I hope you enjoyed your July 4th celebrations, I know I did. Along with several GM-Volt readers we joined the Volt and members of it’s marketing team for a BBQ and scenic view of the NYC Macy’s fireworks show over the Hudson River. Thank you GM!
As the picture above attests to, the Volt made it there, all the way from Austin Texas, 1776 miles. Seeing the Volt on the rooftop of Pier 92 with the fireworks going off behind it was an awesome display indeed.
The Volt set off from Austin Texas on July 1st around 3PM Eastern time and arrived in New York City at Noon on July 4th, a little under 3 days. The car was driven almost exclusively by a Volt controls engineer named Will Handzel, who said the car performed flawlessly, as expected. He called the trip something like “a party on wheels” with numerous stops along the way for staged photo ops and meet and greets, and some test drives, like the one in Gaithersburg MD.
Will was amazed at how many people recognized the car, and described a few times along late night drives in places like Arkansas, when cars would follow along for miles and with occupants waving in support.
I rode along with Will for the last 45 minutes from NJ to NY, I’ll have more on that drive shortly.
While we where driving GM has posted the car’s handsfree mobile number on Facebook, and every minute or so fans from around the country, though mostly California, checked in to say hi. Just about everyone asked for the car’s fuel economy, but Will declined to say. He still claimed figures are being finalized with the EPA, so can’t be released, and wouldn’t commit to the 9 gallon gas tank number. It was clear from the dash display, however, that a full tank would produce about 340 miles of range. GM has publicly stated that fuel economy in charge-sustaining mode would offer the best fuel economy of any vehicle in its size class, which for 2010 compact cars is about 26 city / 35 highway for a Toyota Corolla, for example.
Also, the team did charge the car two of three nights spent at hotels. In one case they couldn’t find a plug in the parking garage, in the other two cases they ran an extension cord out of their motel room window to the parking lot.
GM staged this Freedom Drive to illustrate how the Volt, although an electric car, is not tethered to a specific electric range as pure battery EVs are. This offers drivers freedom to do what they want when they need to, while at the same time for core daily commuting, using no gas just as a pure electric would.
GMs Volt marketing director Tony DiSalle has said “the best advertising for the Volt is the Volt itself,” illustrating GM’s advertising tactic, that this Freedom Drive embodied; grassroots test drives and word-of-mouth. This approach GM feels is a better fit for the Volt, getting people to see touch and talk about the car, rather than creating fancy media advertisements.
In contrast, here for example, is Nissan’s first ad for the LEAF:
Certainly the Volt will have its own traditional ad campaign, as will the LEAF go on a cross country meet, greet, and drive tour. Only the LEAF would have a much harder time doing the freedom drive, and could never have done it in three days.
+9
Jul 5th, 2010 (7:43 am)Hello Lyle,
How fitting that a car that may help the USA become INDEPENDENT of petroleum is featured today.
I continue to love you site and your mission.
Yours,
Carl Covey
Jul 5th, 2010 (7:52 am)If the Volt is like a Cruze then it is at the dividing line between compact and midsize.
A diesel Golf is in the compact class, and is rated a 30/42 mpg.. the Honda Civic Hybrid is 40/45 but that would not be considered a conventional car. The Honda Insight gets 40/43 but is a much smaller car.
http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/byEPAclass.htm
+4
Jul 5th, 2010 (8:01 am)So we’re still waiting on EPA numbers.
What does that have to do with the real-world data we would like to see? Is it so hard to state how much fuel was used in 1776 miles? Seems pretty simple to me. Just add up all the receipts!
GM. You only have a couple months before real data will be gathered out in the wild. First Volts will be delivered this year. Why the coy and frustrating dribble of information?
+4
Jul 5th, 2010 (8:08 am)Interesting Nissan ad…they forgot to mention that the Leaf will run out of fuel before Lance.
However, the Leaf is a good fit for several people.
Jul 5th, 2010 (8:11 am)Marketing?.. internet buzz?
+20
Jul 5th, 2010 (8:11 am)This drive shows one of the greatest things about the Chevy Volt – NO LIFESTYLE CHANGE IS REQUIRED! Drive as usual – anywhere, anytime – without any worries about running out of battery power. Even take it on a long vacation! Just plug it in when you get home, for 40 miles of all-electric driving.
78% of Americans drive less than 40 miles per day. They will routinely use NO GAS at all.
And note that the Volt COULD be your only car. Unlike pure electric cars with no range-extention, the Volt need not be an EXTRA car. It is a no excuses, REAL sedan that can pull full time duties as a people hauler.
The Chevrolet Volt is truly a watershed vehicle, and I believe it will change the motoring world forever.
+3
Jul 5th, 2010 (8:13 am)It would be fitting for GM to release all Volt specifics on 9/11.
128 Days and counting.
NPNS!
+1
Jul 5th, 2010 (8:16 am)Nice picture with the fireworks in the background, but a black car? Could it represent the Volt program is in the black? I hope so. Maybe next year we can see Red, White & Blue Volts. I guess low key is good with the limited rollout production plans. Unlike the Leaf GM does not want to over promise and under deliver.
-19
Jul 5th, 2010 (8:16 am)(click to show comment)
+2
Jul 5th, 2010 (8:17 am)Herm said:
A diesel Golf is in the compact class, and is rated a 30/42 mpg.. the Honda Civic Hybrid is 40/45 but that would not be considered a conventional car. The Honda Insight gets 40/43 but is a much smaller car.
I think I’ve heard about cars like that. They say they can’t go hardly anywhere without burning some type of liquid fuel I believe.
+8
Jul 5th, 2010 (8:24 am)I wasn’t aware that GM had released the MSRP and options yet. Please supply a link to this very important announcement!
+19
Jul 5th, 2010 (8:24 am)Here, Here! I would really love to see them post that info. Be proud of it GM! The Volt is a great accomplishment.
On another note, why do we have to keep bickering back and forth about why the leaf isn’t any good, just to have others post where the Volt comes up short? They are both the beginning of hopefully a wave of vehicles that will help the US become more energy independent. I hope they both do great and inspire other auto manufacturers to try to do better. Like how the iphone brought on a whole new category of smartphones. HTC, Nokia, Motorola, LG, Blackberry and others had to make better phones or they would have been crushed.
These cars are very different and while there is an overlap, have mostly different buyers. Hopefully both of these cars will turn out to be great cars for what they were designed to do.
+12
Jul 5th, 2010 (8:35 am)That’d be real depressing. I think the opposite. GM should avoid doing any PR on or around 9/11.
+12
Jul 5th, 2010 (8:36 am)Amen. Every manufacturer helping America end a sickening addiction to oil is a great thing for this country. Elon Musk is a hero to the Volt in fact. Wihtout his “can do” the Volt would not be here today. Lutz’ inspiration started there. May they all win.
Having served, I do note, Iraq has cost us lives and $3 trillion dolars after two wars. Iran is building the bomb using petrol dollars. The rest of the world reaps a great American subsidy as we protect the oil lanes for corrupt Oil Barons in the Middle-East while we pay a horrid price of long-term insolvency for our debts. Thiis car is one of the most important starts to a new resurgence for our country.
CHEVY VOLT: American-made, American-FUELED.
+4
Jul 5th, 2010 (8:39 am)The black onyx color is very nice. May just be my final color.
+4
Jul 5th, 2010 (8:41 am)If Volt came in a battery-only configuration (and there are strong rumors that this will happen) we’d be talking about Chevrolet’s BEV vs Nissan’s.
I think all discussion is good. Some of it is a bit tedious, but overall I like it.
-18
Jul 5th, 2010 (8:47 am)(click to show comment)
+1
Jul 5th, 2010 (8:52 am)Nice pictures on the pier. I think GM should use them in some of their brochures. Thanks Lyle.
BTW, when you got in the car yesterday, did Rob and Tony tell you I said hi? (I called in less than an hour before they got to you.)
+3
Jul 5th, 2010 (8:52 am)White Diamond Tri-Coat Volt SS with Tan Leather! ForTehWin!
+9
Jul 5th, 2010 (9:07 am)PAT says
“Even bigger Q is whether GM will manage to keep the quality high in future ..unlike its past ..only time will tell ..US automakers have been notorious for poor quality in the past .”
Dude!! step away from the hot tub…its 2010, not 1980′s-1990′s…buick is regularly in the top 3, Ford as well, many GM and Ford brands are in the top 10. hell I just retired my ’96 lumina APV, 320,000km, original plugs, exhaust, everything bu tht brakes, tires oil (usual change outs) and 1 wheel bearing. Still passes emissions testing here in Ontario, and safety check.
this is not unusual experience (for me) and the reason I only buy Chevy’s Nothing I have ever owned has matched the durability (and I have owned GM, Chrysler, Ford, 1 honde and 1 toyota) Everyone has different experience, but I have also found that a lot of younger people I know, say that BS, but have NEVER owned one. yet love my Equinox, wondering who makes it and when I say Chevy, they are in Disbelief..and I mean total disbelief.
get with the program…
+7
Jul 5th, 2010 (9:13 am)Pat,
You may want to look at your statistics, but 2010 was the year for American car quality. Check this article out..[http://autos.yahoo.com/articles/autos_content_landing_pages/1468/highest-quality-cars-of-2010/]
“But it may be shocking to hear that in 2010 the world’s most reliable cars don’t come from Europe: They’re straight out of Detroit, Mich. For the first time ever, domestic brands as a whole earned higher initial quality scores than imports in JD Power’s 2010 vehicle dependability study.” (Hannah Elliott commenting on JD Power’s vehicle dependibility study.)
+4
Jul 5th, 2010 (9:14 am)This post should be the basis of the Ad campaign for the VOLT.
M-Guy’s comment about “NO LIFESTYLE CHANGE IS REQUIRED!” is a powerful statement to the average buyer while at the same time lets them reduce the use of oil and use electricity.
That kind of an AD would interest more folks to come to the dealership to check the on VOLT.
GM needs to be ready to build a lot of these cars at a reasonable price. They will “own” the electric car market for a long time.
+2
Jul 5th, 2010 (9:25 am)The car was driven almost exclusively by a Volt controls engineer named Wes Handzel, who said the car performed flawlessly, as expected.
So when will GM let us start having some of this fun?
Jul 5th, 2010 (9:32 am)Now it’s time to set an electric car speed record from NY to LA. See how well the Leaf would fare in that…
+2
Jul 5th, 2010 (9:33 am)Ditto thanks to GM for a great party on the pier. Thanks especially to Rob Peterson for his depth of knowledge and unflappable enthusiasm in answering any and all questions.
Point of clarification: the Volt wasn’t black. It was a very deep metalic gray that showed flecks of blue and gold in the sunlight. And it looked gooooood in the professional lighting on the pier.
A great reason to spend two days in NYC.
Jul 5th, 2010 (9:37 am)Thanks for the clarification. I kept looking at the pictures on posterous and said to my self, that can’t be black. If it’s the official Volt color, it’s called Cyber Gray Metallic.
Jul 5th, 2010 (9:46 am)Found this 5 minute video reviewe comparing the Volt with the Leaf:
http://reviews.cnet.com/8301-13746_7-20009445-48.html
think folks will find it interesting.
The only thing it got wrong was not realising the Leaf seats 5 (at a squeeze probably) and the Volt 4.
+5
Jul 5th, 2010 (9:47 am)Excllent time!
Will post more from home
Tagamet
Jul 5th, 2010 (9:53 am)Amen to the comments above. Did I detect a bit of “split personality” from Pat? It’s OK. As stated above, the Volt is it’s best spokesperson.
Last night I posted that I had just read an email from my Chevy salesperson. The indications are that they will be ordering the first batch of Volt’s sometime in September.
And yes, I don’t think that we politicize 9/11, but wouldn’t it be fitting if the first orders are placed on 9/12?
I too wish the Leaf well, but want it not at the expense of the Volt.
I liked the Lance Armstrong ad. Had no idea how they would tie him to the Leaf, but that was cool.
Jul 5th, 2010 (9:54 am)Slave To OPEC said:
Now it’s time to set an electric car speed record from NY to LA. See how well the Leaf would fare in that…
I was thinking the only thing better than just a good MPG figure for the trip, would be also getting a couple of speeding tickets along the way.
+1
Jul 5th, 2010 (10:08 am)The Volt got around 30 mpg or less driving at 70 mph. That’s why they don’t want to give out the data. Now, they may be worried about that or embarrassed but they should not be! That is fantastic what they did. You can drive that EV anywhere for a long as you wish. Infrastructure chicken and the egg situation solved. Don’t forget that you can stay warm in the cold places and cool in the desert. Fantastic!
Most of the time you are in pure EV mode. In the city, at the stop light, etc. Only on the highway will the ICE be used extensively. Hey, you shouldn’t be on there that much anyway. We need to cut petroleum use. Move closer to where you need to be.
Oh, did you get the weekend news? The Saudi King proclaimed that they are not going to do any more petroleum exploration so they can save the resources for future generations. It sounds like a save wealth move when in fact, it’s a save face move. They are at their peak and they have to let us down easy.
So, get your Volt and enjoy.
Jul 5th, 2010 (10:15 am)Spectacular pictures today!
-13
Jul 5th, 2010 (10:18 am)(click to show comment)
-13
Jul 5th, 2010 (10:18 am)(click to show comment)
+2
Jul 5th, 2010 (10:22 am)I want my VOLT in a YELLOW Color.
A story from the Netherlands states cars painted YELLOW are less likely to be stolen. Assuming my Yellow VOLT does not get repainted, I could sleep at night knowing it would be there in the morning. ( I would pass on getting a pink VOLT”) :+}
“If you’re looking to keep your car out of the hands of thieves, try getting a paint job. A new study based on automobile data from the Netherlands suggests cars painted in bright, unusual colors are far less likely to be stolen.”
“The three most common colours – black, blue, and silver/grey – are stolen more frequently than the uncommon colours. Pink is the perfect deterrent: none of the 109 pink cars (aged up to three years) have been stolen over the last few years. “
Jul 5th, 2010 (10:22 am)They just aren’t going to say what the gas mileage is until they’re ready. I wouldn’t be surprised if there is even some deliberate misinformation to keep everyone (mostly competitors) guessing. The original target goal in CS mode was 50 mpg. Some evidence suggests reality is less, some says they made their goal.
Jul 5th, 2010 (10:28 am)The LEAF’s position has not been helped here by the trollish behavior of it’s proponents.
Yes, they’ll sell some LEAFs. However, current infrastructure in the US dooms any BEV to a relatively restricted niche, while the Volt is a true go-anywhere solution. No argument can make that fact go away.
Jul 5th, 2010 (10:32 am)Kind of a lame, subjective comparison with a lot of guessing. I’ll wait for the head-to-head driving tests.
+3
Jul 5th, 2010 (10:34 am)Since many want a compliment from me first, here it is… GM engineers have always delivered. That’s never been a problem. They crafted EV1 so well, to this day people still yearn for it… and yes, I was one of those waiting to buy/lease one back then. Fast forward through history to Two-Mode. Again, the engineers did a remarkable job. True, very few actually need a system like that. But squeezing all that into a regular transmission housing without any operational trouble is quite impressive. With Volt, same thing, it works. The 1,776 miles went without a hitch. Consumer confidence is reinforced by reading reports of trips like that.
Now comes comments about the boneheaded business decisions… To squander such a great promotion opportunity really makes you wonder. Why was efficiency data withheld? If a large majority of the driving population will remain within the 40-mile capacity anyway, what worry is there about a long highway cruise getting around 35′ish? Overall MPG will still be in excess of 100 for the typical owner anyway, even with an occassional highway trip.
+7
Jul 5th, 2010 (10:42 am)I got to drive it in Maryland and it is everything you expect it to be. AWESOME! To the bigger guys out there I’m 6’7″ and 350 lbs and I had no problem fitting into the front seat.
-13
Jul 5th, 2010 (10:43 am)(click to show comment)
Jul 5th, 2010 (10:47 am)Texas said:
So, get your Volt and enjoy.
You know something we don’t?
Like where to do that?
-13
Jul 5th, 2010 (10:48 am)(click to show comment)
Jul 5th, 2010 (10:49 am)Thanks for the review. I have a question. When you transitioned from accel to decel. Then back to accel. Did the system feel tight and solid? Or was there lash or looseness?
=D-Volt
Jul 5th, 2010 (10:50 am)Assuming the Volt is a pure serial, and using Tom’s simulation of the Volt’s electrically efficiency at 70 MPH = 3.5 miles/KWh. (FYI — Tom did the Carnegie Mellon simulation for the Volt, hats off to him, you can read about it at the links below)
http://www.leapcad.com/EV/Re-simulation_of_CM_PHEV_Study.pdf
1 gallon [U.S.] of automotive gasoline = 36.6 kilowatt hour
Generator Efficiency: Electric generator losses usually include copper losses in the winding and magnetizing losses in the core, plus rotational losses. Generator efficiencies can range from 93-97%.
Volt’s Gasoline Engine Efficiency: Otto engines have a peak efficiency of about 35% – in other words, 35% of the energy generated by combustion is converted into useful rotational energy at the output shaft of the engine, while the remainder appears as waste heat.
Assumptions:
Volt Generator efficiency = 95%
Volt ICE efficiency = 35%
Volt’s electrically efficiency @ a constant 70 MPH = 3.5 miles/KWh
Thus the Volt’s MPG at a steady 70 MPH is predicted to be: 42.6 MPG
36.6 (KWh/Gallon) x 3.5 (Miles/KWh) x 35% x 95% = 42.6 MPG
+3
Jul 5th, 2010 (10:55 am)Shouldn’t that be a comparison with Prius – also in the compact class and a hybrid like Volt, with regen and a battery ? Why compare to Corolla ?
-2
Jul 5th, 2010 (10:59 am)Wind, Hills, Traffic, Cabin Comfort, Passenger & Cargo weight…
all need to be added to the equation too.
+1
Jul 5th, 2010 (11:00 am)I went to two Chevy dealers asking to buy a Volt. One said, “I can do that”. The other said they have some coming (I won’t disclose the month) and that I’m on their list.
One manager asked that I register on the Chevy dot com site as an enthusiast. Which I have not done.
One dealer said how many Volt they will get in year 1. It’s enough to get decent local exposure. But not near enough to meet demand. Right now it’s looking like 3/4 of their list will be waiting for the 2012 model year Volt. Locals really want this car.
=D-Volt
+3
Jul 5th, 2010 (11:01 am)Had a great weekend at the ‘Chevrolet Store’. Sales were much better than last year. This week will be even better when Lyle’s website technical guy ‘blocks out’ our latest sludge troll who turned the weekend’s celebration of GM’s rededication to quality and innovation into a retarded rant. We can all do without that from now on I think.
-12
Jul 5th, 2010 (11:05 am)(click to show comment)
+3
Jul 5th, 2010 (11:06 am)Poor A Proxy …
Why do you waste your typing time and our reading time with this tired stuff?
Most folks I know do NOT take 5 ( even 4) on any trip in a car this basic size. The rest of your comments have been addressed many times before. Save your fingers and our eyeballs. :+}
Jul 5th, 2010 (11:22 am)It falls under the “freedom from range anxiety” as the leaf (and I think it a good idea BTW, just not for me) would take 18 days for the same trip assuming a 240 availability to re charge. If recharge is never an issue, @ 240V the best is 9 days…(assuming 10 hr recharge and 2 hr driving) Vacation spent seeing the local sights every 100 miles, or renting a car and using gsa 100%…
this trip exemplifies no range anxiety by doing it in 3, no issues.
This exemplifies also the “no compromise” offered by the Volt for those of us that the Leaf cannot accomodate on our daily commute as well as those than can…
If all you see is gas use…then buy a bicycle, NO car will do..as for me and mine, we will re-VOLT
-11
Jul 5th, 2010 (11:22 am)(click to show comment)
-12
Jul 5th, 2010 (11:25 am)(click to show comment)
Jul 5th, 2010 (11:29 am)Wonderful that Lyle and Tag had a great 4th. We got to join in vicariouisly!
Congrats. Hope that continues for you.
John, the data wasn’t withheld. It just wasn’t shared.
GM is going to publish that data when it fits their purposes. If the GM marketing guys have a brain, and despite some of my comments I think they do, they don’t want to release the CS Mode number. The reason they don’t want to release the CS MPG number is that unless you understand how the car works and what it means it can easily be misinterpreted. Moreover, without the EPA number (the 230 MPG number), it’s hard to interpret the CS MPG number on a stand alone basis.
Since for practical reasons GM doesn’t want to highlight the CS MPG number — it will be much lower — and since the CS MPG number isn’t meaningful in the absence of the combined EV-CS MPG number — my guess is we’ll see all the numbers released at one time. Just relax. The release date will be here soon enough.
PS: I’m sure the GM engineers will appreciate the well deserved compliment.
+2
Jul 5th, 2010 (11:32 am)Rooster said:
Thus the Volt’s MPG at a steady 70 MPH is predicted to be: 42.6 MPG
If correct, that beats my current 4 cylinder, hatchback, 5 speed stick car by about 14 mpg! If I drive 55 to 60 it still beats me by about 10 mpg. Not too shabby in my book. Plus the simulation may not take into account all of the newly developed, re-gen, battery assist, ICE sweet-spot, while cruising, stuff.
-4
Jul 5th, 2010 (11:33 am)“GM has publicly stated that fuel economy in charge-sustaining mode would offer the best fuel economy of any vehicle in its size class, which for 2010 compact cars is about 26 city / 35 highway for a Toyota Corolla, for example.”
____________________
Odd that HCH, Insight, Jetta TDI, etc., etc. were not used for the ‘off the cuff’ comparison.
/Seems like any actual efficiency data will remain top secret until after the IPO.
+2
Jul 5th, 2010 (11:35 am)It’s in there, it’s just not obvious.
The DC to AC losses are taken into account via Tom’s simulation, and are reflected in the 3.5 mile/KWh value. (In EV mode Tom’s model is estimating the Volt can trave 28 miles on 8 KWh at a constant 70MPH on level ground)
The AC to DC loss is accounted for in my 95% figure, that may be high but I believe it is doable by optimizing. You are certainly welcome to use you own values.
Obviously, headwinds, tailwinds and inclines will impact the MPG achieved. Real world results will vary, but I believe a MPG in the low 40s at 70 MPH is doable. I achieve that in 2006 honda Civic sedan.
-14
Jul 5th, 2010 (11:36 am)(click to show comment)
-6
Jul 5th, 2010 (11:38 am)Who said anything about STAND ALONE numbers?
This was a great opportunity missed.
GM had real-world data they could release in conjunction to educational information highlighting the factors (that are now finalized) affecting the estimate process. Applying a true example to the criteria upon which measurements are derived is precisely what people have been begging for ever since the “230 mpg” fiasco.
All that driving with no intentions to share any data. Hmm?
-14
Jul 5th, 2010 (11:45 am)(click to show comment)
-2
Jul 5th, 2010 (11:46 am)For PHEV, the only thing they should advertise is the EV range and MPG during CS mode, anything else (combined mpg) is crooked!
+2
Jul 5th, 2010 (11:48 am)I think GM is purposely avoiding letting any numbers out until the last minute so to put their competitors scrambling to match theirs. In this way they can have an advantage for a bit longer than the rest of the manufacturers and thus establishing a hold on the market.
The volt will probably have a 9 gallon tank and do close to 50 miles to the gallon, and of course do the 40 mile per charge as promised. But until they officially declare the numbers, it’s anybody’s guess.
+1
Jul 5th, 2010 (11:51 am)Do yourself a service and go back to clown school for some continuing education. They will teach you new techniques so you can continue to entertain the audience. I don’t waste my mouse clicks anymore to vote you down – you are so predictable.
+7
Jul 5th, 2010 (11:59 am)No argument that will satisfy someone that has never driven and EV you mean. I, like Lyle have been one of the MINI-E drivers and when I started with the car I never thought I would really be able to live with a 100 mile car, I did it for the experience and to bide my time until I could buy a Volt really. But after living with the car I, and so many others in the program realized that a 100 mile BEV is really all they need and there isn’t a big need to a complex infrastructure like we though there would be. The people crying for it are the people that never actually owner an EV and have no experience with them so they assume it would be necessary. I drove my MINI-E 33,000 miles in 12 months and I never even wished there was a public charging station, I just didn’t need it. I would have never used them if they were available. a 100 mile BEV will not work for many people and the Volt can work for everyone which is why I’m sure they’ll sell lots of them if they can keep the after-rebate cost to 30K. Perhaps to you and your driving needs you can say you’ll never be able to live with a 100 mile BEV(which will be 130-150 in 2-3 years) but there is way more than a “niche” of people that can. I’m confident Nissan can achieve their sales goal of 100,000 cars per year if the Leaf lives up to their billing especially once the 2nd gen Leaf in 2012 goes 150MPC.
Personally I’m planning on having a Volt and a BEV in my garage, both charging off my 8.8kwh solar electric system.
+1
Jul 5th, 2010 (12:13 pm)I think they may have released a very significant figure, with the 70 MPH figure. If MPG was less than 50, they would have driven 55 MPH, instead of touting 70 MPH.
+1
Jul 5th, 2010 (12:15 pm)70 MPH also kind or fits in with almost always having 4 people in a test drive car. Man, I can’t wait!
+3
Jul 5th, 2010 (12:33 pm)Amen +1
Jul 5th, 2010 (12:35 pm)Well AP…….
Most people will choose a vehicle to fit their needs. If there is not a better solution available for one to be in comfort while going on a trip then an SUV, minivan or full size van works fine.
Of course if you want to be a real purist one could take a train ( great MPG when one adds all of the passengers on the train).
Or to be truly off oil and be organic get a big wagon with oxen. Many people did that on the Oregon Trail and they did not use a drop of oil or gasoline to travel. Granted comfort might be a challenge.
You will note in this post no Leaf or VOLT was slammed. People should pick the car that fits their interests and needs. :+}
Jul 5th, 2010 (12:49 pm)Just wanted to share:
I’m in northern New Jersey and just put a deposit down to get on a list for the Volt. They contacted Chevy while I was there to see how many their dealership was being allocated. They are getting 8 Volts, and I’m 2nd on the list! So excited! They have your register with the official interest list so they can send you updates.
+1
Jul 5th, 2010 (1:10 pm)Well said…What particularly impressed me was the fact that the Volt team was able to plug in their car overnight in two of the three motels they stayed in.
I was curious as to whether these arrangements had been somewhat difficult for the GM team to make or perhaps were quite easy. For example, was a small tip or fee offerred as a courtesy in exchange for the privalege of pluggin in?
My feeling is that when EERV use becomes much more widespread (say 2014-’16?), that such motel/hotel plug-in services will start to become more routine; therefore, similar cross-country trips such as this might result in eventually close to 100% of the motels along the way providing plug-in capability–perhaps metered, or maybe as a courtesy/promotion.
Furthermore, I believe that plug-in capability will become fairly widespread in shopping malls.
I feel that this is one area of the infrastructure debate which hasn’t received sufficient attention.
Clearly though, today’s article as a whole, further underscores the proposition that the Volt’s design will work as a car for absolutely EVERYONE.
Best Regards, George, Sudbury, Canada…go Volt!!
Jul 5th, 2010 (1:22 pm)I don’t think this accurately states the case. First of all, do you have any reason to think the EPA has finalized the methodology for calculating the MPG for serial hybrids? I’m thinking they have not. If the EPA hasn’t finalized the rules, GM can’t really release all the MPG numbers since the methodology that will be used to calculate them isn’t official.
Second, as far a real world data, not only would “real world” numbers be wholly dependent on the drive cycle, it’s hard to know what that would mean. If you mean just what the GM engineers are getting that’s bogus because the engineers can probably get unrealistically high numbers. The only numbers that count are the official EPA numbers since those numbers come from real world data and, in CS Mode, will be based on the same drive cycles that are applied to all other cars. Ad hoc numbers just aren’t that useful. You can see that with the Tesla Roadster or many of the cars participating in the Automotive X-Prize. People claim all kinds of things based on their “real world” experience but when the tests are controlled and uniform the results can change dramatically.
GM would be doing both itself and the rest of us a dis-service if it released any numbers other than the official numbers. And the date for this release is not that far off, so what’s so hard about waiting a bit?
+2
Jul 5th, 2010 (1:26 pm)My bright idea for the day: Based on the experience gained on this real-world freedom drive, that of having difficulty plugging in at night while on an extended trip away from home, GM should partner up with a big hotel chain – say Marriott or Holiday Inn – and partner with the hotels to get electric charging stations installed at their hotels. Put them right alongside the handicap parking spaces so everyone can see them. Then Volt drivers (and Leaf drivers, too!) could be assured there’s a place to charge up. Perhaps there could be a way to reserve one ahead of time when making an online reservation when planning a trip. Another feature could be using OnStar and the iPhone app to search down the road while driving for a hotel to stay at the end of a day’s drive that features a charging station. How useful would that be? Pretty useful I’d say.
Jul 5th, 2010 (1:26 pm)Not so..three things:
1. EV range using the EPA’s hwy and city cycles
2. mpg in CS mode using the EPA’s hwy and city cycles
3. a sliding bar indicating fuel cost for the year (gasoline and electricity), for the average driver.. with the sliding bar as used in the Energy Star program.
The only problem with this is that plug-in Prius may not be able to do 1 since its limited in power and speed. It may get an NA in that field.
+1
Jul 5th, 2010 (1:30 pm)Amen +1 to the Amen +1.
Not trying to pick on parallel hybrids but the big question for environmental and especially national security purposes is: Can this vehicle run entirely on something other than gasoline? It doesn’t matter so much what the alternative is. If it can run on CNG or gas, great. If it can run on E100 or gas, great. If it can run on electricity and gas, great. If it just runs on CNG or E100 or electricity great. In this sense, the Civic GX is as good as the Volt or the Leaf. One may be a bit better than the other but realistically the argument about the Leaf or the Volt is like arguing endlessly how you like your eggs done. At the end of the day you’re eating eggs. Which in this case is GREAT!
-11
Jul 5th, 2010 (1:32 pm)(click to show comment)
-1
Jul 5th, 2010 (1:38 pm)That question was answered quite a few years ago.
Yes.
Some of the first generation Prius were converted to operate their combustion engine using hydrogen instead. Others had their combustion engine replaced with a fuel-cell stack. And of course, there are already E85 prototypes being tested. Replacing their engines with one tweaked for E100 isn’t that big of a next step.
Jul 5th, 2010 (1:40 pm)The testing procedures have been approved.
SAE J1711 is official now.
-11
Jul 5th, 2010 (1:43 pm)(click to show comment)
Jul 5th, 2010 (1:46 pm)I said Go Anywhere, not Carry Everything.
As for how we “always compare the LEAF,” you’ve just proven my other major point of the comment:
Jul 5th, 2010 (1:51 pm)Today … I urge everyone… take the time…and read this EV related article in its entirety.
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2010-07-01/how-to-make-an-american-job-before-it-s-too-late-andy-grove.html
Jul 5th, 2010 (1:54 pm)This is good news – as I am big, yet not as big as you are (in both height and weight). I bet you didn’t try the back seat out did you?
Jul 5th, 2010 (1:55 pm)Thanks for mentioning this. I wasn’t paying attention at all and missed the recent vote. However, it seems that while the members have voted to approve SAE J1711 — just a few days ago — the EPA is going to act “later this year”. So everything is still in limbo because the official standard is still not set.
http://www.anl.gov/Media_Center/News/2010/news100629.pdf
+3
Jul 5th, 2010 (2:00 pm)Interesting how no fallout happened for Toyota. They did exactly that last year for the 2010 Prius. It was no big deal.
This is likely related to the same feeling GM had of bankruptcy. The consequences of filing were no where near as bad as they had feared.
Also note that the test-drives of the plug-in Prius have also resulted in numbers being shared. What dis-service would supposedly happen? People have really enjoyed seeing real-world data.
-10
Jul 5th, 2010 (2:03 pm)(click to show comment)
+2
Jul 5th, 2010 (2:04 pm)If it was a no-petroleum race the LEAF would do very well. It is the only production car with a fast charger.
Jul 5th, 2010 (2:04 pm)Nice cite. I’d add this one to the list as well. We’re in a struggle to eliminate oil as a strategic commodity while giving tax breaks to oil companies to keep us using oil. Elimination of these tax breaks is step one in reducing our addiction to oil:
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/07/04/business/04bptax.html?scp=2&sq=oil&st=cse
Jul 5th, 2010 (2:04 pm)But they were, note GM said “in its size class”, so any powertrain goes, including hybrids and diesels as long as it is in the size class. Has GM stated what class the Volt will fall into?
http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/info.shtml#sizeclasses
Here is Lutz “size class” comment:
http://video.foxbusiness.com/v/3898239/?playlist_id=87022
“How are vehicle size classes defined?
The size class for cars is based on interior passenger and cargo volumes as described below.”
-1
Jul 5th, 2010 (2:11 pm)The MPG numbers for the Prius aren’t comparable since the methodology is the same as it is for a standard ICE car. So the standards are official and the MPG numbers can be released with the knowledge that they will be accurate and official. GM can’t do that until the EPA signs off on SAE J1711. If they did there would be many screaming that the numbers aren’t accurate as happened when the 230 MPG number was released. Has Toyota released the MPG numbers for its upcoming plug-in? That’s an apples to apples comparison.
When people start driving their cars you’ll see shared numbers.
Jul 5th, 2010 (2:12 pm)“Will was amazed at how many people recognized the car, and described a few times along late night drives in places like Arkansas, when cars would follow along for miles and with occupants waving in support.”
THAT is worth millions in marketing. Good job, GM. Keep it going.
+1
Jul 5th, 2010 (2:13 pm)The classifications & testing procedures are well defined likely won’t be altered at this point.
Reporting of the data collected is the part remaining, which only applies to the official estimates and automaker advertising.
Anyone else test-driving the vehicle can report anything they observe. There is no legal restraint I’ve ever heard of related to that. In fact, it’s quite common for automotive magazines to preview a vehicle, complete with their collected data, prior to rollout.
+3
Jul 5th, 2010 (2:14 pm)In my case, the Volt will mean approximately 80% cut in petroleum usage. The majority of my days involve less than 40 mile travel. For those times, I travel over 40 miles round trip, I will also get one or two additional overnight charge opportunities, and more than a few trickle charge chances while out eating breakfast, lunch, or dinner with a 120 volt charge that will add to my AER during such extended travels. So, for me, your rant “Range Anxiety = Dependence on foreign oil = Volt = “EoDEV” (Extended oil Dependence Electric Vehicle)” just doesn’t hold.
Volt doesn’t belong in your equation; it will elliminate petroleum usage to a much larger degree than you believe!
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
+2
Jul 5th, 2010 (2:16 pm)Lance Armstrong – “Innovation for the Planet, innovation for all!”
Well, at least he and others are going to start feeling healthier while biking behind EVs, especially on the West Coast Green Highway – all 1350 miles of the I-5 from British Columbia to Baja California.
http://www.wsdot.wa.gov/Partners/GreenHighways/default.htm
Ya, I know it’s not 1776, but it’s a start and at least no gas is being used!!!
GO EV !!!
+2
Jul 5th, 2010 (2:21 pm)Zach, just a heads up in case you didn’t know that the future in about 6 months will look a lot different on the West Coast Green Highway regarding the infrastructure. Bye bye, range anxiety!
http://wsdot.wa.gov/Partners/GreenHighways/electric_highways.htm
http://www.wsdot.wa.gov/Partners/GreenHighways/default.htm
GO EV!!!
-1
Jul 5th, 2010 (2:28 pm)IMHO the biggest real world shortcoming with the proposed J1711 standard is that it doesn’t provide for opportunity charing. A lot of people will have the opportunity to charge at work or between trips so even a 60 mile commute or a 40 mile commute at 85 MPH will end up not using any gas. IOW because the J1711 number doesn’t account for opportunity charging it overstates gas usage.
Jul 5th, 2010 (2:32 pm)Thanks for sharing your thoughts & experiences Tom. Where some on this site proclaim you can’t live with 100 mile range, you have proven them wrong by doing it EVERYDAY as others will in a few short months. Your actions speak louder than words. And they can’t even give you -1s, since you speak from experience as oppose to something dreamed up! Ha ha ha!
It won’t matter for long on the West Coast anyways, if even some believe the range anxiety BS since level 3 (26 min chargers) are going to be popping up like weeds every 40 – 60 miles …
http://www.wsdot.wa.gov/Partners/GreenHighways/default.htm
http://wsdot.wa.gov/Partners/GreenHighways/electric_highways.htm
GO EV!!!!
+1
Jul 5th, 2010 (2:36 pm)Strikes me that this is trying to make a screwdriver into a hammer. IMO range anxiety, like any new risk, is greatly overblown. As people use EVs they’ll figure out when it works and when it doesn’t. However, the Leaf is a commuter car. Nissan has been clear about that. Trying to make it into a long distance cruiser just seems misdirected. Tesla drove the Roadster to the Detroit Auto Show but that mostly proved that such a trip wasn’t practical. (As someone who has had bad experiences when states can’t keep toilets at rest stops open I can’t say I’d be confident in my fast charger being ready to go. Or if it is ready, that there won’t be too many cars ahead of me in line.)
Jul 5th, 2010 (2:39 pm)Hey Matthew, we’ll have them race from WA to CA in about six months, but no gas allowed. The Volt will be stuck in Bellingham!!!
http://wsdot.wa.gov/Partners/GreenHighways/electric_highways.htm
http://www.wsdot.wa.gov/Partners/GreenHighways/default.htm
GO EV!!!
Jul 5th, 2010 (2:42 pm)actually yes, as we love to shop.. carry a simple over night bag, and ship clothes home..easy
-1
Jul 5th, 2010 (2:46 pm)I say ok…but we make it an apples to apples race…110v charging only
Jul 5th, 2010 (2:58 pm)Big deal. Millions of people can’t drive on that highway since they don’t live there. We are decades (if ever) away from having a viable way to drive a BEV interstate.
Give it up. A pure BEV will not replace most family’s primary car in this decade or the next.
Jul 5th, 2010 (2:59 pm)If GM does have the vision to install 480V charge ability in the Volt, that’s their problem. Do you not think that Ford, Tesla, BMW, VW will be including the ability for their EVs?
Maybe for Gen 2 Volt they might add it?? But, that’s definitely a feature that will sell one EV over another. (Let alone the price!) Faster charge rates, less time waiting…
http://wsdot.wa.gov/Partners/GreenHighways/electric_highways.htm
http://www.wsdot.wa.gov/Partners/GreenHighways/default.htm
GO EV!!!
+1
Jul 5th, 2010 (3:02 pm)It’s not boneheaded at all. Why tell the public now that it’s 37 mpg highway when the EPA could independently test it and say it’s 39. Vice versa if they say it’s 38 publicly and the EPA comes back and says it’s 36 people will be mad at GM. It’s best to just wait and let the officials tell them and then they’ll tell us.
+8
Jul 5th, 2010 (3:03 pm)Woo-Hoo! The big boss is finally allowing me to take order deposits!
+1
Jul 5th, 2010 (3:03 pm)This comment was only to help the 10% of people that worry about long range interstate driving since that’s the biggest concern, not inter-city driving. The other 90% of popluation which 100 mile range is perfectly fine will be happy with their $2~3 already done morning fillup at their personal energy station (see garage).
http://wsdot.wa.gov/Partners/GreenHighways/electric_highways.htm
http://www.wsdot.wa.gov/Partners/GreenHighways/default.htm
GO EV!!!
+3
Jul 5th, 2010 (3:04 pm)You mean the secondary car ? Because Leaf will be my primary car i.e. the car I drive most often.
+1
Jul 5th, 2010 (3:05 pm)The question for me is will I buy a volt if I have to wait until midway through 2012 to do it?
I want to buy a volt over a Leaf, but that will depend on availability (and price). I live near Chicago, not a target market.
I wonder if others will be in my shoes in this scenario: an expensive and unavailable Volt leads me to consider replacing my hopes for a Volt with a Leaf I can actually buy.
Note: this is a second commuter car. I take my second car on long trips perhaps once a year.
Jul 5th, 2010 (3:09 pm)DonC, check response #105. I’m just letting people know there’s change coming and faster than people realize. I never thought that this would happen almost at the launch of the LEAF. Most I’ve talked to say they’ll concern EVs when chargers exists, so here they come. That’s all.
http://wsdot.wa.gov/Partners/GreenHighways/electric_highways.htm
http://www.wsdot.wa.gov/Partners/GreenHighways/default.htm
GO EV!!!
Jul 5th, 2010 (3:16 pm)Buy the Volt, you’ll be helping a fellow American out with a job and it’s just a better made car. If you read about the batteries in both cars you’ll see that the Volts will still give you around 40 miles after 10 years while the Leafs battery will probably be almost dead by then if not dead much earlier. This will really hurt it’s resale value as well. Start calling dealers and put down a deposit.
+1
Jul 5th, 2010 (3:18 pm)Actually, re read the link, and a race in 6 months is fine with me..looks like the fast chargers will not be in until sometime 2011..and as this is a government project…we can redo it again in a year…
don’t get me wrong, I like the Leaf, I just cant use it, but the volt fits me fine.
what I don’t like about the Leaf are the trolls..I will make apples to apples comparisons to the Prius, but I do not slam it (other than looks), same with Leaf, unless you take the negative connotations infered by how they do not meet my needs..in which case too bad. The prisu does not get me off oil, and no BEV makes my needs affordably.
the volt (2 actually) fits all my needs and reduces overall gas consumption 71%.
71% is not perfect, but is a damn sight better.
Add in a freewatt, and my solar, and I am lookin good (www.freewatt.com)
+1
Jul 5th, 2010 (3:19 pm)This was a creative PR event for GM. Hats off.
Coincidentally, I was walking the Freedom Trail in Boston this weekend unaware of the Volt’s Freedom Drive. 2.5 miles of hills in 90 degree weather, maybe I should have asked GM for a PUMA to do my own little freedom drive.
-5
Jul 5th, 2010 (3:25 pm)Hehehe, not too often i like idea.
-4
Jul 5th, 2010 (3:33 pm)The purpose of EPA estimates are to provide a standard basis of comparison, not to represent real-world expectations. That’s what YMMV indicates. People are well aware that real-world results will differ. Hybrids made that overwhelmingly clear.
As for the numbers, haven’t you ever read what it actually says on the window-sticker or just relied exclusively on the big values displayed only?
Again, take a look back at March 2009. Toyota shared real-world data then, prior to the EPA estimates, without any trouble. What makes this different?
+3
Jul 5th, 2010 (3:44 pm)Mitch, whether it takes 6 months or longer, the movement has started. It’s too big to stop now! I understand your comments about the LEAF and agree it’s not for everyone. I’m a city/suburbs guy (family) and for us it’s a no-brainer. I mean I travel 100 miles in about 3 days with only 25-30 per day!! And I’ll start each day with a full pack of energy. I only do 100 mile plus travels once/twice a year and it’s along the I-5. That’s why I so pumped about the I-5 electrification. Hopefully others in WA, Oregon, & CA are in the same boat, since this will help to end “the dependance on oil” along with EVs from Ford, Tesla, BMW, VW, etc.
I came here (GM-VOLT) for the same reason, but I can live with 100 mile range easily considering that I live relatively close to all my needs and with say 12 months, even the long range trips will only add about an hour to my travels, but with so fewer issues, repairs, inspection, replaceable parts, fluids, etc, plus with no side (cough) problems.
I don’t poo poo on people who need the Volt for their needs. Not one vehicle fits all, thus cycles, cars, trucks SUVs, etc.
http://wsdot.wa.gov/Partners/GreenHighways/electric_highways.htm
http://www.wsdot.wa.gov/Partners/GreenHighways/default.htm
GO EV!!!
+1
Jul 5th, 2010 (3:50 pm)You’re in luck. The GM rep at the Austin auto show in May told me that the Volt would also be available in light blue and bright yellow in addition to the first six announced colors.
+1
Jul 5th, 2010 (3:58 pm)It was possible because Toyota could take the methodology the EPA used and run the tests themselves. If there was any error, it would have been at most 1 MPG.
The EPA hasn’t yet decided on the test profile that will be used to come up with the Volt number. Without the test, GM can’t come up with a number. The EPA test could be so far different from what GM is expecting that the estimates could be off by 10′s of MPG.
Jul 5th, 2010 (4:15 pm)Personally, I think this is way too low. The point holds though.
I’m thinking more like:
230 city
130 highway
185 combined
The EPA drive cycles aren’t exactly real-world.
+1
Jul 5th, 2010 (4:16 pm)GM’s loudly proclaimed 230 mpg — was that off?
Chevy Volt to get 230 mpg rating
Ultra-high mileage for GM’s electric-drive Volt could give it a marketing boost.
http://money.cnn.com/2009/08/11/autos/volt_mpg/
-1
Jul 5th, 2010 (4:26 pm)Yes:
http://gm-volt.com/2010/04/19/chevy-volts-230-mpg-rating-will-be-reduced/
-2
Jul 5th, 2010 (4:34 pm)“As of 2006, the system has a total length of 46,876 miles (75,440 km), making it both the largest highway system in the world and the largest public works project in history.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interstate_Highway_System
It’s a bigger system than most people realize. Plus there are hundreds-of-thousands more miles of state highways where this system doesn’t reach.
Total land area of the US: 3,536,294 sq mi
The USA had 121,446 gas stations in 2002 according to the Census.
Dotting all this with quick charge stations every 60 miles is just dumb. Drive a Volt when you go over 40 miles from your house and it’s no problem.
+4
Jul 5th, 2010 (4:36 pm)John1701a said:
Again, take a look back at March 2009. Toyota shared real-world data then, prior to the EPA estimates, without any trouble. What makes this different?
Prius uses less gas. Volt has the ability to use no gas at all.
-7
Jul 5th, 2010 (4:38 pm)What does that have to do with sharing real-world data?
Observational reports aren’t representative of EPA estimates anyway.
It’s just documenting what happened under a particular set of circumstances.
-6
Jul 5th, 2010 (4:39 pm)Show me the data.
-2
Jul 5th, 2010 (4:41 pm)Yeah, I guess you’re right. Otherwise they could have driven the whole 1776 on one tank (and had enough gas left for another 300 miles after that).
/How do you trip plan with a Volt?
+2
Jul 5th, 2010 (4:43 pm)I like the assumptions… But don’t forget the one fact…. The “TYPICAL” American driver (not the good & dedicated engineers on this Blog) = 20% mileage deduction.
42.6 – 20% = 34.08 mpg
-1
Jul 5th, 2010 (4:50 pm)Where do you get that from? Prius owners are typically reporting BETTER gas mileage than the EPA estimates. Not *all* of them are liars.
+3
Jul 5th, 2010 (4:55 pm)waah, waah, waah. Show me the un-obtainable data on a car that isn’t in production yet. Sheesh.
All we can do is go by what is presented by the manufacturer.
40 miles using no gas at all.
340 miles total range using gas.
fill it up and go another 300.
50 mpg in CS mode.
These are the data that we have. Get over it.
+5
Jul 5th, 2010 (5:00 pm)A big Thank You to Lyle and GM for giving us the opportunity to see the Volt and get one of the best views of the NYC fireworks in the city. It was a great time!
Myself, along with Baltimore17, had the chance to ask many questions of Rob Peterson from GM.
First, Rob is quite excited about the Volt, but by the same token realizes its importance to GM. Although he would like to answer all of our questions, he must withhold some information, as they want to retain their competitive advantage.
For instance, he stated that the battery pack, with all of the completed testing, liquid cooling, internal monitoring, and other features puts them far ahead of the competition (by their estimation). They do not want to give away their secrets.
Regarding the battery pack, if you have cell failures, OnStar can report this, and even identify which cells have failed. In the early stages, you may get a new battery pack, but GM can also refurbish the old pack by replacing the bad cells.
The battery pack is designed for 10 years/150,000 miles. GM has decided on what they will provide for a battery warranty, but he cannot make that public at this time.
With 120 Volt AC, the complete charge time is about 10 hours. With 240 VAC, the time is about 4 hours. With a higher voltage, I’m not sure if he said 400 volts, and it wasn’t clear if this was AC or DC, but at this higher voltage he stated that the charge time is 26 minutes. A charger for this application, however, would cost about $15,000!
Not much to add about aero. I looked under the Volt up near the front wheels, and couldn’t see a belly pan, but did notice that all the components seem to be very well packaged to provide a relatively smooth bottom. Baltimore17 looked under the rear portion of the Volt, and did notice an aerodynamic cover. So it may be a partial belly pan. Rob would only say that the Cd is sub 0.29.
The Volt has 17″ wheels and the shiny chrome wheels as seen in the pictures are standard. Rob did allow us to look under the hood. The ICE was on the right side under a cover, and the drive unit was on the other side under the power electronics. No real news, other than there were six orange cables emanating from the drive unit, which may be the 3-phase wires for each motor/generator.
The Volt had proximity probes imbedded in both the front and rear bumpers, for assistance with parking, I assume.
Someone asked Rob if the Volt would sell for $40,000, and he would essentially neither confirm nor deny the price.
That’s the bulk of what I learned from the trip. Hopefully some others will have more to share.
Great talking with you Tag! Hope we get the chance to talk more at future events!
Bill
Jul 5th, 2010 (5:04 pm)Lat’s face it, you would not be hired by any car manufacturer due to your poor English.
-2
Jul 5th, 2010 (5:04 pm)Something strange, i like your idea to.
+1
Jul 5th, 2010 (5:11 pm)Dude — Take a chill pill… I was making a light hearted joke… WTF (What the f*ck)… Most of the people on this site, and yes most Prius drivers are going to get better than EPA estimate. I get much better on my Honda Fit… But I can tell you that 75+% of the people I work with get worse than EPA (TYPICAL)…. If you do not work or around those type of drivers, you are living in a statistically abnormal area.
+1
Jul 5th, 2010 (5:12 pm)You gotta lotta attitude there, Loboc, but notta lotta facts. You have no idea what the CS fuel economy is and the best info I’ve seen suggests much less than 50mpg. In fact, the worst case I’ve seen support for is 340 miles total range (recent GM-Volt.com article), 9 gallon tank, (ditto) (340-40)/9 = 33.3mpg. Fooey.
Of course, we can also speculate on why GM won’t provide real numbers. I’m sure it’s because the news is just tooooo good. Riiiiight.
Let’s see… The Volt left SA on July 1st and arrived in NYC on July 4rd. That gives them 3 opportunities to overnight charge the car, plus the initial charge, so they drove 200 miles or 11% of the trip on electricity and 89% of the trip or 1576 miles on gas (presuming they got the full 40 miles of range at highway speeds). If the Volt doesn’t do better than 45mpg in charge sustaining mode, the travelers would have used less gas by driving a Prius.
—
By the bye, that’s a pretty leisurely trip, by my standards, just 444 miles per day. We routinely do 600-700 and we’ve done as much as 900 in a single day. People who routinely drive long distances will not often do 11% of the trip on electricity.
+1
Jul 5th, 2010 (5:29 pm)Don’t try that in a 100% Mexican Ford Fusion, even I went up the sides of their bucket seats at 200lbs. Nice ride the Ford Fusion just hope the VOLT’S parts are not mostly Korean, Mexican or Chinese!
-2
Jul 5th, 2010 (5:46 pm)Top honors went to several Fords, Porsche, Volvo, Honda, Hyundai, Lexus etc, but not one GM product. This survey is based on number of returns to dealership in first 2 months of brand new car. Even the best got 1 per car. Would have been nice to know the severity of the reason. The only example they gave was for wind noise.
+1
Jul 5th, 2010 (5:50 pm)Like Lyle said, only 10,000 Volts will be available initially, small yes, but it’s a start.
Use the same comment to answer your point. Your total miles assumes everyone drives in every possible direction, although probable, is unhighly unlikely. Most drivers (90%) stay within 100 miles of where they live. Only 10% do not. Those are confirmed STATS that I only re-quote, not made up…
http://wsdot.wa.gov/Partners/GreenHighways/electric_highways.htm
http://www.wsdot.wa.gov/Partners/GreenHighways/default.htm
GO EV!!!
-2
Jul 5th, 2010 (5:50 pm)I’d have no problem running the Volt against the Leaf with no petro; as long as the Leaf doesn’t derive it’s electricity from coal, nuclear or natural gas resources.
Score one for the Volt…
-1
Jul 5th, 2010 (6:19 pm)Agreed. Nobody outside of GM knows what CS mode mpg is including me. This is the issue I have with some statements here. And yeah, I’m getting a little steamed about it. I’m a scientific person by nature. If I can’t see it, weigh it, measure it, then it doesn’t exist.
We can only go by what GM has told us thus far. 50mpg is the design goal for CS mode. Any other number is pure speculation.
The statement “best info I’ve seen suggests” has no basis in any measurement whatsoever. Wouldn’t you agree?
Jul 5th, 2010 (6:22 pm)Great news. May your order book fill!
People say that but in practice it seems very few people use the public chargers. Where I am there will be something like 1200 public chargers. The estimate is that of this number about 700 will never be used. In the past the parking place ended up being more highly valued than the charging capability.
The good thing is that the government sponsored infrastructure play in the select cities will demonstrate how important charging is, one way or the other.
Jul 5th, 2010 (6:24 pm)Ok. Well use the same comment to answer your point then. What is the point of dotting expensive charging stations all over the place if 90% of the people don’t leave their neighborhood?
It’s an expensive and dumb boondoggle.
Jul 5th, 2010 (6:32 pm)How can you just slip in that 50 mpg?
It’s not data. It’s a design goal.
Do the math: 300 miles / 9 gallons = 33.3 mpg
That’s clearly better than the 2010 Corolla combined 30 mpg.
-1
Jul 5th, 2010 (6:35 pm)Ok then I’m ROFLMAO.
The 75% of the people you are talking about are driving ICE cars, right? (Well, duh. There aren’t that many hybrid-electrics yet.) We are talking about hybrid electrics here, not old-style gasoline burners.
And if you make a light-hearted joke, it is customary to use a
or 
.
Lighten up your own bad self.
-1
Jul 5th, 2010 (6:37 pm)Nice report BillR. Thanks! +1
+2
Jul 5th, 2010 (6:44 pm)I don’t really care about advertising…. the VOLT will sell on technology alone. Keep the advertising money and put it into more car…. I’m sure some advertising agency will get millions to come up with clever videos and adds in magazines… but the technology is the what sells for me. Make sure it is corrosion proof and reliable… I don’t care about TV adds.
-3
Jul 5th, 2010 (6:48 pm)Much easier than you can slip in some speculation about 33.3mpg. That number has no basis in fact.
All the numbers I quoted are design goals. Not a single one has any basis in non-GM experimental data or even government data (ie. EPA). It’s all quotes from GM talking heads.
I’m amazingly on your side in this one. Why don’t they just tell us how many gallons they burned to go 1776 miles? Like I said up-front. Just add up the receipts and tell us. How hard is that?
+3
Jul 5th, 2010 (7:01 pm)It’s hardly dumb IMHO. It will allow all EVs the ability to drive across the state highway without using any gasoline. This electrified highway will be the test model for future expansion across the U.S. Be it a Volt, Nissan, Focus, or other EV, you will be able to travel the same way as having an ICE vehicle. NO CHANGE IN LIFE STYLE.
This project is a prime example of this administration plan to free our nation from foreign oil addiction. The electrification of transportation will free up billions of dollars each month that will help bring down the national deficit. Even a small, say 5% reduction in petroleum cost (5% of $28 Billion per month = $1.4 Billion), will help our economy by increasing the effective buying power of every family (translate effective as meaning dollars for America). The State of Washington is leading the way along with some other communities (Bolder Colorado and the highway from Phoenix to Tucson for example) to this transition to an electric economy. The funding of charging stations for the I5 highway across Washington by DOE with The American Recovery and Reinvestment Act of 2009 funds and the study that follows will allow the Administration to gain important data on how effective the stimulus funds are doing in moving our Nation in this direction.
IMHO, it is fortunate that this administration passed The American Recovery and Reinvestment Act of 2009 when it did. The BP fiasco in the Gulf was a catastrophe waiting to happen for which this nation will be paying the price for a long long time. Hopefully, everyone involved in the cleanup will wake up to the necessity to move rapidly with clean up of the spilled oil. We can not rely on BP to do this by itself! As I listen again to a BP TV ad on how “they are working every day”, it angers me when what is needed is a large scale deployment beyond what we are seeing today to skim the oil from the surface and remove it for once and all from the waters of the Gulf. NOT USE DISPERSANT which only destroys life in the water and on the bottoms of the sea. We need deployment of our military forces to provide the manpower for this cleanup.
http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Military/2010/0610/BP-Oil-Spill-Is-it-time-for-the-Pentagon-to-take-over
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
God Bless America!
+1
Jul 5th, 2010 (7:09 pm)My guess, (and it’s purely a guess) is that we’ll eventually (5 years — 50 years?) see charge stations scattered out on the highways in just about the same numbers as we see gas stations now.
With most of the local driving being charged at home and work, the urban charge stations might be at a ratio of 1 to 5 as to current urban gas stations.
/I agree with Future Leaf, the whole charge station infrastructure could happen a lot faster than any of us are expecting. Charge stations could come on-line as fast as shopping malls did in the 80′s — and would be less of an infrastructure impact. Some countries (Japan, France, China) seem like they’re ready to get after it right now.
New quick charger for electric cars is really quick
http://www.crunchgear.com/2010/07/05/new-quick-charger-for-electric-cars-is-really-quick/
+2
Jul 5th, 2010 (7:18 pm)Loboc, I would have given you a pass on this one… But
. Go back and look at my post on #125, I did use the 
… You must have either hit some bad hippy lettuce today or 
not enough fiber and are backed up down there…. 
Of course the 75% (in fact 90%) I know are ICE drivers. But the hope is that the VOLT will be a car for the masses. And the mass market is what the mpg is for…. So, I will stand by my estimate that the “Typical” VOLT driver will get about 34 mpg after the generator kicks in. You and Lyle and almost all of the people on this site will probably routinely get the Battery to output 40-50 miles/EV and then will probably gently drive the VOLT and get almost 45 mpg. But society is not nearly as good as you are Lobac.
+1
Jul 5th, 2010 (7:29 pm)You’re right Loboc! Lyle’s the culprit for stating that fact! LOL!!
GO EV!!!
Jul 5th, 2010 (7:30 pm)Word from GM engineering is that efficiency goals are being met. GM has hinted at high 40′s for CS mode. Have also stated “routinely getting 40 miles per charge”.
=D-Volt
+1
Jul 5th, 2010 (7:33 pm)So, you’re good with electricity derived from solar & hydro-electric generation?
Then let’s race!! Oh, when the cars are available! LOL
Below are the charge points that we will use for our race next year….
http://wsdot.wa.gov/Partners/GreenHighways/electric_highways.htm
http://www.wsdot.wa.gov/Partners/GreenHighways/default.htm
GO EV!!!
Jul 5th, 2010 (7:35 pm)Maybe a little brush up on your spelling or a spell checker is in order. “Lat’s” stop being so anal.
Jul 5th, 2010 (7:37 pm)Explain how that’s a win for the Volt. Bonus if it involves logic.
If the Volt is run on electricity only, either one uses the same ultimate fuel source when plugged into the wall.
+6
Jul 5th, 2010 (7:42 pm)john1701a and Loboc
You guys keep going back and forth on “Total MPG’s per 1 tank of gas” and that is NOT the point of the VOLT. Both of you should know this by now.
The “Freedom Drive” really is not the best example of what the VOLT is for. The true value of a VOLT is how many gallons will a typical driver use in 1 MONTH.
The next PR stunt should be for GM to pick any one of the regular bloggers on this site and let them use a VOLT for 1 month. Commuting to and from work each day, and charging it each night. And then report back how many gallons of gas were used in 30 days time.
My wife is burning 62 gallons per month average in her 2008 Nissan Altima SL, (and she has a heavy foot). She drives about 10 to 11 miles each way to work and back. On the weekends, maybe 40 to 60 miles tops in one day. If I have done my math right, even so she should drop down to 9 gallons per month… at the most.
That is what the VOLT is about, guys… Not just what you do on a single fill up for 340 continuous miles.
Jul 5th, 2010 (7:49 pm)+2
Jul 5th, 2010 (7:53 pm)Yes DonC, but that was the past. I think things are ripe for a more permanent change this time around..
http://wsdot.wa.gov/Partners/GreenHighways/electric_highways.htm
http://www.wsdot.wa.gov/Partners/GreenHighways/default.htm
GO EV!!!
-1
Jul 5th, 2010 (7:53 pm)It’s still a supposition, estimate, conjecture, or guess.
At least Rooster tried to back up his swag with a little logic.
Everything we have heard from GM is that they are ‘on track’ to meet or exceed the design goals they set and have communicated. Anybody else’s guess (including mine) is just that. A guess. That’s all I’m saying.
And my hippy lettuce rolls down hill just fine. Thank you for asking.
+3
Jul 5th, 2010 (7:59 pm)It’s REVERSE logic! LOL Tough nut to crack!
I-5 Electrification Plans
http://wsdot.wa.gov/Partners/GreenHighways/electric_highways.htm
http://www.wsdot.wa.gov/Partners/GreenHighways/default.htm
GO EV!!!
+3
Jul 5th, 2010 (7:59 pm)Well I was one Californian who called and asked about the gas mileage.. it was terrific to speak to Lyle however briefly it was, as well as the others on board although it was confusing to sort them out and such. I think I contacted them not long before they arrived in NYC.
I’m going to guess and say when in extended range mode the Volt burns gas at a rate of around 38-40 mpg which is not bad for any car except hybrids, the best which push 50mpg.
Let’s assume I’m guessing right – does that make the Volt suddenly become less attractive to buy than, say, a 50 mpg Prius? Not necessarily so, I say.
Not necessarily so if GM focuses its message on the Volt not using ANY gasoline at all for 40 miles. Get people to realize that most everyone can get away with using virtually no gasoline at all for most of their driving, and for when they exceed 40 miles, the Volt will continue driving in peaceful silence for as far as the driver needs or wants to go, sipping gasoline at a similar rate as the most economical ICE cars available.
A 40 mpg Volt starting out with a full battery charge would use less gas than a 50 mpg Prius for up to 200 miles. So to GM: advertise the Volt by highlighting its ability to take care of our ordinary, day-to-day driving needs without using gas at all – and end the ad showing a Volt scooting along a deserted highway with the sun rising ahead as Dad takes his family for a weekend camping trip far from home.
+1
Jul 5th, 2010 (8:02 pm)“…ran an extension cord out of their motel room window to the parking lot” I have wondered about the possibility of doing this on a long trip. Note to self… remember extension cord and duct tape.
+1
Jul 5th, 2010 (8:06 pm)I agree, but having one of the bloggers is kind of like asking for skewed data… Everyone here would drive it with kid gloves, hoping that a good report will get them the opportunity at either a free VOLT or at least a very reduced cost VOLT.
To get the real picture, you have to give one to an 18 year old who will drag race it because the torque will get it off the line quicker. Also he and 4 of his big/heavy high school buddies (yes 5 in a 4 seat Volt) will need to drive over to the next town to pick up girls. And yes they will be using the rear emergency brake to fish tail or spin the car.
Also, you have to give one to The soccer mom who constantly is talking on the phone and changing lanes, speeding up & slowing down,jerking all about. That’s the mass market that will put the imprint on the capability. Not a bunch of engineers like most of us who are obsessed about rolling COF, etc. We could probably squeeze 100mpg out of a Hummer, if we only had a little time to modify the aero, tires, etc.
Jul 5th, 2010 (8:12 pm)My hand is raised as far as it will go!
Bring my Volt to northern New Mexico!
-Michael
+4
Jul 5th, 2010 (8:13 pm)Note to self…. lolol… Figure out how to stop devious high school kids from unplugging car at night in motel lot… Just like we used to do to cars with Block heaters in the cold Wisconsin winters! Oh well if they do, at least we can still go on our merry way.
Hmmmm…. Note to self, unplug Leaf vehicles in motel parking lot… Kinda like we did to block heaters when in high school !!!!
+2
Jul 5th, 2010 (8:16 pm)Since every gas station runs on some sort of electricity, couldn’t they also start to offer one or two quick charge stations along with the gas pumps, kinda like a hybrid station. They could charge for it like they do for the air pump or vacuum cleaning service.
The infrastructure for all these required chargers might be here alot sooner than 50 years!
I-5 Electrification Plans
http://wsdot.wa.gov/Partners/GreenHighways/electric_highways.htm
http://www.wsdot.wa.gov/Partners/GreenHighways/default.htm
GO EV!!!
Jul 5th, 2010 (8:17 pm)But what if Volt ends up having 450 or so miles of battery assisted range until your destination is close enough to do the last 40 miles all electric? Maybe all miles battery assisted is more valuable than 30 or 40 all electric miles when doing a long drive on the highway.
+1
Jul 5th, 2010 (8:18 pm)Absolutely. +1
This is also why GM should not release the CS Mode MPG until after it releases the MPG combined number which is based on typical driving patterns. Otherwise the focus is misdirected. The point is how much gasoline a typical driver will use during a year. Not how much he/she would use on a given drive using a given drive cycle.
+2
Jul 5th, 2010 (8:26 pm)I agree and disagree all at the same time. Isn’t that grand.
I agree that the collective ‘we here’ would set records for miles driven without using a drop of gasoline. But I don’t agree that giving a Volt to the lowest common denominators among us would prove much to help people understand what the Volt is all about. ThE LCD’s are not a very relevant market segment at this early stage of the game.
I’d suggest to seek out people somewhere in between – average people most all of us can identify with our own lives. Find a young upwardly mobile family at a stage where they are seeking ways to maximize their money management. Give them two months in a Volt and let them figure out for themselves how to exploit its virtues. I guarantee at the end of their trial with the car, they’ll have it all figured out – and won’t want to give the car back.
+1
Jul 5th, 2010 (8:27 pm)Last year? The latest numbers showing this come from both the German and US tests involving the mini-E. My guess is that the biggest benefit of the chargers is, as a study Lyle cited to last year, that people are more comfortable and use more range if they know a charger is available. But they don’t actually use the chargers.
My question is what is the definition of “available”. Personally I wouldn’t count on a charger being running and without a line just because a app on my iPhone tells me it’s there. Plus you have to wait for at least half an hour. That’s not very convenient.
But finding the answers to these questions is important. Right now there is enough information to give some clues but for a definitive answer there is nothing like a large scale test. Which is why I don’t think installing public chargers as a test is a waste of money even though I think I know some of the answers.
+1
Jul 5th, 2010 (8:29 pm)These people are known as the “first thousand customers”.
+6
Jul 5th, 2010 (8:30 pm)People who routinely drive long distances won’t buy a Volt.
People who routinely drive short distances and occasionally drive long distances will.
Jul 5th, 2010 (8:33 pm)Agreed!
I-5 Electrification Plans
http://wsdot.wa.gov/Partners/GreenHighways/electric_highways.htm
http://www.wsdot.wa.gov/Partners/GreenHighways/default.htm
GO EV!!!
+5
Jul 5th, 2010 (8:47 pm)You charge the battery.
You fill up the tank.
You go.
Ready for the next question
+3
Jul 5th, 2010 (9:03 pm)So I was on Amtrak on the way back from NYC reading all the posts but unable to reply because the Blackberry was showing an attitude. OK now, back at home with the cooperative Macs.
Couple of other observations about the Volt from Gaithersburg and NYC:
)
The center stack’s touch pads worked fine with two layers of free Volt t-shirt wrapped around a finger to simulate a glove.
A five year old kid sitting in the passenger seat figured out how to bring up the XM radio and the nav system. Good human engineering.
The aero belly pan extended from about the back of the front wheel well to just ahead of the rear suspension. It sounded like a composite when tapped, and was lumpy like it was sprayed with some thick coating.
While looking underneath, I saw the gas tank — hahahahahahaha! (Didn’t measure it though
The outside release for the rear hatch is an electric soft-touch switch like the door releases on a Corvette.
No key hole on the passenger side front door (but that seems to be the case with increasing numbers of cars).
Again, thanks to GM for letting a lot of people see and touch the Volt this weekend, and thanks to the other GM-Volt.com members that I met as a result for the great conversations.
Jul 5th, 2010 (9:05 pm)Your driving habits appear to be close to mine. Like you I will not be afraid to take long trips.
Jul 5th, 2010 (9:10 pm)Heck, give it to me! I promise to flog it to the corners of its envelope and report back with every detailed observation. Heck, I’ll even lend it for a weekend to my friend who autocrosses and hand out comment cards to every gearhead on site. All the flogging and sporty stuff will, of course, be interspersed with five-day commutes and Home Depot runs.
Jul 5th, 2010 (9:12 pm)Didn’t George & Lennie from “Of Mice & Men” have a plan? It was in California too. And probably right around the I-5 Corridor… Irony? Keep stoking the hair Leaf!
And no — I am not thinking of Lenny & Squiggy from LaVerne & Shirley….
Jul 5th, 2010 (9:14 pm)If on the 3rd floor of Best Western and must park in the back lot… 150 feet of extension cord with reflective tape….. Probably not :+] But on first floor of MOTEL xx with room in back and can park outside of room door. Probably yes. :+}
Jul 5th, 2010 (9:17 pm)They need to chop off the back and turn it into an El Camino (EREV Camino — I mean) Great for Home Depot runs and loading with landscape rocks & dirt.
Hmmmm…. How about a Low-Rider Volt, that will suck the juice out of the battery!
Jul 5th, 2010 (9:18 pm)Maybe it’s just my imagination but lately it seems that many drivers have lowered their highway speed to around 60 mph where you get less air resistance and therefore better gas mileage or more AER if you drive an EV. For the so little time gained by driving above 60 mph, why not just lower your highway speed. Then only those crazy businessmen who need to get form A to B in an instant will exceed speed limits; we can add an additional lane or maybe two just for them! Each additional 5 mph above 60 mph results in a significant drop in overall mpg or AER. Slow down and enjoy life and live longer. So its not just Lyle and few other people in society that are waking up to the facts.
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
P.S. I hope that by slowing down I will be able to increase my AER above 40 miles but also believe that CS mode will have above 50 mpg! From some of the observations, reported here, by drivers who saw Volts being test, they were traveling around 70 mph. In the near future, either you or I can
If I’m wrong and we only get about +40 mpg, then I’ll just stare at you, but if you’re wrong you can 
.
-11
Jul 5th, 2010 (9:21 pm)(click to show comment)
-1
Jul 5th, 2010 (9:27 pm)Let – not only you are an idiot but your statement shows how little you know about the political stuff but how bonehead you are about the GM ..may I suggest you go back & read why GM was saved so that workers can keep jobs & not end up on unemployment line ..Do you have a job?
Jul 5th, 2010 (9:29 pm)Around here…. expressway driving… people drive between 70 to 75.. with a few going higher. The only time one sees 60 is when the speed limit is 55. Just information… for you.
+1
Jul 5th, 2010 (9:55 pm)Thanks for the links! I’ve been following the future advent of the Leaf in the Washington area as well as Phoenix and Tucson, Arizona corridor. I predicted that rapid implementation of charging infrastructure here on gm-volt.com some time ago. The “Greenhighways” collaboration is a prime indicator of how fast sufficient infrastructure can be developed. I hope and suspect that it will be duplicated between Texas and North Dakota. (The other NAFTA corridor) And also hopefully, Texas will forget that proposed mega-highway they have been pushing which would straight-line freight traffic from Canada directly to Mexico, never benefiting local businesses along the way. If states to the north adopted the same design, it would divide the country in half
.
I look forward to the race between you and loboc! I hate to say it but it will be good publicity for both vehicles. I think you will need all the good luck you can get to win over the Volt.
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
-2
Jul 5th, 2010 (10:07 pm)Great effort is being expended to not discuss CS-mode efficiency.
Great effort is being expended to not discuss Volt purchase price.
Great effort is being expended to not discuss the plug-in model Prius.
Why? Shouldn’t you be working your hardest to address all aspects of Volt, refine your responses to all possible topics prior to rollout? You know darn well the media is going to be thorough and many have shown disfavor for efficiency technologies. Why not prepare for that… especially in the light of the competition? You do realize that 42,874 Prius were purchased last month (total for US and Japan), right?
The attitude of simply accepting whatever happens when it happens is not how you change the game.
Jul 5th, 2010 (10:13 pm)What you say doesn’t surprise me. Maybe those down here reducing their speed read the articles on how each 5 mph above 60 mph reduces the range on a tank of gasoline but in your area they haven’t. You and everyone there should slow down! You don’t save that much time racing from one point to another. We have trucks down here that go 100 mph down I83. It’s a frequent sight to see an accident here that shuts down traffic on the main-line for nearly an hour. Texas does have one saving feature in that they have service roads that traffic can be redirected onto that helps move the traffic but it’s still one big mess.
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
P.S. What part of the country are you from? Please pardon me if you indicated in the past and I missed it.
Jul 5th, 2010 (10:14 pm)I get that.
However, if you know what the 340 is, you can pretty easily tell what your 30-day will be.
I’ll get around 600mpg on my commute. My commute is well within the Volt’s sweet spot for maximum electricity usage. A BEV-100 would probably do the trick as well.
-3
Jul 5th, 2010 (10:14 pm)sorry, double post
+2
Jul 5th, 2010 (10:21 pm)It is verboten to discuss these subjects!
Why the heck would we discuss plug-in Prii on a Volt site? Go talk about it in the Prius site.
oh wait. john1701a.com doesn’t have a forum!
+3
Jul 5th, 2010 (10:23 pm)I realize that’s probably 42,874 really bad cases of ‘Buyer’s Remorse’ coming real soon.
-1
Jul 5th, 2010 (10:49 pm)Comparisons to Corolla & Leaf are abundant here.
It doesn’t make sense leaving out the closest in abilities and the only other upcoming PHEV.
+1
Jul 5th, 2010 (10:49 pm)Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, boring blah, blah, blah.
Boring.
Blah, blah, blah, bland, blah, blah, blah, blah….
Have you hugged your Prius today?
Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
John, go fix some Prius problems in your own circle.
Your just boring us to death over here.
-1
Jul 5th, 2010 (10:58 pm)The 1,776 mile drive was great for reinforcing the long-distance travel ability.
Game changing opportunities are slipping by though.
Why not do more?
Jul 5th, 2010 (10:59 pm)Absolutely.
The Prius (and the planned plug in) is second rate to the Volt.
+2
Jul 5th, 2010 (11:03 pm)Danger Will Robinson! The following “assumes” that the battery range of the Volt will be 40 miles and the fuel economy when running the engine/generator will be 50 MPG. Plug in any numbers you want.
Here’s the problem with MPG on the Volt as compared to traditional cars (including present hybrids). For the traditional cars, the MPG vs. miles driven is a horizontal line. Well, two. One for city and one for highway. Pretty much, no matter how far you drive, under the same conditions, you’ll get some pretty consistent number (yeah, and your mileage may vary, etc.).
With the Volt, the mileage varies with how many miles you drive between charges. The formula looks like:
1/(max(0,(miles driven – battery miles)/mpg in generator mode)/miles driven)
OK, in Excel it actually looked like 1/(MAX(0,(B24-B$1)/B$2)/B24).
What this gives you is a curve that has infinite mpg below 40 miles. Well, yeah, if you never drive past 40 miles between charges, you’ll drive a lot of miles with nary a drop of gasoline. Starting at 40 miles, you start to see an effective MPG of 1050 at 42 miles, curving down to 100 MPG if you drive 80 miles between charges. BTW, at 102 miles, this calculation for the Volt is still showing 82 MPG while the Leaf is sitting in a WalMart parking lot plugged into the infrastructure.
It’s too bad that a lot of people, somewhere around their first algebra course, declared “math is hard and I don’t see where I’ll need any of this stuff ever anyway.” Well, understanding the Volt’s fuel economy — as applied to whatever *your* daily drive happens to be — is exactly why you need elementary algebra.
+1
Jul 5th, 2010 (11:03 pm)Clean Natural Gas, nuclear and coal are all domestically produced mr Slave to OPEC.
Jul 5th, 2010 (11:04 pm)John have you discussed the Plug-in Prius vehicle now being tested in San Fransisco?
http://green.autoblog.com/2010/04/13/quick-spin-2010-plug-in-prius-prototype-just-like-your-mother/
from April 13th 2010.
It basically is a standard Prius modified to include two additional lithium ion batteries that allow the Prius to go 12-13 miles AER. The extra space for the additional batteries comes form raising the trunk flour about two inches. Unless Toyota accelerates the current test program, the Pug-in Prius won’t be on the market until after April 2012. The batteries weigh about 220 lbs. By making a few simple charges, Toyota has increased the AER but still far less than the 40 miles AER of the Volt. Also maximum speed in electric mode is approximately 64 mph. Above 60 mph, gas millage decreases significantly, so it looks like Toyota is banking on driver goes slower in the future.
Considering the current disclosed data about this Plug-In Prius, Toyota seems to be merely looking for publicity. Two years to test this design doesn’t seem to make sense! The GM Volt certainly has leap-frog jumped Toyota in the hybrid market. We can all guess that they are working feverishly on an advanced EV design; perhapes an EREV similar to the Volt. The stats on the Plug-In Prius just don’t cut it when you consider the stated time frame for testing.
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
Jul 5th, 2010 (11:07 pm)Lyle: If you show me how, I’ll post the Volt MPG curve. I did a screen shot into a jpeg file.
Jul 5th, 2010 (11:14 pm)He knows that. But something is blocking his ability to do the math in the US. The plugin Toyota is just not a US market car.
Jul 5th, 2010 (11:14 pm)It’s a multi-vehicle, multi-type rollout. First comes a new regular Li-ion hybrid. This time next year it should be available. That will help ramp up battery production prior to the full plug-in release. The goal with the plug-in is to make lots available quickly at an affordable price, hence the 600 of them being rolled out now for collecting consumer-behavior data.
Explain why GM is starting with only select markets for Volt. Isn’t that similar?
+1
Jul 5th, 2010 (11:22 pm)THANKS, DonC. It was a truly moving event! I don’t think that there *were* any better seats for the show. We *might* have been tied with the Norwegian Cruise ship immediately next door to Pier 92, but those folks didn’t get to watch the fireworks over a beautiful Volt! A few of us had an enormously enjoyable chat about the Volt and all the cool things that HAVE to happen within the next few months, and I even got a brandy new T-shirt! (LOL).
I took tons of pictures, but literally just got home a half hour ago. I also don’t want to steal any of Lyle’s thunder if he’s doing a separate post on the shindig. Once I get them onto my computer and cleaned up a bit, I’ll probably post them to my open account at Photobucket.com. (so far, I’ve only read comments to #55)
Thanks again, Lyle! Oh, and thanks to GM too (g) It was a real happening!
Be well and believe,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS
+1
Jul 5th, 2010 (11:34 pm)Yep, that was my point!
The LEAF will be the only vehicle out next year with rapid charging. I don’t know how many people will consider taking it on a road trip, but it is more credible with the LEAF than any other car for a gas free road trip.
Jul 5th, 2010 (11:41 pm)Your changing the subject again. But thats ok. Let me ask if you read the link on the Plug-In Prius that I gave. The article stated that Toyota will be testing for two years. I don’t think they will be selling any until 2012 unless like I said they accelerate their planned roll-out of the Plug-In Prius. Do you have any info source on this topic? They are testing for any problems with the upgrade. Not surprising after what they have recently experienced! In this case, the only part in question is the new lithium-ion batteries they are using.
At best, what they have done will reduce gasoline consumption for those who buy it, and that is all good. Better yet, purchasing a vehicle that gives higher AER, will reduce petroleum consumption faster. Toyota must be banking on a slight price increase to remain competitive with all the other EVs coming to market. Whether or not consumers will buy into this will take time to see. The sale of the Volt, Nisan Leaf, and Ford Focus is just around the corner (2011). I guess we can still say that the Prius and the Volt are in the same category while the latter two BEVs aren’t because they are all electric.
GM has not released the Volt’s MSRP yet and may just bust Toyota’s and Nissan’s bubble by lowering the MSRP to take more of the market from them. One more reason for not releasing that bit of info; still time to consider dropping the price of the Volt a bit more.
It’s a vicious market and the players still have their own tricks to play.
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
Jul 5th, 2010 (11:44 pm)Excellent synopsis! Great talking to you too, and participation at future events is almost a certainty (God willing)! – less than a hundred more comments left to read (g)
Be well and believe,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS
Jul 5th, 2010 (11:48 pm)Hey Tag. Welcome back. I’ll look forward to looking at your photobucket!
Happy trails to you ’til we meet gain.
Jul 5th, 2010 (11:59 pm)Can you drive a Volt *fast*??? Just like a regular car? (LOL)
Be well and believe,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS
Jul 6th, 2010 (12:02 am)Thanks for the info BillR! You and Tag and the other attendees are lucky to have been there. And we all appreciate the feed back.
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
P.S. I wish that everyone would include the post number of the original poster that you are commenting on. It will help everyone find the original post. Simply observe the post number and edit your comments. I put the post number just before the commentators name. It’s a feature that I have requested Lyle to include. It would only require a little more code to implement.
Jul 6th, 2010 (12:05 am)Thanks! It’s now after 1 a.m. here and I’m *almost* done the comments. Sometime I plan on sleeping, but only briefly (g).
Be well and believe,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****NPNS
Jul 6th, 2010 (12:19 am)Well, with the race being on electricity alone, I think I’ve got him beat unless he pulls ahead and you hear me coughing. That’s no fair, electricity alone, nothing else.
I believe I’ll beat him in charge times alone, LOL
http://wsdot.wa.gov/Partners/GreenHighways/electric_highways.htm
http://www.wsdot.wa.gov/Partners/GreenHighways/default.htm
GO EV!!!
Jul 6th, 2010 (12:32 am)Nighty night doc. I’ll check back in the morning.
+1
Jul 6th, 2010 (1:26 am)Great news Lyle and another great job you have done getting this out for us. What a big step for the VOLT. As Tag and other of us that have been around the site for so long know some did say that the VOLT was nothing but hype and that GM would never build it. Then they were saying that GM was going under and no VOLT would ever roll. Then when the protos were out they were saying the ICE units did not work just because GM did not let them run for the test drives. Now they are saying that the gas milage for the ICE must not be good just because GM is not saying what it is…. did you ever think maybe it is better then expected and they are not saying because they don’t want the enemy to have the numbers at this point in time.
Ok enough and back to staying out of the blah blah blah
Keep up the good work Lyle!
Goooooooooooooo VOLT
Goooooooooooooooooo GM
VOLTIK
Jul 6th, 2010 (5:12 am)A lot of people are fixated on that CS mode mpg and you know all the coming reviews will each have a different number.. expect lots of creative ways to reduce the ev range on Volt also. Not sure how GM can manage this.
What CS mode mpg test methodology do you want to see?
Jul 6th, 2010 (5:20 am)Leaf — We may have you on a technicality. The VOLT only runs on electricity. The ICE is a generator for the battery. No different than the electricity produced at a power plant generating power on the grid. Coal, Nuclear, NG, even Hydro are all “fuels” that power the generator that produces the electricity. Gasoline just happens to be the fuel in this case. Now, we could run the engine on E100 for the race. It would hold out! GM might void the warranty if they ever found out, but it could be done!
You can find an environmentalist that can give 500 reasons why each fuel is bad. Hydro means a damn which changes the eco-system up stream and yada, yada, yada. Yes, in Wisconsin there was the Kickapoo River project for hydro power in the late 60′s which was killed by the environmentalist of the day.
Jul 6th, 2010 (5:26 am)Did you see any belts used in the engine?
Jul 6th, 2010 (6:56 am)Now, there seems to be some confusion on the mpg at highway speeds. Just forget for a moment that the Volt is an EV.
When driving for a long time at a steady 70 mph imagine what the Volt would get just using it’s ICE and a mechanical transmission. What would it be? Well probably, at it’s heavy weight, about 35 mpg ish. Right? Does anyone think it would be far different than this? It’s heavy but has great aerodynamics and low rolling resistance wheels. However, the ICE is not a custom job, it’s a standard ICE. Thus, no special gains. It’s the same engine as in the Cruze.
Now, imagine cutting that very simple high-gear mechanical link and replacing that with a generator, controller, electric motor. Does anyone think that improves efficiency? No it won’t.
If that was the case, auto manufacturers would have serial drivetrains in all the cars. Electric motors are very cheap with great maintainability. If it was expensive, they would be put in all high-end vehicles because the torque gains.
So, reality sets in and the numerous energy transitions results in a less efficient drivetrain. That is physics.
Again, I have to stress that I still think this is an excellent way to go and should prove to be a very desirable drivetrain. Why? It has so many positive features and should allow for a very maintainable EV for 90 percent of the time! That should result in using 10 times less fuel for most drivers!
If you drive more than 40 miles everyday on the highway, get a diesel or move closer! That is a long-term financial disaster in the making anyway. Hey, do you really think the stability of fuel prices just increased now that the BP oil spill is out? No. It’s going to get worse, less stable. Saudi Arabia is also making some crazy statements that they are not going to be able to keep up.
The Volt, while not getting fantastic highway fuel economy, will allow you to cut your use of petroleum by multiples.
+1
Jul 6th, 2010 (7:06 am)I would also like to suggest that GM just come out and tell us all what the numbers were for the 1776 trip. Just come out and say it. You can then say things will improve with software improvements and other changes but that you were very happy with the results.
The more you try to hide it, the more it looks like you think its a disaster. It is not! At 30 mpg (around), it’s a great trade-off for the other 90 percent of the time. The reduction of mechanical transmissions, increased costs, etc. Just state that and be happy with it.
Jul 6th, 2010 (8:27 am)where did you get 300 miles? that is just design goal…
Jul 6th, 2010 (8:32 am)Many of the LEAF fans around here are annoying because they’ll twist and turn everything until it is an advantage for the LEAF. You know, the typical troll behavior….
You’re doing the same thing as a Volt fan. I’m a Volt fan, but honestly I’m ashamed to be associated with several of you because you’re behaving with the same trollish behavior.
The Volt has upsides and downsides. Deal with it.
Jul 6th, 2010 (8:36 am)I’d suspect better because of the little engine. No other 3500 lb car has such a little gasoline engine.
Jul 6th, 2010 (8:51 am)Close would be the equinox with a 2.4l in a 4690lb vehicle..and excellent fuel economy..
Have had mine for 6 months…you would not believe it a 4 cyl engine..unless towing. averaging about 6 l/100km (40m/usg, 47m/imp)
Jul 6th, 2010 (9:40 am)I had a great time at the Volt event. Car looked great. Got to sit inside, nice leather seats. Back seat alittle tight. Price rumors are $40k less rebate. No waiting list, will be sold at dealers with no waiting list. I asked about dealer markups; “we hope they don’t mark them up”. ICE rumors are “compatible with the top 3 non-hybrid cars” Thanks GM.
Jul 6th, 2010 (11:51 am)Don’t go by weight, go by car size. The weight is due to the battery pack. You don’t get a benefit from that. I’m talking about a car of that size with that engine, like the Cruize.
Also, should we compare against a hybrid like the Prius 3G? Who thinks the Volt will get better highway mileage (70 mpg steady)? I would bank that the Prius mpg will be higher. It has a smaller ICE that is designed specifically for hybrid use and uses an efficient mechanical linkage. If we can drop the fanboy thinking for a moment, what is your guess? We will know in about 6 months as this is going to be one of the first things people do – side-by-side highway drives with the Volt vs. Prius. Prius will win this, of course. It’s physics and design refinement. However, I’m still saying Voltec is far better. It’s the next step. The plug-in hybrid step. The Prius only uses gas. The Volt uses homegrown electricity for 90 percent of the time. That’s the difference that counts.
Jul 6th, 2010 (4:55 pm)That’s why I’m a big solar fan!
GO EV!!!
Jul 6th, 2010 (5:42 pm)“The best advertising for the Volt is the Volt itself.”
Wrong. The best advertising for the Volt is actual advertising for the Volt itself. Stop trying to rationalize the fact that GM’s advertising for the Volt is nonexistent with the Volt a mere 4 months from release.
Jul 6th, 2010 (6:52 pm)Here I thought maybe you were a wind fan….
Jul 6th, 2010 (7:39 pm)At 70 MPG on flat road, I’d agree that the Prius probably beats the Volt. But even the EPA “highway” profile includes some speed changes and grades.
The Prius 3G can’t turn the engine “off” above 62 MPH. The older ones couldn’t below 42 MPH. When going down hill or slowing down, the Prius could defuel the engine but the engine still rolls over. The Volt will power down completely.
I’m betting on a pretty much tie due to each car having some benefits over the other under the drive cycle.
Jul 6th, 2010 (7:43 pm)I think you over-estimate the efficiency of a mechanical transmission. They are in the low 90% range, not that far above the efficiency of an electric transmission.
Induction motors are cheap. PM motors are not. Power electronics is not. A serial transmission is thousands of dollars more.
Jul 6th, 2010 (7:44 pm)Just starting to upload stuff to photobucket.com (http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v95/Tagamet/Freedom_VOLT/SAM_0792.mp4) and will at least TRY to embed this video link:
More “stills” as I get them uploaded to this folder.
Thanks again, Lyle!
Be well,
Tagamet
LJGTVWOTR!!
Jul 6th, 2010 (8:38 pm)Thanks for the pictures Tag…
Looks like you know how to hold a camera;)
Jul 6th, 2010 (8:48 pm)Thanks (g). Uploaded a slew more.
Be well and believe,
Tagamet
Jul 6th, 2010 (8:59 pm)Here is the link…
http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v95/Tagamet/Freedom_VOLT/?start=all
Do you have a favorite?
Jul 6th, 2010 (9:13 pm)Matthew_B wrote:
“I think you over-estimate the efficiency of a mechanical transmission.They are in the low 90% range, not that far above the efficiency of an electric transmission.
Induction motors are cheap.PM motors are not. Power electronics is not.A serial transmission is thousands of dollars more.”
Don’t forget that the serial transmissions are not being manufactured in the millions of units yet. The cost/price per unit will drop dramatically. A modern 6 speed automatic transmission like those used in high-end vehicles is very expensive and complicated. If the electric transmission was more efficient, they would be used on many models, especially due to their torque performance (that’s why they are on serial locomotives – that and the transmissions are far less complicated, having only a few parts)
No need to argue, you will see in about 6 months. Please come back and give us an update then.
Jul 6th, 2010 (9:20 pm)I didn’t say that… don’t straw man my argument.
I said the difference in efficiency is less than you were claiming.
The serial electric is less efficient, but only by a few points. It is definitely far more expensive, even over a 6 speed automatic.
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