. This is another consideration when deciding whther you need the faster charge time.
Aug 22nd, 2010 (1:03 pm)I really wish Moller could get this thing to work.
Aug 22nd, 2010 (1:06 pm)Sheez these things are not chargers, they are fancy extension cords.
If you are buying for the future make sure the “charger” you buy can support the full power allowed by the standard.. 70A at 240V I believe, 16.8kw, the charger in the Volt can only use 3.3kw as of now.
Aug 22nd, 2010 (1:22 pm)For the charger the magic words would be “NEMA 4″. That means the charger is rated for outdoor use. Clipper Creek, which sold the Tesla chargers, is now selling a lower power one for a wide range of EVs. AFAIK these are all rated as NEMA 4.
http://www.clippercreek.net/ClipperCreek%20Products%20v05.htm
Aug 22nd, 2010 (1:28 pm)Yeah, you’re right they’re not really chargers. But they do have to have a pilot signal that tells the vehicle how much power is being delivered (8A through 80A). So there’s more to it than an extension cord. Or maybe that’s the “fancy part” you referred to.
Some EVSE units may have a fixed current. Dunno.
Aug 22nd, 2010 (1:37 pm)Yeah I know. I’ll take the best “free” option offered. There’s even a chance for early adopters to get a free Coulomb charging station. (well not free, but we’ve all pre-paid for them with our Tax $$$)
My point though was that fear of the need for and/or the cost of a charging station is causing angst and therefore avoidance about purchasing a Volt or other EV. We should therefore use our limited influence to allay those fears. It’s simply not a requirement and therefore should not be an impediment for entry. (the included 8 amp 120v charger will suit any Volt owner and they can upgrade later if they feel the need)
Aug 22nd, 2010 (1:38 pm)I really don’t understand why it takes 10 hours to charge the pack at 120 volts. 8 KWhrs for 10 hours means means the charger is drawing at an 800 watt rate, or 6.67 amps at 120 volts. GM apparently has decided not to overburden existing 15 amp circuits in households. I wonder if the Volt can be programmed for a higher rate if you use a dedicated 20 amp 120 volt circuit connected to your home’s breaker panel. Lets say you draw the same power as a standard 1800 watt, 120 volt space heater, that is 15 amps. At 1.8 KW you should be able to supply 8 KWhrs in 4.44 hours. Since you may not want to wrestle with a charging cable capable of 15 amps, maybe 10 amps is more reasonable, allowing you to fully charge in 6.67 hours. In any event, you should be able to fully charge in a lot less time than 10 hours.
Aug 22nd, 2010 (1:44 pm)re: Whether to charge to full even if only depleted, I asked that question directly of the GM folk at their NYC appearance/test spin a few months ago, and was told flat out there is no harm in fulling charging daily, even if the battery is not fully depleted(or near fully depleted).
Aug 22nd, 2010 (2:45 pm)I don’t want to take us back (completely) to the thread where I discussed demand charges, but I will reemphasize what I stated there. This article (with illustrations) shows that you can expect to see demand of nearly twenty kilowatts when hooked up for level 2 charging. At $10/kw that would equate to approximately $200 on an FPL bill. And it doesn’t matter that you only did it for an hour or two. As stated in the earlier post, what keeps me off of demand billing at the office is staying below 21 kw. Note that this charger ALONE (with almost nothing added, that is) blows the limit immediately.
I was criticized for being the harbinger of doom for warning you all that level 2 charging changes the game for utilities. I am now CERTAIN of it. I now know for sure that I won’t be charging via level 2 at the office. I can’t afford to. Even at the sunniest, my office solar array puts out about 10 kw (57 panels- more than you are likely to put on your home). So I would still be sucking at least 10 kw from the utility.
My backup generator has 220v/30 amp output (and connectors), so I am used to thinking about these numbers (and breakers). This charger can go to 80 amps. If you think your ordinary dryer circuit is rated for that much power, you are in for a shock (pun intended).
After reading the specs on the charger, I will reiterate what I stated earlier. With EV fast charging, you simply draw too much demand for the utility to treat you as they have in the past. Expect changes and expect demand billing for residential customers with this kind of power draw. After seeing these numbers, I would bet money on it. And as stated, the issue would probably be if you used this kind of power at peak times, not in the overnight.
Aug 22nd, 2010 (3:11 pm)I’m just saying don’t hold your breath waiting for one. I realize he’s actually built a prototype. It’s similar in that he’s been claiming all sorts of performance specs that he has not yet demonstrated. I think he’s gotten has far as tethered hover tests. There’s not even a clear idea of what operator qualifications would end up being.
Aug 22nd, 2010 (3:18 pm)Sounds like an argument more suited for a pure BEVY and range anxiety. Not as critical for a vehicle operating like the Volt does.
Aug 22nd, 2010 (3:18 pm)I think they will still whine about it. Americans love to whine. It is easier than actually doing something.
And I can’t see me ever forgetting to plug it in.
But if I do, it will burn gasoline. After a few times of that, I won’t forget again.
Aug 22nd, 2010 (3:35 pm)jeffhre speak few words.
Well, I did expect someone to bring up DC charging / Level 3 / CHAdeMO, but not quite like that
Tom, you can help here by always clarifying that when you, an experienced EV owner, say the word “charger”, you are referring to the AC-to-DC conversion equipment that lives in the car. EV guys know that, but the general public doesn’t. They think of a “charger” as something that stays at home while the mobile device (in this case, a car!) leaves it behind, which in this case is incorrect. The charger is a component in the car. So if you’re going to invoke EVSE, then explain what a charger is in contrast.
That’s the simple answer, and it entirely appropriate for A) marketing staff aka communications majors to be saying to B) regular consumers that also aren’t EE’s or ChemE’s.
The more complex answer is that lithium ion chemistry likes to hang out in the middle of state-of-charge (i.e. 50% SOC), not fully depleted but also NOT fully charged. So if you are spending a long period without driving, like parking the car for weeks, then it’s better to NOT leave it fully charged. And I mean “better” only in the sense of “let’s make this battery last 15 years”; you can easily ignore this advice and you’ll be fine for 3 or 5 or maybe even 10 years. Charging and discharging to the extremes takes lifetime off the end of a Li-ion battery pack. Over in the Tesla forums they discuss techniques like programming their chargers (on the car) to start sucking power from the house only a few hours prior to their morning departure, so that the pack spends a minimum of time at 100% charge.
These are the kinds of things that those guys have learned over the past year or two, those of us are learning over the next year or two, and everyone else will be learning well after us
Do you have your units right there? KW or KWh? A utility is charging for a RATE (KW) not for the amount of energy (kWh) consumed? I don’t know what article you mean to be referencing. What you’re saying makes no sense to me.
Aug 22nd, 2010 (4:10 pm)See August 16th, Post 8 (I got +46 by the end of the day). Residential billing, until now, has always been about total energy used (kwh). Business billing has been about kwh and kw- how FAST you suck the juice. My point was that with residential customers headed into high power draw with EVs at level 2 charging, a rude awakening is about to take place. So watch out.
Aug 22nd, 2010 (4:22 pm)flmark
I am not good at electricity but this quote seems to say that the 240v charger in the Volt is limited to 16a and should not trigger the charges you are talking about. can you comment on this?
GM engineering specialist Gery Kissel explained that the 120V unit (seen right) has two charge rates. The normal rate is 12 amps, but if this causes circuits to break or other problems in the house, there is a user-selectable 8 amp charge option. The 240V charger has a 16 amp output, which is just over what the Volt’s 16 kWh battery is suited for. The charger has three lights to indicate that the unit is receiving AC power, if there is a fault, like a ground fault circuit interrupter indicator, and whether or not there is a ground present
Aug 22nd, 2010 (4:36 pm)For those individuals that would like the added convenience of charging faster, it will be an option if they can afford it. Since so many drivers in the U.S. have more than one car, the Volt can be used for a designated trip such commuting back and forth to work where its AER will suffice. And for those situations where an emergency does arise, there is always the backup ICE range extender. Affluent owners will likely opt for the 240 volt unit installed in their garages.
Since the first generation of the Volt is so expensive, the early adopters will be those affluent individuals who will be luckily be entitled to and obtain the free 240 volt chargers being made available through grants from DOE. IMHO, there won’t be a misunderstanding about this that would impede sale of the Volt.
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
P.S. I’m glad you were aware of the difference in the cords. Just wanted to be sure so that you wouldn’t end up surprised and angered that GM didn’t properly advise you.
Aug 22nd, 2010 (4:39 pm)I did not reference any Volt numbers, I referred only to the specs (from the link) associated with the charging unit. I would certainly have hoped that the charger was built with more than just the Volt in mind. 80 Amps is A LOT of current. Your whole house is probably rated for 200 Amps. It is unlikely that you will even have a breaker that big (80 amps) in your panel. You might not now utilize the full capability of this charger, but if you plan on EVER taking advantage of the full capacity of this unit, you will want the proper guage of wire and breaker(s) installed. It is the vehicle itself that will control the amps pulled and it appears that, at least in the future, GM is letting you know that the RATE of electricity you draw could be very substantial. If one can always manually limit the charge rate (which I hope), we might be able to keep the demand billing monster at bay- even if we do have one of these units installed.
Aug 22nd, 2010 (4:39 pm)Lear Jet is now a subsidiary of Bombardier Aerospace, a Canadian company that also makes the CRJ (Canadair Regional Jet) series of commercial aircraft. A different branch of the company makes Ski Doos, Sea Doos, and Spyder motorcycles.
Lear Corporation is a totally unrelated entity.
Aug 22nd, 2010 (5:04 pm)Thanks Tom. I’ve looked at the Clipper Creek site, but didn’t see anything about mounting or J1772 plug. I saw their EVSE’s on pedestals, which looked like something for a public charging situation. What amperage designation did you go with? If I remember correctly, the Volt uses 8A on 120V, anyone remember what the maximum is at 240V for the Volt? 16A? If that is true a 30A cord and EVSE should be plenty.
Aug 22nd, 2010 (5:20 pm)Am I missing something here? I have 240V / 16amp outlet in garage for table saw (it is 230V / 13amp 3.0hp) professional saw. I should be able to just un-plug saw and plug in VOLT, correct?
Aug 22nd, 2010 (5:21 pm)Thanks
Aug 22nd, 2010 (5:28 pm)flmark,
Idon’t know where you get your figures from but I think your on a wrong base.
What are you saying; you get charged $10 per Kw!?! http://green.autoblog.com/photos/chevy-volt-home-chargers/#2199019
No way the 240 Volt charger would draw 20Kw. The article I cited stated that the 240 Volt charger is rated for a 16 amp draw; I calculate 3.84 Kw. GM states up to four hours is needed to charge at 240volts. That would be 15.36 Kwh total if needed. I think you are thinking that the battery must be charged a total of 16 Kwh each time. But only 50% of the battery SOC is used; between 80% and 30% during normal operation. Therefore, 16 Kwh is not needed; more likely around 8 Kwh. I don’t believe that fast charging will present a major problem.
If my calculations are off, please explain where I went wrong.
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
Aug 22nd, 2010 (5:39 pm)Jimza, se my post #72 just after yours. I think that flmark has made a mistake in his calculations; I hope I didn’t
If you could get a cord made to carry the high current with proper plugs (j1772, etc.), you could use it to charge the Volt at 240 Volts but it would be dangerous and defeat many of the wall unit’s control functions. You should read the link, I gave to flmark. It contains a lot of good information about charging and the two units that GM will make available.
http://green.autoblog.com/2009/08/11/gm-shows-off-120v-and-240v-chargers-for-2011-chevy-volt/
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
Aug 22nd, 2010 (5:42 pm)Here is a quote from Gary Kissel about the Volt charging and I think it answers alot of the misconceptions talked about here. He also said that the el code states that you cant have a plug on the 240v cord as code says it is to be hard wired and the 120v cord will be 20 ft.
Gery Kissel: We’re looking at that but nothing right now.
Thursday August 20, 2009 2:12 Gery Kissel
2:13 [Comment From Rick Hearn Rick Hearn : ]
Gery, in the past GM has stated the Volt charge rates would be 1.2 kW at 120V and 3.3 kW at 240 V. The wattages in your blog post are a little higher. Are the old wattages obsolete?
Thursday August 20, 2009 2:13 Rick Hearn
2:14 Gery Kissel: The earlier numbers are what the vehicle is set to do. The recent numbers are what the EVSEs are capable of, which are slightly higher than the vehicle.
Thursday August 20, 2009 2:14 Gery Kissel
2:15 [Comment From J Rotten J Rotten : ]
Can you add option for TWO 110v plugins that could be combined to generate a 220v Quicker Charge. I can locate two(2) 115v plugs faster than one(1) 220 monster plug. This is call SHOTGUNNING !!
Thursday August 20, 2009 2:15 J Rotten
2:15 Gery Kissel: One word answer: No.
Thursday August 20, 2009 2:15 Gery Kissel
2:16 [Comment From evchels evchels : ]
while it’s not crucial for PHEV/EREVs, do you expect at some point to enable the Volt w 6.6kW charging capability, given that much of the public charging will likely land in that range- and the existing infrastructure is already ~240v/40a?
Thursday August 20, 2009 2:16 evchels
2:17 Gery Kissel: Hi Chelsea – The current size of the Volt charger is based on the battery size and recharge requirements. Unless one of those changes, we are going to stick with 3.3KW.
Aug 22nd, 2010 (5:54 pm)Thanks RDOCA! Glad to see that my calculations above were correct. 3.3 Kw is close enough to my 3.84 Kw.
What is your understanding of the quoted “about four hours” charge time at 240 Volts? If only 50% SOC is needed (8 Kwh), wouldn’t the charge time be between 2 and 3 hours? When would more time be needed?
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
Aug 22nd, 2010 (5:57 pm)I followed YOUR link. Seventh slide. ‘…up to 80 amps, 240 vac, 19.2 kw’.
As stated, for FL billing tariffs, you need to stay <21 kw to stay off of demand charge (the RATE of energy draw). Also, again as stated, this is the capacity of the charging unit. I mentioned nothing about THE VOLT ITSELF. One would expect that follow-on battery packs will charge at higher rates. Indeed, the Volt may be limited to a current < an available (and current) dryer circuit. I didn't even look at that. My point was about the big picture of charging EVs at level 2. If the wiring INTO the house is rated at 200 amps, it shows that 80 amps is A LOT of current.
Don't know where you're looking or doing your calculations; I just read the link you sent me. If you are putting in one of these units, it would be unwise to look at Volt specs- go for charging unit specs.
Oh, and yes, demand billing rate in FL is $10/kw. Not to be confused with rate of approx 10 cents per kilow watt HOUR for energy usage. For further discussion on demand billing, see GM-Volt thread 8/16, comment #8.
Aug 22nd, 2010 (6:05 pm)Don’t forget, with a Volt you’ll be working within a charging window of 8 kWh within a battery with 16 kWh capacity. Partial charges will be the only charges available with this set up.
Aug 22nd, 2010 (6:16 pm)The seventh slide gives the specs for the vehicle inlet plug; the 240 Volt wall mounted unit is rated at 16amps which gave 3.84 Kw. However , reference post #74 by RDOCA.
“Thursday August 20, 2009 2:12 Gery Kissel
2:13 [Comment From Rick Hearn Rick Hearn : ]
Gery, in the past GM has stated the Volt charge rates would be 1.2 kW at 120V and 3.3 kW at 240 V. The wattages in your blog post are a little higher. Are the old wattages obsolete?
Thursday August 20, 2009 2:13 Rick Hearn
2:14 Gery Kissel: The earlier numbers are what the vehicle is set to do. The recent numbers are what the EVSEs are capable of, which are slightly higher than the vehicle.”
The design of the vehicle inlet plug most likely provides for future high rate charging as discussed in post #74.
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
Aug 22nd, 2010 (6:23 pm)Good point LRGVProVolt, and keep in mind the cord and outlet won’t do the charging. The charger is on board the Volt. If the charger determines it is dealing with a dumb cord, no J1772 with communications link at minimum, it will default to charge at 120V 20A.
The article calls them charger,s they’re connectors.
Aug 22nd, 2010 (6:24 pm)You are correct, jeffrhre. Under normal operation, the Volt battery pack will never be at 100% SOC; it should range between 80% and 30% with occasional discharge below 30% when near that mark and you need to accelerate where the battery will kick in to assist the motor/generator.
Under normal circumstances, I believe the battery will last at least the eight years that GM has warrantied it. http://gm-volt.com/2008/09/27/how-charging-of-the-battery-works-in-the-chevy-volt/
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.,/b>
Aug 22nd, 2010 (6:33 pm)I think that’s right. I wonder what the roads will be like when there are a few Volts still limping around on 15 year old batteries.
Aug 22nd, 2010 (6:36 pm)You are not following. Forget the Volt for a moment. Forget ALL current EVs and look at what this charger is capable of. Or forget even that. Refer to slide 5, ‘AC Level 2 charging- 208-240 AC charging up to 80 amps, onboard vehicle charger (~19kw).’ You keep referring to comments that refer to VOLT CHARGING. Forget it! I AM NOT DISCUSSING THE VOLT! I am discussing THIS CHARGING UNIT and it provides for much more capability (apparently) than the Volt requires.
My comments are about how much juice your household is going to suck from the grid as we move forward with charging EVs. Better EVs. EVs that will have more powerful battery packs. And again, if you are making alterations to your household electrical system, it would be prudent to watch out for the specs on the charging unit- which AGAIN notes 80 AMPS!
Aug 22nd, 2010 (7:01 pm)Bad news for Dealers – Good news for Customers:
I just finished another training module for VOLT. It appears that the Dealers will NOT be getting their “Demo Model VOLT” for the showroom and/or test drives anytime this year. They will arrive in the batch coming out sometime in first quarter 2011.
Good news for the Customers! All of the VOLTs coming off the line this year (2010) are ONLY for the Customers. All of the VOLTs are ‘numbered’ and apparently that unique number appears on one of the driver’s 7-inch information screens when you start the car. That’s cool.
But DANG-IT!!! I want the demo so I can take more orders! I will have more detailed info on this later this week. I’m too crapped out to write about it right now.
Aug 22nd, 2010 (7:22 pm)The local sales manager said a Volt will be avilable to demo drive in November. “Not a production car”.
May be that someone at GM doesn’t want the public to demo drive anything less than a production car. Will get back to you Monday afternoon.
=D-Volt
Aug 22nd, 2010 (7:38 pm)From this statement it looks like this charger is not capable of more than the 3.3k
[Comment From Paul C from Austin Paul C from Austin : ]
With external power charge spots, like those coming from Coulomb, at what rate will the Volt charge up?
Thursday August 20, 2009 2:38 Paul C from Austin
2:39 Gery Kissel: The Volt’s on-board charger has a max charge rate of 3.3KW regardless of the capability of the EVSE.
Aug 22nd, 2010 (7:46 pm)The National Electrical Code does not allow extension cords for 220 volts. The connection must be hard wired at one end. (The wall end in this case.)
Your saw, stove, dryer is hard-wired at the device end, thus, meeting code.
As far as doubling the circuit usage (for example, wire in another box from the same circuit) this is also not allowed afaik.
Re-purposing of any circuit (such as an unused dryer circuit) should also be checked that it meets current code. In some cases, they used 3-wire vs 4-wire cable and/or the cable/breaker may be undersized for the new device.
It’s best to check with a licensed electrician in your area. There are some differences in code between different municipalities and permit requirements differences.
Aug 22nd, 2010 (7:50 pm)I went through the module for “Ordering and Allocation”. About 2/3rds through they talk about the demo program. Check it out then tell me what you think.
Aug 22nd, 2010 (7:57 pm)Wrong. Both Volt & Leaf have 3.3KW chargers. Nissan plans to increase this to 6.6 in next gen. Chargers are expensive as you go higher. Don’t expect 20KW chargers anytime soon in a car.
Most EVSEs coming out are rated at 40 (or 32) Amps. So around, 6.6KW.
ps : The high current that J1772 allows (70 Amps) was put in for Tesla – they will probably make high wattage chargers since they don’t care about the cost/price.
Aug 22nd, 2010 (8:05 pm)Demand billing is a business plan, not a residential plan. At least right now.
I think it is good that we are hearing about this, but, I doubt that this kind of billing will be allowed for regular Joe Customer. I sure as heck wouldn’t sign up for it if there were a choice.
Unlike businesses, residential customers can more easily regulate when they use power such as pool pump timers, delay timer on dishwasher, and scheduler on their Volt. Done with some thought, demand would never spike.
Aug 22nd, 2010 (8:05 pm)There are currently proposals to install very fast chargers along the highways at higher than 240 volts that will need components that meet the higher voltage; that is why the J1772 standard plug is a vehicle inlet plug that is rated at 80 amps. The vehicle inlet plug won’t be working at just 120 or 240 volts. It must be capable of withstanding the much higher voltage to create the charging infrastructure to charge in 15 minutes to give us the same time to fill up that it takes with gasoline.
You will never (well maybe) be able to charge at higher than 240 volts from your home.
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
Aug 22nd, 2010 (8:36 pm)The 120V charge time might be more critical if you’re trying to fit within the local utility’s low-cost time-of-use metering. In Maryland, BGE charges their lowest rates between 11 PM and 7 AM in the summer. That’s not quite long enough for a full charge at 120V.
In order to avoid peak usage rates, the faster 240V charge time would allow a “smart home” controller to start the dryer at 11 PM, then charge the Volt, then run the hot water heater up until 7 AM, all in sequence, all before the rates went up. Just thinking out loud here.
Aug 22nd, 2010 (8:38 pm)Michael,
The Clipper Creek units can be wall or pole mounted like you see on the site. That unit you see is the unit that Lyle and I have for the MINI-E. The new ones that they sell have the J1772 plug on them and will work with the Volt or LEAF. Clipper Creek was the first EVSE company to have a unit with a J1772 plug approved by UL.
Aug 22nd, 2010 (8:45 pm)Just because multiple companies adopt the same standard does not necessarily mean that the chargers will be universal. Cellphones are a good example. There is now a standard for the charging connector — but if I connect the charger for my Samsung phone to my wife’s Motorola phone — her phone will display ‘Unauthorized charger’ and will not charge.
Hope that isn’t the case here, but it wouldn’t surprise me.
Aug 22nd, 2010 (8:48 pm)Your coming through loud and clear, baltimore17.
Smart Metering will balance everything out.
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
Aug 22nd, 2010 (8:52 pm)I have been explaining that as much as possible both here ans on other sites. It is a common misconception and many people think The EVSE’s actually charge the car and they need to buy a certain one that will work only with their Volt or LEAF.
Aug 22nd, 2010 (8:52 pm)Thanks again. My last question was, given several references that say 16A is a limit for now, would the 30A CS-30 (continuous 24A) be plenty for Gen I Volts? Seems like it would.
Aug 22nd, 2010 (9:56 pm)OK thanks for the pointer. I looked at your post and I appreciate the heads up but I’m not going to worry about it until there is an actual move by a utility to apply that kind of rate structure to consumers.
Also, flmark, you would be well advised to read what I wrote to Tom M in comment 63. You keep referring to the charger as if it’s not in the car. You need to say EVSE if that’s what you mean. The semantics are a bit unfortunate but that’s how it is.
That is new news! Fantastic! For the first few months, I am going to be charging my Volt on a 110V 15A circuit that has a few other loads on it, and I WANT to charge at a lower rate like 8 Amps. I thought I was going to have to move those loads to other circuits — and really didn’t know how I was going to do it, since there was only one circuit in the garage. Hallelujah!
That is consistent with what some dealers were telling me a couple weeks ago, and definitely consistent with what my dealer (the one I’m buying from) told me. They are ONLY getting cars to deliver to customers, at first, no showroom units.
I am #1 on my dealers list, so my Volt is going to be the first one they ever see. I told them I would be happy to show them my car before I drove away with it
To which he assured me that they will not touch it (they lock it and secure the keys, he said) until I get there.
Getting closer!
Aug 23rd, 2010 (12:22 am)You suck the same amount of juice from the grid regardless of whether you use 80 amp or 40 amp service. You just suck it faster.
Having a group of people in one area sucking it at too fast a rate — which is definitely possible since EVs will cluster by zipcodes — is largely self-limiting because the local transformers will blow long before it’s a problem for the grid operator.
It’s also not likely to happen because it’s too hard on the batteries so the car companies will continue to limit the charge rate as long as they’re warranting the battery packs. While 6.6 kW charging is possible in the near future, much above that is years out.
All evidence points exactly the opposite way. If you were correct what we’d see are utilities charging more for Level 2 charging. What we see are utilities offering hefty discounts for Level 2 charging between midnight and 5:00 AM.
Not to put too fine a point on it, but if baseline capacity exceeds demand then providing more juice has a cost approaching zero, meaning that marginal revenue goes straight to the bottom line. Utilities are not so stupid as to look a gift horse in the mouth so what we’ll continue to see are time of day metering that encourages EV charging at off-peak times.
Aug 23rd, 2010 (2:00 am)Since several people have dissected my discussion in several different ways, I’ll pass on the issue of demand billing for now. That was an issue brought up to educate and hypothesize.
But I’ll reiterate one thing that seems to have been overlooked in every rebuttal. I stated that it would be prudent to base home modifications on the base unit, not the current charging capability of the car. If you are paying an electrician to come in and do this, it would be smart to pay for the proper breaker and wiring that you want to see used several years from now- not pay to have the job REDONE again several years from now. The base unit discussed BY GM in the linked article heretofor mentioned indicated that 80 amps was a possibility, to say the least. Therefore, do you decide to stop at a) a 30 amp breaker and 10 guage wire, b) a 50 amp breaker and 6 guage wire or c) actually get a breaker that suits this base unit and install, lets say, 4 guage wire? Hmmm. What will it be?
The choice is yours, but remember, battery capacities WILL increase and so will the quantity of EVs in that garage. Being prudent means to consider all of this before you tell the electrician what you want.
Aug 23rd, 2010 (5:48 am)It might be best to future proof the installation by using the largest gauge wire that is possible for your mains. It’s running the wire (and the cost of that wire) that is most of the expense for a new run. The breaker can be sized for the device’s expected max draw even if the wire is larger.
Your installation may also be limited by your mains. I seriously doubt that with an already-loaded 200-amp entrance that you could legally install an 80-amp circuit. Plus, most of the 200-amp boxes have a max 50-amp lug layout. You can’t even get an 80-amp breaker for them.
As usual, it’s difficult to see into the future. Spending a bunch of money for oversized wire may turn out to be a waste if a separate meter is required in the future, for example.
Right now, it’s hard to believe that we will need over 40 amps in the near future. Since I already have a 50-amp circuit (left by replacing electric range with gas) with correctly sized wire I’ll probably re-purpose that.
Practical needs may come first.
Aug 23rd, 2010 (6:11 am)You have not wired your garage incorrectly, the separate meter is optional, and for the Volt generally not a good investment. Many have suggested charger prices of $1000+. These are for higher power, and generally out door capable, I think the one in this article will be about $300 and you will be able to wire it directly to your 220v wiring you have installed.
Aug 23rd, 2010 (6:16 am)Excellent advice. +1
Aug 23rd, 2010 (10:23 am)The cost of doing all the changes is not the same. To put in a 40 amp breaker and circuit using an existing panel costs less. If you want to put a 100A subpanel it will be an order of magnitude more expensive.
For most people 40Amp breaker would be the sweet spot (which allows for double the charging rate the current cars use). If you are going to need a subpanel than putting a 100 amp panel with whatever breaker is useful. BTW, code will dictate the breaker size depending on what the EVSE is set for.
Aug 23rd, 2010 (12:08 pm)Significantly more the than 120V charger (g).
Be well,
Tagamet
Aug 23rd, 2010 (4:10 pm)I’d bet you’ll get more orders than can possibly be filled. There will not be any marketing
or sales “workload” for you to sell any Volt that comes in.
Thanks so much for your very important information. This really is the highlight of the
thread nowadays.
Thanks again.
Aug 28th, 2010 (6:17 am)There is this myth that charging stations are not needed for the Volt. Because large batteries can not quick charge and the Volt’s battery most definitely can not be quick charged off a standard 20A single phase outlet, the Volt will need to be plugged in whenever possible.
I’m sorry, but the reality is that a $40k car is not going to be added onto by most people. There is no return on investment at this price. Without a place to plug in, the Volt concept is an abysmal one. Worse, people are
arguing that the Volt shouldn’t be plugged in during peak hours in the daytime. Oops!
The only Volt concept that makes any sense at all is the Hydrogen Fuel Cell Volt.
1) Steven Chu will be gone eventually and the next administration is probably going to be serious about hydrogen.
2) Plasma Kinetics since 2008 has probably solved the hydrogen storage problem.
3) Lithium ION batteries do tend to be explosive and this has been a problem for the U.S. military which needs a
lot of electrical power on Humvees.
4) Only hydrogen refueling, not recharging, can be accomplished in a matter of minutes.
5) It is not practical to have an outlet for every American with a Volt to plug it in: at home, at the grocery store, at
work, etcetera.
6) Seattle officials tried modifying Prius’es to achieve the so called 150 mpg only to achieve a third of that.
Why should I believe inflated 230 mpg claims?
7) Take all the natural gas that is wasted and use it to produce hydrogen, that will be good for the environment.
9) Moore’s law does not apply to batteries, and it is about to fail for processor chips.
10) Gasoline/diesel are so 20th century.