Cadillac Converj
The Cadillac Converj was a stunning extended range concept car GM first unveiled an the January 2009 Detroit Auto Show. The luxurious stylish vehicle was to utilize the same Voltec propulsion system as the Volt though specifically tuned for increased performance and luxury.
GM vice chairman Bob Lutz has long been a proponent for the car whose pricetag and market segment was purported to be better able to absorb the added cost of the electrified drivetrain.
Bloomberg reported that the program has been cancelled specifcally so the company can focus on bringing out lower cost plugin parallel hybrids for the Cadillac brand.
Apparently GM’s internal research concluded that GM could not produce the Converj with sufficient features and performance to be compelling enough to buyers at the same time producing a profit. This information was obtained from two GM executives who asked not to be identified.
To have made the Converj perform as intended, faster and smoother with heavier seats and larger wheels, its range would have been halved to 20 miles, while at the same time increasing its price by $30,000.
The decision to kill the Converj was made at a late January meeting even though earlier in that month Lutz had said the car was cleared for production.
“As we took a look at our available capital and engineering resources, we decided that there were things that were more urgent than doing a Cadillac version of the Voltec architecture,” Bob Lutz told Reuters. “We had originally had a time slot for the Converj and that has been put on hold.”
GM still plans to electrify Cadillacs, only relying on lower electric range plugin parallel hybrid technology, like the plugin 2-mode drivetrain recently previewed in the XTS concept.
According to analyst Eric Noble, president of CarLab, an automotive consultant, GM’s decision to kill the Converj is “a tacit admission from GM that they over-batteried the Volt.”
“The future lies in plug-in hybrids with smaller electric range,” he said.
Voltec/EREV now seems dead to the Cadillac brand, at least using today’s lithium ion batteries. Does it also speak to the Volt possibly becoming a one-off model?
Source (Bloomberg) and (Reuters)
This entry was posted on Tuesday, March 2nd, 2010 at 12:03 am and is filed under Cadillac, Converj, Voltec. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed. Both comments and pings are currently closed.
+3
Mar 2nd, 2010 (12:10 am)That’s too bad. The Converj was a great looking car.
+15
Mar 2nd, 2010 (12:17 am)“a tacit admission from GM that they over-batteried the Volt.”
Huh? Can someone explain this statement to me? If I am getting Eric Noble, then he’s way behind the curve when it comes to understanding the EREV concept.
Most people think the Volt is under-batteried.
Mar 2nd, 2010 (12:33 am)With the Opel-GT/E model it does not make sense to bring the Converj to the market. GM could offer the Opel-GT/E in the States as a Cadillac Voltec model.
+4
Mar 2nd, 2010 (12:50 am)While it does look nice, and I’m sure it would perform well in the power sense, it might be for the best that they killed it, with one of those reasons being ‘badge-engineering’.
It may also help it the EREV vehicles are only brought out under one brand to start out. That way, only one dealership’s worth of employees have to be trained on the unique attributes of a vehicle like this. Focusing on a smaller number of dealers may be better for the consumer than letting all the dealerships have a marginal idea of what’s going on within the product.
+1
Mar 2nd, 2010 (12:53 am)Deja Vu?
Mar 2nd, 2010 (12:56 am)What they’re saying is they should have built a E-REV with 20-25 miles range. Lower price, fewer batteries (14kWh instead of 16kWh). Or, given the parallel hybrid mention above, possibly even stuck to 2-mode for another 3 years. Let the charging infrastructure build up, then go E-REV with 25mi AER. Once people can charge at work they’ll be fine.
+7
Mar 2nd, 2010 (12:56 am)A manufacturer will eventually produce a Converj type vehicle. Short term demand is for Voltec sedans and small SUV type EREV vehicles. Placing the Converj on hold isn’t a big deal.
=D-Volt
-2
Mar 2nd, 2010 (1:06 am)Plug-in parallel hybrids seem to be the practical solution in the near future (with smaller & cheaper batteries) both for the luxury car segment (see Mercedes S400 and Cadillac Platinum) and for the sports cars field (please read today’s article about the Porsche plug-in concept).
+1
Mar 2nd, 2010 (1:26 am)Porsche 918 Spyder concept:
Looking a bit like a Carrera GT evolved, the 918 Spyder is powered by both a 500-horsepower V8 and a pair of electric motors (one for each axle) producing an additional 218 horsepower or 160kW. At full gallop, the concept can theoretically reach 62 miles per hour in 3.2 seconds and nip 198 mph on the high end. On the flip side, Porsche says it can also achieve 78 miles per gallon and emit just 70 grams of CO2 per kilometer.
+11
Mar 2nd, 2010 (1:33 am)I think they just missed the opportunity boat on this one. This was their chance to engineer a more performance oriented voltec drivetrain for the luxury performance market, at about 2x the volt pricing (then use what they learn in future voltec drivetrains). There is a huge void in the luxury electric drive sedan market and that will leave it essentially all to Fisker. What was GM they planning to do for an extra $30k cost (not price), anyway? Only thing that expensive is more batteries, I suspect.
If it were me, I would have added an extra electric motor on the rear wheels, maybe gone with the turbo version of the 4 cylinder (probably not even necessary) and called it good on the batteries if they could handle the current. If not, then switch to A123′s pack and THEN call it good. Or, heck, add a few more cells for the extra peak current of the second drive motor. It’s not like you’d have to use both motors at full power all the time, so the packs wouldn’t have to be equal in capacity.
Figure the extra regeneration will help offset the extra weight and it would maybe do better than 20 miles. But even that will handily out mileage anything in that category, since there’s not going to be many (any?) fuel sippers in that category anyway. Take a look sometime, cars in the $50k-$80k range aren’t exactly mileage champions.
Face it, what would sell in that category wouldn’t be the mileage, it would be the awesome drive quality of an all electric drivetrain. Especially an AWD all electric drivetrain.
Oh, well. I wouldn’t have bought one, anyway, so I’m certainly not the one to ask (the Volt is going to be a $tretch as it is). My ideal car would probably come out like the Homer ( http://simpsons.wikia.com/wiki/%22The_Homer%22 ) and sink the company.
Still, I really love AWD… I’ve mentioned that, before. 
+7
Mar 2nd, 2010 (2:01 am)I suspect that this says they could not simply drop the existing Volt parts into a larger, heavier car and achieve the kind of performance they need to satisfy the modern Cadillac customer base. Modern Cadillac buyers have been trained to expect near Corvette performance levels in their rides. To get that from a Voltec system would require a larger drive motor, more robust drive electronics, more battery to get near a 40 mile range, and a larger genset motor and engine. In other words, upsizing the whole shebang. Simply not worth the money at this point. Moving Voltec sideways to other small, light vehicles with similar performance expectations would make sense and could make money. CUVs, light pickups, and an HHR replacement, These would make sense and the existing components could be a straight drop-in. You know Lutz caused this problem. He was the one that pushed for the new Caddies to have speedometers labeled in Warp Speed numbers. Don’t worry. When we see EREV Sierras and Silverados on the road, is when they can put that same stuff straight into a Caddie, or a Vette, and still be able to keep up with Lutz’s fighter plane.
+2
Mar 2nd, 2010 (2:08 am)Yet another 2-mode hybrid that probably won’t sell. The price of gas is so low compared to the price of a Cadillac that I don’t think that most prospective buyers are going to care. The value of Voltec is not the gas savings but that you’re almost driving an electric car, including almost never buying gas in everyday driving. A 2-mode Caddy is boring. Pointless. Nothing.
Let’s face it, if the Volt was just another 2-mode many of us would rather get a Prius.
+1
Mar 2nd, 2010 (2:10 am)Welcome to 2 mode hybrid era ( don’t worry – voltec is only one application the same , 2 mode can work as parallel/serial hybrid modes ). Seems GM is worried for a 40 mile phev and want to introduce a 10/20 mile phevs ( May be ultracapacitors – they are more durable,cheap ,fast chargeable and has long life than battery and already seems capabus is running in china ) and then wanna move to 40 mile phev.
lets pray for eestor to come up and a next gen fuel cell stack which can work with hydrocarbons like hydogen, natural gas,bio gas or even gasoline or diesel and having great efficiency ( great is above 68% as of now ) and low cost . No more as tanks, if you wanna go long ride, biy porpane/cng/bio gas cylinder and fix it at mouth of fuel cell and range extender is ready.
ICE can be a history only if fuel cells with great efficiency,low cost can come up and supports start stop nature,durability etc .
Future is not now but the actions we do now defines future.
+1
Mar 2nd, 2010 (2:11 am)WOW disappointed…. And practically none of the sales of the former GM brands happened, I’m feeling completely scammed. All these grand plans to get bailout money and then nothing goes through.
Mar 2nd, 2010 (2:22 am)Well damn!!
Mar 2nd, 2010 (2:48 am)very pessimistic approach, I wonder why GM’s engineering team is not able to reduce the vehicle weight sufficiently…
Mar 2nd, 2010 (2:57 am)This just breaks my heart. This was the first time that I really was excited by a car’s styling. Oh well, let’s see what Ford can do.
+2
Mar 2nd, 2010 (5:30 am)Bummer….it was a gorgeous car.
Mar 2nd, 2010 (5:30 am)Has anyone heard how well the braking worked on the snow in Ontario? With all the talk leaning towards delays and cancellations, I’m getting worried.
+2
Mar 2nd, 2010 (5:48 am)GM is trying to $ match other $80k luxury cars in performance and luxury contents ?.. what other car in that class can offer xx mile AER?.. that has to be worth something to customers in that market.
Perhaps they did not want to spend the money on upsizing the Volt components.. you would need more batteries and bigger motor/inverter to power a heavier larger car. I dont know the details but perhaps the Volt’s pack cannot handle a bigger motor. The cost of the larger battery pack was probably the deal breaker.
Battery packs must meet these requirements:
1. can provide the horsepower needed, 150hp in the Volt’s case, but this can be ameliorated by running the genset as needed under heavy acceleration. Increasing the kwh size of the volts pack would automatically increase hp ability.
2. can provide the 40 mile AER
3. meet the 150k mile and 10 year warranty
All these may have forced GM to change the battery supplier and lots and lots of testing.
+1
Mar 2nd, 2010 (5:49 am)This was answered in the Q&A live feed session from up North. Traction control tested well. Hill climbs were not a problem. Mild brake regen is a good feature in the snow.
The stars are lining up in 2011. 2012 is going to be a fantastic year for EV. Wouldn’t be surprised to see Japan, Korea, China, Ford, GM and Chrysler in the electric mix. The $7500 tax credit is a great motivator.
=D-Volt
+3
Mar 2nd, 2010 (6:56 am)hi GS #12 …
Partially agree. The beauty of the Volt is the marriage of economy AND power. Many avoid the Prius because it’s just another underpowered same ol’.
When GM comes out with the 2 mode plug-in Caddy or similar Buick it certainly won’t rock my world. Raising the mpg from 28 to 35 isn’t going to be a big deal 2 or 3 years from now. The norm will be 40+ mpg. And EV’s will be in stock at dealerships.
=D-Volt
+9
Mar 2nd, 2010 (7:11 am)This is very surprising to me. The Cadillac always seemed like the sweet spot for the Voltec technology. It they can’t make the business model in this price range, I worry about all other demographics.
For me, shorter range plug in makes little sense. If you told me that I could plug in every night and get 10 miles (save 1/2 gallon), I am not sure I would go to the trouble. The 40 mile range makes perfect sense so I don’t think they are telling us the real truth.
Also, when we first strarted talking about the volt a couple years ago, the 16kwh was the battery power. Hasn’t technology increased this at all over the last 18 months? I would love to see a graph that shows the improved power,density etc of batteries and what they project in the next 5-10 years.
+3
Mar 2nd, 2010 (7:33 am)the cadillac converj was a great looking car. i thought maybe it would be good car aside of the chevrolet volt. but unfortunately it has been canceled due to feasibility reasons. but still the concept is great and they can make the car a great car with an internal combustion engine. the converj was the most sexiest car till date from the cadillac brand
-1
Mar 2nd, 2010 (7:34 am)A Caddy buyer is not going to be plugging in their car every night. I never thought the Converj would do very well for this reason alone. Plugging in is just too inconvenient.
I think it is a mistake for GM to announce these vehicles as ‘production intent’ and then kill it later. It is like they don’t have an over-all game plan. If Lutz is causing this pain, he needs to go. Once Volt is shipping, we will probably see a retirement announcement.
+1
Mar 2nd, 2010 (7:42 am)“As we took a look at our available capital and engineering resources,…
A pregnant phrase.
-1
Mar 2nd, 2010 (7:45 am)“The future lies in plug-in hybrids with smaller electric range,” he said.
THE FUTURE LIES IN 100% ELECTRIC CARS !!! This proves once again tha GM is still unde THE BIG OIL LOBY like it was back in 1995 when it destroyed the EV 1 100% ELECTRIC aith 100 miles range beacuse it was better than BIG OIL can handle!!!
+4
Mar 2nd, 2010 (7:47 am)The WSJ announces this morning that Susan Docherty, who a short time ago had been named head of NA sales and marketing, will now give up her role as head of NA sales. Mr Whitacre wants to sell more, faster (who would not?).
While the Docherty announcement is not directly related to Converj, it is another indicator that gm, the organization, is unstable. First one direction, then another.
+2
Mar 2nd, 2010 (7:51 am)O well, now I’ll just have to buy a Tesla Model S. *Smug Smirk*
-4
Mar 2nd, 2010 (7:54 am)Wow! Who killed the kinda electric car? Hahahaha!!
Mar 2nd, 2010 (7:55 am)OK, if the Caddy is out of the picture, what WILL be the next Voltec model out of GM???
And when will that happen?
+12
Mar 2nd, 2010 (8:07 am)Smart move GM. IMO, the Volt should be the only Voltec offered and planned until the millionth Volt is sold. Only then should GM announce other iterations. Do one thing and do it right until it perfected, then move on. Not to mention all the other announcements could dilute demand for the Volt.
NPNS!
Mar 2nd, 2010 (8:11 am)2 motors (4 driving wheels) I think would only be needed on off-road 4x4s. After all the Tesla’s 400hp? motor is the size of a watermelon apparantly.
What you would need is extra batteries, or batteries reconfigured to drive a larger motor… rather than batteries configured for range.
What I don’t understand is the “heavier seats” bit – that’s just silly. Seats as a percentage of a cars weight is hardly going to be much more – especially for what looks like a 2 door car!
But … maybe the best method of drive is where the electric motor drives the car at below 50mph say, and the petrol comes in for extra performance and range (but doesn’t run all the time). The Prius has a clever drivetrain where the wheels can be driven by both or either of the petrol/electric drive.
+1
Mar 2nd, 2010 (8:12 am)Too much too soon of a new technology can be very risky in many ways. GM is wise to make this decision. Let start from the from the Volt first and take it on from there. It’s not that GM can not prepare for the Converj in the meantime.
+1
Mar 2nd, 2010 (8:14 am)Supposedly battery technology improves at the rate of only 10% a year… it’s a rule of thumb (a bit like HD size / chip performance / transistors on a CPU doubling every 18 months).
I would have thought that a sports car is still going to be driven 90% of the time at normal speeds – so the range would still be 40miles… all the talk of heavier seats sounds rubbish – why would a 4 door 2 seat car have massively heavier seats than the Volt? The cars weigh 1.5 tonnes anyway.
+8
Mar 2nd, 2010 (8:17 am)A curious decision. One would think that the economics of sharing the cost of developing the Voltec drivetrain with a second brand would argue for the Converj. I can only assume that we aren’t privvy to the facts and figures that the GM brass were looking at when they made this decision — and hope that it was indeed the logical decision.
This does clear the way, though, to bring the Flexstreme over here under the Caddy moniker.
Finally, I put little stock in Eric Noble’s dismissal of the Volt as being “over-batteried.” He’s not in-house. He’s an outside observer, and he’s entitled to his own partisan view, yes, but it is a view that I emphatically do not share.
If 40 miles of EV range meets the daily commuting needs of 80 percent of the populace, I’m curious to know what percentage has its needs met by 10 miles or 20 miles of EV range?
+4
Mar 2nd, 2010 (8:18 am)It just mean GM is reevaluating it’s decisions which is a good thing…and I think they made the right decision. You probably don’t see Toyota or other auto companies change their minds because in the first place, they don’t announce their future plans like GM does.
+2
Mar 2nd, 2010 (8:19 am)Like a lot of us, I was disappointed when I first read this. On the emotional side of the equation, I’m still less than thrilled (g), but during a brief sanity seizure (which has thankfully passed) it occurs to me that GM is drawing up some reasonable strategic plans for the near-term, based on all the factors involved to produce/market some admittedly very cool vehicles.
They (hopefully) have plenty in the pipeline regarding the Gen II and Gen III Volt, and probably aren’t exactly in a position to sink all the R&D $ necessary into making the larger vehicles marketable *right now*. Given even modest gains in battery tech over the next few years, that equation may well change, but for now, I’m glad that they are making decisions more like Mr. Spock than Mr. Tagamet.
Now, more than ever, LJGTVWOTR!!
Be well and believe,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****No More “Stay Tuned”!
+7
Mar 2nd, 2010 (8:30 am)Electric car technology has been around since the early 1900′s. The real issue is the oil company’s are deathly afraid of what IS TO COME, 100% EV’s with 250+ mile range, with 2 cent (MPG equivalent) fuel, for around 30k.
No Hydrogen (Completely Inefficient),
No hybrids (Oil Company’s keeping you addicted to Oil),
No plug, No sale. PERIOD!
Mar 2nd, 2010 (8:35 am)Nelson @ 32: Well put. I couldn’t agree with you more.
As a Cadillac owner (’04 DeVille) I am waiting patiently for the eventual replacement of Caddy’s big car (now called DTS) with a hybrid of some sort. I absolutely love my car but it could use a boost in MPG.
Once GM comes out with a new big Caddy, I will probably get one, and it will sit next to my Chevy Volt in my garage!
+5
Mar 2nd, 2010 (8:36 am)I guess you are “only as good as your last game”. If it wasn’t for Bob Lutz, we wouldn’t be looking forward to the release of the Volt.
I agree that premature production intent announcements are poor form, but it’d be worse to find that you’d made the wrong decision and bull ahead with it anyway. JMO
Thanks, Bob.
Be well and believe,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****No More “Stay Tuned”!
-2
Mar 2nd, 2010 (8:37 am)Can you hear that fog horn blowing?
+1
Mar 2nd, 2010 (8:37 am)Cadillac tried to sell small cars years ago, and it was a failure (remember the Cimmeron(sp)).
Although I like the Converj, it is too small and too underpowered for a Cadillac.
As someone already mentioned, the Converj may reappear as a US version of the Opel Flexstreme, which has 120 kW motor, aluminum frame, carbon fiber body, etc. as well as a longer wheelbase, which should provide more interior room.
I could also see it configured like the Fischer, where the ICE may come on to help with performance driving.
I don’t think the Converj is absolutely dead, just that it will emerge in a different configuration so that it appeals to Cadillac buyers.
+7
Mar 2nd, 2010 (8:47 am)Huh? I plug in my cell phone several times a day and I never feel like that is an inconvenience. I don’t see plugging in a car to be any more inconvenient than that. What’s inconvenient is having to go to the gas station once a week. If anything, I will be thrilled when I can plug in my car and recharge it from clean, renewable energy produced in the USA.
+2
Mar 2nd, 2010 (9:03 am)A bit of history. What became the 1984 Pontiac Fiero (mid engine, 2-seater, every bit as gorgeous in its day as the Converj) was shown in spy shots as far back as 1981. The program was cancelled twice. After the second cancellation, I gave up and bought a 1982 Trans Am. Three months later, the program was back on (for the third time), but this time it led to the production introduction. So don’t bury the Converj just yet.
-1
Mar 2nd, 2010 (9:09 am)Statik,
Any comment
+1
Mar 2nd, 2010 (9:29 am)Thanks for following my suggestion yesterday and posting this article, Lyle. Huge news.
Maybe GM’s cost/benefit analysis concluded that it’s still all about the high cost of batteries–so phase them in over time. No more giant leaps forward. Kaizen.
+3
Mar 2nd, 2010 (9:29 am)Well…I guess it may be smarter to wait to get VOLT perfected before you move the voltec propulsion system to Caddy. In a way it makes perfect sense since if GM creates many VOLTEC based cars, a problem comes out, and GM has to do a recall like Toyota, it will be a DEATH-KNELL for GM & the VOLTEC propulsion as a whole. Like so many of us has said numerous times, the VOLT has to be as perfect as it possibly can.
GM, please don’t kill the VOLTEC propulsion. I sincerely hope that once you & the public is satisfied with its reliability, you’ll use it to create at least 1/2 of your vehicles with the technology so we can have the freedom of driving with zero emission without worrying about the environment, energy independence, and the range.
+3
Mar 2nd, 2010 (9:39 am)Is there room under that hood for the LS9 engine?
If so, everyone repeat after me: “Ferrari Killer” !!!
It would go for $149,000 easily.
-6
Mar 2nd, 2010 (9:41 am)Stupid GM company. No better than Toyota.
GM to recall 1.3M compacts for steering problem
http://www.nctimes.com/business/article_66f0d368-6da9-5348-9262-8554f0afda9c.html
What a waste of tax payer money. Always will be too.
+5
Mar 2nd, 2010 (9:48 am)I need to take some time to mourn. Cadillac Converj old friend…we hardly knew thee.
(Sobbing in morning coffee now.)
Mar 2nd, 2010 (9:51 am)AMEN! +1
PS GM just issued a recall of mid-sized models due to power-steering problems. Not *sure* but I think it was 1.3 million cars.
Be well and believe,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****No More “Stay Tuned”!
Mar 2nd, 2010 (9:52 am)It would be great to see something like the Flexstreme, perhaps as a Buick, though I somehow doubt that’s part of the plan. Personally I’d pay $15K, maybe at the outside $20K, for a larger car than the Volt, primarily out of safety concerns but also because a larger car would be more comfortable. But if I was willing to pay $40k more there will be some alternatives like the Fisker Karma. That said, I suspect the EV range of the Flexstreme on the US drive cycle might be something along the lines of 30 rather than 40 miles.
Also I don’t think the Cimarron is a good example of anything other than that a really bad car won’t sell well. It wasn’t so much its size as it was its quality. The Cimarron was probably the nadir of GM quality. It was just a rebadged Chevy with what seemed to be lower quality at a much higher price. You know, like putting the Voltec drive train in a …., oh, never mind (only kidding only kidding).
+1
Mar 2nd, 2010 (9:57 am)“Converj” was a stupid name for any car — glad they aren’t making a vehicle with that name. Besides, there is a coming revolution in batteries….GM will go back to its time-tested and true system of strength in numbers; making money through volume, not margin, and mass amounts of incentives. However, just because the Converj is out, I wouldn’t be surprised if it was resurrected eventually after EV’s are adopted by the masses. An upscale Converj-like EV is simply way ahead of its time right now.
Mar 2nd, 2010 (9:58 am)Nope, (=
+1
Mar 2nd, 2010 (9:58 am)Sorry. Patience….
Be well and believe,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****No More “Stay Tuned”!
+4
Mar 2nd, 2010 (10:00 am)Wow, there sure is a resurgence of the EV-1 was awesome comments.
Never mind that GM lost more on each car than they charged people for it.
EV-1 was the first project driveway… get over it.
I firmly believe the vast majority of people WILL NOT buy a BEV.
BUT.
An EREV type car COULD replace a lot of peoples current transportation without the downside of a range limited BEV.
The Converj IS a pretty car, but they are right to put the brakes on it for now.
It’s much smarter to build a Voltec minivan/CUV and a small pickup first, they will sell in much greater numbers than a luxury coupe.
Mar 2nd, 2010 (10:04 am)The Cadillac buyer will buy the optional wireless power pad, it lays on the garage floor and you just park right over it.. you never have to plug it in (unless you want a fast charge).
The problem with short range Voltec cars is that there is no battery available that can sustain 200hp, 10kwh capacity and last 10y/150k miles. The only cells that come close are from A123, and GM did not select them for unknown reasons.
A potential Converj pack using A123 LiFe cells:
200hp
15kwh capacity, 80-90% usable
150kg weight
cost ??
If you wanted 400hp then you would double up the pack and end up with 30kwh of capacity.
Mar 2nd, 2010 (10:05 am)The answer to whether the Volt turns out to be a one-off will be answered in the longer run. In the shorter run GM needs to sell Voltec vehicles. They can do that by selling a lot of Volts, by selling what is essentially a Volt in different geographic markets (the Ampera), or by having Voltec appear in different vehicles (Flexstreme or Converj). How they sell the vehicles seems less important than that they sell them.
Toyota has done very well with a one-off Prius. I’m willing to do my part to ensure that GM sells at least as many Volts. At some point its up to technology and the GM engineers to deliver a more desirable product at a good price point and up to the government to come up with some type of carbon tax that makes EVs or alternative vehicles competitive with traditional ICE vehicles.
+8
Mar 2nd, 2010 (10:06 am)The recall of GM cars for the electric power steering problem is a non-issue. No loss of steering control occurs, just a temporary glitch in the electric boost function at low speed. GM is is doing the recall as a responsible reaction to some very few compaints by owners.
This is nothing like the Toyota recalls, where people have died do to uncontrollable acceleration. Toyota turned a deaf ear to the many complaints worldwide, and dragged its feet on fixing the problem.
Mar 2nd, 2010 (10:09 am)Cadillac XTS Platinum hybrid concept as shown at the Chicago Auto Show a couple of weeks ago.
http://www.chicagoautoshow.com/vehicles/detail.asp?type_id=1&make_id=19&vehicle_id=869
+1
Mar 2nd, 2010 (10:12 am)Mark Yates…
Regarding your AWD comments… It doesn’t snow where you live obviously.
Have you ever picked up a power seat? I’m betting not.
Have you ever lifted a 20″ wheel? I’m guessing not.
They are heavy.
When you add the ‘stuff’ that make a luxury car a luxury car you add a lot of weight.
GM’s 2-mode system does the same thing as the Toyota system, it just has a different mechanism to achieve the same end.
+1
Mar 2nd, 2010 (10:14 am)On the financial front, GM sales for February were up 11.5%, 32.2% for the four continuing brands. Easy comparisons with last year but the weather in the NE was an issue for showroom traffic so it’s hard to draw a lot of conclusions. Most interesting will be how Toyota did. Hopefully the other manufacturers will be up as well.
-4
Mar 2nd, 2010 (10:26 am)Well, I guess that explains why the dealership I bought my cobalt from turned a def ear as well. My complaints went without response several times. It is obviously because it is a “non issue” as you state it. But till it happens to you. It is an issue, just because your a GM fanboy doesn’t mean it’s not an issue. This company should have just folded. It’s got poor quality with poor management. GM is a garbage manufacturer.
+1
Mar 2nd, 2010 (10:26 am)Caddy REALLY needs to replace its large cars …the CTS (and especially the aging DTS), and the XTS Platinum 2-mode hybrid concept seems right for the job. Much of the needed drive-train engineering and testing has already been done for the VUE version, which was able to deliver trailer-towing power and an overall mpg >60 mpg. For Caddy owners getting <20 mpg and needing to replace their DTS or CTS it seems like the perfect choice to me. And it's gorgeous!
Mar 2nd, 2010 (10:28 am)You’re not wearing a red shirt, are you?
+4
Mar 2nd, 2010 (10:30 am)Actually I do.
“As we took a look at our available capital and engineering resources, we decided that there were things that were more urgent than doing a Cadillac version of the Voltec architecture”-Bob Lutz
This:
GM triples funding for Opel to €1.9bn
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/3166b44e-25d2-11df-b2fc-00144feabdc0.html
/expect more of the same
+1
Mar 2nd, 2010 (10:46 am)As usual Statik, your observation is eye-opening. Thanks
Mar 2nd, 2010 (10:52 am)I’m not generally a Cadillac fan, nor a fan of the large car segment, but I agree the car was beautiful. Even my wife thought so, and she prefers compact sedans. We watch Burn Notice. On the show, Bruce Campbell’s character Sam loves Cadillac’s and would serve as a great product placement promo should the XTS get released.
At the Chevy display, my wife did not warm to the Volt’s styling (nor any of the EV variants other than the sleek Fisker) but was very, very impressed with the Cruze. She’ll be in the market in about 18 months so the timing should work well.
+4
Mar 2nd, 2010 (11:00 am)In the 70′s 80′s and the 90′s, the bean counters cause GM to produced sub standard automobiles, now, here they are doing it a gain. My money is on .. After the 1st group of VOLTS, we will not see anymore, only the rich will get them.
That’s said, if they do continue to build them, the will reduce the battery size to get 20 miles AER. Well, for me 20 AER just will not do. If this happens. I’m going to have go buy a $50K Tesla Model S. And if I need to drive further, simply rent a car for the day.
I want a volt, but GM is starting to back paddle, and I’m beginning to believe, I’ll never see one in Illinois. (Can you say EV1 all over again…)
But, I’m going to wait and see what happens.
Mar 2nd, 2010 (11:02 am)Nope, I had my agent get that specifically ruled out in my contract with StarFleet Command. After all, I DID attend the Academy.
Excuse me, but I’m trying to use my Tri-corder.
Be well and believe,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****No More “Stay Tuned”!
-10
Mar 2nd, 2010 (11:08 am)(click to show comment)
+5
Mar 2nd, 2010 (11:12 am)By itself, this announcement needn’t be all that significant; just a statement of priorities. But on the heels of yesterday’s “backpedaling” article, the apparent trend becomes much bigger than either story by itself.
We can sit here and invent reasons why this is such a good idea all day, but the fact is that things are taking a disquieting direction. I mentioned behind-the-scenes Corporate politics in yesterday’s thread, half in jest; but it’s starting to look like a systematic downgrade-in-progress of all things Lutz. GM is already too committed to the Volt to slam on the brakes outright, but we could see some minimization in terms of advertising, availability, dealer behavior and follow-on development; including GEN II. Let’s not forget who’s baby the Volt was; it is doubtful that GM has.
As for “the age of the 2-mode,” how many lessons does GM need that minor improvements in mpg for huge cost premiums don’t attract high-end car buyers? High-end car buyers didn’t get that much money through foolishness; they’d sooner buy more gas than lose money on a dubious hybrid option (The comment above asking for hybrid DTS is likely an exception to overall trends; how many Cadillac owners are there who visit gm-volt?). Which leads me to my standard, high-priced 2-mode solution: don’t offer a “standard” version of a 2-mode model. Or have you ever seen the Prius offered with a conventional power train?
And as for what Cadillac drivers will buy: GM has lost Pontiac, Saturn, Hummer (good riddance), and Oldsmobile. If they want to sell to a broader spectrum of drivers now, they will be forced to broaden the definition of what a Cadillac, Buick, GMC or Chevrolet means. I think I’d rather see a large-scale EREV for Cadillac when technology allows (luxury and technology + sportiness), and the Opel come over as a Buick (luxury and elegance + sportiness) than to see the return of the high-priced 2-mode option.
IF EREV IS TO ENDURE, A VERSION EMPHASIZING ELECTRIC PERFORMANCE IS NEEDED!
Sorry for shouting, but this announcement has made me angry.
There’s one thing that GM should note about our comments, today. The Trolls are Back.. That, in itself, is more eloquent than anything the Volt faithful can say. GM, YOUR CRED IS IN DANGER.
Mar 2nd, 2010 (11:12 am)Wow, they sure like to backpedal on anything that has batteries.
+1
Mar 2nd, 2010 (11:13 am)Cereally??
Be well and believe,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****No More “Stay Tuned”!
+2
Mar 2nd, 2010 (11:14 am)Not a very good month versus expectations at all. Most were penciling GM in around 20-22%. As you say this was a easy comp month, as last February was the lowest of the low.
February 2009: GM -52.9%, fleet sales off 75% (for obvious reasons)
February 2010: GM +11.4%, fleet sales up 114%
Good news moment for GM is that incentives are more inline with industry standards this month…although fleet sales are notoriously bad for making your margins
—-
It is odd that GM is first out of the gate, usually that is Ford. I will say that in Canada the numbers get released much earlier. Ford +51%, and shockingly Toyota was up 24%. With today’s result Ford supplants GM in the number one spot for annual sales for the first time here.
I’d say Ford puts up a pretty big number when they release US figures.
+1
Mar 2nd, 2010 (11:17 am)#7
I agree. +1
Plus an S-10 size or smaller light truck and/or van useful for commercial deliveries and errand running. My S-10 isn’t going to last forever, and the Colorado is just too big.
As to any Cadillac, I’m not interested. 10-88.
+7
Mar 2nd, 2010 (11:21 am)From the article,
“The future lies in plug-in hybrids with smaller electric range,” he said.
I disagree with the “smaller electric range”.
The future lies is less gas and larger electric range.
He is setting his sights too low.
+1
Mar 2nd, 2010 (11:23 am)Sounds like reality is rearing its ugly head….
Sad news for someone who got to see one of these concepts at the NY auto show last year…it was a fine looking car – it had the wow factor that any good concept should…
reality bites.
+3
Mar 2nd, 2010 (11:26 am)Toyota came out with the Prius well before they transferred the technology to Lexus. I think the major problem is that luxury car buyers have certain performance expectations that would put too high a demand on the batteries. I also think they might be hesitant to use a brand new technology in a luxury car. Also, wealthy buyers might be less tolerant of the inevitable bugs involved in any brand new technology.
That said, I think this is a mistake. There are a lot of luxury car buyers who would like some AER. No matter how small. And it’s not like they would have to sell in bulk to be profitable.
Mar 2nd, 2010 (11:28 am)#57
You beat me to it again, LOL. +1 See #77
+2
Mar 2nd, 2010 (11:31 am)#60
Alas, too true. +1
According to this AM’s news, the death toll is now up to 52.
Mar 2nd, 2010 (11:36 am)#68
Aaarrrrgggghhh!! Oh well, knowledge is power, I suppose. +1
If I’m not there, just go ahead and start the IPO without me.
+1
Mar 2nd, 2010 (11:41 am)Maybe they just took a look at the sales numbers for hybrid Lexuses.
+1
Mar 2nd, 2010 (11:48 am)I hope Ford does well. Yesterday I talked to someone I work out with who is part of the family that owns a lot of the dealerships in town. He said sales were not recovering strongly. Not the best of news. He also said that traffic at the Toyota dealership was completely in the toilet, so I’m surprised that Toyota’s numbers looked so good. Plus 24% would be a huge number given all the issues Toyota has had during the last month.
+2
Mar 2nd, 2010 (11:51 am)Random news:
Hot on the heels of Susan Docherty loss of the ‘sales’ title, to Mark Reuss (defacto head of all things actually to do with cars at GM), later today it is expected that GM (Reuss) has decided/will announce that Cadillac general manager Bryan Nesbitt has been oustered/relocated/retired.
Of interest, Nesbitt is a Bob Lutz hire/placement. I think of him kinda like Fritz Henderson’s “Brent Dewar”
/just saying
Mar 2nd, 2010 (11:52 am)This is another example of GM playing Bait-n-Switch like they did with the Volt concept. I am a GM customer and a very good one considering I have bought 3 new Pontiacs in the last three years. I can’t understand why GM kills the good ones and keeps the junk! My 2009 G8 is without any question the best car GM has ever produced and I have driven a lot of GMs in my 66 years. Lutz’s needs to talk with the people who have driven their cars over the years and see what we want not what Government Motors say!
Mar 2nd, 2010 (11:53 am)I agree with your comment about the XTS and the need to replace the existing models but what’s up with the >60 MPG claim for the Vue Hybrid? It’s rated 27 MPG City and 30 MPG Hwy. Where does the >60 MPG come from?
Mar 2nd, 2010 (11:55 am)According to the Reuter’s article above, Bob seems to like the management shakeups.
Be well and believe,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****No More “Stay Tuned”!
+1
Mar 2nd, 2010 (11:58 am)I totally agree, but not to worry – he’s not a real person, he’s a pundit.
Be well and believe,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****No More “Stay Tuned”!
+3
Mar 2nd, 2010 (11:58 am)I don’t agree. New tech has a long history of debuting in the luxury segment. Things like traction control, collision avoidance systems, lane departure systems, air conditioned seats, Cadillac’s ill-fated V8-6-4, etc. generally come out on high-end products first. Those limited markets provide the buyer with an exclusivity while allowing the manufacturer to recoup R&D costs and determine how they want to implement the feature in their mass-market vehicles.
Example: On the road you can still see the occasional old Infiniti with a “t” at the end of the model name, IIRC J30t was one, that denoted traction control. It was so exclusive at the time that Infiniti noted it as part of the model/trim designation so it would stand out.
The same thing applies to other areas like consumer electronics. Early adopters usually pay a high price both in dollars as well as in limited feature sets and potential buggy operation for the privilege of being the first on the block with a Blu-ray player, Plasma TV, etc.
+1
Mar 2nd, 2010 (12:01 pm)#28
As you say, “unstable”. +1 for insight, sad as it all is.
#86
Yeah, the penny drops for good old Ed Whitacre. +1 for insight, sad as it all is.
I truly hope for the survival and success of GM, but it’s gonna make “The Perils of Pauline” look tame over the next few years, IMHO.
Mar 2nd, 2010 (12:02 pm)Comparing Toyota’s recalls to any recalls other than Ford’s tire problems is missing the point. If your car Kills someone, you are responsible. (See link) 8 years behind bars because his car failed to obey. If he gets off, does that mean Mr Toyoda will take his place?
“Toyota defense’ might rescue jailed Minnesota man”
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100225/ap_on_bi_ge/us_toyota_fatal_crash
while im at it, #35 Mark; “Supposedly battery technology improves at the rate of only 10% a year… it’s a rule of thumb (a bit like HD size / chip performance / transistors on a CPU doubling every 18 months).”
Whoa, they are not making automotive sized batteries so — take into economies of scale, and some
other mega-large processing benefits… 10% sounds way too small. I don’t think it will be incremental. I guess 50% or more.
+ if you can fry your pack in 5 years, save another 50%. Periodic battery balance and replacement of weak cells make the packs cheaper and last longer imo. But GM is going to wrap it and label “no serviceable parts inside”… oh well.
Mar 2nd, 2010 (12:07 pm)#28
As you say, “unstable”. +1 for insight, sad as it all is.
#86
Yeah, the penny drops for good old Ed Whitacre. +1 for insight, sad as it all is.
I truly hope for the survival and success of GM, but it’s gonna make “The Perils of Pauline” look tame over the next few years, IMHO.
Mar 2nd, 2010 (12:10 pm)#89
Yeah. Right. Maybe he’s just required under the new management to consult with his personal spin doctor/minder before he opens his trap in public. I sure hope so anyway.
Mar 2nd, 2010 (12:12 pm)I’ve never found any “hard” numbers for the plug-in 2-mode Vue, but several GM people have said it should have at least 2X the mpg as the non-plug-in Vue 2-mode hybrid. Given the amount of energy its Voltec-derived 8KWh battery can store, and the fact that the 2-mode Vue achieved ~30mpg hwy, I see >60 mpg as a plausible (although “educated” guess) for the plug-in version of this drive train —even for a fairly heavy car like a DTS.*
* (And remember that GM will likely make use of the “fuzzy math” the new EPA rules allow that gave Volt 230 mpg)
Mar 2nd, 2010 (12:15 pm)Debuting a air conditions seats on a luxury vehicle is different than debuting a whole different powertrain. One is a whole new feature that might not work perfectly. The second is more of “I’m doing my bit to reduce oil use,” but I don’t want any problems.
Besides, if you’re accustomed to luxury cars, my guess is that the electric drive will be probably be be less of a draw/offset to potential problems. Since the luxury cars already perform smoothly and quietly, etc.
And basically, generally speaking, it’s a harder customer to please. Especially in the current economic climate.
Mar 2nd, 2010 (12:15 pm)Projected Converj BEV 20 miles range seems accurate. The problem: assume a 1500 kg vehicle at 50 mph on a level roadway consumes 5 kw; a 2% grade/x3 (18kw); 3%/x4 (22 kw); 5%/x6 — The Converj likely would exceed 4000 lbs (1800+kg). Meaning a Converj with a generous 7 kw (at 50 mph) motive power, for example, increases to 30 kw for a 3% grade. What GM Leadership had to decide was whether to engineer a whole new EV drive. Meaning doubling at the least battery capacity. The decision thusly to steer clear of a Converj VOLT level Voltec is understandable. Yet the well-received really gorgeous Converj is no less gorgeous. To give up on Converj is a bit shortsighted. Here’s my point. The VOLT was introduced in Jan 2007. Three years. The Converj was just introduced a year ago. Why not await forthcoming upgraded
Li-ion electrodes? Or, the 2015 GM fuel cell? (EEStor?) That’s in line with VOLT’s timeline.
Mar 2nd, 2010 (12:16 pm)Although I agree with this part, those first adopters usually expect *prompt*, courteous “fixes” for those bugs. After all, they paid top dollar for that bleeding edge tech. GM better be prepared to do just that with their customer support. JMO
Be well and believe,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****No More “Stay Tuned”!
Mar 2nd, 2010 (12:25 pm)Well, if it makes you feel any better, there was an article in Barrons saying GM might be the hottest IPO of 2010. Of course, this is the same newspaper that recommended buying the stock a few months before the bankruptcy. But they did make some interesting sounding points.
http://online.barrons.com/article/SB126722854236252683.html#articleTabs_panel_article%3D1
That said, I’m not nearly as optimistic as they are. Short term, or longer term.
Mar 2nd, 2010 (12:26 pm)You are looking then at the new CTS, which is going to ride on a LWB Alpha platform. Your looking at a mid 2013 launch as a 2014 model.
Mar 2nd, 2010 (12:32 pm)Ford is out now…up 43%
Mar 2nd, 2010 (12:33 pm)Noel, are we talking about the same Bob Lutz? (lol). *That* ain’t gonna happen.
Be well and believe,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****No More “Stay Tuned”!
Mar 2nd, 2010 (12:35 pm)Looks like GM isn’t “just” recalling the Cobalts and Pontiacs, they stopped production of them for the time being.
Be well and believe,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****No More “Stay Tuned”!
+1
Mar 2nd, 2010 (12:41 pm)To me a Votec Caddy would have a V6 gen set and two electric drives to give it 4wd. Capitalize on performance with a minor in economy. It would behave more like a plug-in hybrid. Also enforce the idea that it would be an economical touring car.
-2
Mar 2nd, 2010 (12:45 pm)There’s a huge difference between a 2oz plug for your phone and dragging a 30-amp cable across your garage. I think it will be too ‘common man’ for most Caddy owners.
Basically, it’s a change and high-end customers do not like change.
It needs to be totally seamless and work like their last Caddy. An inductive pick-up (discussed before) might be an easier sell.
+1
Mar 2nd, 2010 (12:47 pm)I hope you do realize that your work will let you charge your Car. I just don’t see employers giving up the cost of providing the power to charge their employees cars.
Mar 2nd, 2010 (12:47 pm)Hasn’t technology increased this at all over the last 18 months? I would love to see a graph that shows the improved power,density etc of batteries and what they project in the next 5-10 years
I agree, it’s just that at some point you have to say we’re done with R&D and now we have to go with (into production) what we have so far. I’m curious to see how all the things you mention improve with the next generation(s) of Volts, keeping in mind GM has said they plan on keeping the 40mile AER and just make the pack lighter.
+1
Mar 2nd, 2010 (12:53 pm)Check out this one – it is better news than Cadi. It looks like the reception of Volt by the public will determine future development of the industry. What I was saying all along – it is new technology; if people adopt it in five years nobody in industrialized world will want to buy “traditional” internal combustion cars. (no halo effect!)
http://rumors.automobilemag.com/6647271/green/geneva-2010-audi-a1-e-tron-and-a8-hybrid-details-photos-revealed/index.html
Mar 2nd, 2010 (12:54 pm)It is an engineering choice to provide a 60 mpge Caddy with great performance and unlimited use, as a Caddy owner expects.
Providing the money to perfect the second generation and car specific, 2 mode parallel-series, hybrid is fine. As an Engineer, we have speculated that the Voltec architecture, at present chemistry, is designed for and suitable for mid-size cars or smaller. For larger cars, or heavier ones like the Cadillac, it is still the province of the parallel-series hybrid PHEV.
The engineering for the PHEV 2 mode has been short-chaqnged as a choice to perfect the Voltec was made, wisely I would suggest, as GM was pinching pennies prior to Bankruptcy and both could not be done.
Now is the time to spend the time and money to complete and perfect the 2 mode PHEV design with the same level of effort devoted to the Voltec architecture.
That is what GM Engineers recognize and are seeking to do. There is still work to be done in that area. The second generation, lighter and more compact 2 mode hybrid transmissions have to be extensively tested, money need to be spent to perfect the electronics of PHEV operation, and to design them into more compact and cheaper packages. In addition the 3.6 liter V6 needs investment for hybrid operation. For example, alternate cycle operation like Atkinson or Miller cycle operation could be investigated. Better yet, adding HCCI operation to the 3.6 liter V6 would help perfect this mode of operation.
+5
Mar 2nd, 2010 (1:08 pm)“The future lies in plug-in hybrids with smaller electric range.”
I do not agree with this statement. This would, in fact, be a step backwards. Plug-in EREV’s such as the Volt with larger electric ranges (as battery technology improves and gets cheeper) is the path we should be paving for the future…until we can eventually get rid of the Extended Range piece altogether and rely completely on electric power and storage.
+1
Mar 2nd, 2010 (1:29 pm)Wow, thanks for that link. By *my* reading of the article, it really shows how far ahead the Volt is! Both Audi’s looked vastly inferior, and they were still concept cars (though described as “near production level”). I chuckled when I read the range of the smaller version, after all the hubbub yesterday about the Volt’s range (Hint: the small Audi had a 3 gallon gas tank!). Even the “better” model (larger) only ran in all-electric mode up to 40 mph – then the genset kicked in to help out. The one feature I’d “steal” for the Volt is the button that manually allowed the driver to kick in the additional ICE power at will.
Nice to see them refer to the Volt as a measure of success – if the Volt does well, they’ll think about producing the Audi’s.
Be well and believe,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****No More “Stay Tuned”!
Mar 2nd, 2010 (1:33 pm)Well ya… it runs on wheaties and filtered cow farts!
Mar 2nd, 2010 (1:34 pm)My mistake actually. I thought you were referring to the Vue which you had. I didn’t realize you were referring to the new plug-in hybrid.
I’d be interested in a XTS with anything approaching a 60 MPG rating. For long trips EVs are just not practical, and won’t be for a very long time. EREVs don’t appear to get great MPG on long trips either. Plus, once you get over 50 MPG, the gains from increasing the mileage are fairly marginal. An EREV or BEV for commuting and a larger car that gets >60 MPG for longer trips would be a terrific combination.
Mar 2nd, 2010 (1:34 pm)Becoming the number one automaker in America by sales. At least for the month. GM still leads year to date sales.
+1
Mar 2nd, 2010 (1:46 pm)Seems a shame to mothball that gorgeous body style. It had everything that the Volt lacks in terms of aesthetics.
Mar 2nd, 2010 (1:54 pm)I think you’re exactly right in making this distinction. But I’m not sure the entire issue is the power train. You could put the existing Voltec power train into a performance car but it would have to be small car and it would need to use lighter weight components — which would require a lot of new techniques. For the same drive train, halving the mass roughly halves the 0-60 times. At some point a car can simply be “too small” for the NA luxury car segment. (The Tesla Roadster is different since it’s a sports car, which is a different market segment).
Mar 2nd, 2010 (1:55 pm)Perfect timing for me! Just in time for retirement. Santa Barbara here we come!
+2
Mar 2nd, 2010 (1:56 pm)I don’t believe this was the right time for the Converj. When batteries get better the Converj will be a better fit for the luxury market.
+2
Mar 2nd, 2010 (1:56 pm)First question would be what they were filtering OUT (seems like it’d be biofuel-ready, though), in any case, you’re talking about a very potent greenhouse “gas” there.
Be well and relieve,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****No More “Stay Tuned”!
Mar 2nd, 2010 (1:58 pm)Toyota was down 9% even with incentives. Ford did outsell GM but by 334 vehicles or something. Not a lot. Hopefully next month will be better for everyone. GM reported a huge difference in sales between the Left and Right coasts because of the snows in the NE. The West was up over 70%. This month should have less snow though the El Nino storms are still coming into SoCal, and these have been ending up in the NE as snow.
Mar 2nd, 2010 (1:59 pm)DonC: #117 you’ve nailed it
+1
Mar 2nd, 2010 (2:07 pm)I dont know if i believe this report in its entirety. It says a 20 EV mile version costs 30k extra? First off, yeah the car will be heavier, but half the distance due to weight and a little extra friction? The only way this could happen is if they decrease the size of the battery from the Volt (which the article did not mention). This article is basically saying the Volt is going to be 50k+ also.
Wonder if they are trying to exaggerate the figures to make people believe it was an impractical solution.
+2
Mar 2nd, 2010 (2:07 pm)Static: a few years ago you were throwing a wet blanket on the Vancouver olympics. Being a Vancouverite I think they came off very well. It gives pause to reflect what can be done by Canadians if we can drop that Toronto area philosophy.
+2
Mar 2nd, 2010 (2:11 pm)It appears the Volt is fanning the flames of competition, and that’s a great thing! Of course, the others will be watching the progress and/or success of the Volt like a hawk. The industry likes to let a rabbit run out ahead and take all the hits or misses in front, since it costs alot more to adopt proven technology than to start from scratch.
This is why GM needs to take advantage of it’s lead and not squander it. The Converj had a nice niche priced under the $87,000 – $107,000 Fisker. As mentioned before, people who want an eco machine will often sacrifice alot of aspects be it performance or comfort – for that green prestige associated with “saving the planet”. Look at all the movie stars in a Prius, and they set the popular trend. Many of us who have tracked the EREV story are movers and shakers. KR Sridhar, CEO of Bloom Energy states in an online interview that he is not interested in buying a Tesla and is waiting for the Fisker with it’s larger seating capacity. The “New GM” needs to survey the mindset of today’s movers and shakers.How strongly can I state that Detroit’s old economics don’t parlay in this new age of fast-moving innovation. Baby boomers and below are very informed as to where we’re heading and what will soon be available in the marketplace.
Remember the current administration, like them or not – were swept in under the advertisement of “CHANGE WILL DO US GOOD”. And I feel a majority of Americans feel this way about telecommunications, personal electronics, e – commerce, energy infrastructure and more.
Battery technology is flying along at a mind-bending pace. As we speak there are fascinating new batterys coming into the playing field – lighter, stronger, quicker and CHEAPER. GM is in the “catbird seat” and should be able to move quickly to adapt only the latest ( and cheapest ) batteries available.
The Volt is placed perfectly to target this public mindset and be the crest of this new wave of innovation.
RECHARGE! James
+1
Mar 2nd, 2010 (2:12 pm)The new Caddy will be plug-in 2-mode? Well, that’s better — but less than ideal; unless:
1) There is no “standard” version of plug-in 2-mode models,
2) It helps lead (in fairly short order) to plug-in 2-mode trucks, which add high mpg light-loaded commuting in a vehicle which can also do occasional heavy hauling and towing (with necessarily lower mpg, of course),
3) It does not hold up follow-on development of Voltec, especially GEN II.
Someone at GM is apparently getting cold Voltec feet. IMO, they are in for a (pleasant) shock.*
*Pun intended.
+2
Mar 2nd, 2010 (2:14 pm)I think you are generalizing a little too much about the people that drive Cadillacs. I don’t own one now, but I used to own a Cadillac and I currently own a Lincoln Town Car. I can’t wait to replace the Town Car with a Volt. Maybe I’m unusual, but I don’t think I’m that unusual.
Mar 2nd, 2010 (2:17 pm)It is time for GM to shoehorn a BloomBox into that Parallel Caddy and call it a day.
Mar 2nd, 2010 (2:19 pm)Stas Peterson Quote:
“”Providing the money to perfect the second generation and car specific, 2 mode parallel-series, hybrid is fine. As an Engineer, we have speculated that the Voltec architecture, at present chemistry, is designed for and suitable for mid-size cars or smaller. For larger cars, or heavier ones like the Cadillac, it is still the province of the parallel-series hybrid PHEV.
The engineering for the PHEV 2 mode has been short-chaqnged as a choice to perfect the Voltec was made, wisely I would suggest, as GM was pinching pennies prior to Bankruptcy and both could not be done”"
Stas,
What you say makes perfect sense. I never could understand why GM decided to skip over the 2mode hybrid architecture and just go to Voltec series drive. It almost seemed they were doing it backwards and the 2mode should have come first.
I was always a proponent of the parallel system for the Volt, but have decided to give the series system a chance to prove itself. It is simpler and lower cost and that is the over riding factor…………………however, the 2 mode is still important in other apps. I will keep my “I heart 2mode” bumper sticker on my Prius.
+2
Mar 2nd, 2010 (2:25 pm)But the Tesla isn’t a 4 door sedan (it’s also 288hp). It has its batteries in the middle of the car and the motor at the rear. The batteries are more like a crate of watermelons, too.
That gives is a fantastic weight distribution advantage for handling. Plus the skin of it is carbon fiber for further weight advantages. It’s not really in the same category as indicated by it’s much more lofty price.
Basically, you go to AWD for the performance characteristics. Once you put the engine up front to get a useful sedan space, you’ve already made a serious performance compromise vs. putting all that weight in the center of the car. Now, you’re left with some unattractive traction trade-offs.
I’ve driven a lot of performance cars and the drive method makes a huge difference in how the car handles under acceleration on hard corners. I prefer AWD for the traction, others may prefer RWD for the weight savings (or other reasons). I think electric motors would give you the best of both as the weight gain from the additional electric motor would be negligible. Ultimately, I’d like to see 4 motor drive with one for each wheel so the torque could be applied differently to each wheel. Systems that do that now are complicated with electronically controlled clutch pack differentials but the results are generally fantastic from a handling perspective.
Also, AWD is awesome in the snow.
I haven’t used chains in years.
Mar 2nd, 2010 (2:32 pm)… or, did the original 2-mode system come 2-late, offer 2-little for 2-much (and that was just 2-bad)? About the only way you could possibly rescue it is to add a battery and give it a plug-in capability, which is what was behind the plug-in Vue. This was instantly leap-frogged by the superior Voltec concept.
Given Voltec as a fact, that only makes fleshing the plug-in version of 2-mode out for larger applications as a way to carry the system forward; which appears to be what we’re hearing about today.
This leaves me with a nagging question, though: Is it that Voltec somehow is lacking in some way (other than near-term practicality for the role, as stated), or is it that someone at GM is just hell bent and determined to make 2-mode development pay back something, even if it hobbles the “Moon shot?”
Mar 2nd, 2010 (2:40 pm)You walked through *that* minefield pretty well (lol). Then again, the folks “*above* Baby Boomers” are eating very soft foods from plastic spoons… (just teasing).
Be well and believe,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****No More “Stay Tuned”!
+2
Mar 2nd, 2010 (2:50 pm)I’ve seen charts that show 10 miles of range covers 40% of average daily commutes in North America. 20 miles is about 50%. 30 miles is about 60% and 40 miles is about 80%. Going up to 60 miles only gets you up to about 85%. That’s why 40 miles is the obvious sweet spot.
Nevertheless, you have to admit that a 10 mile range EREV that meets the average daily driving range 0f 40% of all North Americans is a pretty compelling offer, especially considering that the battery pack would cost one fourth (or maybe even less) the cost of a 40 mile EREV. There’s clearly room for both a 10 mile and a 40 mile EREV in the NA market.
Another promising aspect to the 10 mile EREV is that the battery pack could be made out of the next-gen lead carbon batteries that will start showing up in the next three years. A 16 kwh battery pack would be too heavy for the lead carbon packs. But mild hybrid and 10 mile EREV packs are feasible. Li-ion is the only contender when the packs need to be larger than 5 kwh.
Mar 2nd, 2010 (2:52 pm)What, if any, government rebate would the plug-in 2-mode version of the Cadillac qualify for?
Mar 2nd, 2010 (3:02 pm)Zach,
This is what Stas said. It makes sense.
“As an Engineer, we have speculated that the Voltec architecture, at present chemistry, is designed for and suitable for mid-size cars or smaller. For larger cars, or heavier ones like the Cadillac, it is still the province of the parallel-series hybrid PHEV. ”
There is nothing wrong with Voltec architecture, but it is not the only architecture for all apps.
Also, the 2mode is an excellent design. Lots of people badmouth it, but it does not deserve the bad wrap.
Mar 2nd, 2010 (3:05 pm)It’s based on the battery KWh’s. 4 might be the minimum to qualify. 16 max.
Be well and believe,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****No More “Stay Tuned”!
+1
Mar 2nd, 2010 (3:05 pm)Exactly my thoughts, Mark. Anyone with even a modicum of engineering sense knows that a couple hundred extra pounds will have little impact on electric range (thanks to regen). If we are to believe this statement about heavier seats halving the range of the Converj, then the implication is that having an adult passenger in your Volt will cut its electric range to 20 miles!! RIDICULOUS!!
Please somebody with GM access (Lyle? Statik?) ask these GM execs to THINK before they speak. The public is not as ignorant as some of them seem to think. With silly statements like this they are shooting themselves in the foot, and could kill the public interest in the Volt.
Mar 2nd, 2010 (3:12 pm)That’s if you believe just what is on the surface of this article. Converj was all set as a “go,” then killed, and we’re only now finding out. The battery research leader just left GM (do we really know all of what’s behind that?). Suddenly, there’s no Volt “Project Driveway.” What’s next? We are not so far along with the Volt that it can’t still come crashing down due to factors we can’t even speculate about.
The original 2-mode was a seldom-ordered option for luxury cars, a sales disaster. It was an ill-considered, “me too” knee-jerk response to the success of Prius, offered to people who could not possibly care less about fuel efficiency.
Whether or not the plug-in 2-mode is a compelling-enough improvement over the original system remains to be seen. I don’t think it has a chance to prove itself unless there is no non-plug-in 2-mode level of any model for which it is offered.
Mar 2nd, 2010 (3:15 pm)16 max?? Prowler got the rebate on his Tesla?? and it has 53.
+1
Mar 2nd, 2010 (3:22 pm)Statik? Is that you?
Did I miss the announcement of a Volt Project Driveway? When was it canceled?
You’re talking from that Dark Place and it’s scaring me….
Be well and be brave,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****No More “Stay Tuned”!
Mar 2nd, 2010 (3:28 pm)Zach Quote:
“”The original 2-mode was a seldom-ordered option for luxury cars, a sales disaster. It was an ill-considered, “me too” knee-jerk response to the success of Prius, offered to people who could not care less about fuel efficiency. “”
I can see you have already made up your mind about the 2mode. I will not try to change your mind. We had this debate for weeks in the forum. The biggest defender was an owner of a 2mode Tahoe, and also a GM engineer (WOT) with excellent technical background on the system. IMHO the engineer won the debate by a landslide.
The 2mode is superior to the Prius planetary.
The 2mode was ordered by people who did care about fuel efficiency not by people who could “care less about fuel efficiency”
-4
Mar 2nd, 2010 (3:34 pm)Well, at least they made one good decision. Why sell two cars that will lose money year after year. Those who think the convej could’ve made money is sukin the happy pipe.
+1
Mar 2nd, 2010 (3:40 pm)It is not the engineering behind 2-mode, but the overall direction of the program that I question. The original system cost thousands, but only offered a 3 – 6 mpg improvement. Total sales for hybrid options of large GM cars barely topped 1000 over a model year. There were obviously ~2000 or so interested in economy, or green cred, or something to make some sales; but it doesn’t strike me as enough to be worth the effort — by far. It doesn’t surprise me in the least that even at this 2-mode is superior to the Prius planetary split device (a squirrel in a cage would be).
While I might have once had a tendency to throw the 2-mode out with the old GM, I have nothing against a new, battery-aided version if it works as well as nasaman seems to think it will; but lets keep in mind that Toyota’s HSD hasn’t been a success in every vehicle that it has been offered in, either (Hybrid Highlander, anyone?). This only reinforces for me the huge sales impact of a unique vehicle with no “standard” version, verses a high-priced option. There is no reason why this architecture could not be deployed using the original Converj body that people want; the styling being the “cheese” to try the new engineering.
The thing that ‘gets’ me are the many clouds and signs which seem to be looming on the EREV horizon, lately. GM, don’t you dare make any decision which limits Volt to one model year, or delays GEN II 5 years, or makes a sighting of the car on a TV commercial rare. Bring out a Cadillac with an integral driver propeller-beanie hat, if you want to; but don’t you minimize the Volt. I don’t care what Bob had to say to Ed in the executive washroom.
Mar 2nd, 2010 (3:41 pm)#115
OMG! If this keeps up, I may have to say something nice about Alan Mulally. Not quite yet though, LOL.
+1
Mar 2nd, 2010 (3:41 pm)Well, they know best concerning cost. As for the Volt, 40 was the magic number so I thought. To cut back, that means the approach of the Prius and Ford Fusion hybrid are on the mark. Did GM screw this one up? 3 years later we hear this?
I’m buying the 40 mile Volt.
Mar 2nd, 2010 (3:49 pm)…the current tax credits on the books start with $2,500 for a car with a small, 4kWh battery (assume 10 miles usable electric range) and *max out at $7,500 for a car with a 16kWh* battery (assume 40 miles usable electric range in a PHEV configuration, or about 70 miles in an EV configuration)
Those aren’t small numbers. At $468-625/kWh in subsidy (depending on the size of the battery, up to 16kWh), you are looking at a tax credit that offsets more than half the total cost of the battery.
But I would argue that it isn’t enough. Specifically, the cap of 16kWh effectively maximizes the benefit for plug-in hybrids like the Chevy Volt (this is not a coincidence!) but the per kWh subsidy decreases as batteries get larger, as you might commonly see in pure EV applications.
-http://www.darrylsiry.com/2009/01/if-not-gas-tax-increased-battery.html
—-Interweb blogger
Some States may have additional rebates
Be well and believe,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****No More “Stay Tuned”!
Mar 2nd, 2010 (3:50 pm)#124
We watched quite a bit of it, and enjoyed it more than any one I can remember in the past. Well done! +1
Congratulations on the hockey medal. We watched most of the game, rooting for the US all the way. Alas, I have to admit that it just looked like the Canadians wanted it a little bit more. Anyway, I told my wife that I was OK with the outcome. You could tell that it was going to give so much pride and enjoyment to our good friends in Canada that it was worth it. A good outcome, IMHO.
+1
Mar 2nd, 2010 (3:52 pm)Statik has no trouble speaking for himself, as this thread proves.
When we were talking about a program to get ‘early’ Volts out to a few select customers (based on GM quotes from an earlier story), there was another poster (hmm, now what was that name again … some kind of drug, I think) who called this “Kind of like a Project Driveway.” Yesterday’s post was about not putting out ‘early’ Volts to a few select customers after all. You may recall that the post’s title included the phrase “GM May Backpedal …”
Hey. I wouldn’t be a paranoid if people weren’t out to get me …
-8
Mar 2nd, 2010 (3:59 pm)“a tacit admission from GM that they over-batteried the Volt.”
I think the term here is, the ever so common phrase “GM over promised and under delivered”.
More to follow as November gets closer. Next will be CS MPG. I bet under deliver.
Good to know American money is well wasted to keep Union jobs.
Mar 2nd, 2010 (4:01 pm)Caddy may be too soft and feminine in image for having a Voltec model at this stage of tech, if the need for all the Caddy bells, whistles, & puffery is so important it overwhelms the efficiencies.
Solution: create a separate upscale product line with a masculine, outdoorsy image that would be highly focused upon quality and comfort, and less upon convenience and sizzle. Think sitting in a comfy leather chair in front of a warm fire inside of a safe, secure cabin deep in the forest, totally protected from the storm raging beyond the solid, secure cabin walls…
A brand that would convey a clear and simple image of luxury in its most basic, honest form would IMO draw a clientele who are able to, and would be willing to spend bigger bucks for a product that they could trust, that luxuriously covers their basic comfort needs, and provides a level of independence from oil beyond what other cars of high level offer – comfort and security from the outside storms.
Peace of mind without compromise. A brand with this kind of image would be the way GM could make money with the Voltec concept.
Mar 2nd, 2010 (4:01 pm)I seen mention of a minivan/CUV today but none or little of trucks (unless I missed it late in the posts). Passenger vehicles represent, what, 50% of the transportation in the U.S. Ford already has a commercial all electric commercial van out but it is just for urban use. We need to address transportation of produce around the nation.
It seems to me that GM, I hope, may very well be using its engineers to design and build electric trucks. If there is another spike in oil prices that drives the cost of diesel to go way up, the nation is in big trouble. A neighbor mentioned to me the trouble he was having during the last spike because of the cost of his businesses fuel charges. We all realize how everything became expensive when this happened. The electrification of the passenger car goes a long way to solve the problem with peak oil and dependence on foreign oil but does not solve the overall problem we will have if the price of gasoline and diesel goes sky high.
Electricity may not be the fuel for these large trucks but something must be done to address the problem.
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
Mar 2nd, 2010 (4:12 pm)“16 max” was the key, thanks for clearing that up.
Mar 2nd, 2010 (4:13 pm)Well I know that that’s not *necessarily* true.
I was hearing your concerns quite clearly. I refuse to even *entertain* those fears. (“Jack Nicholson’s voice shouting, “YOU CAN”T HANDLE THE TRUTH!”)
Surely, GM can’t afford to go that route…..
Be well and believe,
Tagamet
/what is Whiticare’s parachute made of???
Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****No More “Stay Tuned”!
Mar 2nd, 2010 (4:22 pm)It’s all Lyle Dennis’ fault!!
“Does it also speak to the Volt possibly becoming a one-off model?”
Mar 2nd, 2010 (4:27 pm)That’s EXACTLY what I said in post 136. (sigh)
Tagamet
/pass the aspirin
Mar 2nd, 2010 (4:30 pm)Unfortunately we need expensive gas to make the Volt happen——and that isn’t happening. I see Americans falling right back into their old habits. Where I live people drive to the post office in their brand new F350 dually and leave it running when they go inside. I even had one guy ask me if I was one of “them ENVIRONMENTALISTS” because I was riding an electric bicycle.
Oh well look on the bright side. Maybe it will be easier to get my Volt if there is slightly less demand. Then, when gas prices go back up again, I’ll have mine safely stashed away and I can laugh when I drive buy the gas station where all the 12 mile AER Prius owners are lined up to get gas.
OR, It’s still possible that the Tesla S is in my future. but it’s a stretch and just a tad out of my range.
Mar 2nd, 2010 (4:31 pm)Now *that’s just wrong.
Tagamet
/grabs more aspirin in other hand
//I’m taking a break.
+2
Mar 2nd, 2010 (4:41 pm)__________________________________________________________________
Lutz lusted for the Converj…but I’m not surprised it was killed by Whitacre…be interesting to see how long before the Lutz “moving on” announcement (my guess…< 6 months).
Repost of my CDAVIS #26; Oct 11th, 2009 comment:
Can GM keep up with the Electric Car Revolution that GM helped ignite?
I hope the GM Exec guys soon implement (vs. “considering, studying, conceptualizing, discussing”) the Voltec Platform more broadly (i.e. BEV version –sans RE, & use in other GM models). It would be a mistake for GM Execs to overly pigeon-hole the application of the Voltec Platform.
The GM Voltec Development Team was wise in architecting the Voltec Platform to be easily implemented in other EV configurations/models; smart engineers. I’m not sure that the GM higher ups (perhaps including Lutz?) understand the design elegance and wider implementation opportunity of the Voltec Platform.
A year ago I expressed concern that GM would help ignite the Electric Car Revolution through the introduction of the Chevy Volt but would ironically not be able to keep up with a fast moving Electric Car Revolution. That concern is more so now because the amount of resources that Government (taxpayers), University Research, Battery Makers, Car Makers, etc., are directing towards EV development/production is at a much higher degree of participation than what anybody would have imagined just two years ago.
It reminds me of that classic cartoon of the kid (GM) that for fun (PR Halo) makes a small snow ball (Chevy Volt) at the top of a snow bank and pushes it down the hill (Bailout Cover) until the snow ball picks up speed and grows so large (Electric Car Revolution) that the snow ball ends up rolling over the kid.
________________________________________________________________
-7
Mar 2nd, 2010 (4:41 pm)No, we need an affordable reliable EV product of which GM can’t deliver. GM releases the Volt and Ford has a BEV, There’s the Leaf Th!nk and maybe iMiEV and Model-S. In a couple of years the other auto manufacturers will have their BEV’s out on the market and GM will still need to rely on “Gas Prices” for the Volt? That makes as much sense as GM, none. GM is trying to leapfrog the Prius but everyone else will have leapfrogged GM and have their BEV’s already. Always late to the game.
But of course it all depends on gas prices right?
Mar 2nd, 2010 (4:58 pm)The cost of charing your car every day is nothing compared to what a large corporate employer pays for your health insurance. Chalk it up as another benefit. 250 days of work per year at $0.70 per charge is a whopping $175/employee. And considering how limited the Volts and other plug-in cars will be until about 2020 its no big deal.
Mar 2nd, 2010 (5:07 pm)Set phasers to “medicate.”
I’m dropping off for awhile, too.
Mar 2nd, 2010 (5:13 pm)Loss of Converj seems to spring from the demotion/departure/transfer of the people who backed Converj. Whitacre and company, posing as revolutionaries, seem to be better described as reactionary conservatves, when it comes down to car design.
+1
Mar 2nd, 2010 (5:17 pm)Volt will be on the cutting edge of a revolution and may be the only one for some time.
Sounds like batterie technology at present is not up to powering heavier vehicles.
The ICE lives on.
Mar 2nd, 2010 (5:29 pm)If you think this a good looking car, you must be kidding!
Mar 2nd, 2010 (5:40 pm)I’ll drink to that!! Have a nice evening!
Mar 2nd, 2010 (5:50 pm)Is there anything a phaser cannot do? I have got to get one of those!
+1
Mar 2nd, 2010 (5:51 pm)Why do some people think that plugging in a car every night is too inconvenient? Especially when they are comparing driving to a gas station to fill up. Filling up at a gas station is convenient???
+1
Mar 2nd, 2010 (5:58 pm)Yes, let the Fisker Karma have that market to itself. I wonder what kind of test program they have going? How many pre-production prototypes are they testing?
+1
Mar 2nd, 2010 (6:33 pm)The Caddy is out of my range anyway .. who cares if they don’ t put the EV model there.. it wouldn’t be in my range anyway…. put the development into practical below 30K models. I want a small CUV version … with seats that come out like a minivan… no frills.. no rug on the floor… just a well built practical rugged vehicle that is galvanized and alloy brakes like the Buick. A model T EV. Rugged reliable and priced right.
Mar 2nd, 2010 (6:37 pm)Won’t know that until they produce a car.
Be well,
Tagamet
Mar 2nd, 2010 (6:40 pm)GM should look at an EREV (Corvette) sports car that would compete with the Fisker Karma and help produce Voltec profits.
Mar 2nd, 2010 (6:54 pm)#150
Sounds like the Hummer, LOL. Thank God the Chinese didn’t snap it up.
Mar 2nd, 2010 (6:57 pm)Your statement shows that you have very little knowledge to make a statement like that. GM has all the expertise to build a BEV. They have shown advanced knowledge of battery technology and could have easily left the ICE range extender out and increased the size to the battery to give purchasers a far better product than the choices you mention. Their choice to include the range extender in the Volt was based on driver fear of range anxiety and the ability to travel further than current batteries allow. I’ve said here before and I’ll repeat it, “the Volt will evolve into a BEV in the near future.”
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
Mar 2nd, 2010 (7:15 pm)I’m getting a little queasy – *I* thought of Hummer too. (g).
Be well and believe,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****No More “Stay Tuned”!
Mar 2nd, 2010 (7:19 pm)The supplier of the GM’s electric steering assist motors is owned by TOYOTA…
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/53960ada-2607-11df-b2fc-00144feabdc0.html?ftcamp=rss
Mar 2nd, 2010 (7:31 pm)Thats what the plug-in Prius will shoot for, perhaps a low cost sweet spot.
Mar 2nd, 2010 (7:57 pm)#174
I’ll take that as a compliment, LOL.
Mar 2nd, 2010 (8:00 pm)#173
Not to worry. My thought would be PDNFTT. I cannot believe that anybody took that comment seriously. I can’t remember who said it above, but they really do seem to be out in force today.
Mar 2nd, 2010 (8:06 pm)As well you *should* (g). OT (not that this was ON topic) I have a part time job driving cars between dealers for a car auction. A few months ago, I drove a Mini-Cooper, then got out of it and into a *Hummer*! What a shock. Getting out of the Mini was analogous to child-birth. Very tight fit, and really, er, uncomfortable.
Be well and believe,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****No More “Stay Tuned”!
-9
Mar 2nd, 2010 (8:07 pm)So much they don’t have one. You obviously know little as well. If they had the all mighty great knowledge you speak of they would’ve had an EV by now and on the roads by now. This my friend, the Volt, IS NOT AN EV. Just wrap your lips around that tail pipe after the 40 miles AER and let me know if that EV Volt is pollution free and does not use petroleum to fill your face full of pollution. Try wrapping your mouth around the tail pipe of a real EV, oh yeah, there isn’t one on a real EV.
Mar 2nd, 2010 (8:21 pm)My thought too, and we were right. See troll’s followup.
Sometimes it’s hard not to call them names (lol).
Be well and believe,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****No More “Stay Tuned”!
+5
Mar 2nd, 2010 (8:23 pm)#180, GM =WASTE
We would have plenty of time to look for that nonexisting tail pipe while waiting for a tow truck and wishing we had a Volt.
+1
Mar 2nd, 2010 (8:27 pm)It sounds like the compromises involved in making a Voltec Caddy would have involved it not really spec’d like a Caddy, i.e. not luxurious and powerful enough. 20 mile AER ?? Deal breaker. Too similar to gussied up Prius and Fusion PHEVs…
Plus, remember a lot of Prius buyers “moved down” from luxury brands like BMW and Lexus. So, it’s possible Volt sales would hurt Converj sales. The normal lines and boundaries don’t apply here.
When Voltec sales reach 300k / year globally, and battery prices and masses are halved, and engineers are dusting off Converj research and plans to begin a Voltec Cadillac VTS, this will be long forgotten. It’s the VOLT that matters here, not Cadillac. I agree with Noel that a CUV or MPV would be much more market-expanding than a Caddy. And I agree with DaveG that GM prolly doesn’t realize how powerful demand for Voltec will be.
No need for wailing and gnashing of teeth, Caddy fans, leave that to the oil sheiks and tin pot dictators.
Your day in the Voltec sun will arrive.
+1
Mar 2nd, 2010 (8:29 pm)hi GM=Waste #180 …
GM hasn’t needed to build an EV until now. In the past, sales of trucks have been enough to keep GM going. CARB standards, the $7500 tax credit, and the many EV coming from the competition has changed the automotive industry.
I am overjoyed to see GM making the Volt for public sale. Not sure GM is overjoyed in having to produce and deliver it. The latest news on the Converj program is evidence to support this statement. If GM really wanted to take charge of the EV market. They would boldly announce a new Voltec truck, sport, and large delivery vehicle. The silence, in this regard, is statement in itself.
=D-Volt
+1
Mar 2nd, 2010 (8:34 pm)You have my Vote. I can not believe that GM has not already done this. Go Voltec Colorado and HHR! Sure I wish I could have a Converj, but really I drive a HHR and Colorado. Really I would be happy with a HHR with a pickup body, something that looks like a SSR. So many possibilities. Of course there would also have to be a convertible.
Mar 2nd, 2010 (8:48 pm)When I get my Volt (I Believe!) I am not going to drive by any gas stations! Can you believe it? There are no gas stations on my 42 mile commute. I have to go at lest five miles out of my way to find a gas station. Sometimes I will go more to get a better price. So there, no gas stations in my future! Ok, Very few gas stations in my future.
Mar 2nd, 2010 (8:55 pm)I’m coming into this late (been busy today) so I posted over in Forums:
With the announcement by GM that they’re killing Converj, I wonder if the Volt design is up to the level of the Pareto Principal – with double the battery content of a similar size EV, perhaps it’s not 80/20, but rather 80/40 (80 percent of the bang for 40 percent of the bucks).
I believe the push for EVs is in the endgame and will have to wait for the next cycle to become common – BATTERIES ARE JUST TOO EXPENSIVE FOR A MAINSTREAM CAR. Similar to the 70′s when the talk was, “Photovoltaics will become common” and they failed to gain any real penetration, they found their niche and (hopefully) will become more common after this cycle.
Now that $THREE-DOLLAR-GAS is commonplace and accepted, the drive towards alternatives has eased. There will be a limited number of niche survivors, hopefully the Volt will be one, but maybe it requires a more realistic battery content.
Here’s a note I sent out today, I believe the plug-in Prius will be the winner:
Mar 2nd, 2010 (9:03 pm)From the ad above. An American rEvolution. If only they had 39kWh (19kWh usable) instead of 390hp.
Or call it 140,400,000 Joules under the hood.
Mar 2nd, 2010 (9:07 pm)WOW, I’d have to consider either moving or getting a different job, if I was you. *Fortunately*, I’m not you, so most days I don’t even have to commute. I honestly do believe that all things balance out, so I’ll make a point of driving *through* a few local gas stations and smile at the poor people at the pumps – just to be nice (g). If you’d like, I can wave at them too (evil smile).
Be well and believe,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****No More “Stay Tuned”!
Mar 2nd, 2010 (9:07 pm)“The Converj IS a pretty car, but they are right to put the brakes on it for now.
It’s much smarter to build a Voltec minivan/CUV and a small pickup first, they will sell in much greater numbers than a luxury coupe. ”
Muddy Rover Bob was first to testify today, I guess, instead of Noel…
Small p/u ‘s as well as CUVs and MPVs would expand the ev market more than luxury.
Mar 2nd, 2010 (9:13 pm)Tuesday March 2, 2010, 6:21 pm EST
US may require accelerator override in new cars.
Brakes that override gas pedals may be required in new cars sold in the US, government says:
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/US-may-require-accelerator-apf-3546958943.html?x=0&sec=topStories&pos=3&asset=&ccode=
=D-Volt
Mar 2nd, 2010 (9:16 pm)“OK, predict this: A year from now, which of the 90 announced EV drivetrains will be on the market?
Tesla
Nissan
Volt
Fisker
Smart-E?
Mini-E?
do we count the plug-in (parallel) hybrids? – I think the BIG WINNER in all of this will be the plug-in Prius.”
Wow, prowler, you don’t even have Ford on the short list?
From autoblog green today:
Ford has big plans for electrification of its fleet over the next decade, and while most of the emphasis has been on North America so far, Europe will be joining in on the party starting in 2011. Nancy Gioia has announced that between 2011 and 2013, Ford of Europe will get five new hybrid and battery electric models added to its lineup. About six to nine months after each of the new models rolls out in North America, they will be introduced in Europe.
Ford’s first new battery-powered vehicle, the Transit Connect Electric goes on sale this fall in North America followed by a European launch in the middle of 2011. The battery-powered van is just the beginning of Ford’s global electrification plan. Read more about it after the jump.
*** I don’t think these are intended to be halos for Ford, I think they’re “throwin in.”
And I don’t think cancelling the Converj means GM is getting cold feet on electrification, I think they’re trying, per Statik’s link, to buttress Opel so they can get the Ampera, et al, to market, and they realize the wild horses are running away and every OEM is running to catch one before it is too late… that is, they need to forget upscale right now and expand their portfolio laterally.
Mar 2nd, 2010 (9:21 pm)Yes, but he didn’t get any more than if it was 16 kWh.
Mar 2nd, 2010 (9:26 pm)Know I’ll collect several minus scores for this …but.
Each time GM mentions bringing (or continuing to bring) an EV to market the same thing happens. There is some sort of plea for the money to do it. Call these liquid injections loans if you wish.
Is it good business to continually ask for and receive loans? Ford doesn’t think so. If GM goes public with stock this Summer the current multi-year debt load will splash cold water on it. Doesn’t matter if you sell food, lawn mowers, or cars. Debt is a negative.
=D-Volt
Mar 2nd, 2010 (9:30 pm)The Converj is a beautiful design but it would be too expense this early in the game.
If you look at all the car shows you will notice one thing a lot of talk.
The toilet is overflowing with vaporware and talk from Europe, and Asia. With the pending release of the Volt GM is putting its money where its mouth is by bringing out a working production car.
Obviously GM has may ideas for future products and features even Onstar
is probably being pressed with major projects. All this hard work is paying off but from now until 1 month after release GM only has a finite amount of time and talent to finish the job.
Anyone can take a project up to 90% completion its that last 10% that makes or breaks .
+1
Mar 2nd, 2010 (9:36 pm)Hmmm… I wouldn’t give a minus for an honest opinion like that.
Didn’t Laura M say that Ford was neck high in debt, too, only it was privately secured?
This is “beyond my ken,” as they used to say: I’m in over my head here…
I only wish people would stop treating the Asian OEMs, with their government backing and subsidies, as free market heroes in comparison with our majors.
Mar 2nd, 2010 (9:38 pm)I think the real money will be in licensing the patents and the software associated with the cars.
If the gaming industry can make $500,000,000 when releasing a game in one week then that bodes well for the software in cars too.
+1
Mar 2nd, 2010 (9:42 pm)I think that you are wrong.
Be well and believe,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****No More “Stay Tuned”!
Mar 2nd, 2010 (9:50 pm)Hence the phrase:
Let’s just get the Volt’s wheels on the road!
Be well,
Tagamet
Mar 2nd, 2010 (9:58 pm)From ABG:
With the expansion of hybrid and electric vehicle availability, Ford is definitely planning on higher sales. How high those sales go is hard to predict. Gioia projected that various electrified vehicles will comprise from 10-25 percent of Ford’s global sales by 2020. The wide range is due to a lot of unknowns regarding fuel prices, battery prices and incentives.
Among those electrified vehicles, Gioia expects about 70 percent to be non-plug hybrids, 20 percent plug-in hybrids and only five percent battery electrics with each of those possibly varying by plus or minus several percent. While Ford is working on battery electric vehicles, the automaker clearly isn’t as bullish on the prospects as companies like Nissan-Renault or Mitsubishi. Ford is only projecting BEVs to comprise about 0.5-1.5 percent of total sales, nowhere near the 50 percent that some are hoping for.
Despite some pessimism on the commercial prospects, Ford is engineering all of its highest volume vehicles to allow them to be fitted with gas, diesel, HEV, PHEV or BEV powertrains. Similarly, the manufacturing processes are being developed to provide Ford the flexibility it will need to respond to market demands. Only time will tell how EVs ultimately succeed or fail. Either way, Ford expects internal combustion engines to remain part of the automotive landscape until at least mid-century.
*** So… Ford *believes* that BEVs will only comprise 0.5 – 1.5 percent in 2020 and PHEVs wil comprise only 2.0 – 6.0 percent in 2020. But they’re preparing for the event that their belief is an apocalyptic underestimation… smart.
Paying attention, GM?
Mar 2nd, 2010 (10:21 pm)I believe Statik said it first. But, yes, Ford has a lot of debt on its books. And while they borrowed most of it from private investors, they certainly didn’t say no to a $5.9 billion DOE loan.
http://wheels.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/06/23/us-technology-loans-for-ford-nissan-and-tesla/
Mar 2nd, 2010 (10:29 pm)You must be sniffing exhaust fumes! GM will have an EV for sale in short order. I would venture that as far as knowledge about the Volt, I know far more than you do my friend.
By your remark about tail pipes, you do exhibit a bad mouth. You should really get over that bad habit. The Volt will cut co2 and nox emissions significantly because c75% of the driving population won’t use any gasoline at all. I applaud you for showing us that you are a wannabe environmentalist. I want to see automotive pollution eliminated too. In time, battery technology will enable BEVs to travel significantly further but for now the Volt appears to me to be a vehicle well engineered that will last ten years and make a significant dent in the use of petroleum and improve breathing quality of the atmosphere around us.
Happy trails to you, my friend, ’til we meet again.
Mar 2nd, 2010 (10:40 pm)I’m assuming that that refers to the total number PHEV’s from all companies = ~5% in 2020? Maybe I’m missing it, but what has GM actually done that suggests that they won’t be ready to put their share of plugins on the road? They are bringing components in house – like battery assembly. They have room for expansion on the production lines for the Volt. Work on Gen II and Gen III of the Volt is ongoing. It *seems* like they are being conservative with the funds on hand. I’m probably behind the curve here, but I’d like to see GM (as Dr.Charles Emerson Winchester III in M*A*S*H used to say) “(I) do one thing, I do it very well, and then… I move on”.
Be well and believe,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The VOLTS ‘ Wheels On The Road!!****No More “Stay Tuned”!
Mar 2nd, 2010 (11:04 pm)“…I’d like to see GM (as Dr.Charles Emerson Winchester III in M*A*S*H used to say) “(I) do one thing, I do it very well, and then… I move on”.
Hi Tag,
I’m not so much critical of GM when I ask ‘paying attention?’ as I am hopeful.
Hoping they’re not resting on any laurels and hoping they’re aware the other wolves are hungry, too, i.e. are they alert to the competition? I’m sure they are. That’s probably why they canceled Converj (thread relevance!).
I hope they might do the same thing as Ford and make their high volume models, like the Cruze, engineered to accept HEV, PHEV (EREV??) or BEV should market conditions change.
Nity nite all…
Mar 2nd, 2010 (11:15 pm)We’re not in any major disagreement, let me clarify a couple of things:
Two comments on #1 – a) I was talking about “mainstream” lower cost cars. Local delivery vehicles are especially suited for electric and can make their own business case.
b) Yes, Ford HAS TO DO SOMETHING EV because they accepted the DOE money, but I don’t exactly see them leading the pack or making more than minimal commitment. Where’s the plug-in Escape Hybrid that I saw at the carshow over a year ago?
2. I don’t believe GM is getting cold feet, I just believe they’re realizing how complex the technology is and how much money they’re losing on each unit, for instance, because it’s “over-batteried”. In the early Lutz interviews he stated that GM underestimated the cost and complexity, and look at recent events of delaying the early test deliveries of the Volt and now the cancellation of the Converj. GM is committed to the Volt, but they’re doing it now in a more measured pace to tweak it and evaluate it and will ramp up production as the knowledge increases and the costs (mostly batteries) decrease. What are they currently projecting, 10,000 in the first year? That’s nothing for a company like GM.
Mar 2nd, 2010 (11:19 pm)I agree with you, Tagamet. they should do one thing well and move on. In first post today, I alluded to the other half of transportation vehicles. The Volt is GM’s present answer for passenger vehicles. Now that the Volt has been designed, built, and tested, they have a solution in place for that segment. The next development should be in the drive trains for transport vehicles, large, medium, and small trucks. The Voltec drive-train is perfect for passenger cars but in no way is adequate for trucks, minivans, CUV’s or the like. GM must engineer a more powerful drive-train for these vehicles next. Raser Technologies is a good example and their design may be the one GM uses or they may engineer their own. They may not get into long haul trucks like those Cummins and Peterbuilt manufacture but GM can set the trail for those manufacturers using the lessons learned in designing and engineering the Volt.
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
Mar 2nd, 2010 (11:37 pm)Yep, 10K per year is what they are currently projecting *and* what they have projected for a very long time.
Other than missing an opportunity to gather real world, consumer data, I think that their measured pace is a sage approach. The problems that do pop up in the first year will be easily (I hope) addressed with great customer support. They couldn’t do that if they cranked out 20K the first year.
Be well,
Tagamet
Mar 2nd, 2010 (11:39 pm)Uncontested.
Who knows, maybe Gen II IS on a slightly larger platform? Just a thought.
Night all,
Be well,
Tagamet
Mar 3rd, 2010 (12:11 am)Way to go! GM marches bravely into the past. No more CEO’s and board members from big oil. It is a terrible conflict of interest.
+1
Mar 3rd, 2010 (7:49 am)Alright, this is way down on the comment list but I must vent. Cancelling, or delaying, the Converj at this point doesn’t necessarily bother me. If they basically decided that the current rev of Voltec in underpowered for the Converj, I’ld say “fine…true…not sure why this was acknowledged before production was confirmed.” The current Voltec design could only be tweaked to 120KW and that is light for a performance Caddy like the Converj suggests. I thought they should have designed the original Voltec around 150KW traction motor but save costs on a car like the Volt by limiting output and power electronics to 110KW (or whatever desired power level). This would have given GM the flexibility to esaily use the currect rev of Voltec in a Converj or Orlando or minivan or small pickup.
My concern is that instead of saying something like “the current version of Voltec does not offer sufficient power for the Converj so we are no putting it into production at this time.” Instead the say the range would be halved and it would cost a premium of $30k. Pulease. Higher end vehicles like the Converj are like the New York of cities. If EREVs can’t make it there, they can’t make it anywhere. Yes, the power electronics and gearing for higher power traction output costs more but the added cost is a lot less than the $5-10K upcharge for upgrading to the highest output ICE/tranmission option from the lowest output.
The previous post about not releasing the Volt early didn’t bother me at all but GM’s body language here is very bothersome. I’m looking for indications of “real” commitment from GM of making Voltec a success and this shows the opposite. The whole Converj episode indicates what GM has been basically saying. The only see public relations value in the Volt and Voltec. I hoped I’m misreading this but we keep seeing this show up in words and actions.
+2
Mar 3rd, 2010 (9:18 am)GM, by killing the Converj & redesigning the Volt has demonstrated that the company is generally incompetent when it comes to designs that interest and excite people. The original camaro-like coupe design was exciting and interesting – - – same with the Converj, though the name Converj is stupid – - – the redesign of the Volt to a plain jane sedan is a sign that the same people that gave us the Pontiac Aztec haven’t learned anything.
-1
Mar 3rd, 2010 (11:41 am)Trying to squeeze a brand new EREV architecture into a heavy, luxury intensive form factor is too big a challenge economically. Makes sense. The Voltec drivetrain is primarily designed to propel a car the size and weight of the Volt. And GM would do well to focus on sexier design in the size and weight class of Volt.
A two mode hybrid Converj would make far more economic sense. But GM had best not cede the mid-range family car to Tesla S. This is a high potential category for Voltec architecture and Lutz might want to look again at the S, and see how GM can compete. Given GM’s commitment to electric core components, batteries and motors, they are in a great position to build exciting new small and medium sized vehicles with Voltec drivetrains.
Meanwhile enthusiasm for the Volt – the vehicle that will help wean the U.S. off foreign oil, strengthen energy security, grow jobs and lead to energy independence DOES NOT FLAG. You have a lot of friends GM, go forward and kick butt!
Mar 3rd, 2010 (11:51 am)#182
LOL. +1
Mar 3rd, 2010 (11:53 am)#183
True that. +1
-1
Mar 3rd, 2010 (12:12 pm)Hohum, I find myself not really caring, as a Cadillac non-fan. Look on the bright side, this will free up more batteries for Volt production.
IMO the main issue is probably that Cadillac owners expect ridiculous horsepower levels like 250+ for a smallish car like this. So some kind of parallel hybrid would probably make more sense here.
Car companies do it all the time — “run it up the flagpole and see who salutes”. In this case apparently nobody saluted, or at least not the faithful Cadillac crowd (sorry, my aunt passed on in 1996 at 85).
Mar 3rd, 2010 (4:06 pm)Gran error.
Es una verdadera pena y ha sido una gran decepción. Si GM no estaba segura, no debería haber presentado ese coche con el sistema Voltec.
Esto solo crea desconfianza en GM, en Voltec y en el futuro del Volt.
Con esta noticia creo que a estas alturas, ya nadie cree que el Volt sea algo consistente y serio.
Mar 4th, 2010 (10:58 pm)BOOO I say, but I can also say way to go just because in the face of a tight fiscal budget it was probably the right move.
Not to mention that with the Converj’s lower electric range it could be detrimental to the EREV concept.
But anywho just means that I will have to buy two volts and convert one to a project car!