Toyota long renowned for its quality has been facing some significant issues lately.
Last year they had to recall a world record 3.8 million vehicles due to faulty floor mats that caused accelerators to become stuck, leading to accidents.
Now there are reports that the much lauded third generation Prius hybrid is having some brake problems.
At least 20 cases or more of brake failure have been reported to the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration. Drivers are alleging that in some circumstance when they apply the brakes, they disengage and the car feels out of control.
One driver named Robert Becker, 39, of New york told the AFP about his experience.
He was driving toward an intersection and then applied the brakes. Then the car hit a pothole and suddenly Becker experienced a “sensation of losing control,” as he described it.
“It scared the hell out of me. I wasn’t sure I could stop in time,” he said. He also had the experience several more times since then.
Another driver who reported the problem said ”initially, I convinced myself I must have been letting up on the brake when I hit the bump, but when this same thing happened three days ago on slippery, icy roads, I knew for 100 percent certain I had not let up on the brake.”
The Prius uses regenerative braking typical of hybrids. For light to moderate braking, the rotation of a generator gradually slows the car all the while converting the kinetic energy into battery storage. With more aggressive braking, a standard hydraulic brake comes into play more rapidly stopping the car but losing the kinetic energy.
The reported problem might be that if the car is jostled while the regerative brakes are engaged, they may release, at a time when the driver doesn’t expect or want it to happen.
Toyota admits it is aware of these compalints.
Toyots spokeperson Michael Michels told the AFP ”We’re investigating those complaints as quickly as possible.”
The third generation Prius has a great many new patents and new technology not found in the older versions and some apply to the regenerative braking system. If this does lead to a massive recall (100,000 units were sold in 2009) it is an example of the risks GM is up against in mass producing the Volt, a car built on entirely new technology. If the Volt tuns out to be flawless, it is also a chance for GM to gain on Toyota in more ways than one.
Source (AFP) via (The Detroit Bureau)
This entry was posted on Saturday, January 2nd, 2010 at 9:42 am and is filed under Competitors, Hybrid, Safety. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed. Both comments and pings are currently closed.
+6
Jan 2nd, 2010 (9:44 am)Apparently they tried to lower the cost too much
+5
Jan 2nd, 2010 (9:49 am)The description of the response and the way the brakes normally work are both incorrect.
It is a split-second sensation. If the driver just continues to hold their foot on the pedal as they had been, braking immediately resumes.
The switch from regen to friction happens everytime you brake, not just in this circumstance.
As for the circumstance itself, that’s hard to recreate. For me, it took riding the brakes for hard regen but too light for friction over a set of train-tracks… the same ones on my daily commute. In other words, it took 7 months before the right set of conditions were met before encountering it. And my attempt was intentional to find out what all the hype was about.
+34
Jan 2nd, 2010 (9:54 am)The glory days of the invulnerable Toyota are coming to an end. If all those recent Toyota recalls were GM instead, the news media would be unrelenting.
+33
Jan 2nd, 2010 (9:54 am)I find it interesting that this comes up as our first real post of the year. Could it be a harbinger of things to come?
Will the slavish zombie-like trance that Americans seem to be in regarding Japanese cars be finally broken?
Will we at last come to our senses as a nation and realize that we can’t continue to send our hard earned money overseas by the shipload and still remain a viable nation?
We MUST manufacture the things we need for survival on our own shores, and by our own companies, or we will lose the ability to survive in the long term.
Perhaps the Chevy Volt is a watershed moment not only for the automobile industry, but for the greatest nation ever to exist on Earth.
+4
Jan 2nd, 2010 (9:56 am)So this has been going on for 7 months?
The new Prius is using some sort of cheaper brake performance feedback (hydraulic pressure feedback?) instead of sensing actual stopping performance to blend in regen with friction braking . When the car hits a pothole traction (and brake performance) is momentarily affected and part of the braking system resets to a new configuration.
It may actually be a human perception thing, similar to the startled effect a Volt driver would get if the genset revved up when they were trying to stop the Volt. The Volt driver would panic and really stomp on the brakes.
Anyways, its something they need to fix, hopefully a parameter adjustment in the software will do it.
-5
Jan 2nd, 2010 (9:57 am)As the article asks, “Pedestrian lives at risk?” is not the case. Nothing fails either.
Over-reaction to an unexpected sensation, sure. But why would a new owner expect a hybrid to feel precisely like a traditional vehicle anyway? How’s that different than experiencing other new features like ABS and VSC? For that matter, isn’t Volt intentionally designed to be different?
+7
Jan 2nd, 2010 (9:59 am)john1701a Says:
” it took 7 months before the right set of conditions were met before encountering it”
******************************************************************
Once in 7 months is too many. It should never happen!
+2
Jan 2nd, 2010 (10:00 am)Quite the opposite. I never even noticed it until the Auto-Show attacks began last week.
It’s the typical undermine-the-competition hype we’ve seen countless times before.
Get some practice dealing with it here. Volt will experience the same thing… except sadly, some of the attacks will come from within. The hybrid Escape saw the same thing. Some Ford supporters were pretty upset that the traditional offerings weren’t getting as much attention anymore… so they resorted to spreading FUD.
+3
Jan 2nd, 2010 (10:01 am)I’d guess that GM will have an easier time with the Volt because full regen should always be available. I can’t remember at the moment but the regen system on the Prius is fairly complicated. The regen on the Volt should be simpler. (Note that this is one of the reasons why all EVs don’t charge the battery to 100% SOC — you need a big buffer at the top end for breaking).
Also this recall is not so terrible. The breaks aren’t failing.
But Lyle’s point that the the Volt faces a lot of issues is valid. Usually it’s the things you don’t think of — like what happens when you put the car through a car wash — that end up biting you in the behind. Let’s hope these are all minor! (Also note this is one of the reasons GM is not going full throttle with production out of the gate).
+3
Jan 2nd, 2010 (10:02 am)Herm at post number 1,
I sure agree with you on that one. When we were alerted that Toyota is demanding a 30% reduction in costs from suppliers, those costs may include the pay cuts to programmers, etc.. All programmers work with the highest intellectual intensity of all high tech workers, and, they have to do it at 100% peak intellectual efficiency at all times and conditions.
If these “vehicle out of control” sorts problems persist at Toyota Motors, these “drive by wire” systems, where compromised by electrical problems, or from unanticipated input signal problems
not software-filtered sufficiently,
may have the consumer increasingly heasitant to be the “pioneers” to be the first to buy anything from Toyota.
(Self-preservation is an important thing).
Especially since at this phase of Toyota’s fiduciary state of affairs, it is cutting costs.
This would be precisely why we ought to be more affirmed that there are appropriate funds in place at GM for all the software and firmware and hardware (battery lab) departments to focus only on their jobs and not about money matters.
One more of these sorts of occurrences, and Toyota looses many more customers for “strike three”.
+1
Jan 2nd, 2010 (10:03 am)These are the toughest engineering problems to solve – the ones that don’t show up very often.
We can only hope the Volt team finds and fixes these types of issues before launch.
+3
Jan 2nd, 2010 (10:04 am)What should never happen?
It’s a split-second pulse, very much like what VSC does.
My suggestion is to simply trigger the indicator light & sound, just like VSC does to advise you the system intervened momentarily.
Remember, if you brake harder, the friction brakes are the only ones used anyway.
+3
Jan 2nd, 2010 (10:08 am)Yes. I second everything you say here.
+4
Jan 2nd, 2010 (10:15 am)After seeing Jay Leno’s test drive video of the new Chevy Volt. The GM Voltec system is looking pretty good. Hope to see solid initial sales of the Volt. With GM broadening the vehicle line to Converj and Orlando within 24 months.
Can I get an amen?
=D~
+7
Jan 2nd, 2010 (10:15 am)Even if the experience is just the perception that the brakes are failing (and a rare one at that), it’s still a situation where the driver is momentarily *afraid*. As such it’s a great example of how GM MUST avoid releasing the Volt before it’s spot on perfect.
I really hope that GM gets the preproduction Volts out there in the hands of “regular people” for extensive trials before it is released for sale!
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
-1
Jan 2nd, 2010 (10:21 am)Amen!
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
+3
Jan 2nd, 2010 (10:24 am)I just don’t want to see situations in the Volt where *fear* is an issue. This wouldn’t be an issue (even a small issue) if drivers were not afraid. Please know that I am not attacking the Prius – I’m lobbying for the Volt to avoid *any* issues.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
+19
Jan 2nd, 2010 (10:25 am)I don’t own a Prius, but I can speak to the decline in build quality of Toyotas. I have owned 3, and will probably never buy a 4th. My first two were an 81 Tercel and an 87 Corolla SR5. They were both excellent cars, basic transportation and slightly sporty sedan, respectively, with almost no problems in more than 100,000 miles of fairly hard driving.
I bought a 2007 RAV4 new in February of 2007, and it has been a rattle trap from the start. I am already getting those rattles most cars get at 70,000 miles, but I have only 35,000 miles on it. The tire pressure light is like a malevolent genie, it just seems to light up whenever it wants to irritate me. Worse yet, I had to get a brake job at 24,000 miles, and it sounds like I will need another before spring. Toyota says they can’t duplicate the rattles so I hear them every time I am at a stop light and sometimes when I am driving.
The crazy thing is that I am comparing a new Toyota to a trio of used Ford Taurus that I used for work, and the Toyota is coming out as the worst of them.
I used to be a Chevy fan, had a ’77 Silverado that was rock solid and fun to drive, but GM took the 80′s off when it comes to quality control. I am hoping they avoid some of the mistakes Toyota has made in the past few years.
Jan 2nd, 2010 (10:27 am)Spreading FUD proof is abundant.
This is nothing new.
The same switching over from regen to friction has been in place since 2003. It was there for the entire existence of the previous model. Of course, now, the feel is less pronounced. Yet, certainly sources are making a big deal of it now.
Undermining is to be expected. Learn to deal with it.
+2
Jan 2nd, 2010 (10:32 am)Dan Petit Says:
“One more of these sorts of occurrences, and Toyota looses many more customers for “strike three”.
************************************************************
I thought strike three happened a long time ago! LOL
Jan 2nd, 2010 (10:36 am)One of the things CFO’s may not be sufficiently considering, is that the ‘net can have the entire perception of the “increasing of cheapness” all over the globe practically overnight.
It’s not an easy job for all these execs to have also a deep technical awareness of what the programmers need to be able to do. But all programmers everywhere must not have pay cuts or be unrealistically overtasked by an unrealistic reduction in co-workers.
One thing an established programmer will never do, an established programmer will never ever bs an exec that they need additional intellectual programming capactities in the programming department. What they need is exactly what they need, period. You just do not overtask programming because you save nothing ever, and risk loosing much always. (I can program simple assembly level, so I’ve walked a mile in their shoes).
(By the way, excellent programming work here for this site for you programmers who do this for all of us here. (You rock).).
+1
Jan 2nd, 2010 (10:37 am)RE: zipdrive
The place overseas where we’re sending our money is China, which hold $800B in U.S. Treasury notes.
-6
Jan 2nd, 2010 (10:39 am)It cannot be avoided.
It is inevitable that someone will attempt to impede progress.
This particular behavior has been around since 2003, yet FUD (Fear, Uncertainty, Doubt) about a looming danger is being spread. If it were really more than just a split-second sensation, how come there haven’t been any reports of accidents from this?
+1
Jan 2nd, 2010 (10:45 am)Although john and I agree on very few issues (I like the Prius and he does too, is pretty much it)(g), he’s right in the fact that the media will use the same FUD brush to paint the Volt, *if* there is a good opportunity. GM’s past PR issues, right or wrong, will play into this.
I’m sure the smart folks at GM are fully aware of this and will do everything in their power to test/retest/re-retest every conceivable aspect of the Volt, but there is nothing like real world usage to find the ghosts in the machine.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
-1
Jan 2nd, 2010 (10:48 am)Our posts crossed.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
Jan 2nd, 2010 (10:54 am)As long as the major carmakers continue to move forward on “EV and Hybrid” cars, (great name for a ‘magazine’. ‘eh Lyle?), and not give up due to costs, as was suggested on a posting here a couple days ago, then our ‘Oil Sheik’ friends will have fewer days like this:
http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=CNG.0842aef493f06ed33fbeb0dfdce842d1.71&show_article=1
+1
Jan 2nd, 2010 (10:54 am)That’s really true, Tag, because all of us get used to all the various sensory inputs as “background” from habitually being exposed to those sensory inputs (sounds are there, but we don’t “hear” or “process” them).
Carefully placing some Volts out here for us to do some work for GM, and, conversing on the Onstar about what we percieve would really go far for a near “final” filling-in of how different types of thinkers experience Volt.
+7
Jan 2nd, 2010 (10:58 am)I owned a first generation Prius for 7 years. I complained of this problem and they told me it was the way the anti-lock brakes were designed to function. In my case anytime I was using firm pressure on the brake and went over a man hole cover or over very rough pavement that would allow one wheel to spin the brakes would completely disengage and then re-engage automatically giving the sensation of loss of control and the car would seem to jump forward just as you needed the brakes the most. I have driven the same roads in many other cars without ever experiencing the same problem. I guess I should have traken my complaint higher up. In my opinion this is not a problem of just the third generation Prius.
Jan 2nd, 2010 (11:04 am)Amen
+6
Jan 2nd, 2010 (11:07 am)Well, I am sure that GM is watching the Prius issues very closely and then working very hard to make sure that what has been happening to the Prius will NOT happen to the Volt.
GM has been focusing very hard on quality in recent years and it shows. My 2008 Chevy Impala feels high quality, gets great fuel economy, and hasn’t let me down at all. It is obvious that GM has been trying to improve and they are doing a great job!
I am confident that the Volt will be even better and will exceed expectations.
While the Prius rusts in the “old-school” graveyard, the Volt will be riding high and flying off the assembly lines.
I’m telling you, GM needs to get ready to start shooting out a million Volts per year, minimum!
Jan 2nd, 2010 (11:11 am)Hey DanS
While most contexts for comparing technology regards new designs of new vehicles, as they *all* age, if the vehicle’s antilock brake system is underpowered from corrosion between the battery terminals and clamps, or, if someone mistakenly placed grease between those contact surfaces (or if externally-applied grease melted down between those surfaces from engine heat), then the ABS may not work properly.
These battery situations are the most overlooked culprits for ABS faults of all kinds, and, software filters can never accomodate these simple-to-alleviate “maintenance” problems there, for which owners/servicers must be fairly vigilant. (The alternator can never “ramp up” quickly enough to feed ABS the high very-sudden amps it needs, so, only the battery conditions are what matter most of all there.)
+1
Jan 2nd, 2010 (11:16 am)If the government would make the $7500 cash at time of purchase, and GM sold the volt for 32K (32 – 7.5 = 24.5) then there is no doubt GM could sell as many as they could make. And as mentioned they need an SUV, a pickup, a Caddy AND a 2 seat economy model. Then yes I agree they could sell as many as they can make.
And I’ve mentioned many times how the government can justify that 7500 cash rebate for many millions of cars.
1) go from 11 to 9 Carrier Strike Fleets. Bring home the troops once we don’t need to import oil any more – this means they have to address more than cars, but 18 wheelers and home heating oil
2) The money that stays in the economy by not purchasing foreign oil and foreign cars will create jobs and tax revenue
+2
Jan 2nd, 2010 (11:19 am)I hope GM is testing and retesting the Volt in every conceivable scenario they can think of. In the simulator labs AND in the real world. GM can’t afford to have an embarrassing recall like Toyota will have with the Prius because of the brakes. They need to MAKE SURE their suppliers have really good quality control systems in place.
If GM can have 3-4 years in a row of excellent quality and reliability ratings from magazines like Consumer Reports and JD Power for its bestselling vehicles, it could totally change people’s perceptions.
Wouldn’t it be great to see GM and Ford be the FIRST dealerships that people go to when they want to buy a new vehicle … instead of dealerships like Toyota and Honda? People need to have that feeling of CONFIDENCE that buying a GM vehicle is going to be a “smart move” because of it’s reputation for quality and reliability. GM needs to fight like hell to get that REPUTATION. It’s critical.
If Apple can have a huge decade and make a comeback after “near death” in the 90s, then so can GM.
http://www.businessweek.com/technology/content/dec2009/tc20091231_183323.htm
Apple now has a well earned reputation for making well designed, innovative, high quality technology. The consumer marketplace and the stock market has rewarded Apple bigtime for it. I’m sure Apple is going to fight like hell to keep it that way. It’s that reputation for innovative, well thought out design and quality that brought Apple back from the brink. Apple CEO Steve Jobs wouldn’t have it any other way.
+7
Jan 2nd, 2010 (11:24 am)I hope we don’t go too far into this Prius bashing. I was a little surprised to see this post. It’s pretty vague and as a few have said, it might be perception and not a failure. It’s mostly speculation.
The Prius can never be bad enough that it makes the Volt good. The Volt has to be good on it’s own and functionally better than the Prius.
We need to stay focused on the Volt.
+1
Jan 2nd, 2010 (11:29 am)I think that the Volt will sell out *without* govt intervention. Given the huge numbers of vehicles already on the road, it’ll take decades before the Voltek platform makes enough of an impact (if ever) to effect our forces overseas. *And I’m an OPTIMIST*!
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
+3
Jan 2nd, 2010 (11:37 am)*********************************************************
I don’t think GM will ever get the reports they deserve from Consumer Reports, but with JD Powers, they have and will continue to do so.
Jan 2nd, 2010 (11:43 am)Very astute observation. Not sure that the “flaws” of the Prius are super serious (that’s what the investigation is for), but it surely points out that the Volt has to be really good on anything that is important and that includes things in the “perception is reality” category.
+2
Jan 2nd, 2010 (11:47 am)I totally agree! The Volt is way better than the Prius and we know it.
I hope GM doesn’t forget us here in the rural Missouri. Yes, we know it’s a lot of highway driving, but we could use vehicles with great fuel efficiency.
By the way, we’re going to the St. Louis Auto Show at the end of the month. Any chances that the Volt will be there and we’ll be able to go inside of one?
I really hope GM brings the Volt to all of the auto shows. They need to give it as much exposure to the public as possible.
+4
Jan 2nd, 2010 (11:48 am)This is the same thing that happened to GM…They used to make great cars and trucks!! Then they got too big for thier britches, lost market share, so on and so forth. Toyota is repeating this cycle for themselves, but at a much faster pace. Toyota hasn’t made a great car for 10 years plus, they are just working on the momentum of all the great cars and trucks of the past!! I predict Toyota will repeat the same drama GM layed out for us in the recent past (if they don’t start getting their act together) Meanwhile GM has finally recognized its fatal flaws, is working on fixing them, and is now back on track to success (if it can MAINTAIN it’s quaility) Peace!!
+3
Jan 2nd, 2010 (11:51 am)What does ANY of this have to do with EEStor’s delivery of working units to ZENN?
Or did they mean “by end of year” 2010?
Darn, I wish that reporter would have remembered to ask them which year!
+2
Jan 2nd, 2010 (11:55 am)=================
Amen
+2
Jan 2nd, 2010 (12:10 pm)Getting everything right on a car is impossible. Engineers would have to be supermen with infinite intelligence. Consider a recall that I got on a ’76 VW Rabbit.
You had to have a left side antenna. Some models had it on the right. You had to have a manual transmission. A grommet that separated the engine compartment from the cab where the antenna cable entered the cab had to have come loose. It had to be raining. You had to have your car in gear and the parking brake had to be off.
What happened was that rain water would run down the antenna wire and, if the wire happened to have a dip in it right above the fuse box, the water could drip down off of the antenna wire on to the fuse box and cause a short that made the starter motor engage. If the car was in gear with no parking brake, the car could lurch forward or backward and possibly cause damage or injury. The grommet was supposed to prevent water from getting in but it could pull out if someone yanked on the the antenna wire.
I can’t imagine anyone thinking this scenario through in advance.
-1
Jan 2nd, 2010 (12:35 pm)Floor mats? Come on.
About the braking, it sounds like they are trying to use an accelerometer to figure out how much regen to use. Thus, when a bump is hit, the accelerometer give some crazy values.
In any case, it will probably be fixed with a software upgrade. No big deal.
I hope people realize we are going to have a lot of problems with Car 2.0. So much new technology is being used for the first time it’s like going to the moon. I’m not exaggerating.
We still haven’t had a battery blow up or something really nasty happen yet. It will.
I’m sure the world will allow these problems to happen without too much crying. It’s kind of like an armchair quarterback telling a Pro what to do. If that armchair person was standing in front of an offensive line of 6 foot plus, 300 lb super humans (just about blocking out the sun) he would probably wet his pants.
So, expect a lot more problems when we get to BEVs and other new renewable technologies. In fact, it’s amazing that there have not been that many problems with all of those Prius’ out there.
Are Toyota’s quality standards going down the toilet? Give me a brake (pun intended).
+2
Jan 2nd, 2010 (12:39 pm)I would imagine GM is preparing to coast down Pikes Peak to make sure this has been programed to not occur.
By the way Dan Petit, since you probably don’t view Fox News, you will be interested to know that Texas is (at the present) the best state in the Nation to find a job.
I would sincerely hope that the upper Midwest would become the new leader in job creation. That would be a gift to them as well as all America
Jan 2nd, 2010 (12:41 pm)You would describe your experience as expecting the failure? How about those people who have experienced it and it was un-expected? You knew what was going to happen, they do not. I give as an example my Chevy Avalanche. The crank engine sensor on the 2002 Avalanche can get to an out of alignment position. What this does is shut the engine down – completely, no warning, no lights no nothing. The first time I experienced this it scared the hell out of me. Once I read up on the problem I experienced it three more times, all of which I was fully aware of what was going on and what I needed to do to control the truck. I had the sensor replaced and have not had the problem since. The “hype” you mention is for those who do not read GM-Volt or other places where the Toyota Prius regen problem may be mentioned, making them aware of it. The hype is for those people who were like me and experience something they should not experience in a production automobile.
+1
Jan 2nd, 2010 (12:48 pm)The Sky is a sporty small car. A poor man’s Corvette. The car review I read on the Sky dinked it for cup holder location, small trunk, and mpg. The Sky is what it is. People wanting to buy a low end sports car are happy with it. Someone with a family of 3.25 isn’t going to warm up to it.
A coworker has a silver Sky. Somehow she’s getting away with no front licence plate. It looks great without one. And very hot as it drives away. There is a yellow Sky in town that looks even better. The reviewing magazines can use a calibration.
I saw a short video from a car review magazine that mentions the Volt. The first comment was, “it has a nice stance”. Let’s see if they follow through like Jay Leno did.
=D~
+2
Jan 2nd, 2010 (12:51 pm)I own a 2003 Prius and I’ve noticed this momentary sense of acceleration between the transition from regen to friction breaks. It has never been a big deal to me.
Jan 2nd, 2010 (12:55 pm)My guess on the braking problem is that it’s either a small issue or a non-issue. The anti-lock brakes on my vehicle (not a Toyota) cause the same sort of ” braking interference”. Once you’re aware of the issue it’s not anything you can’t live with (literally and figuratively).
A much more serious problem is the unintended acceleration problem. The “floor mat” explanation is likely a red herring to keep all the law suits/ bad press at bay.
Modern cars have no mechanical connection from the accelerator pedal to the engine. So if an electronic glitch calls for full power, the driver (and the accelerator pedal) are out of the loop. This can turn into a fatal problem if you can’t (or forget) to go to neutral, the brakes can’t overcome the engine, and you don’t know that you have to “push and hold” the off button for 3 seconds to shut the car down.
I imagine Toyota is not the only manufacturer that has had to or will have to deal with this problem.
Perhaps as cars become more and more electronically controlled, they will all be required to incorporate some sort of emergency stop/override system and make sure the operators are aware of it’s location and how to use it.
Fatal California Crash Highlights Toyota’s Sudden Unintended Acceleration Problem
http://www.safetyresearch.net/2009/09/18/fatal-california-crash-highlights-toyota’s-sudden-unintended-acceleration-problem/
+2
Jan 2nd, 2010 (1:00 pm)Although it does appear likely that there will be some issues for GM to deal with on the Volt initially, I really don’t share your belief that something major like a battery blowing up is likely (or certain – as you suggest). Those batteries have been undergoing stress testing six ways from Sunday for years now – 24/7.
Minor problems? Likely. Catastrophic failure? Extremely unlikely.
We’ll know for sure once the wheels are on the road for a while.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
+1
Jan 2nd, 2010 (1:06 pm)Rob @22
Here are the top ten countries we have trade dificits with. Japan is difinitely in there.
China … US$259.1 billion (up 11.4% from 2006, up 59.9% from 2004)
Japan … $83.1 billion (down 6.1%, up 10.5%)
Mexico … $74 billion (up 15.4%, up 64.4%)
Canada … $65 billion (down 10.7%, down 1%)
Germany … $44.5 billion (down 6.9%, down 2.8%)
Nigeria … $28.9 billion (up 12.5%, up 97.3%)
Venezuela … $28.4 billion (up 0.6%, up 40.4%)
Saudi Arabia … $24.5 billion (up 1.8%, up 57.3%)
Ireland … $21.6 billion (up 7.5%, up 12.5%)
Italy … $20.9 billion (up 3.7%, up 20.4%)
Read more at Suite101: US Global Trade Debt by Country: 2007 American Deficit Statistics for Top Import & Export Partners http://import-export.suite101.com/article.cfm/us_global_trade_debt_by_country#ixzz0bTmIiz8D
-1
Jan 2nd, 2010 (1:14 pm)It’s inevitable.
Once the big battery packs make their way into mass production — there will be fire, there will be electrocution.
But, of course, people get killed or injured from accidents with petrol every single day. It just doesn’t make the national news because it’s common (rare to the individual, common to a group of millions), and unless you’ve got a spectacular “tanker on a bridge” fire, the boob tube zombies (like me) just aren’t interested.
+5
Jan 2nd, 2010 (1:33 pm)Agreed. The Volt has to succeed on it’s own and not hope for Toyota failures. I’m no fan of the Prius, in fact I pretty much loath the car, but it has been quite an accomplishment for Toyota and they do an impressive job of consistently delivering high quality cars and trucks at a reasonable price. They are not the paragons of virtue that Consumer Reports make them out to be, but they are very, very good and the standard that GM needs to shoot for and even exceed.
GM does very well in initial quality and customer satisfaction surveys, but long term is were they become a bit more dodgy. Rattles, squeaks, small component failures, trim pieces coming loose, annoying things like these have been the hall marks of domestic cars for so long. They still need to work on it.
I’m one of the first people in the country to buy the Pontiac Solstice. I followed the development of that car much like we are doing here now. In the case of the Solstice, it was a three year wait. In that time we were assured by Bob Lutz and others that they were taking their time and that with the Solstice, they were “going to get it right.” Now going on my fifth year of ownership, I can tell you that sadly, they fell a bit short. It’s no where near as bad a car as Consumer Reports will tell you, but it has not been flawless.
My Solstice has suffered all the things I have listed above. Under warranty there has been replaced two shock absorbers, a power steering reservoir, instrument lighting dimmer pot and heater control. Only the heater control was an actual failure, the rest were fluid leaks (including the dimmer! A bazaar case of automotive stigmata that baffled everyone!) The rattles and squeaks I have chalked up to the fact that this is a sports car with a stiff suspension and I do drive it in a very sporting manor. My best friends Honda S2000 hasn’t fared much better in this department. The window weather strip that won’t stay fastened, I just live with. It’s no big deal. Now the check engine light is constantly on. We’ll see where that goes…
Having said all that, GM did get much right with this car and I love it a lot. There really is no other car out there that tempts me to trade. Take it from me, when GM executives come out and say “We’re going to get this one right!” take is as just so much PR. There will be hits and misses with the Volt I suspect and we just have to hope for hits and less misses. I don’t think GM has ever released a flawless car. Nor have too many other manufacturers.
The biggest problem with GM cars has been their pursuit of building in profit to each car in the face of rising costs to build the car. Putting the squeeze on your component suppliers is not really a good idea. The extra fasteners and adhesive strips they leave out really do pay off if used. Quick action to correct design flaws and take the loss on already produced parts and tooling is worth it. My hope is for GM, that now that they are supposedly out from under all the crushing liabilities that led to their demise, they can now forgo some small bit of profit on each car and pursue a strategy of quality and durability that will pay dividends in the long run. I think it may be hard for them to shake off the old ways and think in these terms, but time will tell.
-14
Jan 2nd, 2010 (1:34 pm)(click to show comment)
+3
Jan 2nd, 2010 (1:40 pm)Speaking as an engineer who designs controls systems for industrial equipment, there is no way every potential problem can be eliminated. Engineers rack their brains trying to think of every possible situation to plan for, and something always gets overlooked that was not anticipated. Like we say “you can make something idiot-proof, but they keep making better idiots”.
Jan 2nd, 2010 (1:45 pm)Speaking of recalls.. i assume everyone knows about the Corvette recall.
http://wheels.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/12/31/chevrolet-recalling-22000-corvettes-because-roof-may-fly-off/
I still don’t know why this stuff makes national news. I guess it sells papers.
+2
Jan 2nd, 2010 (1:46 pm)If it was just about floormats, Toyota wouldn’t announce that they had to “fix or replace 4 million gas pedals” on recalled vehicles to deal with the unintended acceleration problem. It’s not restricted to the Prius or hybrids, so it’s not about regenerative breaking. And it took them months to even admit they had a problem.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/26/business/26toyota.html?_r=1
-4
Jan 2nd, 2010 (1:50 pm)GM must not release the Volt in 2010, it should produce 1,000 of them and test drive 100,000 miles each and not a single on should have problem, only then the should sell it t the public.
Toyota’s lesson here should be learned.
Jan 2nd, 2010 (1:53 pm)All the more reason to get a fleet of test vehicles in real-world conditions to rack up a few million miles. The folks here somehow spring to mind….
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
+1
Jan 2nd, 2010 (2:01 pm)Unfortunately, “at the present” Fox reports “jobs” as anything, including flipping hamburgers.
I am talking about future technical jobs that pay enough for people to buy Volts. The car you drive, if a 2007 or newer, has controller area network processing. Just having any of four issues in changing a light bulb in the tail light can destroy the automatic transmission. So, all jobs are not the same. Fox media would have you just as content to flip hamburgers
for a low wage. I want you to make far more money than that (and I’ll bet you’re gifted enough to deserve it), and, all I need are people who will listen and have a working knowledge of systems.
If all you want is what Fox wants, that’s perfectly ok too.
Jan 2nd, 2010 (2:03 pm)Thanks for posting that. Some observations. Widespread EV adoption will really help with our trade deficits (particularly if they are made here) Mexico, Canada, Nigeria, Venezuela and Saudi Arabia are all connected to oil consumption. We are now addicted to China like a heroin addict. I really isn’t smart or safe to have too much debt concentrated in one debtor. China is the elephant in the room more people need to talk about. What in the world do we import in great quantities from Ireland and Italy? Why isn’t South Korea in the top ten?
Jan 2nd, 2010 (2:05 pm)Purchase price, maintenance, safety, all around usefulness, residual value at time of trade, . . . it’s going to be very interesting to see how all these factors play out in what I see as the 4 primary paths towards “car 2.0″ (in a world where petrol is no longer cheap).
(in no particular order)
1. Advanced ICE technology
2. Hybrids
3. Plug in Hybrids
4. BEVs
For the next 5 to 10 years, imo:
Hybrids have taken an initial lead, and we’re about to see a push from the BEV’s. Plug in hybrids will play a smaller role (too expensive right now).
The sleeper in the group is advanced ICE (high efficiency, light weight). (i.e. Ford’s Econetic Fiesta is looking like it could return a real world mid 60′s mpg (diesel, not U.S. available, for now).
+2
Jan 2nd, 2010 (2:06 pm)But this is not the media attacking the Prius because it’s new and different. If that were the case, they would have attacked ages ago. They loved the Prius for years. This is about the Prius finally being affected by Toyota’s numerous quality control issues that have been in the news lately.
There were major rust problems with the the Tundra’s pick-up truck. And, the Tacoma last year.)
http://wheels.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/10/08/safety-agency-is-looking-into-rust-issue-on-toyota-tundra/?scp=3&sq=toyota%20rust&st=cse
Toyota only issued a recall two months after Traffic safety administration started investigating. And they only issued it in colder states so if you need to drive from Florida to New England in the winter on a regular basis, you’re out of luck.
http://wheels.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/11/25/toyota-is-recalling-tundras-for-rust-problem/?scp=1&sq=toyota%20rust&st=cse
Now there are stalling problems with Carolla’s and Matrixes
http://wheels.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/12/07/stalling-problems-on-toyota-corolla-and-matrixes-leads-to-investigation/?scp=2&sq=toyota%20gas%20pedals&st=cse
And then there are the accelerator problems mentioned by Lyle…
Basically, it sounds to me like Toyota’s “superior quality” is a thing of past. They got too big, and stopped paying attention to things like quality control.
Jan 2nd, 2010 (2:10 pm)OT, but isn’t this the way the government counts jobs?
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
Jan 2nd, 2010 (2:16 pm)You make a good case. I honestly haven’t followed any of the news about Toyota. To me they are a little like baseball – I’m just not interested. Sounds like I should start to pay more attention to cars other than the Volt.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
+1
Jan 2nd, 2010 (2:23 pm)Ireland is basically about pharmaceuticals. All our drug companies set up manufacturing there since they get better tax treatment. (Basically, they’re exhibit a for why we need to reduce our corporate income tax.) Italy also exports pharmaceuticals. But they also sell us wine, clothing, shoes, furniture, sunglasses and other luxury goods. Not to mention tourism…
But I agree that China is the major issue. Our trade deficit with them is twice as large as with the next country on the list. Also, many countries run trade surpluses with us to balance their trade deficits with China. A large part of China’s trade surplus is from goods produced by American (and Japanese and European) companies in China.
Jan 2nd, 2010 (2:24 pm)Ahh, come on, can’t we have a little fun?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L_GgrNGkDNY
I say, I say, it’s a joke son.
+1
Jan 2nd, 2010 (2:40 pm)On further review, I’d like to “recall” this part of my post.
Although throttle by wire doesn’t involve a mechanical connection to the ECU, I don’t know that there isn’t still some mechanical connection at the accelerator pedal that could resolve the problem by prying the accelerator pedal up with your foot, should this occur. Probably best to exercise any and all options in a rapid manner should you find yourself careening down the interstate at 100 mph in a runaway car.
Jan 2nd, 2010 (2:40 pm)Yes, Fox may have so much to report that that is the best Fox can broadcast, but there is a distiction between unskilled labor and skilled trained labor that might be valid here for higher income needed. Don’t you think?
+1
Jan 2nd, 2010 (2:50 pm)add,
I had this happen to me in a 65 mustang (nothing electronic about it, bad motor mounts). It was pretty exciting.
Jan 2nd, 2010 (2:58 pm)OT: Of *course* there is a difference between skilled and unskilled labor, but both are necessary. My remark was in reference to the government’s (apparent) desperation to count all the jobs credited to the various stimulus funding.
And now, back to the Volt!
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
Jan 2nd, 2010 (2:59 pm)LOL! Well they certainly are to get credit for Volt jobs!!
Jan 2nd, 2010 (3:07 pm)Your brakes will always win over your engine (unless you also have a brake failure)
-1
Jan 2nd, 2010 (3:10 pm)Not if you are going 60 mph already, like that terrible tragedy with the trooper and his family in that Lexus. That was really horrific (IMTO).
Jan 2nd, 2010 (3:20 pm)Hey, big DanP is in the house, bringing more “color” to the thread.
How ya doin’ Dan?
+1
Jan 2nd, 2010 (3:20 pm)Well, I’m not saying this is a good thing, but It sounds to me like Toyota might have left a hole wide enough for GM (but realistically more likely Ford and Hyundai) take advantage of.
This is GM’s chance, and, IMHO, they need to build the safest most problem free cars they possibly can. They need to learn from Toyota’s mistakes. (And they’re own.)
Jan 2nd, 2010 (3:24 pm)Your experience with the Mustang would have been far more than just “interesting” to me, especially since it has only drum brakes. How fast were you going when that happened?
Jan 2nd, 2010 (3:32 pm)All car makers have recalls. In fact a quick google search showed GM had the most in 2009 at 17 recall events. So lets not throw stones at Toyota from our glass house.
Jan 2nd, 2010 (3:39 pm)It’s not at all meant to throw stones, Jaime, it’s meant for us to learn. No automaker can make a perfect auto. But if we help each other to know how things can be avoided, maybe we can save a life at some point in the future. Toyota, Ford, and the rest all do the very best they can at the time of design for the materials they had to work with at the time.
When introducing a new seminar in auto diagnostics, even if someone is frustrated about learning to diagnose a car when I am teaching them, I take that as a way to just understand that that tech wants to learn, and has not had expected success in his previous methods. So, we are sincerely only trying to learn here, and, this particular topic is really important for the safety of all of us.
(Especially important to know at the moment is carcus1′s speed in his Mustang for when the accelerator stuck.)
Jan 2nd, 2010 (3:45 pm)That was a long time ago.
As I recall, I was on a 4 lane avenue and punched it at about 30 mph, I probably got to 70 mph by the time I figured it out. I don’t think those old brakes put up much of a fight against the 289 (one foot on the brake, one foot desperately prying at the throttle). I remember thinking about neutral but didn’t want to blow the motor, . . afterwards I realized the first reaction should have been to just shut the ignition off.
Jan 2nd, 2010 (3:53 pm)If you are going 60mph already then it depends on the car.
Jan 2nd, 2010 (3:54 pm)I’m glad you were fortunate and had the brakes in excellent condition. When the adrenaline is pumping, we can’t just go down a systematic checklist unless we mentally reherse it when we are sitting in the car.
You did a good job.
I’ve found that down through the decades of keeping track of sticking accelerator causes, is that they are all differently caused.
Talking about it today helps all OEM engineers to be reminded of the different scenarios that they, being younger engineers who might not have had any experience with a 65 Mustang, to just hear about that particular scenario, and possibly, have those real possibilities in mind when doing the designs. Computer aided designs can’t “see” these possibilities like our shared experiences can inform. Thanks.
Jan 2nd, 2010 (3:54 pm)The problem with that trooper is that he overheated the brakes.. if he had just stomped on them the car would have stopped, instead kept pumping them for some reason. Perhaps he did not understand that brakes can overheat and there is a very limited amount of braking performance in most non-sport vehicles.
-1
Jan 2nd, 2010 (3:57 pm)The HSD in the third generation is different.
Here is the diagram for the third generation:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:THS_evol_3.png
Note that it has additional gearing compared to the original HSD:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:THS_evol_2.png
The fact that this did not occur in the first and second generation is not relevant. The two systems are significantly different and Toyota may have a problem with the new design rather than problems caused by lower production costs.
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
-2
Jan 2nd, 2010 (4:04 pm)It did. You misread the posts.
The sensation and circumstances which it can be triggered got reduced from generation 2 to 3.
+2
Jan 2nd, 2010 (4:10 pm)Breaking News
post 53 and 57.
I ASSUME it was an oversight by you that you did not predict thousands of Leaf batterys exploding and burning people. And I am sure you think the Leaf has allready built 1000 cars and has driven them each 100,000 miles.
Or is it possible that you want the Volt to fail? And will say anything to try to slow sales.
Jan 2nd, 2010 (4:11 pm)I get the impression many of the problems have been traced to American manufactured Toyotas, and steps have been taken to fix the situation.. the recent senior management “retirements” in Toyota USA.
-2
Jan 2nd, 2010 (4:14 pm)The burning of bridges here is scary sometimes. Advancing battery production and electric propulsion acceptance is a monumental challenge.
Do those particular Volt supporters want to take on the entire traditional market alone, without any ally?
Of course, is starts by not calling something unexpected a failure. Remember, the same thing can come back to bite you later…
+1
Jan 2nd, 2010 (4:16 pm)The gearing and motor changes have nothing to do with the regen and friction braking blending.
Jan 2nd, 2010 (4:26 pm)I dont see how GM or Toyota can ever fix this problem 100%, regen braking is electronic and fly-by-wire by its nature.. a fuse blows and your regen braking is gone.. fortunately you still have the purely mechanical friction brakes but there will always be a scary feeling when one fails and the other takes over.
This is similar to the brake booster failing on a conventional car, suddenly the brake pedal requires a lot more pressure to stop the car, but it still works.
Jan 2nd, 2010 (4:34 pm)Another note on brake failure “emergency procedures”.
If you ever do find yourself without brakes, don’t forget you’ve got an emergency brake (a.k.a. parking brake). But it’s probably best to downshift before applying.
http://www.wisegeek.com/is-a-parking-brake-the-same-as-an-emergency-brake.htm
+2
Jan 2nd, 2010 (4:47 pm)Runaway throttle:
1. Stomp on brake and hold.
2. Turn ignition off (up to 3 seconds with pushbutton may be required)
Failed brakes:
1. Downshift
2. Apply emergency brake
Failed steering:
1. Stomp on brake and hold
2. Continue screaming until vehicle comes to stop
Jan 2nd, 2010 (4:56 pm)I must admit that in the past I didn’t read all the posts before making a comment and regretted it. lol
Was the redesigned HSD for the third generation done to correct the problem in gen 1 or 2? I was thinking that if Toyota did have problems with the original design, that would be the reason for the change in the 3rd generation.
By the way, while doing a search for HSD, I discovered your website on the Prius. Haven’t looked at much of it but will when I get a chance I will. Looks pretty nice from what I can see. Maybe when you get a Volt, you will be creating pages for it.
At any rate, I will have to go back and find my original comment about the interactive HSD diagram.
Happy trails to you ’til we meet agan
Jan 2nd, 2010 (5:10 pm)This regenerative braking issue is another blow to Toyota.
The floor mat debacle was a way for Toyota to cover up the issue with what was actually caused by accelerator pedals, and blame the consumer for the company’s error.
http://www.abcnews.go.com/Video/playerIndex?id=8982147
Jan 2nd, 2010 (5:40 pm)You should put the car in nuetral & mash the brakes.
Jan 2nd, 2010 (5:53 pm)And scream. (g)
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
Jan 2nd, 2010 (6:01 pm)and dont lock the steering by turning the key all the way.. but that may not apply to new cars anymore.
Jan 2nd, 2010 (6:07 pm)>> All I am saying is GM should proceed with caution, not to rush the Chevy Volt, in fact, GM can’t test the Volt for 100,000 miles (purely EV) before Dec, 2010. I personally know the folks inside GM who doubt the program, one of them is a fat guy with many years experience (he is white, >45y old) who said “it is a joke”.
In the case of Nissan, no one know for sure if their vehicle can last 5y w/o battery change, but as far as I know, the car is sold w/o battery, you rent the battery.
Any honest battery scientist will tell you it is prudent to move with caution, as you see here, people complain about brakes, you will see much more failure from battery due to all kinds of driving conditions. Also keep in mind that vast majority claim in the battery field are purely bullshit.
BTW, Tesla had trouble with their Saudi investors when the vehicle’s EV range is less than 50 miles when tested by the Saudi investor.
Most people here have good intention, but will hurt GM in the long run. The truth will come out one day!
Jan 2nd, 2010 (6:17 pm)John, Thank you for the thoughtful and detail explanation. I have a 2007 Prius and feel like I have had the same experience. When I am braking and go over a bump, it feels like the brakes are not engaged at all for something like 0.5 seconds. This does not sound like much, but it feels like forever when it is happening. I always thought it was some issue with the ABS rather than the regen vs. friction brakes.
So this is a negative for the Prius, but it does not happen very often and does not seem like it would create an accident.
On the plus side, the Toyota has a nice setup with the regen where it can be engaged both from taking your foot off of the accelerator petal and by lightly pressing on the brakes. This is better than most companies trying to setup regen.
Jan 2nd, 2010 (6:21 pm)The NSC mentions shift to neutral and not turning the key too far.
It’s debatable,
But I’d rather keep an emergency procedure as simple as possible.
The car may not want to come out of gear with a load on it from full throttle. You could be wasting valuable seconds while you’re wrestling with the shifter.
The National Safety Commission Alerts
Toyota Runaway Engines
http://www.nationalsafetycommission.com/alerts/2009/11/several-instances-have-been-reported.php
/another advantage of my two step procedure is that most of us could find the brake and the ignition switch with our eyes fully on the road, shift lever to neutral will probably take a little looking.
Jan 2nd, 2010 (6:49 pm)The NSC Alert actually makes it sound like if you get runaway engine, then you very well could be effed.
The very first course of action they tell you to do is look for a crash sight.
Sprinkled along the way are the indicators that you are indeed effed.
- “Brakes May be Ineffective”
- “If unable to shift to neutral..”
- “Most Toyotas are programmed to prevent accidental shut off of the engine while the vehicle is in motion.”
Nice.
Christine
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aJ5M11m9vI0
+5
Jan 2nd, 2010 (6:59 pm)Those of us who support the Volt hope that Toyota identifies and fixes whatever problems exist with the Prius braking system, and does so soon. We don’t want people who are pioneering purchasers of high-tech cars to be having these scary surprises. Those of us who will be joining the pioneers (soon, we hope) do not want to be tarnished, however illogically, by the flow-over of concerns about regenerative braking systems.
The Prius is a good car, so let us wish it success, and then hope that people like the Volt even more. After all, the huge majority of the car market so far remains in traditional cars, so there are a lot of people who can be sold.
Jan 2nd, 2010 (7:22 pm)Well-said. +1 I think that there will be several successful approaches to the transition away from oil. We’re about to see a very exciting slice of history.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
Jan 2nd, 2010 (7:34 pm)The technical thoughtfulness today is really enjoyable, helpful, and illuminating for us all. I’d bet OEM’s are also interested in how reactions post here for everything discussed (even seemingly OT content too).
New Years Predictions anyone?
From here;
1. 2010 has all the signs of an exceptional year for our adjusted economy(ies)/budgets.
2. I have a hunch that GM will have some modestly good news about the price of a basic Volt, and, another hunch that it will be sometime around the first of July. (Ahem).
3. GM will authorize a modest increase in volume production of Volt.
4. Lyle will have some extremely good news to share with us in Sept. 2010.
5. Other OEM’s will announce EREV models in substantial detail.
What are your predictions?
Jan 2nd, 2010 (7:37 pm)Consumer reports recently did an article on what to do if your gas gets stuck. They mentioned several things but the number one thing was to simply put the car into neutral. Do that first and the rest should be gravy.
Hawk
+1
Jan 2nd, 2010 (8:07 pm)Ahhh, the penultimate game of speculation!
I predict that GM will actually become *less* transparent regarding the Volt’s progress for the next three months.
Shortly after the spring mileage testing, it will be confirmed that the Volt’s AER 40, will be a *robust* 40 and that the Volt can easily achieve AER 50. The CS mode mpg will have been found to be greater than 45 mpg. And best of all, that the sticker price will be much closer to 35K than 40K.
Heck, while I’m at it, I might as well predict the Independence Day launch of a fleet of test vehicles (at least 2 or 3 hundred), to be put in the hands of regular folks to drive until the actual November release date.
These predictions should all “consider the *source*! (lol).
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
Jan 2nd, 2010 (8:14 pm)It’s always a pleasure to be out optimisted (“optimisted??”) by you Tag. Your predictions sound far better than mine, and thusly I hope I’m wrong in favor of you being right. (lol) And, I hope that I am forced to concede my predictions as insufficient!! If anyone can make these extraordinarily-optimistically sorts of things happen it would be Mr. Whitacre.
Jan 2nd, 2010 (8:32 pm)Hope GM is paying attention to the problems other car manufaturers are facing & take action to ensure that Volt has the highest quality ..alas past indicates that GM may fumble again unless there is a maniac attention to the production quality ..
Jan 2nd, 2010 (8:33 pm)Actually, all of my predictions were already in place before Mr. Whitacre came on board! (lol) They have been part of the larger plan of “under-promise, over-deliver”.
And I agree with you 100% – I hope you’re wrong (lol).
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
+2
Jan 2nd, 2010 (8:33 pm)*************************************************************
Not so. You evidently did not put a Google search, because if you had, this is the kind of results you would find. The amount of recalls is counted by the amount of vehicles, not by the amount of incidents.
http://www.leftlanenews.com/toyota-tops-all-others-for-recalls-in-2009.html
+1
Jan 2nd, 2010 (8:52 pm)On those supporting/defending the 2010 Prius over the potential braking issue…
Consider that 20+ people in less than a year felt the need to file a form with the NHTSA about this issue.
Now, I’m not a psychologist, but typically when you have a significant population going out of there way to file forms about an issue… there is an issue.
Yes, Toyota’s sold 100,000 of them, but in terms of customer years the car we are talking less than 50,000 customer years and already 20+ people are willing to find a form and fill it out… which probably means they have experienced the issue alot and already tried going to the dealer/other support areas.
Personally, even if the brakes disengage for 0.5 seconds, thats a liability concern for Toyota. Because now that Americans know about it, the next time a Prius owner clips a mailbox, or goes 1/2 into an intersection and is hit… out comes the “I was trying to stop, but my cars brakes didn’t work quite right” card.
Jan 2nd, 2010 (9:03 pm)Regenerative braking ain’t new.
Jan 2nd, 2010 (9:05 pm)After dropping me off at work today my wife took our 07 Prius in for it’s 90,000 mile service. We have had zero maintenance problems so far. We have changed tires and wiper blades and all required service according to the manual. BTW the original brakes still work fine. The dealer service rep. told my wife, they recommend a transmission and brake fluid flush for and additional 300 something dollars. My wife called me and I told her to have them show you where this is recommended in our manual. He came back and said they must have made a change in the price it’s now 100 dollars. Since he couldn’t show her in the manual that it needed those fluids flushed we didn’t have them do that My issue with Toyota is their so called recommendations before they even inspect your car and I also can’t stand their sales people.
Jan 2nd, 2010 (9:10 pm)Things that make you go “hmmm”,
http://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/complaints/index.cfm
Jan 2nd, 2010 (9:15 pm)Hmmmm.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
Jan 2nd, 2010 (10:15 pm)If you live in a hot climate, say like here in Austin where last Summer, we had 68 days over one hundred degrees, that was the equivalent of three hot Summers on all fluids. But also, at your 90,000 miles, it is an excellent idea to have the transmission fluid completely flushed with the original OEM chemistry. This is especially true if the fluid comes out Black.
When removing the dipstick, at 90,000 miles, if it looks a clear-grayish color when looking at that thin film of fluid, it will really come out Black when removed at larger volumes. You indeed ought to have that fluid changed. If it is brown, same thing, have it changed. If it looks dark red on the dipstick, have it changed. At 90,000 miles anyway, have it changed.
If the coolant was never changed, then the acid buildup will ruin the seal in the water pump.
The more cold and humid your location, the more likely you ought to have the brake fluid flushed out also. Especially if mold is growing in the fluid as it turns green, there is likely water accumulation in it, and that can ruin ABS valves, equalizer valves, etc.
The service department probably was offering to only do the pan fluid amount for the $100 (which is a life-saving measure to buy you a little time as it is just a partial change, but far far better than none).
I would not perceive an inconsistency about the lowered price. It is likely that there may be higher risk to the transmission at this point of mileage and wear, and, the service department is just doing their job in attempting to save your transmission for you.
I change the transmission fluid in my Element every 20,000 miles.
All the other fluids get changed never later than 30,000 miles.
No way I am going to have to shell out $2800 for a new trans.
I drive 18,000 a year in the very hot Texas heat, most of it very hot transmission fluid miles. So, I make sure I baby that vehicle.
+1
Jan 2nd, 2010 (10:37 pm)Since we’re in a somewhat Toyota Prius bashing mode, I found this on one of the Toyota websites:
http://www.toyota.co.jp/en/tech/environment/hsd/pdf/a_guide_to_hsd.pdf
On page of 4 of this pdf, a comparison chart of hybrid systems, shows series and parallel hybrids as somewhat unfavorable in continuous high output and the series hybrid as somewhat unfavorable in acceleration. Hmmmm …. Volt, 0-60 mph in 9 seconds: Prius, 0-60 mph in 12.5 seconds (10.1 for 2009 model) .
I think Toyota needs to correct the errors in its chart. Makes me laugh. Come-on, let the best car win!
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
Jan 2nd, 2010 (10:46 pm)I didn’t say they would be common, only that they will happen. If you think there will be NO major problems with ANY EV then that is even more unlikely. In fact, it’s nearly an impossibility. Remember, we still have gasoline cars going up in smoke just about every day.
With energy comes activity. Some of it good, some of it bad.
Jan 2nd, 2010 (10:48 pm)Exactly. It’s amazing what us humans can get accustomed to.
Jan 2nd, 2010 (10:57 pm)115 Dan P. Thank you for your advice, it gets pretty hot here in tucson as well. I have become very skepticalconcerning what some shops recommend verses what the manual lists. I don’t know if the trans fluid requirements are the same for CVT’s or not. I think I will have my wife pull the trans dip stick to look at the color of the fluid. I was thinking the brake fluid might also last longer with the help of regen brakes. I wish they would make these recommendations when I make the appointment and get the estimate instead of springing it when my wife brings the car in.
Jan 2nd, 2010 (11:09 pm)I’m very comfortable with what I posted (as opposed to your version of it).
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
Jan 2nd, 2010 (11:22 pm)The auto companies have been wanting to get away from mechenical links i.e hydrolic brakes, and rack and pinon steering, and the feds step in and mandate they must use formentioned links. I’m sure Toyota is not totaly reliant of the formentioned links, but I think there is some “pure” electric linking going on.. Maybe I’m wrong…..
Jan 3rd, 2010 (12:05 am)The Prius is actually a “Series-Parallel” hybrid, which is different from a Parallel hybrid:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Series_hybrid#Series_hybrid
To be clear, I’m not really a GM fan. I’m a fan of any car that:
• runs on gas or electricity
• has at least 30 miles of all-electric range
• is built by a major car maker
• is real, with an announced production date
Right now, the Volt is the only car that does this. And for that, GM has earned my respect…
Jan 3rd, 2010 (12:20 am)I’d also add that GM’s transparency throughout the Volt’s development, has been a huge plus.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
Jan 3rd, 2010 (12:53 am)Night all.
BBL
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
Jan 3rd, 2010 (1:37 am)If you look at the link I gave, it shows “series”, “parallel”, AND “series/parallel hybrid (Prius)”!
How Toyota is claiming that series/parallel is superior is beyond me. All the performance stats of the Volt surpass the Prius.
I should have also mentioned that the Volt can reach a top speed of over 100 mph while the top speed of the Prius in electric mode is 42 mph: sorry I mislead you by not mentioning that Toyota claims that series/parallel is superior!?!
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
Jan 3rd, 2010 (1:48 am)If someone built a series/parallel drive system with big battery and powerful electric motor, it would rival the Volt.
Here’s an example:
http://gm-volt.com/2009/09/01/mercedes-bluezero-e-cell-plus-extended-range-electric-car-to-go-into-limited-production-in-2010/
They call this “near series”, which means the ICE is still connected to the wheels.
Too bad they haven’t announced a real production date. Also, the power of the electric motor is still wimpy compared to the Volt, so 0-60 is 11 seconds. But 62 miles AER is nice.
Jan 3rd, 2010 (3:01 am)Well, see, that’s the problem when you have an otherwise predictable regeneration system.
My Accord Hybrid frequently (capriciously it seems 
) decides whether or not to regen brake or assist. So, the brake pedal feel is always kind of arbitrary, sometimes slowing as you tap it and sometimes not. But since the regen is pretty small with the small electric motor it’s really not as big an effect as I may make it sound. I think it probably would be totally disconcerting if the regen quit in a vehicle with much more powerful regen.
Jan 3rd, 2010 (6:01 am)How about using the two motor approach that Saab took? A whole nother axle braking would give the anti-lock system more options during wheel hop. It would also help the Camaro and Mustang beating performance side of the coin as well.
Jan 3rd, 2010 (8:34 am)I like to coast I hope regen can be shut off.
Jan 3rd, 2010 (8:44 am)How about 4 motors?
http://www.pmlflightlink.com/motors/hipa_faq.html
http://www.pmlflightlink.com/archive/news_lightning.html
Jan 3rd, 2010 (10:15 am)Well this post tells me that GM is absolutely on the right track to keep Volt sales to 10,000 for the first year.
As much as I want one, getting it right is paramount.
Jan 3rd, 2010 (10:20 am)Amen!
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
Jan 3rd, 2010 (11:16 am)[...] Braking Loss on Prius Hybrids It looks like the GM Volt forum is jumping of the band wagon. Third Generation Toyota Prius Regenerative Brakes Flawed? I'm kinda #&^%$ off that this is getting blown out of proportion in that the media and other [...]
Jan 3rd, 2010 (11:18 am)[...] Poll: Are Prius brakes a problem? It looks like the GM Volt forum is jumping on the band wagon. http://gm-volt.com/2010/01/02/third-generation-toyota-prius-regenerative-brakes-flawed/ I'm kinda #&^%$ off that this is getting blown out of proportion in that the media and other [...]
Jan 3rd, 2010 (11:51 am)I, and I bet most of you, have had a handle break of a cup. A cup with a handle. Can it get any more simpler? A car has thousands of parts and now when you include software “parts” it has 10′s of thousands perhaps even millions. A few handles are going to fall off. I don’t expect perfection and how many imperfections I am willing to tolerate depends upon how much I like the car itself. If I love the Volt then I will tolerate a few anoyances and perhaps even become enamored with some of them. It is much like a women… I’ld better stop.
Jan 3rd, 2010 (3:34 pm)This sounds like an over zealous ABS system. Subaru has had the same issue with the impreza and on the crap roads out here in Nevada, our ABS on all our cars engages INCREASING the stopping distance whenever we hit the melted pavement ripples.
ABS is NOT a perfect solution for everyone.
On a gravel road, ABS increases our stopping distance by about 4 times in a panic stop.
Jan 3rd, 2010 (5:32 pm)I can handle this too, but I need to add something..
The brakes better work EVERY time I depress the pedal, if it’s your kid that runs out in front of me, in hot pursuit of a basketball, and I can’t stop… Can you see the lawsuit?
Jan 4th, 2010 (9:38 am)You guys are all being stupid. Look at how biased the comments are. There is nothing wrong with the brakes on the Toyota. Any vehicle with STRONG EFFICIENT REGENERATION will do this!
You will all see when you get your Volts…
Jan 4th, 2010 (3:36 pm)From the general description, I have had a similar sensation with my ABS on my Olds alero. When traveling on a gravel road with repetitive grooving in the road when I apply the brakes the ABS will kick in and it feels like I have very little braking or none at all. My preference would be to have no ABS because I can feel the friction from the locking up wheel(s) on the gravel and it does stop sooner in that environment..
Jan 4th, 2010 (5:08 pm)I’m not sure I agree that it SHOULD do that. What is important to the driver is the consistency of pedal feel. If a driver gets used to pushing the brake pedal X hard to get Y deceleration 99 out of 100 times and then the 100th time it doesn’t do that, it’s hard to drive. If the hydraulic system and regeneration system can’t be consolidated into a consistent “feel” then they should put in a big dump resistor to make the “regen” part consistent even if there is no battery capacity left for regeneration storage. The stronger the regeneration, the more important it is to do that to preserve brake pedal consistency. Relying on the driver to have attention to spare to compensate for the irregularities of the system is not going to end up well.
-1
Jan 5th, 2010 (1:11 pm)Oragato Mr. Moto:
Toyota has a severe problem across the whole model line, but to make this public would be racist? Instead let us blame the driver and driver error. Wake up people why in the world would any intelligent person buy a new Toyota, why not buy a gun instead and put one round in the chamber and play Toyota roulette. I have talked to people with new Toyotas and they are clueless as to what is going on, they just give me the typical blank deer in the headlight stare, just don’t rear end me with your defective Toyota while Im driving my Chevy I will sue you and Toyota for every penny I can get.
Jan 6th, 2010 (1:40 pm)I drive a 2008 Prius and have this issue constantly. I’d say at least once a month. There was a time when I’d have the issue every day in the exact same spot on my way home from work. I’ve since changed my driving habits to avoid this brake slippage (by braking harder) at this spot. Guess it’s not just me…
Jan 6th, 2010 (5:26 pm)Why am I not surprised that Dagwood55 has not commented on this annoying little inconvenient truth?
Jan 6th, 2010 (10:45 pm)I have the thrid Generation Prius w/ solar roof that I purchased in June. I have noticed several times since then the braking problems. They have generally occurred when I brake right on top of a sharp bump. The brake will go out and the car jumps forward. I have not tried to reproduce it since it has happened different places and usually when I don’t expect it. I am not going fast at the time, I have already starting braking. After hearing about the “lurching forward of the 2010 Pruis w/ braking” on TV, I took my car to a large, local Northern California Toyota dealer where I purchased my car.
The service manager test drove it and said he thought he felt it when driving it over railroad tracks. He told me to come back two days later (today) when their Pruis “expert” was in. I brought the car back in and was told “the car was acting like it should with its’ abs brake system”, everything was ok, nothing wrong w/ it. He didn’t test drive it. This was his opinion. He said they have not had any complaints.
What next steps do you recommend I take to have the issue addressed? Thank you for your feedback – Kate
Jan 6th, 2010 (11:11 pm)Wow, how’s THAT for customer service! I wish I had an answer for your situation, but the best I can offer is to go back and talk to someone higher up the food chain at that dealership – like the owner. You purchased a vehicle from him and if he wants repeat business he should know what’s going on in his shop (if he doesn’t already).
I saw your post on this thread under the “recent posts” section, but once the thread for the day is “over”, most people don’t go back to previous threads. I didn’t want you to think that you were being ignored. If you want more replies to your problem, just post it on the current thread (people do it all the time) and maybe a Prius owner can help.
Be well,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
Jan 6th, 2010 (11:52 pm)Unfortunately, I don’t really have any solution for you either. As Tagamet suggested, I would try the owner of the dealership, and explain your situation. You might want to bring a guy with you. (My friends tell me it helps when dealing with some dealerships.)
If the owner won’t help you, I would call Toyota customer service directly. They also have a vested interest in keeping you as a customer. And they certainly don’t need any more bad pr right now.
Jan 7th, 2010 (12:18 am)Thanks, LauraM. Good advise!
Be well,
Tagamet
/I’m turning in soon, night-night
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
Jan 7th, 2010 (8:03 am)Kate,
First, I am not an expert in auto repair, nor a Prius owner, but am good at software debugging. You need to help the dealership to differentiate this “intermittent bug” from the “normal ABS quirks”. The two MAY be related or not. When a tech tells you it is normal, OK that is just an annoyance, but you have to make a case for your situation being life threatening. Two entirely different situations. And while it is a little disgusting to “have to bring a male representative” with you, maybe it is worthwhile.
You might even try calling Click and Clack on NPR.
Jan 7th, 2010 (11:01 am)My three Toyota’s are extremely reliable. Two have over 260k miles and still going strong. All I ever have to do is annual maintenance. Toyota is the big gorilla in the hybrid market. GM is picking Toyota’s fleas and hoping with crossed fingers that the Volt will have similar reliability.
Jan 12th, 2010 (11:58 pm)Yes, gonna be awesome. The Volt’s coming out this year! Check it out: http://www.kaycircle.com/index.php?q=What-is-the-Chevy-Volt-release-date