Famous comedian and car enthusiast Jay Leno had the chance to check out and test drive an advanced Chevy Volt prototype earlier this month in California. He was given a tour and test drive of the car by its chief engineer Andrew Farah.
The video has been posted over at Jay Leno’s Garage and can be viewed at the bottom of the post.
Jay seemed pleased and impressed with the car. He is a particular fan of electric cars, and owns a 1908 Baker electric that he gave Farah a ride in, and showed off a 1916 Owens Magnetic that is actually a gas-powered electric car. Leno also liked his EV-1 which he pointed out Farah was an engineer of.
Farah went through with Leno the basic premise of the Volt’s 40 mile electric range and unlimited gas driving ability after those electric miles were depleted. He explained how the car has both a D and L mode, with the latter producing more intense regenerative drag for one-pedalled driving, and a normal and sports mode with the latter giving an extra 30 horsepower.
Th effect of cold weather and accessory load was discussed. Farah agreed these would reduce range, and stated “everyone will get a different amount of range,” based on these variables.
Jay got into the car and looked over the interior, and noted the car was actually pretty big. Once driving he said “all you hear is the wind and maybe the tires.”
He said it was “eerily quiet yet strangely familiar”
When directly confronted by Leno, Farah admitted the Volt weighs 3900 pounds.
In the end Leno told Farah, “you’ve done a wonderful job on this car.”
“I really think this is the breakthrough car,” said Leno. “And its American technology and it was developed right here in Detroit.”
“Take one for a test drive,” he advised his audience. “I think you will like it…pretty cool.”
+7
Dec 29th, 2009 (12:24 am)Jay can being a lot of attention to the Volt.
-11
Dec 29th, 2009 (12:35 am)(click to show comment)
Dec 29th, 2009 (12:42 am)I just saw the video and the Volt looks like it’s pretty quick. When Jay accelerated, the car Volt just took off.
+4
Dec 29th, 2009 (12:50 am)Excellent video!
No crazy claims, just an honest evaluation.
I imagine that Jay will have one of the first available…..
PS: I hope everyone had a wonderful Christmas holiday!
+6
Dec 29th, 2009 (1:03 am)3900lbs!?!?!?!?
Great goooogly moooogly!!!!
+3
Dec 29th, 2009 (1:05 am)I still want one!
+2
Dec 29th, 2009 (1:06 am)Hey look on the bright side, it will probably ride like a Caddy….smooth!
+1
Dec 29th, 2009 (1:48 am)This is a little off subject but……it’s a video about a guy who took an old car and made it electric, first with lead-acid batteries, then changed over to lithion-ion (by A123). Here’s the thing, he took it to the drag strip and set several records….1/4 mile, 11.4 seconds, 110 mph!
http://www.opb.org/programs/ofg/videos/view/56-Electric-Drag-Racing
+2
Dec 29th, 2009 (2:23 am)The two motors and inverters must be heavier than we thought.
The Raser P200 motor weighs 246lbs, it is rated 100kw continuous and 200kw peak. Probably double the size of the Volts traction motor.
The Raser G100 generator is rated 100kw continous and weighs 172lbs, so perhaps the Volts generator will be 85lbs.
The PCU-200 dual inverter can handle a 100kw motor and a 100kw generator continous, weight is 80lbs.
So adding it up it is 290lbs.. I have not accounted for the charger and cabling, but it cant be much.
How much was the Cruze supposed to weigh?
Dec 29th, 2009 (3:42 am)Not sure what you are getting at here.
First you can’t scale weights that way, The Volt motor/generator would weigh at least 3/4 the weight of a twice more powerful version. The Raser motor may be more efficient bringing the difference to even less. Raser, Tesla, and Hi-Pa all claim about 2 HP/lb, more than double most car electric motors and more than 4 times regular electric motors. Don’t know about the Volt motor.
Second you mention nothing about the weight of the batteries, 400 lbs, I think.
Dec 29th, 2009 (3:48 am)Andrew said “we have a 240v charger available”
I sense that statement inplies extra $ for the “big” charger.
A Heavier frame/chassis to carry the extra drive system components should also be factored into the 3900# total.
+2
Dec 29th, 2009 (3:54 am)Does someone know what the production capacity of the Hamtramck plant is? I think I read about 200,000+ /yr. I understand their desire to start production slow and ramp up, but don’t understand why it should take more than 6 months to get up to full production. I got the idea from posts about the LA show that GM was only going to make 10,000/yr for 2011 and 2012.
Am I correct?
I am concerned that GM may treat the Volt like the EV1, use it for PR and green credentials, but not seriously market it. Ed Whitacre is a board member of ExxonMobil, and they would want GM to keep promoting gas cars as long as possible. It was ExxonMobil that sued CARB and forced them to drop the requirements for zero pollution cars, and GM immediately followed up with crushing all the EV1s.
Dec 29th, 2009 (5:31 am)Quick, sign me up for the Baker Electric. Didn’t Tweeties old granny drive a Baker Electric ? Jay’s garage is quite spectacular. I hope the little old grannies don’t try to put the gas in the electric outlet
+7
Dec 29th, 2009 (5:54 am)Very nice presentation. Thank you Jay and Andrew.
=D~
+1
Dec 29th, 2009 (7:30 am)for something of this size (4,500mm IIRC) a weight of ~1400kgs would be normal, so 1769kgs is not so bad. Sure, less weight would be nice, but if you made the car smaller it would still have all the heavy items (ICE, generator-motor, traction motor, BATTERY) and it quickly becomes a two seater, which makes it totally impractical as a households only vehicle.
G2 will be heavier, crash standards are always getting tougher.
+5
Dec 29th, 2009 (7:34 am)Not sure many people would need a 240v charger. Only 8 KWh to charge, and overnight or at work you’d get a full charge.
In the distant future when the electric company is controlling when you charge being able to fully charge in a small window at night might get you a cheaper rate, but for now I wouldn’t think it would justify paying for the 240v charger for most folks. Which is why it makes sense to sell it separately.
Of course if you get a Leaf and need to charge 16KWh at night you would probably want the 240v charger.
+1
Dec 29th, 2009 (7:35 am)I don’t like the door panels breaking the line of black that goes between the wheel wells. I’m sure once I have one I’ll get over that pretty quickly.
Dec 29th, 2009 (7:38 am)Tuesday December 29, 2009, 6:34 am
Oil closes in on $79 a barrel in Asia after US cold-snap drives energy futures higher
BANGKOK (AP) — Oil prices closed in on $79 a barrel Tuesday in Asia, extending gains as regional stock markets mostly rose and the dollar’s rally stalled.
Benchmark crude for February delivery was up 2 cents to $78.79 a barrel at late afternoon Bangkok time in electronic trading on the New York Mercantile Exchange.
The contract settled up 72 cents at $78.77 on Monday after surging above $79 as an extended cold snap in the U.S. triggered an end-of-year rally in energy futures.
Futures contracts for oil, natural gas and heating oil have all become more expensive this month as snow storms blanketed parts of the U.S. and a sharp drop in supplies of crude and other fuels surprised traders.
Analysts say oil could rise above $80 before the end of the year if U.S. inventories later this week show a drop in stockpiles, which would suggest improving demand in the world’s largest economy.
_________________________
By June 2010 the headline will read:
Summer heat and family travel push oil to near $100 per barrel. You’ll see.
The Volt will look good at $10 per pound.
=D~
Dec 29th, 2009 (7:43 am)Once again, it points to a very good balance of choices. Weight vs. performance and length of charge. So it is heavy, but performance is good and range is a good start.
Dec 29th, 2009 (7:50 am)Does anyone know if the “Voltek drivetrain” display unit is the actual undercarriage of the Volt. That sucker is massive. Looks like a giant casting, probably aluminum, but definitely massive. It is impressive, but not sure if it is just for display or actually part of the car.
+16
Dec 29th, 2009 (7:54 am)Think how expensive it will go if war breaks out in the middle east, $200/barrel +.
The Volt is coming along nice. Don’t think they have any idea the demand that will be coming.
The middle east instability and terrorism will likely get much worse. Was reading how Yemen is almost out of oil and facing their own economic catastrophe. Oil money will flow there to take advantage of unlimited supply of terrorists. Iran is moving toward nukes and war with Israel if not a civil war first.
Number one national security issue since 1973 should have been to not import oil from the middle east. Since 2001 it should have been #1 with a couple of stars next to it.
Since unemployement hit 10% not importing oil should be JOB 1 in DC as that would help create jobs and stop dollars flowing out of the country as well as making us more secure.
The Volt is the only thing going on to address this probem in a meaningful way which is why I come to this site. But electric cars are not enough, folks you need to write your congressmen and wake them up. We need to displace a lot of diesel and home fuel oil as well as turning our domestic fleet to EREV/BEVs.
Of course the unintended consequence of the world moving away from oil will be even more instability in the middle east. Which is why we need to become free of imported Oil before everyone else so it won’t be our problem.
+11
Dec 29th, 2009 (8:00 am)Roy, you sound a lot like the visitors who posted on this site about two years ago, when they just KNEW that the Volt was just a PR stunt. Actually, the 10,000 figure you mention is what GM estimates only for first year production, with the numbers ramping up sharply in year 2011. They’ve quoted 50,000 – 60,000 in year two. They’re investing way too much money in a production line to produce this car for appearances only. I believe that the Volt is for real, and that once the American public catches on to what it offers, it will set a new standard for automobiles. IMO.
P.S. Besides, the majority stock holder owner — Uncle Sam — isn’t gonna let GM kill ths car.
Dec 29th, 2009 (8:22 am)Jay is pretty well informed, I wouldn’t doubt that he has been on this site a time or two! One thing I did notice was that Farah didn’t say the Volt was 3900 lbs., Jay did. GM has been very cautious about stating actual numbers and I wouldn’t be surprised if the weight doesn’t come in closer to the 3760 I heard earlier this year. Still, even at 3900 pounds, with the 50-50 weight distribution they were talking about last month and the low center of gravity the pack gives it, it should handle very well. When there is no snow or ice. But even there, if memory serves, Weber nodded his head when asked if it was 50-50, he didn’t say it himself. I understand why they are so close mouthed, but it is kind of irritating.
But for me it all comes down to, will I be able to get at least 30 miles AER and will the after tax credit price be at or under $30,000. That is what I need and it sounds like the Volt will be there in a few years. Too cool!
+2
Dec 29th, 2009 (8:22 am)This was, in my opinion, a great interview by a car guy who KNOWS his electrics and the pitfalls and questions to ask.
If Jay thought it was great, then it IS. Period.
Roy says Does someone know what the production capacity of the Hamtramck plant is? I think I read about 200,000+ /yr. I understand their desire to start production slow and ramp up, but don’t understand why it should take more than 6 months to get up to full production. I got the idea from posts about the LA show that GM was only going to make 10,000/yr for 2011 and 2012.
Am I correct?
The Volt is currently slated to be produced on ONE line ONLY, or about 60,000 max per year. I expect the version two Volt will get a second line and the first one converted to Version two as well.
Only a few more days until it is THE YEAR we have been waiting for, seems quite unreal after the saga of “As the Volt turns”
Has Plug? Have Sale
LJGTVWOTR
Dec 29th, 2009 (8:36 am)Excellent video Jay and Andrew!!
Good content, informative, and well balanced.
As mentioned previously, 3900 lbs seems to be high, even with the battery pack (about the same weight as a Buick Lucerne). I thought I had seen an estimate for the Cruze’s weight at 2800 lbs.
This is good marketing for the Volt. Maybe GM can get Jay to do the Volt Dance routine in a future commercial (sorry Jay, couldn’t resist).
+1
Dec 29th, 2009 (8:40 am)No footage of the Baker Electric ride?
(did Jay have to install a soundmaker for the blind people?)
+3
Dec 29th, 2009 (8:40 am)I think you hit the key word: balance. The engineers had a lot of factors to juggle and each one had an impact on all the rest. I think everything revolved around the battery, it’s needs, e.g. insulation, cooling, etc, and the infrastructure to make the car both safe and comfortable. As the battery tech advances (read Gen II and Gen III), all of the other factors can be adjusted accordingly.
I thought Jay gave the Volt a very fair appraisal and didn’t hesitate to ask knowledgeable, tough questions. He’s just a touch more savvy than David Letterman!. I tried over a year ago to get Lyle on the Leno late night show, obviously unsuccessfully. Maybe now he’ll have *someone* on his show representing the Volt. Great PR.
Happy New Year!
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The
Dec 29th, 2009 (8:41 am)Probably a couple hundred more than Cobalt, so somewhere around 3,050 pounds… which just happens to be the weight of Prius.
An extra 850 pounds certainly reveals a major contributing factor to CS-mode efficiency we hadn’t paid much attention to.
This doesn’t fair well for on-going tire cost either. XL grade would be required to support that extra weight.
Dec 29th, 2009 (8:43 am)AMEN! Very exciting times! I think I’d throw in the term “EPIC saga”! LOL.
Happy New Year!
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The
Dec 29th, 2009 (8:45 am)I think the mechanical noises from “way back then” would have made a racket that would warn people (and horses) that they were coming (g).
Happy New Year!
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The
Dec 29th, 2009 (8:48 am)Good points! I’d also expect that the ride will be substantially nicer than a Cruze or Cobalt.
Happy New Year!
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The
Dec 29th, 2009 (8:53 am)I don’t know, but *someone* here should have an idea. I’d be surprised if they built a model that didn’t reflect the actual Volt though.
Happy New Year!
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The
Dec 29th, 2009 (9:04 am)Cool video!
Jay brings a lot of cred to any car he talks about. He seems to like the Volt and the tag line was the kicker.
We need more of this kind of reporting. I don’t see why GM doesn’t put at least links to these vids on their site as well. I guess there is too much demand already? All the car company web sites seem kind of lame to me.
+4
Dec 29th, 2009 (9:10 am)3900 lbs? My V-8 pickup weighs only 200 lbs more than that! This tells me that the standard voltec package CAN run a pickup-sized vehicle.
I have no problems downsizing to an S-10 sized pickup, but, a true half-ton electric would be better!
Dec 29th, 2009 (9:15 am)Does anyone have any thoughts as to when to buy some GM stock? Its at 50 cents now and has been dropping since August. The question is, when will the Volt enthusiasm begin to be reflected in the stock price?
+2
Dec 29th, 2009 (9:29 am)THIS is what the Volt needs, not some stupid dance or song or whatever.
My fav part is at 5:19 (min. left), when Jay makes the San Francisco example; maybe no great news here, but it is important IMHO to say explicitly that you *can* use the car in CS mode even for a long time without plugging it in.
We know the car is optimized to work as an EV, but I think it is reassuring for the customer to know you always have a gas engine to back you up. I mean, in all those situations where you just can’t plug the Volt in overnight, you probably (*cough*) don’t care (*cough*) a lot if you’re being or not being environmentally friendly or efficient… you just want to know you can keep going!
When you’re back home, you can return to 100% EV mode and feel ok with your conscience again
P.s. too bad you guys in US don’t have 240v as standard…
Dec 29th, 2009 (9:33 am)That’s why the Obama administration is pushing for a green economy. And aren’t we fortunate that GM is so far ahead of other manufacturers with the Volt.
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
+2
Dec 29th, 2009 (9:35 am)Yes. Well said.
GM has happened on the ultimate formula here. 40 miles AER covers the vast majority of daily driving, and charges overnight using a regular 110v outlet. With only 8 amps of charging current, you don’t even need a dedicated circuit. Perfect for the mass adoption.
Of course, there will be a some enthusiasts that want to save every last ounce of gasoline possible, and don’t care about the hassle of plugging in multiple times a day, or the expense of hiring an electrician to run a 220v dedicated circuit. Like hyper-milers with the Prius, this demographic is very active on forums, but they’re a small percentage of the general population. So it makes total sense for the 220v charger to be an option.
I hope they offer two 110v charging cables standard, one for charging at home, and a second cable in the trunk for charging away from home. The second cable would also act as a backup if the first one gets damaged.
+3
Dec 29th, 2009 (9:39 am)Great video and I loved the slight Jay made about the Tesla and honking the horn! That was priceless!
+1
Dec 29th, 2009 (9:43 am)Obama is pushing for green technology because it’s politically correct; it has nothing to do with creating jobs, getting America off oil dependency or anything like that. If making roads out of brick instead of asphalt and concrete was popular Obama or any other politician would be for it.
Dec 29th, 2009 (9:48 am)Cruze weight – 2750 lbs
Volt weight – 3520 lbs estimate
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
+6
Dec 29th, 2009 (9:49 am)GM stock is still listed? This must be OLD GM stock which will go to zero as it is the bankrupt company. Do Not Buy!
+1
Dec 29th, 2009 (9:49 am)The 240 volts is the standard in the US, but we use 120 for most items in our homes. Most electric clothing dryers, electric water heaters, ovens and electric home heating use 240 volt. We run most of our major appliances off of 240 volt. There is no such thing in the US as a home with only 120 volt that I know of. Such as my house has two 120 volt legs coming in capable of 100 amps from each leg. Plenty of electricity to power my future Volt! I’ll most likely use the 120 method though. Charging for 8 hours isn’t a big deal. My office is exactly 15 miles from my home, so gasoline will hardly ever be used. The tough part is that I live in Dallas, Texas and most likely won’t see a Volt until late 2011.
+6
Dec 29th, 2009 (9:49 am)Back to the conspiracy theories eh?
Yes it was a bad public relations decision to crush the EV-1′s, get over it.
The EV-1 died because it was too expensive. Meaning it cost twice as much to build as it was priced in the showroom.
The Gen 1 Volt is also going to be too expensive and GM will likely be aiming for break-even but may come a bit short on that. The profitable cost reduced Gen 2 model will see bigger production numbers but it makes little sense to build a large number of non-profitable Gen 1 cars.
None of this is new news Roy.
Either you are new here or are trying to stir up the hornets nest.
+2
Dec 29th, 2009 (9:50 am)“An extra 850 pounds certainly reveals a major contributing factor to CS-mode efficiency we hadn’t paid much attention to.”
Bob Boniface made a presentation indicating a 0.25 mile loss of AER for every 10 kg of weight in city driving. Still, at 230 mpg for the urban cycle, they must be doing something right.
Weight has less factor on the highway, and Bob noted that every 10 counts of aero reduction adds 0.55 miles AER.
“This doesn’t fair well for on-going tire cost either. XL grade would be required to support that extra weight.”
GM has confirmed Goodyear as the tire supplier for the Volt. From the picture released by GM, the sidewall indicates a max load of 1509 lbs, with a max pressure of 61 psi. This doesn’t seem to be a problem.
Also, the press release states that the Assurance Fuel Max tires reduce rolling resistance by 27%, which equates to a 4% increase in highway mileage. Also stated, this equates to up to 2600 miles of additional driving on the same amount of gas over the life of the tires. Thus, the tires are designed for 65,000 miles.
+5
Dec 29th, 2009 (9:57 am)“Malibu-Sized”…. I got my wife to watch the video with me.
She is impressed! I can’t wait to take her on a test drive in one.
So, when do we get one for our dealership?!!!
+9
Dec 29th, 2009 (10:04 am)Yes, I agree totally. GM engineered the Volt for mass adoption, but GM marketing seems to be treating it as a niche car for the green crowd. They’re in for a big surprise…
After 9/11, many people attached an American flag to their SUV, which took off another 1-2 MPG at highway speeds. More money for the terrorists.
People don’t get it.
Where did Osama bin-Laden get his money? What allows Iran to finance their nuclear program?
And last but not least, what motivates suicide bombers? Are they so religiously crazed that they can’t wait to die for Allah? Maybe, but there is also a much more practical answer. A suicide bomber strikes knowing that their family will be financially set for life. In fact, most families of suicide bombers are financially better off than they would have been otherwise. Who ends up paying for this? Where does this money come from?
Every dollar we spend on foreign oil helps pay for our own destruction.
-19
Dec 29th, 2009 (10:16 am)(click to show comment)
+5
Dec 29th, 2009 (10:19 am)Simply changing who we buy oil from will not solve our problem either, because oil is a fungible commodity. Think of the oil market as a swimming pool – producers pour oil in, consumers take oil out. We don’t import all or even most of our oil from the Persian Gulf today, yet the decisions of Persian Gulf oil suppliers have a profound impact on our economy.
Yes.
The United States imports around 2/3 of the oil we consume. Oil consumption breaks down roughly as follows:
• 44% gasoline (mostly for passenger vehicles)
• 17% diesel (mostly for heavy duty long distance travel)
• 5% jet fuel
• 15% fuel oil (home heating and industrial)
• 19% other (petro-chemical, plastics, fertilizer, etc.)
Let’s say plug-ins got to 80% market penetration. The Volt would eliminate about 80% of the gasoline used in those cars. The total amount of oil consumed by the U.S. would be 28% less (80% * 80% * 44%). While this is a big deal, it’s less than half the amount of oil we currently import.
So it’s obvious to me that we need other solutions in addition to plug-ins. These would probably include:
• Ethanol from non-food sources ( http://www.coskata.com )
• Bio-diesel from algae ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Ih-DLurcZA )
• More domestic oil production (stripper wells, oil shale, tar sands, offshore drilling)
• Conservation
Dec 29th, 2009 (10:22 am)Video indicates real world AER of 26 mi. for the Volt.
At 4:59/13:03 we see 8/10 full on the battery and 21 mi range. (shot before the drive, most likely). 21/.8 = 26.25 mi.
At 8:07/13:03 we see 6/10 full on the battery and 16 mi range. (shot after the drive, most likely). 16/.6 = 26.66 mi.
-Jay’s drive uses up 5 mi range (21 – 16) and 2/10 of the battery. 5/.2 = 25 mi.
- Gas engine did not contribute (107 mi range in both shots),
+3
Dec 29th, 2009 (10:24 am)I agree that the demand will easily out-pace the supply for at least a couple of years, but I don’t understand the “niche” comment.
PS Personally, I think flying the flag is worth a couple mpg – it’s not all about the money. If it was, there’d be very few Volt’s sold.
Happy New Year!
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The
+1
Dec 29th, 2009 (10:34 am)Correct. This is OLD GM. The new GM is not public yet. It is expected that they will go public sometime in 2010.
Dec 29th, 2009 (10:34 am)That demographic will put a lot of wear and tear on the Volts battery, even worse if they live in places like Arizona. Is Arizona a CARB state with the 10/150 battery warranty?
+1
Dec 29th, 2009 (10:38 am)Good eye Carcus
Jay was probably flogging it in the sports mode, and with a few passengers and camera gear. That is probably the worst range you will get.
+1
Dec 29th, 2009 (10:43 am)Exactly.
And not only when you’re away from home. For example:
• What if there is a power outage?
• What if I forget to plug in?
The Volt covers all of these “what-ifs” and more.
And if you fill your Volt with E85, then you’re hardly using any oil at all.
Dec 29th, 2009 (10:45 am)You have a link for this?.. seems too high for a BEV.
+2
Dec 29th, 2009 (10:50 am)The most ironinc part is that flying a small flag on your car is more money for terrorists.
Every dollar we spend on foreign oil helps pay for our own destruction.
+2
Dec 29th, 2009 (10:53 am)Maybe in Palestine but not in the larger War with the US. The Suicide Bombers are driven by Religion. Read some of the suicide manifestos. Many are wealthy and smart people who have plenty of means. It is their understanding of the teachings of Muhammed (who was involved in many killings, ambushes, wars, and deceipt.
Dec 29th, 2009 (10:53 am)So you don’t drive then?
I’m just saying that we all have our priorities.
Happy New Year!
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The
+2
Dec 29th, 2009 (10:57 am)Conservation is probably the lowest cost to implement of all your alternatives to petroleum.
+1
Dec 29th, 2009 (11:00 am)Do we know how the battery display changes? IE does it change only in full 1/10 increments. If so, a 2/10 change in the display could potentially represent anywhere from a 1.5/10 to 2/10 change. That would put the range between 33mi to 25 mi. Its a little hard to make accurate estimates with small changes and short distances. We run into the same problem with my son’s cobalt. Instantaneous MPG can be in the mid to high 30s (highway) but over a long trip it averages low 30s.
+1
Dec 29th, 2009 (11:06 am)Well some Green things are OK, but we actually also need to drill all the oil in alaska and the gulf that we can. If we started in earnest by the time that oil reached our market we’d be able to increase domestic production while reducing consumption with EREV/BEVs CNG trucks and replacing of home fuel oil use.
Instead of producing 5m BPD and importing 15m BPD. Lets produce 8m BPD and import zero. Think what that would do to create jobs and improve our trade deficit.
Dec 29th, 2009 (11:08 am)I’m not sure that is correct. While it shows 16 miles of range and 11 miles traveled with 0 gasoline useage which would imply 11 + 16 = 27 miles. We don’t know when this was reset. Does it reset automatically when plugged in? Or only when fully charged? Or by the user much like a trip meter?
-2
Dec 29th, 2009 (11:12 am)The problem wasn’t a matter of support, it was COST.
Those tires won’t be cheap.
+3
Dec 29th, 2009 (11:15 am)GM is really doing a nice job with the Volt development if "ongoing tire wear" is what we've been reduced to as a criticism.
Dec 29th, 2009 (11:17 am)But I don’t want to conserve. I used to always drive vans with lots of room. I switched to compact in 2006 and I can’t wait to drive as much as I want without guilt. I just wish they would move along to SUV/VANs and pickups with EREV/BEVs. But my kids are almost grown and soon I”ll only need a regular car anyways.
+1
Dec 29th, 2009 (11:23 am)Last I heard, many Prius owners were complaining about their OEM tires being junk, and have been replacing them rather quickly with more expensive options.
This isn’t exactly the definition of the best (or cheapest) way, either.
Dec 29th, 2009 (11:24 am)Well, hope springs eternal, I guess.
But I’d offer that these conditions were a long ways from the worst you could get.
The video is probably shot in the area around Burbank, where the terrain is flat and the weather reasonably warm, probably not a lot of wind (although Jay’s hair would indicate otherwise). And although Jay might have done an acceleration check or two, the likelyhood of any high speed runs looks remote to me. There’s probably 3 in the car and even professional video equipment is just not that heavy these days (but when you’re already at 3900 what’s a few hundred more?).
I’d say a worst case scenario would involve cold weather, (23deg F), wind, rolling hills and icy/snowing conditions. Something like a Doctor might see on his winter commute down a New Jersey Turnpike.
+1
Dec 29th, 2009 (11:29 am)Yeah, ouch! I gave you back a +1, just because it’s a fair comment.
Dec 29th, 2009 (11:32 am)The “actual results will vary” comment seems reasonable, but if the Volt actually gets 26 miles AER for an average person, then that will have to be the most important improvement with GEN 2 is to get 40 miles for the ‘average person’, even if that means a 20 KWH battery.
We all understand the calculation of 40 miles, how for most folks (78%) thats enough every day, and for many others that can charge at work that will cut into the remaining 22%. But the game changer that the Volt aspires to be won’t happen if it can’t go 40 miles.
Dec 29th, 2009 (11:33 am)That’s very pig…. err ah, BIG of you. Thanks.
**LOL, snort**
+1
Dec 29th, 2009 (11:37 am)Agreed on all points Tag–well said.
+1
Dec 29th, 2009 (11:40 am)Why are so many people making a big deal out of the weight? Who cares what it weighs!
PERFORMANCE AND EFFICIENCY are what count.
Plus, I don’t want a light car. I want some mass around me when I drive down the road.
+1
Dec 29th, 2009 (11:43 am)IIRC the setup for the answer “your mileage may vary” was Jay saying, if you have (insert all electrical accessories here) running, will you get 40 AER? Andrew was honest and told him that that would shorten the AER.
Since GM is shooting for 40 AER at the END of the battery life, I suspect that it will get the “average” driver their 40 AER when it’s brand new. JMO.
Happy New Year!
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The
+2
Dec 29th, 2009 (11:44 am)True that! +1.
+1
Dec 29th, 2009 (11:47 am)Define “junk”. Did they not like the “performance” of the tires? Couldn’t take corners? lose grip on hard accel?
My guess is the tires of both cars were chosen for best mileage and not for cornering or fast accel. So if it’s any of those then they bought the wrong car.
+1
Dec 29th, 2009 (11:53 am)How does weight affect a vehicle’s efficiency?
http://green.autoblog.com/2009/10/29/greenlings-how-does-weight-affect-a-vehicles-efficiency/
Dec 29th, 2009 (11:54 am)I doubt it. I recall some Mini EV drivers saying they only got 80 miles out of the 100 stated and Lyle said he got 70 miles, or was it 75, can’t remember precisely. In EV mode I think it is safe to apply the same percentages they get to the 40AER the Volt is “Specified” to get as “Up to”.
40AER * .8 = 32AER
40AER * .7 = 28AER
I have yet to hear that there is algorithm to make sure (dip deeper into the batt pack) a driver will get/gaurantee 40AER from a full charge.
Dec 29th, 2009 (11:58 am)I thought they said 3900lbs?
Or should I just go back to plain Kahlua today?
+2
Dec 29th, 2009 (11:58 am)The Mini-E runs on a stack of laptop batteries, the Volt has a proprietary battery that is “managed” re SOC, temp, etc. Seems like apples vs oranges to me. *Under-promise – Over-deliver.
Happy New Year!
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The
+2
Dec 29th, 2009 (12:03 pm)lol…
Dude.
Try this, run accross a football field then run back. You ran fairly “efficient”. Now carry a 12 pack of MGD and run it again. Sure you may be able to do it. Now carry 2 12 packs of MGD and do it. You definately did not do it “efficiently” becuase you used much more energy to move the mass of 24 MGD’s.
Now crack a few open and let’;s have a couple!
+1
Dec 29th, 2009 (12:08 pm)Nice catch. But as mentioned the EV range gauge is a discontinuous function and we don’t know what they actually did on the drive — lots of editing on the video.
I’m very comfortable with GM’s claimed “up to 40 miles” of EV range using the EPA drive cycle and you should be as well. The EPA drive cycle is beyond well known to the GM engineers and they’re not going to lie about it — if for no other reason than at some point in time the car will be put on the dynamometer, rest assured of that!
But an EV range of 28 miles is probably what you can expect in reasonably good weather if you’re driving a good bit on something like the US06 drive cycle, which in truth a lot of people do. Additionally, as mentioned yesterday, for reasons relating to denser air and frictional losses both inside the vehicle and out, really cold weather will drop the range appreciably regardless of battery conditioning.
+1
Dec 29th, 2009 (12:11 pm)Since it can move a 3900lbs chassis, the drivetrain should be able to shove PHEV minivan around, shouldn’t it? Granted that it would have, with less range and a less sporty feel, but those are fine on a minivan.
-1
Dec 29th, 2009 (12:12 pm)That is the same across the board for all Li cells. It is mandatory that Charge management, Balance, thermal management, SOC, LVC and OVC all be managed. Regardless of the chemistry “Management” is required. Apples to Apples.
The chem makeup of the cells is the only difference. Tesla uses 18650 LiFePO4 cells and Volt uses ~15AH LiMn “Pouch” style. The comparison is more like “Granny Smith” to “Fuji Apples”.
+4
Dec 29th, 2009 (12:12 pm)Is Jay Leno a super salesman for the Volt or what?
He hit every salient selling point you could imagine. All Farah had to do was play along as the straight man — all the good points were in the questions. Very impressive performance. He even managed to get in nasaman’s point about the redundant propulsion systems, which is one of those easily overlooked subtle advantages.
Sign the guy up!!!
Dec 29th, 2009 (12:18 pm)[...] tip to GM-Volt.comfor the link. Share and [...]
+2
Dec 29th, 2009 (12:19 pm)Absolutely! That’s the best “ad” I’ve seen yet.
Happy New Year!
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The
-3
Dec 29th, 2009 (12:20 pm)OK, I tried to watch the video but there’s a friggin commercial at the begining. I hate them on TV and I hate them even more on the web.
It remains unwatched by my eyes.
+1
Dec 29th, 2009 (12:21 pm)Two big differences between what Tesla and mini are doing and what GM is doing with the Volt. One is that both Tesla and mini are air cooling and heating the pack while GM is using a liquid cooling and heating system. This means that unlike the mini and the Roadster you shouldn’t have to park the Volt when the weather gets really hot.
Second is that Tesla and mini are using small cells used in laptop computers while GM is using large format cells. This means that Tesla and mini have to manage and balance a much larger number of cells, which is a much more problematic task. Complicating this task further is the fact that the laptop batteries will degrade over time even without use, so balancing and management issues will arise even more frequently than the numbers alone would suggest.
The management of the mini and Roadster packs may be apples to apples but comparing the management of the Volt pack to these packs seems more like apples to pears. They’re still fruit but with quite different characteristics.
Dec 29th, 2009 (12:24 pm)Do you really know the particulars of the Mini-E’s battery management the way GM has disclosed theirs? What’s the window of their usable SOC? I do know that they are air cooled, which differs from the Volt. I may have missed their other battery particulars, so please feel free to educate me.
Happy New Year!
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The
Dec 29th, 2009 (12:26 pm)Look Don,
You’re dancing around the truth here and you know it.
The truth is that the EPA testing standards that were re-worked in 2008 closely simulate average U.S. driving habits. And they’re pretty good at showing what the average driver is going to get in terms of efficiency (mpg or wh/mile).
Just put the freakin’ volt on the 2008 EPA tests and tell me what the mpg in CS mode is, and tell me wh/mile city highway. How hard is that?
Much, much evidence that it’s not going to be 50 mpg or 200wh/mile. Probably not even close.
+1
Dec 29th, 2009 (12:27 pm)You really should make an exception this time!
Happy New Year!
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The
+2
Dec 29th, 2009 (12:27 pm)Well, at least the Volt won’t be pushed around by high winds and the backwash from passing tractor-trailers. I was worried the Volt would be too light (in the interest of fuel economy), and that I would have to fight the steering wheel in high wind conditions. The Volt’s gonna drive like my big Honda minivan. Woo-hoo !
+7
Dec 29th, 2009 (12:28 pm)RE: Why are so many people making a big deal out of the weight? Who cares what it weighs!
PERFORMANCE AND EFFICIENCY are what count.
Plus, I don’t want a light car. I want some mass around me when I drive down the road.
————————————————
Thanks for all the obvious replies to my comment. I know that weight is bad for performance and efficiency.
My point is that the 3900 lbs. is just the reality of the situation. They didn’t put any extra unnecessary weight in the Volt. They put in the LEAST amount they possibly could at this point in the development game.
Batteries are heavy, and the engineers do the best they can with keeping the pounds off with the technology available.
So it weighs what it weighs.
-1
Dec 29th, 2009 (12:28 pm)Yes, How they go about it is different but the principle of the “Management” is the same.
+3
Dec 29th, 2009 (12:33 pm)Jack,
The day we have no commercials on the internet is the day the internet dies or becomes prohibitively expensive for the user to bother with.
Embrace the free internet that is paid for by advertisements!
Dec 29th, 2009 (12:34 pm)The EPA will be testing the Volt this spring. Then we’ll all know more.
Happy New Year!
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The
+2
Dec 29th, 2009 (12:39 pm)I believe you can buy stock in the new GM in the form of the debt of old GM. (Bondholders got equity in the bankruptcy filing.)
I wouldn’t recommend it though. GM’s not anywhere near being on solid footing. And, if they ever are, the unions will demand whatever excess profits they don’t need to invest in R&D. They’ll never again be able to even think of paying a dividend. So upside is very limited.
+1
Dec 29th, 2009 (12:40 pm)Pretty much every home in the US that was recently built or upgraded has both 110v and 220v. Mine was built in 1951 and the panel upgraded to 200amps in 1968. I have 220v everywhere (pool pump, range/stove, clothes dryer, HVAC etc.). AND a 220v sub-panel in the garage just waiting for a compressor or a Volt.
Dec 29th, 2009 (12:42 pm)Great interview. Jay Leno totally gets the range extender issue.
I think we have had a 1 year reprieve in gas prices because of the global recession. By the time the Volt comes out in a year, they will not be able to make them fast enough to cover the demand. They just have to be very diligent in reliability issues. The current problems with Prius brakes should be a warning shot to GM about how easily your reputation can be tarnished.
+2
Dec 29th, 2009 (12:50 pm)Great video. I wish Jay Leno was still the host of “The Tonight Show”. He could have said some good things about the Volt every now and then on the show in the next few years. Maybe Conan O’Brien can do it instead.
Jay definitely knows cars. If Jay says the Volt is impressive, then people will likely take his word for it and go to the dealership and take it for a test drive. Who knows, maybe GM can get Jay to do a few TV commercials for the Volt.
I also think that Andrew Farah is good at explaining the features and benefits of the Volt. He ought to go on some TV shows in the next few years to talk about the Volt. Potential customers like to know that the top designers and engineers put in a lot of time and effort into making the car as good as possible. Customers like to know that the designers and engineers were very meticulous in the design and they’ve thought of everything. All the things that makes a car excellent, etc.
Dec 29th, 2009 (12:53 pm)Another excellent automotive video from Jay.
Let’s hope GM can somehow reset the Volt’s price so more families can afford the car and make it realistic for high volume mass production.
Will GM allow Chevy dealerships to mark up the Volt’s price?
-2
Dec 29th, 2009 (1:01 pm)It’s not caring for the everyday, run-of-the-mill, standard tires you find on many of the vehicles from the same automaker.
Volt clearly will not have that in common. It will use XL grade tires. You will not have any choice other than using those more expensive ones. Standard will not be an option.
Dec 29th, 2009 (1:02 pm)Nice cite and great point about the mass. When moving things it’s invariably about the mass, though less for an EV with regenerative breaking than for a conventional ICE vehicle. Hopefully car makers will start looking at alternative steel and aluminum and composites. LIghter weight materials are available, as shown by the VW UpLIte or whatever it’s called.
+1
Dec 29th, 2009 (1:09 pm)Haven’t been on one of my Jan/Feb commutes, eh?
Try -10 deg F, after having sat all day in the parking lot.
+3
Dec 29th, 2009 (1:11 pm)What makes you say they’ll be XL? Maybe I missed that. I thought that Weber said the Volt tires would be used on other cars in the GM lineup. Weight shouldn’t be an issue since luxury cars that weigh about the same as the Volt use standard P tires.
Dec 29th, 2009 (1:12 pm)Somebody peed in that pool in 1999. I’ve been running ad-blocking software ever since. When I visit sites such as this one or CNN without the ad blocker on, I’m really shocked by the crap that people put up with.
Companies have a right to advertise, and I have a right to fight to avoid looking at the ads. The status quo will be maintained. I grew up in house with limited TV viewing, so I have a very low tolerance for advertising and flash-bang bullshit. When site-operators (such as The Daily Kos) ask me to turn off my ad-blocker or stop reading the site, I stop reading the site. It’s that simple.
+3
Dec 29th, 2009 (1:13 pm)OK Tag, I watched it, but only bcuz you suggested it
I think Jay did a Fantabulous (is that a word?) job and covered all aspects of what a common consumer would need or wnat to know.
Dec 29th, 2009 (1:16 pm)EXACTLY!!!!
Amen bro!!!
I just block most root IP or URL sites that “Host” them, banners that is. And if it’s some bullsh|t that requires to open that IP up, then I don’t need to see it.
Dec 29th, 2009 (1:18 pm)Its pretty sad that we have essentially had this EREV technology since 1916 and no one has done anything with it until 2010.
Just imagine where we would be at if it had been progressing for the last 100 years.
+2
Dec 29th, 2009 (1:19 pm)Hey, a dog peed on my tires. Does it make it a “P” tire now?
AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAA!!!!
Dec 29th, 2009 (1:20 pm)Well, thank you! I really didn’t want you to miss such a great video. They *did* do a fantabulous job!
Happy New Year!
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
Dec 29th, 2009 (1:24 pm)And here I thought I was agreeing with you. Ba ha ha ha ha ha ha!
I’d be very surprised if we don’t see a sticker that shows 25 kWh per 100 miles on both the EPA drive cycles, wall to wheels, which should come out pretty close to a range of 40 miles with a full 8 kWh charge, pack to wheels.
On the CS mode my guess is 37 MPG. I think we have a lot of hints that the number will be something around this. It won’t be much lower than this though. FWIW the MPG in CS mode just isn’t an important number as far as I’m concerned. A much bigger factor will be the availability of opportunity charging. This is what Farah was getting at when he said on the weekends he could go a couple of hundred miles using just a couple of tenths of a gallon of gasoline. You drive, you charge, you drive, etc. etc..
-1
Dec 29th, 2009 (1:26 pm)That price you see .50 cents is for the old GM stock still in Bankruptcy. This stock will soon be worthless. Wait for the IPO of the new GM stock.
Dec 29th, 2009 (1:27 pm)Plus one for that. Very punny.
-1
Dec 29th, 2009 (1:27 pm)Is the 3900lbs one of the hints?
+1
Dec 29th, 2009 (1:29 pm)I’m not sure that progress quite works that way. I think that the electric starter (that eliminated the hand crank) tipped the scales for the ICE vehicles, but the other issues remained unsolved until recently. For example, it’s still a huge country and battery chemistries only recently are approaching functional levels. Petroleum based fuels are incredibly good energy carriers. Granted, they bring with them their own set of problems, but the EV1 pretty much proved that the technology wasn’t quite ready for prime time (ducks and covers)(g).
Happy New Year!
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
Dec 29th, 2009 (1:31 pm)Here, you’ll appreciate this (no commercials or anything, man).
pee+soap
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jyrl1G6MUz0
+1
Dec 29th, 2009 (1:32 pm)Click “Play” next time you head to the fridge for a beer. The commercial will be over by the time you return.
Dec 29th, 2009 (1:33 pm)Bad mood. I think somebody peed in my coffee this morning.
Dec 29th, 2009 (1:35 pm)Good suggestion. Personally, I just turn off the sound until the real show begins.
Happy New Year!
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
Dec 29th, 2009 (1:36 pm)11:47 am
Sounds right to me. +1.
Dec 29th, 2009 (1:38 pm)LOL, a *whole lot* of peeing going on today! Cheer up, the Volt is on the way!
Happy New Year!
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
+2
Dec 29th, 2009 (1:41 pm)A lot of services that we take for granted are paid for by advertising. Newspapers. Magazines. TV. The entire internet for that matter from google to individual websites. Most of the revenue for sports teams. Etc. Advertising revenues even help out the New York subway system!
Obviously, you don’t have to look at the advertising. But you’re using services that their advertising dollars paid for. And, honestly, pop-ups are annoying, but most advertising seems to me to be relatively subtle. So there’s a banner at the bottom of the screen–is it that hard to ignore?
Dec 29th, 2009 (1:42 pm)AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAA!!!!!
That was funny as hell!
Good laugh for the day. now I have to go peee. Dang Kahlua n Coffee.
Dec 29th, 2009 (1:47 pm)See the referenced slide of Bob’s presentation at about 3:05 in this video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=daec5BwoQ3M&e
Dec 29th, 2009 (1:53 pm)NO passengers on board during some of the drive if not all of the drive. There is a camera (perhaps 2) being operated remotely. Obviously there is a chase car (some shots external) and it is in these shots you can see (not see) passengers in the rear.
-1
Dec 29th, 2009 (1:59 pm)Ummm…. so what if they paid for THAT advertising. Doesn’t mean I want to use my bandwidth to bring down something I don’t want or intend to see.
LauraM:
And, honestly, pop-ups are annoying, but most advertising seems to me to be relatively subtle. So there’s a banner at the bottom of the screen–is it that hard to ignore?
Ditto here, so they want to put a banner on their website. It doesn’t mean that I have to use my bandwidth to bring down something I don’t want to or intend to look at.
Sure these banners are small but consider the magnitude of your browsing and multiply it by 3K for every banner you hit and that’s the amount of crap that’s left on your PC.
Plus, I think everybody “Pays” for their internet connection and everybody pays for their “web presence”. It doesn’t mean I have to help them get paid by using my bandwidth on crap I dont care or want to see.
As an IT guy who monitors Internet usage, I can tell you first hand that banners are the most “refreshed” objects in a web page because of their random cycling of objects. We block all of them simply because it uses 22% less bandwidth on our DS3 link.
I don’t mean to sound “Pissy” cuz i’m not. I’m all for the Internet. Just don’t try and force crap down my pipe.
+2
Dec 29th, 2009 (2:03 pm)Yes, but conservation alone won’t get us there, not by a long shot.
The point is that we will need multiple solutions together to end our oil addiction.
Dec 29th, 2009 (2:03 pm)Jay Leno is 5′ 11″ tall. Looks to have 4 inches of headroom in the Volt.
Priced the low rolling resistance 17″ tires. The Goodyear Assurance Fuel Max tire used on the Volt ranges in price from $109 to $150 each depending on the width.
Researched and compared the (reported?) weight of the Volt with the Cadillac sedan. The Caddy is 400 lbs heavier than the Volt.
2008 Dodge Charger 4170 lbs
2008 BMW M5 3417 lbs
2010 Honda Pilot 2WD 4319 lbs
2009 Chevrolet Equinox LS FWD 3699 lbs
2007 2.7 L Chrysler Sebring 3356 lbs
The Volt , after tax credit, is competitively priced with all of the above.
=D~
-1
Dec 29th, 2009 (2:16 pm)Wow, even if you pulled the batt pack out (-400lbs) it’s still 3500lbs.
-4
Dec 29th, 2009 (2:20 pm)Maybe you should just drink tea. . . . in moderation.
———————
Some Indians were sitting around the campfire one night telling stories and kicking back.
One brave had a mug of tea that he was drinking from, one cup-full after another.
The brave sitting next to him said, “Hey, you drink too much tea.”
“No, me fine,” replied the guzzler.
As the night wore on, again, the concerned brave said to his drinking mate, “Hey, if you keep drinking all that tea, you will get very sick!”
“No, me fine,” replied the contented guzzler.
Finally, an hour or so later, again, the concerned friend said, “Hey, if you keep drinking like that, you will die!”
“No, me fine.”
Well, sure enough, the next morning, they found him dead in his tea pee.
+1
Dec 29th, 2009 (2:24 pm)I actually pay more for things/services to avoid ads when possible. I won’t pay for Sirius/XM radio though.. they still run ads.
-1
Dec 29th, 2009 (2:25 pm)A big priority for me is preventing future terrorist attacks. The best way to accomplish this is remove their source of funding. If you attack terrorists with military force, they’ll just set up camp somewhere else. We’ll never win the war on terrorism through military might.
Terrorism is fueled by oil money, which flows from our dependence on foreign oil. So the only real way to fight terrorism is by reducing our oil consumption.
Global warming may cause some problems in 50 years, but a terrorist attack using an Iranian built nuke will have a much bigger environmental and economic impact.
Dec 29th, 2009 (2:32 pm)So you don’t drive?
Happy New Year!
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
Dec 29th, 2009 (2:35 pm)I like Jay Leno. It will be interesting to see how Jay’s future comments are “altered” by his Ford sponsorship. Not that I distrust Jay’s intent, but, as they say, “money talks”.
Cheers!
Dec 29th, 2009 (2:38 pm)PHAT COW
-2
Dec 29th, 2009 (2:43 pm)lol…
ude, UANUT!
-1
Dec 29th, 2009 (2:49 pm)Wow, first Honda get;s sued becuz customers weren’t getting the mileage that the EPA resulted in now this…
“Honda sued for ‘Save the Earth’ trademark violation”
http://www.autospies.com/news/Honda-sued-for-Save-the-Earth-trademark-violation-50685/
Tough crowd.
Dec 29th, 2009 (2:50 pm)I think we have to eliminate all of our oil consumption and be selective in our presence in the middle east. We need to help protect Israel (this alone will guarantee us being the focus of attacks) and any other country that wants democracy and human rights (but we need to do this with consulting, training and predators, let them put their own boots on the ground).
+3
Dec 29th, 2009 (3:03 pm)If you really believe that, then you should a)stop driving, b)become a vegan c) drink only tap water, d) not use anything made of non-biofuel plastic including silverware and plastic bags, e) not use any electricity you can’t generate yourself without using oil and f) not buy any goods not made within 10 miles of your home.
I agree that it’s generally a bad idea to send money to people who want to kill us, and I’m all for reducing American consumption to a sustainable level. Of oil and everything else. (It would be great if people only charged things on credit cards that they paid off at the end of the month.) But there are limits.
Life is about tradeoffs. If we freak out about one mpg, then we’re giving the terrorists the power to change our lives without them firing a single weapon.
+5
Dec 29th, 2009 (3:13 pm)Iran approves uranium enrichment
http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/europe/10/31/iran.nuclear/index.html
“After the vote was passed, several lawmakers stood up and shouted: “Death to America.”
World’s Top Oil Exporters:
Country ………………….. millions of barrels per day
Saudi Arabia …………….. 8.65
Russia …………………… 6.57
Norway ………………….. 2.54
Iran ……………………… 2.52
United Arab Emirates ….. 2.52
Venezuela ………………. 2.2
At $78/barrel, 2.52 million barrels per day works out to $71 billion per year.
If U.S. oil imports were significantly reduced, other countries would not be as dependant on Iranian oil, so meaningful sanctions against Iran would be possible.
It’s not that hard to connect the dots. Foreign oil will kill us.
Dec 29th, 2009 (3:18 pm)12:39 pm
My nominee for the understatement of 2009, LOL. +1.
+1
Dec 29th, 2009 (3:25 pm)I agree that that should be our goal. But it’s not something we can do immediately. Not if we want to maintain anything remotely resembling our quality of life. Or if we even want to maintain the infrastructure that will enable us to find viable alternatives.
Dec 29th, 2009 (3:27 pm)It’s not impossible, as you make it out to be.
The United States imports around 2/3 of the oil we consume. Oil consumption breaks down roughly as follows:
• 44% gasoline (mostly for passenger vehicles)
• 17% diesel (mostly for heavy duty long distance travel)
• 5% jet fuel
• 15% fuel oil (home heating and industrial)
• 19% other (petro-chemical, plastics, fertilizer, etc.)
Gasoline can be replaced by a combination of plug-ins and ethanol from non-food sources ( http://www.coskata.com ). Diesel can be replaced with Bio-diesel from algae ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Ih-DLurcZA ). Home heating oil can be replaced by natural gas or electricity. Add in some serious conservation efforts, and we can definitely get there. The real issue is motivation.
And even if we only get half-way there, we’d be a lot better off than we are now.
-1
Dec 29th, 2009 (3:34 pm)So why do we buy Iranian Oil? Or Do we?
I’m all for getting off OPEC juice completely. A BEV will guarantee I will but the Volt greatly reduce what I use drastically.
Dec 29th, 2009 (3:45 pm)I absolutely agree with you that the less oil we consume the better I just don’t think that subtracting one mpg to post an American flag is that big a deal in the scheme of things. We do what we can. Within reason.
Hopefully, at some point we will be able to eliminate our foreign oil use. Maybe even export oil (that’s how we used to keep the price under control). But that will take time and technology. We’re not there yet. Eliminating oil use completely, or even halving it, given current technology and our lack of public transportation, would mean the end of civilization as we know it.
That’s not saying we shouldn’t conserve as much as possible in the meantime. Obviously, we should. But, honestly, I think you’d save more oil by drinking tap water instead of bottled and switching to turkey burgers than you would by taking the flag off your car.
Dec 29th, 2009 (3:55 pm)Again, I must stress that it doesn’t matter who we buy our oil from. If we don’t buy oil from Iran, someone else will.
Oil is a fungible commodity. Think of the oil market as a swimming pool – producers pour oil in, consumers take oil out. We don’t import all or even most of our oil from the Persian Gulf today, yet the decisions of Persian Gulf oil suppliers have a profound impact on our economy.
So any oil that we import will help the countries that export oil the most. These are:
Country ………………….. millions of barrels per day
Saudi Arabia …………….. 8.65
Russia …………………… 6.57
Norway ………………….. 2.54
Iran ………………………. 2.52
United Arab Emirates ….. 2.52
Venezuela ………………. 2.2
-1
Dec 29th, 2009 (3:58 pm)Ahhh….
Gotit.
Thanks
fungible??? Had to google that.
Quit using big words on my small mind.
Dec 29th, 2009 (4:09 pm)I agree. We don’t need to go crazy about every little thing.
It’s the big things that will matter, and the Volt is a big thing, or at least the beginning of a big thing.
I just found it very ironic that the symbol of solidarity against terrorism after 9/11 actually helped fuel terrorism, albeit in a small way. This leads me to believe that many people still haven’t connected the dots between terrorism and foreign oil yet.
Dec 29th, 2009 (4:10 pm)Not my words:
http://www.setamericafree.org/solution.html
Dec 29th, 2009 (4:19 pm)Hi Laura;
I disagree in a big way. I think if we don’t do several things and fast we will be losing much of our quality of life.
Our jobs and our money are going to the Chinese and the oil exporting countries. Our debt is becoming a bigger and bigger problem.
To me a 5 year plan to stop importing oil will create tons of jobs and it is a no brainer that it is all good. Other protectionist actions to keep jobs in this country are not so easy to do.
The 5 year plan I talk about creates and keeps jobs in America while stopping the flow of our money to our enemies.
A partial list of what we should be doing to save our quality of life now (instead of health care reform for instance) includes the usual suspects
- by 2013 all non commerical vehicles SOLD should have at least 12 miles AER, thats 3 years to change over everything sold here (and if it doesn’t have that a LUXURY TAX instead of a credit)
- Start drilling like crazy in Alaska and the gulf so that within 5 years the oil will be here
- By 2013 replace Fuel oil in most homes that heat with it (tax credits to convert and then a heavy tax on fuel oil in 2013)
- Credits to switch 18 wheelers and other commercial vehicles from diesel to CNG, target credit needed to convert at least 30% of diesel to CNG by 2014
I don’t see the above things happening, and instead what I see is continued unemployment, continued huge deficits, and a HUGE drop in our standard of living.
But the above plan would be a huge creator of jobs and saver of the dollar. It would also allow us in 5 years to limit our overseas wars to consulting, training and use of technology like predators instead of boots on the grounds to assist countries that support human rights etc.
Dec 29th, 2009 (4:19 pm)It’s great news that Jay is onboard; and I expected he would be.
His video was even worth sitting through a commercial for Ford hybrids!
-1
Dec 29th, 2009 (4:20 pm)OT….
OK, The mini and Tesla uses the 16550 laptop batteries, right. Capacity is typically 2.2 – 2.6AH, let’s just say it’s 2.6AH 3.7VDC.
LG makes one: http://www.batteryspace.com/li-ion18650cylindricalrechargeablecell37v2600mah962wh–oemfromjapankorea-1.aspx
Now today (actually 12/25/2009)…
“Panasonic Develops High-Capacity Lithium-Ion Battery Cells
That Can Power Laptops and Electric Vehicles ”
http://panasonic.co.jp/corp/news/official.data/data.dir/en091225-3/en091225-3.html
Osaka, Japan – Panasonic Corporation today announced the development of two new 18650-type (18 mm in diameter, 65 mm in height) high-capacity lithium-ion battery cells[1] for use in laptop computers and environmentally-friendly energy technologies. The company boosted the capacity of 18650-type battery cells, which are widely used in laptops, by improving electrode materials. The newly-developed high-capacity 3.4 Ah and 4.0 Ah lithium-ion battery cells have an improved nickel based positive electrode[2], and the 4.0 Ah cell uses a silicon based alloy for the negative electrode instead of carbon[3].
——————————————————————————————————-
So, batt tech has slightly advanced. I wonder what the range will be if they used/just replaced the old cells 2.6AH?? and plugged these new 3.4AH cells in? Seems feasible, they are dimensionally equal. How bout the 4.0AH?
OK, maybe not the 4.0AH, too much tweaking in the BMS due to electrical charicteristics.
Dec 29th, 2009 (4:22 pm)Completely eliminating oil use is impossible.
My goal would be to eliminate foreign oil, which means cutting our oil consumption to 1/3 of what it is now. And I believe we can do this without significant changes to our lifestyle. And if a large political coalition is behind it, it might happen faster than anyone thinks.
And it’s not an all-or-nothing deal. The more we reduce oil imports, the better off we’ll be.
Dec 29th, 2009 (4:23 pm)Making this a requirement for all new cars would lower the prices on these cars and batteries very fast, and a 12 mile AER won’t cost that much for that amount of battery. But it will get the technology mainstreamed overnight.
It also will create jobs in the electric generation industry as we’d be replacing most of our imported Oil consumption with the purchase of domestic electricity. I don’t care if it is coal, nuclear, wind, solar, geo, hyro etc., as long as its american
+1
Dec 29th, 2009 (4:27 pm)FOOD FOR THOUGHT:
In November 2001, the news documentary “saudi time bomb?” by FRONTLINE and The New York Times explored how madrassas grew into training centers for jihad during the ten-year Afghan war against the Soviets. The documentary interviewed Vali Nasr, a noted authority on Islamic Fundamentalism, who had the following to say regarding the link between madrassas, terrorism and Saudi Arabia.
“… In order to have terrorists, in order to have supporters for terrorists, in order to have people who are willing to interpret religion in violent ways, in order to have people who are willing to legitimate crashing yourself into a building and killing 5,000 innocent people, you need particular interpretations of Islam.”
“Those interpretations of Islam are being propagated out of schools that receive organizational and financial funding from Saudi Arabia. In fact, I would push it further: that these schools would not have existed without Saudi funding. They would not have proliferated across Pakistan and India and Afghanistan without Saudi funding. They would not have had the kind of prowess that they have without Saudi funding, and they would not have trained as many people without Saudi funding. ”
In the same program Richard Holbrooke, the US ambassador to the United Nations during the Clinton administration and currently President Obama’s Special Representative for Afghanistan and Pakistan, also opined on the link between madrassas and oil revenue.
“I think that one of the tragedies of this story is that the Saudi Arabians exported their problem by financing the schools, the madrassas, all through the Islamic world. I saw this in Uzbekistan a few years after Uzbekistan got out of the Soviet Union, became an independent state in cities like Tashkent and Samarkand, where the Saudis were funding these schools teaching Koranic studies and creating a class of people for whom education was simply the Holy Book, the Koran.”
“… What happened here was that the Saudi Arabian government had two wings. The mainland Saudi leadership went into financial issues, defense issues, and they controlled the elite establishment in order to purchase support. From the more fundamentalist religious groups, they gave certain other ministries, the religious ministries, education ministries, to more fundamentalist Islam leaders. And that’s how the split occurred.”
“So the Saudi government was, to a certain extent, pursuing internally inconsistent policies throughout this period — reaching out to the West with sophisticated, well educated, internationally minded leaders like its foreign minister, like its ambassador in Washington and others. At the same time, it was funding with this vast oil revenue a different set of efforts: education, which was narrowly based in the Koran. ”
So the question is, has anything changed?
Dec 29th, 2009 (4:28 pm)As posted in previous threads, the tax credit of $7500 easily pays for itself by eliminating more than that amount of money going overseas to purchase oil. Each Volt may end up displacing over $20,000 in foreign Oil at likely gas prices over next 10 years.
Also much more economic activity will be generated by buying a Volt, not just the car but the electric generation etc.
Dec 29th, 2009 (4:29 pm)Honda is having warranty troubles with their batteries so they are reprogramming the software in their hybrids (toning down battery workload, car will not go into EV mode as easily) when the customer brings the car in for service.. as a result the mpg drops, lots of people got upset and sued. They are having a lot more battery failures than Toyota.
-1
Dec 29th, 2009 (4:30 pm)That was too long of a read there bro. My A.D.D kicked in on the first paragraph.
Dec 29th, 2009 (4:38 pm)I also saw this a couple of days ago:
Panasonic’s new home battery could store a week’s-worth of electricity
http://green.venturebeat.com/2009/12/24/panasonics-new-home-battery-could-store-a-weeks-worth-of-electricity/
Not sure if it’s related.
Dec 29th, 2009 (4:40 pm)Further to the 28 miles of range comments… that is exactly what seems to be implied during the video. They show the screen twice, and from it you can see that the car is set to get ~28 miles on electricity. This assumes the car was fully charged when the trip computer was reset. No guarantee of that, but it all seems to add up.
For those of you thinking that you will get much more than 40 miles, I don’t know how much more evidence you need to see that 30 miles is more probable… be it the constant “up to” disclaimers from GM, the fact that Farah (I believe it was him) said he had never managed 40, that GM is giving the “up to” 40 with no accessories on, that GM has stated that the EPA measurement is 32miles (and as bad as that is, GM didn’t give the highway measurement, so it is probably worse), that the 40 claim was initiated at a time when we know that GM knew pretty much nothing about the prod Volt, that videos like these seem to point to less, that every other electric car seems to suffer from less than ideal conditions (why would the Volt be different?), etc.
Dec 29th, 2009 (4:42 pm)They are actually using 2.2Ah laptop cells from Panasonic and achieving 150 mile range routinely.. I think that is a sweet spot for electric cars.. if so desired the customer hits a button on the charger to mandate a 100% charge, resulting in the official 244 mile EPA range, but that will shorten battery life a bit.
Dec 29th, 2009 (4:42 pm)Bonds and Common Stock are NOT the same.
This stock will go to zero and be removed from the stock listings before the new GM stock is created. There will be no option to convert old GM stock to new GM stock.
+1
Dec 29th, 2009 (4:44 pm)In 2006 I purchased almost 1000 gallons of gasoline.
In 2010 I expect to come in at under 500 gallons. My new pickup gets 19 mpg instead of 15 (AND has 100 more HP), consolidated trips resulting in total miles down from 14,000 to 11,500, using 50 mpg motorcycle for some of the runaround on nice days.
I’m looking at several (affordable) options to replace my car that could easily bring me under 300 gallons/year by 2012.
I don’t expect my QOL to change one bit, and I don’t plan on breaking my piggy bank either. The technology is here now. It just needs to get implemented.
-1
Dec 29th, 2009 (4:44 pm)I notice that I got voted off the island at number 48.
I’ve been posting her through most of 2007, 2008, and 2009, or almost 3 years in all, and am #18 on the want list (understanding, of course, that it is only symbolic). Sometimes I have praised gm and sometimes I have criticized gm, both before and after bankruptcy. I have enjoyed the interplay of comments, many very thoughtful and informed., It is interesting that it all comes to an end because of my comments about a TV personality, though I understand how passionate people are about them.
C’est la vie! Best wishes everyone. I hope you get your Volts early and find them to be wonderful cars.
+1
Dec 29th, 2009 (4:51 pm)That’s a really good point.
Most people seem to assume that a shift away from foreign oil will lower our quality of life. But if you look back though history, change has usually been a a big driver for the economy. And the technology that replaces things usually offers significant improvments.
So things will be different, but not worse.
-1
Dec 29th, 2009 (4:57 pm)From 2.2Ah to a 3.4Ah is a boost of 1.2ah/cell!!!
Wow, maybe that;s enough for the batt pack to give the “real world” range of 300miles? I’ve heard they hypermiled to 317 but I hear more often 244 on avg.
Dec 29th, 2009 (4:59 pm)I wouldn’t take it personal RB. It’s probably just Dan Petit and God putting their votes in.
I’ll grant you that it does seem more difficult lately to have a discussion about the volt if you’re deemed to not be waving the GM flag. A lot of the more critical (reasonable, imo) contributers have left the board.
-1
Dec 29th, 2009 (5:02 pm)I ran across that at some point. I recall seeing something the size of a refrigerator though, but it was from Panasonic and it was for home energy storage. Storage for a whole week though, man that’s a baotload of cells! Especially if they are the 18650 types. One would think using the larger prismatic types like SkyEnergy and Thundersky have would be easier.
Dec 29th, 2009 (5:17 pm)Don’t know about the Mini, but Tesla uses 2.2Ah cells.
-2
Dec 29th, 2009 (5:17 pm)Let me see ..Volt cost above $40k …90% of folks in US make $6-12/hr ..& yes they will all run over to GM & buy the Volt …especially the banks are only giving loans to those who have good credit ..Just look at the Repo show on TV man so many just slide on the payments & then wonder why the Repo man came over to pick up the car ..
Hope Nissan prices its Leaf right or even that will become out of range price ..
Dec 29th, 2009 (5:40 pm)If the Volt actually weighs in at 3900 as suggested in the video, and the Prius PHV weighs in at less than 3200, that would suggest the Prius will get about 14% better fuel economy. So if the Plug-in Prius gets 48 MPG highway, then the Volt would figure to get 41 MPG. But the trade-off is being able to go more than twice as far in all electric mode (14.5 for the Prius, 28 to 36 for the Volt.)
Dec 29th, 2009 (5:46 pm)…and was the elevator version!
-1
Dec 29th, 2009 (5:47 pm)Can anyone supply an answer to this: What happens if the Volt is plugged into 240v? Before you say “smoke”, recall that this vehicle is intended for worldwide distribution. Most of the world’s outlets are 220v. They can’t seriously consider using different chargers in different parts of the world- can they?
Dec 29th, 2009 (5:53 pm)First, it looks more like the Volt will be significantly less than $40k:
http://gm-volt.com/2009/12/22/will-gm-surprise-us-with-the-chevy-volt-price/
Second, there is a $7500 tax credit, so the effective price could well be under $30K.
Third, the Volt will save $7000 in fuel costs over a Prius over it’s 10-year lifetime. You may not own it for 10 years, but someone will, and saving $700/year in fuel costs over a Prius is definitely worth something in resale value.
Fourth, $6-$12 hr corresponds to roughly $12K-$24K annually. I’m pretty sure 90% of the folks in the U.S. make more than this.
Fifth, the Volt won’t be in showrooms until 2011. Most economists agree that by then the recession will be over and banks will be lending again.
Dec 29th, 2009 (5:57 pm)The standard has already been set for the connector as well as the electrical characteristics of charging staions.
The one selected is the “SAE J1772″.
http://www.zoomilife.com/2009/04/21/sae-j1772-the-new-plug-standard-for-electric-car-charging/
The charge stations will have to meet the specs. 220/240 is very common and it doesn’t take much adapt either to meet the specs.
So no smokey smokey.
-1
Dec 29th, 2009 (6:00 pm)I’m not particularly worried about the 3900 lb weight. If the Volt is a solid, reliable, well-built car, and if the price isn’t overwhelmingly high, it will be a hit – the consumer won’t quibble over the extra weight.
Over time, as new technology ICEs come on-line, and batteries are designed to be able to handle greater depths of discharge, the car will shed weight like a boxer in a steam room.
The key here, in my opinion, is the ability of the Volt to attract a market. If it does that, the systematic improvement of the Voltec technology will follow as part and parcel of the normal product development cycle.
Again: the key is to make the first car solid and reasonably priced. If GM can manage that (and, from everything I’m seeing, I think they will), EREVs will be here to stay.
+3
Dec 29th, 2009 (6:00 pm)I guess that explains why you’re still here.
‘Not waving the GM flag’ is one thing, refusing to wave it is something else.
Dec 29th, 2009 (6:12 pm)No RB, you didn’t get voted off the island; one of your comments was voted into invisibility. You are still welcome to come back and try your luck with another (as you’ve just proven). Don’t be a sorehead.
I plan to come back and post again, even after the votes I’m sure to get after that last comment of mine.
Dec 29th, 2009 (6:13 pm)Where did I see this same post before? Try adding solar and wind power as good alternate sources of energy. Also, I emphasized conservation in my previous comment.
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
If I remembered right I posted a followup comment with a chart with my comment.
-1
Dec 29th, 2009 (6:15 pm)No one is accepting claims like that at face value anymore.
You must explain what numbers were used to determine that.
+1
Dec 29th, 2009 (6:15 pm)The Volt’s charger is similar to a switching power supply found on computers and many other modern electronic devices. It works with a range of input voltages from 100-250 volts. So when you plug in into different voltages, it just adapts naturally.
In addition, the 220v power in Europe runs at a different frequency. North America is 60 Hz, Europe is 50 Hz. Switching power supplies have no problem adapting between these as well.
Bottom line: It’s not a problem.
+3
Dec 29th, 2009 (6:16 pm)ziv says,
“But even there, if memory serves, Weber nodded his head when asked if it was 50-50, he didn’t say it himself. I understand why they (GM) are so close mouthed, but it is kind of irritating.”
**********************************************************************
If you think GM is close mouthed, try Toyota. Excuse me–I forgot, Toyota can do no wrong.
-1
Dec 29th, 2009 (6:17 pm)6:00 pm
Nobody left here but us hard core nuts, LOL.
Oh well, LJGTVWOTR!!
+1
Dec 29th, 2009 (6:22 pm)As I’ve said before, solar and wind power have very little to do with reducing oil consumption. Less than 2% of our electricity comes from oil.
+1
Dec 29th, 2009 (6:25 pm)6:12 PM
+1, LOL.
Is that right? -10 and your comment disappears? Who knew? -10 isn’t much really. I swear I’ve seen -20 for some of our troll friends.
That’s all right. I’ve quit for good several times myself, hahaha. Just like Micheal Corlone, “Just when I thought I was out, they pulled me back in.” Come on RB, how could we get along without you? At least you know that someone’s paying attention. Any votes are good votes, LOL.
+3
Dec 29th, 2009 (6:27 pm)As we all know, hell could break loose in the Middle East. With that said, the Volt could be the car that saved us from complete disaster in the USA!
Hope that never happens, but the hand writing is on the wall.
+2
Dec 29th, 2009 (6:28 pm)Interesting comments about foreign oil and terrorism. While I agree that many an oil dollar has found its way to a terrorist, it probably is also safe to say that non-oil dollars have also found their way to terrorists. Saudi Arabia isn’t just sitting on their petro dollars, they’ve invested them in big multinational companies. Lots of drug money ends up in terrorist hands.
Here’s something to ponder. Right now, the world population is estimated at around 6.8 billion. Of that “pie”, China has 19.7%, India has 17.6%, and the United States has 4.5%. With those kinds of numbers, I think it is safe to say that many more of the traditionally poor people in China and India will be “moving up” from walking and riding bicycles to driving cars in the coming years than drivers in the U S will be weening themselves off of foreign oil as they move to relatively expensive electric cars. In short, the U S could be 100% driving electric cars, and oil demand throughout the world would still be on the rise, continuing to channel funds towards radical Islam terrorists.
My personal belief is that the only way to defeat radical Islamic terrorism is to recognize it for what it is, and make every effort to kill them before they kill us. We need to be and stay on a war footing, where we try and smoke them out before they strike, not on a law-enforcement footing where we deal with their crimes after the fact. I think that the Obama administration, along with many other governments throughout the world, are trying to deal with it as the latter, since radical Islam departs from what we’ve seen in the past when we’ve been at war with nation states that have clearly defined borders. As an analogy, think of your computer’s hard drive showing up on your desktop. If you want to “go to war” with your hard drive (a thought that I’m sure has occurred to many people at one time, but I digress), it would be easy to find it inside your computer and destroy it. What if you had the same hard drive icon on your desktop, but this time it was “virtual” – that is, many parts of drives scattered all over the internet were virtually combined to present a single hard drive icon? (Yeah, I know, unplug from the internet). You see what I’m saying, hopefully.
We need to realize that radical Islam is at war with everyone who doesn’t believe what they believe, that it spans all borders, and that it may be as big as the government of Iran to as small as the guy who shot up Fort Hood. Believing that one or one thousand or one million people going out and buying a Chevy Volt is going to make a 0.0000001% reduction in terrorism is nothing more than wishful thinking, IMHO.
What would motivate me into buying a Volt? “Made and Fueled in America.” Using American-produced energy to mostly power the Volt is appealing to me. To further the extent to which we can do that, I want us to drill for more American oil and gas, build more American nuclear, hydro, wind and solar, and conserve more of what we have to keep those energy dollars in our own economic loop. Anything that makes us economically stronger, with a byproduct of more American jobs, is a good thing in my book.
-1
Dec 29th, 2009 (6:28 pm)6:22 pm
Yeah but they could if we had more electric vehicles, right? Isn’t that the point?
Dec 29th, 2009 (6:47 pm)[...] 2009.12.30 by gravityloss Jay Leno testing one briefly. It’s a plugin series hybrid, the gasoline engine doesn’t “help” the [...]
Dec 29th, 2009 (7:02 pm)From what others have said, it was Jay Leno who estimated that high weight. I got my figure from Wikipedia and yes I did say estimate. Take it for what its worth. It makes for interesting conversation which will be vindicated one way or another in the future.
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
Dec 29th, 2009 (7:04 pm)I think the point is that it’s not our money that’s going to fund terror. Does that make a difference? If we find other uses for the money, I would suggest that it does.
Suppose we put a fraction of our present oil import payment into new sources of energy, making electric vehicles (and everything else) run more on American fuel, so to speak. This in turn will bolster further adoption of electric cars (as well as bolster our economy directly), resulting in more money we’re not spending for oil.
Eventually, what we no longer spend for foreign oil will add up to quite a sum; perhaps enough of one to “stay on a war footing, where we try and smoke [terrorists] out before they strike.” War is a very expensive business, and there is much political hay being made over how to fund what has been spent up to now.
I’m actually on your side for most of what you say, just pointing out that it’s not a straight foward relationship between what oil we displace and what terror we stop. It also has very much to do with the money we’re not paying for the oil displaced, and what it is spent for instead; even if actual terror funding is more than made up for by other oil buyers and investments.
Dec 29th, 2009 (7:04 pm)We have more than enough coal to power electric cars. The U.S. has been called the “Saudi Arabia of coal”. So solar and wind power have very little to do with reducing oil consumption.
Solar and wind power have to do with global warming. Opinions about global warming vary roughly as follows:
• 1/3 of the population believes global warming is a hoax.
• 1/3 believes global warming is real, but won’t affect things that much
• 1/3 believes global warming is a critical issue that must be dealt with immediately
With those demographics, nothing will ever happen. All you will get is lip service. So we can either:
a) wait for opinions to change, or
b) find something that everyone can get behind right now.
Reducing our dependence on foreign oil already has wide political support, and it will also help prevent global warming, so it’s obvious to me that this should be the goal.
Dec 29th, 2009 (7:13 pm)Your assumption is that EREVs will remain expensive. I think that’s a bad assumption.
The Volt’s battery currently costs $8000. By 2020, the same battery should cost $2000. Those figures come from the CEO of CPI, the company that currently assembles the Volt’s battery packs.
What’s to stop China and India from building EREVs?
Dec 29th, 2009 (7:17 pm)Tag, you are right about apples and oranges; in addition to your point about the batteries, all CaptainJackSparrow needs to do is look at the Mini E and then the Volt. The Volt has far less air resistance than the Mini E. Also, do we know that BMW has a climate control built into the Mini E to keep their battery in the comfortable zone like the Volt has?
I am not sure where Captain got the 80% and 70% figures from! Can you please clarify Captain?
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
Dec 29th, 2009 (7:31 pm)As the saying goes: Follow the money…
We will never win the war on terror through military might alone. If we kill them, the Saudi clerics will just make more terrorists in their radical Islamic schools.
To really win the war on terror, we must remove their source of funding.
-1
Dec 29th, 2009 (7:40 pm)So you don’t drive???
Happy New Year!
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
-1
Dec 29th, 2009 (7:42 pm)I saw/heard Farah agreeing when Leno brought up the weight. One would think Farah knew what he was talking about.
In the video it’s down to a bout 4:12 in.
Dec 29th, 2009 (7:47 pm)You’re losing me. First you say oil is fungible and any increase in demand increases the price that Saudi Arabia or Iran receives for their oil. I get that. But now you’re saying that you only want to stop using foreign oil (and I’m assuming you’d consider oil from Canada or Mexico to be “domestic”).
Seems inconsistent.
Not arguing with your national defense point, but in order to keep growing economically we need a less expensive source of energy regardless of whether the source is domestic or foreign.
-1
Dec 29th, 2009 (7:49 pm)Yes BMW heats and cools the pack — you really have to — but it’s an air not a liquid system.
-1
Dec 29th, 2009 (7:51 pm)I’m so glad you don’t think I’m being critical. (that means a lot to me, *sniff*)
I do have a flag that I like to wave. It’s got a big “V” on it. V is for Viability.
-1
Dec 29th, 2009 (7:51 pm)At various times some family members may have thought this was a good idea in my case, though not for these reasons. LOL
-1
Dec 29th, 2009 (7:52 pm)I got the 70% from Lyle saying he get’s ~70 miles range on a full charge where 100miles is spec’d for the Mini-E. It was in one of the threads.
I got the 80% from a few other posters here that are Mini-E owners saying they got 80 miles on their Mini-E where 100miles is spec’d for the Mini-E.
Any Mini-E owners please correct me if I am totally way off on my numbers.
In cold weather it’s obviously worse. Good thing they used 100 miles as the range. It’s easier to calc percentile!
-1
Dec 29th, 2009 (7:58 pm)I have a flag too.
But “V” is not for viability……lol
+1
Dec 29th, 2009 (8:00 pm)Well that settles it. I’m cutting back on drugs. (g)
Happy New Year!
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
+1
Dec 29th, 2009 (8:02 pm)
Dec 29th, 2009 (8:03 pm)Sorry, still apples and oranges.
Happy New Year!
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
Dec 29th, 2009 (8:04 pm)I thought your calculations used a base 6 system — 6 pack, . . .12 pack, . . . case, . . etc.?
Dec 29th, 2009 (8:05 pm)Vodka?
Dec 29th, 2009 (8:06 pm)My understanding is that the Mini_E battery is “air cooled”. As such it’s performance may suffer more from the extremes of temp in either direction.
Happy New Year!
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
Dec 29th, 2009 (8:06 pm)We’ve had enough hinting on specifications to know what to expect from the Volt. Is the first quarter of 2010 too early for public test drives? Will NGMCO really wait until November to start production?
=D~
Dec 29th, 2009 (8:07 pm)I think an oil tax would accomplish much of what you want to do, and it would entail a lot less government debt. I’ve never understood why the government would subsidize something like oil, and water. And then pay people to reduce their consumption. It’s a lot simpler and cheaper. And involves a lot less transaction costs.
As far as requiring a 12 mile AER–it’s not as bad as cafe (which basically requires automobile manufactures to produce cars they’re going to have to take losses on in order to produce the cars they can sell at a profit.)
But basically, you’re having the government pick winners and losers, which makes no sense when it comes to developing new technologies.. For one thing, I don’t think three years is anywhere near enough time to convert. You’re making the 40 mile AER less relatively attractive. You’re barring reasonable alternatives (EREV commercial vehicles, Biodiesel, etc.)
And given the high price tag on all new cars, people would wind up keeping their old cars a lot longer. They might even decide to get by with fewer cars. That might throw the domestic auto manufacturers out of business, which would mean a massive net loss of jobs. (Toyota and Honda have deeper pockets, and they have access to the Japanese market, which could sustain them in the meantime.)
By the way, I completely agree about the trade deficit, and the US accumulated debt. And our standard of living collapsing. But that’s not just about oil imports. Oil constitutes less than half of our trade deficit. We need to hang onto our manufacturing base. That’s just as important to our long term standard of living as finding a substitute for oil .
Dec 29th, 2009 (8:07 pm)How can they heat the pack if it’s just air?
Happy New Year!
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
Dec 29th, 2009 (8:09 pm)Viagra.
Happy New Year!
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
Dec 29th, 2009 (8:11 pm)This seems to be the approach being used at present but it’s easier to say than do because it’s hard to figure out who the terrorists are and sometimes more difficult to figure out where they are.
Given the easy access to guns and explosives in this day and age it’s hard to keep random people from shooting or blowing things up. The trick is disrupt terrorist organizations so they can’t become large, because the larger the organization the greater the havoc it can create. In this endeavor cutting off funding is key.
Dec 29th, 2009 (8:16 pm)I know that. My point was that if you want stock in the new GM, buy the debt of the old GM that’s been converted to equity in the new GM. I never said buy the stock of the old GM! That’s clearly worthless.
Dec 29th, 2009 (8:23 pm)Get our oil use down, to about 1/3 of what it is today. This will allow us to get our troops out of the middle east.. Then they can all go back to killing each other, riding camels, and sleeping in tents.
Everybody’s happy.
+1
Dec 29th, 2009 (8:24 pm)Gasoline is not the only form of oil consumption. Yes. You are drastically reducing your use of gasoline, and thereby your oil consumption. That’s a real accomplishment. And the United States, and the world is better for it.
But you’re not cutting your oil consumption in third. Not even close. You’re still consuming oil directly in the form of food, plastic, heating oil, possibly electricity, etc. And indirectly, when you buy things that were delivered to a store near you. Or had something mailed to you, that reaches you by truck, ship, airplane, and even most trains.
Dec 29th, 2009 (8:31 pm)Let’s ask the Russians.
How to drink vodka – proper way.
http://www.totallyupyours.com/4957622ecaaa5-ho_to_drink_vodka___proper_way.html
Dec 29th, 2009 (8:34 pm)I don’t think it’s impossible. Right now, absolutely. And for the foreseeable future. But with technological advances, anything possible. It’s definitely not an all or nothing thing, IMHO, the more we reduce our consumption, the better off we’ll be. But zero is what we should work towards, IMHO, even though we won’t achieve it anytime soon.
I don’t see the big difference between foreign and domestic oil. We get most of our oil from Canada and Mexico. The issue is that, as you said, oil is fungible. If we could export oil produced domestically, that would seriously hurt Saudi Arabia and Iran’s profits in Europe and Japan and China. And it would reduce Russia’s leverage with Europe. Etc. (Although they probably wouldn’t need as much anymore either.)
Dec 29th, 2009 (8:38 pm)OUCH, that burns.
Happy New Year!
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
Dec 29th, 2009 (8:43 pm)… erev 1/2 ton truck….
Dec 29th, 2009 (8:44 pm)I agree with the goal of becoming an oil EXporting country having sooo many benefits. We *used* to be there (and were better off), and we should work toward getting that status back.
Happy New Year!
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
Dec 29th, 2009 (8:54 pm)I somehow missed your post the first time round, but please don’t leave! I enjoy your posts. I find them thoughtful and intelligent, and I’ve learned from them. And I’m sure others here have to. I think the negative vote has become a shortcut for “I disagree,” and I certainly don’t think one unpopular post means anything.
For whatever it’s worth, my interest in celebrity endorsement is that it will hopefully make the Volt more successful. I want the Volt to sell, and I think this will help. Other than that, I could care less what Jay Leno or any other celebrity thinks.
Dec 29th, 2009 (8:54 pm)I went back and listened again. He did agree with Jay Leno!
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
Dec 29th, 2009 (8:56 pm)Just finished “green” house building project this year. Electric bills look like they’re going to average less than 600 kwh/month over the course of a year (i’ve got 6 mos of data). I suspect similar savings on natural gas heating (not enough data yet). This is with normal thermostat temperature settings and 10′ ceilings. (i.e. I’m not giving anything up). I guarantee you the average house of my size is using 2 to 3 times this much electricity.
I’ve estimated my payback time on my “green expenditures” buiding the house at 3 to 5 years depending on utility costs. Last year it was 16c/kwh, this year it’s 9c/kwh.
I do my part and argue with the fence posts, that’s about all I can do. Maybe I’ll put a web page up.
Efficiency is the name of the game. If we ever want to get off of foreign oil or onto renewables — smart affordable efficiency is the prime mover.
Dec 29th, 2009 (9:04 pm)I should really read all the posts before I make a comment. It would save a lot of grief.
These are significant differences with regard to the battery climate control. I thought I had seen something that said the heaters for the batteries were electrical. Although this video gives an indication that GM did use liquid cooling and heating for the battery. Just the fact that Jay Leno made several statements, which Andrew Farah did not correct indicates his statement were correct.
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
+1
Dec 29th, 2009 (9:15 pm)If the US converted to electric cars, chances are that China and India eventually would to. That said, I agree that even if oil went to zero dollars per gallon, it wouldn’t end terrorism.
However, it would make terrorists less dangerous since they would have less access to funds for weapons. And it would make it less appealing to potential terrorists since there wouldn’t be as much monetary compensation or chance of success. And, most importantly, oil money helps extremists like Bin Laden get his “message” out. Saudi Arabian priests use Saudi oil money to preach their especially extremist version of Islam to otherwise moderate Muslims. Obviously, not all of them listen. Most of them don’t. But enough do.
Dec 29th, 2009 (9:17 pm)American as apple pie?
Conservation has been pitched by ascetics as paying more and working harder to have less. I turned that around to be -solving a series of puzzles to live better more efficiently for myself, and to use that knowledge to make things better and more useful, not just smaller.
Dec 29th, 2009 (9:19 pm)Ok Captain! Now I can better understand where your going with these calculations. I still believe that air resistance plays a big part in the lower AER below range estimate is the reason for the lower actual AER experienced. During some of the trails runs of the Volt mules, there were statements that they were actually experiencing higher than 40 AER in some cases and mention of the figure of 40 AER as an average.
As for me, where I live will have a huge influence on my actual AER because of the need for HVAC here in the valley. My problem will hardly ever to cold weather although we have had many cold days down around 40 degrees and a few near freezing.
S0 it is possible that your figures may be correct. I’ll wait patiently for the test results a few months from now. We may get lucky and get a sneak preview of winter test sooner.
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
Dec 29th, 2009 (9:26 pm)That was my understanding also, Tag. It’s not safe to make assumptions without closer scrutiny. However, Captain’s figure may end up being valid. We need to hear about those winter test reports.
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
P.S. Isn’t it great fun speculating?
-4
Dec 29th, 2009 (9:27 pm)GM will surely be the biggest joke in America!
+1
Dec 29th, 2009 (9:30 pm)I agree. Maybe someday we’ll find a cheap clean fuel that we can afford to waste. But right now conservation is key. And, yes, we can only do our individual bests to cut down on our oil consumption, which is why it’s so frustrating to me that the government refuses to do anything.
My point was simply that not using oil is not feasible in today’s society, as much as I wish it was. And that if our society was abruptly cut off from 2/3rd of our oil supply, our economy would stop functioning. Hopefully, that won’t always be the case.
+3
Dec 29th, 2009 (9:31 pm)I’ve done this many times, and whatever I say – you try to bash it.
So let’s turn this around. You put up some numbers of how much the Volt will save in yearly fuel costs over the Prius, and I’ll try to bash it.
Until you put up some estimates, I’ll continue to ignore your requests.
Dec 29th, 2009 (9:32 pm)Typically, GM would shut down its plant production for a month during which employees take their vacation and the plant’s machinery is updated for the next years models. GM will have produced quantities of Volts before the November release date in order to get them delivered to the dealer lots by that time.
Will a GM assembly line employee fill in on this issue. TIA.
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
+1
Dec 29th, 2009 (9:34 pm)I’m not so sure I would agree that just because Andrew Farah did not correct several statements that were made that we can assume they were correct. He may have just been trying to be polite, or the statements were in the general ball park or what I really think is maybe GM wasn’t ready to “officially” release/acknowledge some information. There seemed to be a lot of body gestures and head tilting instead of actual answers to some of the questions. I suspect Andrew has been coached very well on what to answer and what to let slide until the time is right. GM has a good thing going right now with interest in the Volt being high and speculation helps keep it in the news.
Dec 29th, 2009 (9:36 pm)AMEN!
Happy New Year!
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
Dec 29th, 2009 (9:42 pm)They use electricity from the battery pack; very little but enough to heat the pack a little. Perhaps to little
Good question Tag. I was wondering the same question. You caught it first!
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
Dec 29th, 2009 (9:48 pm)
Dec 29th, 2009 (9:52 pm)Yes, well said.
But conservation by itself won’t solve our problems. Conservation is an important piece of the puzzle, but we’ll also need other sources of energy for the total solution.
Dec 29th, 2009 (9:54 pm)I understand heating from the battery while it’s plugged in, but it seems like a real waste of AER if it’s during the vehicle’s operation.
Happy New Year!
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
+3
Dec 29th, 2009 (10:06 pm)The U.S. consumes 25% of world oil production, and most of that is imported. So if the U.S. could just stop importing oil, all of the things you say above would likely come true. And as you say, once we pave the way for oil Independence, Europe and Asia will follow, and countries like Saudi Arabia, Russia, Iran, and Venezuela will lose their power over the rest of the world.
I like James Woolsey’s analogy with Salt. Here’s the end of his speech:
“Salt was the only way to preserve meat until the very late 1800’s. It had a monopoly. Believe it or not, countries went to war over salt mines. If you had a salt mine, you could dominate your neighbor. It was a very big deal.
“Today – salt on the table out there. Do you know where it came from? Are we salt independent? Do you care? Does anybody care, unless they’re in the salt business? Of course not. It’s a useful commodity that does some things, and we buy and sell it in international commerce. Nobody dominates their neighbor anymore because they have a salt mine.
“We need to do that to oil. And we can do it with electricity the way electricity affected salt monopolies in the late 1800’s. We can, we should, and we must, as a major national priority, destroy oil’s monopoly. Absolutely, totally, completely, destroy oil’s monopoly.”
Dec 29th, 2009 (10:07 pm)Remember that the battery will be use only 60% of it to garantee 10 years of good working condition. So they have enough battery to used to get close to 40miles. It’s only a sowfwear correction, when wil the deplition of battery will triger the motor. And they stll have a year to get there. 3900pds won help though.
Dec 29th, 2009 (10:08 pm)Anyone want to speculate on when GM will start making “near production quality” Volts? I’m thinking that they should have at LEAST a pool of them available to show off on Independence Day. May maybe?
Happy New Year!
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
Dec 29th, 2009 (10:10 pm)I have stated on these gm-volt.com posts that conservation is an important factor in better utilization of our energy sources, especially with regard to our coal burning plants. Industrial use of coal in our production plants is far more efficient than in generating electricity. Very little of the heat they generate is used to create electricity. The majority of the heat goes up the stack into the atmosphere along with the pollutants like CO2. We generally don’t look at heat as a pollutant. This is one area where engineering needs to step up to the plate and solve the problem of how to reduce all that wasted heat from going into the atmosphere. How can anyone deny that human consumption does not result in global warming: just look at the number of coal burning boilers dumping calories into the atmosphere. We need to engineer more efficient boilers. Just like the ICE that is only at most 35% efficient, the generation of electricity by burning coal is worse. The conservation efforts I have been preaching about have to do not with sacrifices but how we go about using our natural resources in a way that does not waste them as in the case of coal burning boiler plants. We need to change the way we use our sources of energy as well as what sources we use.
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
Dec 29th, 2009 (10:17 pm)Just got in from working 10 hours in todays rain and sleet (8:00 pm local).
No, I wasn’t a party to all those negative numbers at all.
I never vote a negative where it might even remotely seem that someone is honestly just wanting to get a Volt, or might seem to be concerned about Volt not coming out in larger numbers.
I never vote negative unless someone has a really really bad narcissistic head trip going. Most posters here just want that Volt.
IMO, Critical thinking is not about making critical statements. Critical thinking is not being a critic. Critical thinking means that an issue is analyzed in a very deep manner so that commonly held misunderstandings about it are clarified or a deep problem solved.
Dave G is an excellent critical thinker. Tag is also an excellent critical thinker. Laura is also an outstanding critical thinker. Most others are also when they believe the need is there to help with understandings.
Just expressing an opposing view is not critical thinking. Correcting an oversight is not critical thinking. Critical thinking requires lots of careful hard mental work.
I say what I say about GM because from my experience and true beliefs.
/side note:
(Off Topic. This is *NOT* related to *anyone* here, but I want to share something I’m seeing out here in the independent servicing sector slowly increasing:)
One of the worrisome things I’m seeing in service bays (regarding a complete abandonment of critical thinking/analysys), very sadly, more often than I want to see whatsoever, is that some people are resorting to drugs that speed up their synapse times. And, very sadly, they actually believe that they are doing better[sic] work on vehicles (because of the increasing less-manageable complexities) when all they are doing are forming speculations quickly. They instantly do not any longer have the capabilities for working hard (due dillegence) to analyze the 70% of the problems that nowadays remain hidden.
They are slowly but assuredly putting their employers out of business. They become arrogant and too self-assured and 100% diagnostically inept, because their synapses are firing off in *old pre-established pathways*. Premature “historical association-conclusions” that can not come close to the required depth for new-kind-of-problem solutions-discovery for every new novel problem (which is the greater portion of work). (The “working/thinking brain waves” are called “Theta”, and, they occur when there are certain-length pauses in the dialog before an answer).
Instead, fast and sudden and loud “flashy-sounding” insufficient “conclusions” that never go anywhere are projected, and, it’s increasingly worrisome to see this happen more and more as vehicles become more and more overly-complex ICE wise. (You have to at the very least feel sincerely badly for them in their desperation to attempt to keep working). (Also, one has to feel bad that there is no choice but to abandon helping that business for awhile at least). I’m just hoping that electrification will solve or at least reduce this situation in addition to the many other problems we all face.
I hope no one minds this off-topic post.
There are concrete reasons for liking GM a lot.
+1
Dec 29th, 2009 (10:19 pm)Tag, a winking smilly face got edited out of my comment. I was just joking about using the battery to heat itself.
But it sure would be a waste of power!
Happy trails to you ’til we meet again.
Dec 29th, 2009 (10:29 pm)Dan,
I’m sorry to hear of your frustration(s), but I hold some significant comfort that you have a very firm grasp of the universe of things over which you hold some control (and of those over which you have no control). Losing sight of “which are which” (even momentarily) is seriously disconcerting.
Be well my friend,
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
Dec 29th, 2009 (10:31 pm)LOL, THEN it makes sense!
Happy New Year!
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
Dec 29th, 2009 (10:35 pm)At a display that I saw the Voltek platform was on display and there was a person there talking about it. The guy explained that the charger was under the hood (not on the wall) and it would take any voltage from below 110 to something above 240 and across a frequency range such that 50 HZ was no problem. It is not necessary to set switches – the “charger” will automatically sense what is there and adjust to it. The only adjustment is the fact that if you have 240 volts you can set the charge to two (at least) different “speeds”.
Dec 29th, 2009 (10:40 pm)Not frustrations exactly, just occasional dissappointments that just need to be left were they are. And, from describing the ways this situation shows itself, I hope that everyone can possibly identify this sort of thing and keep their distances as well. (Because, boy, can that sort of thing get expensive in the repair bill).
Dec 29th, 2009 (10:44 pm)LOL, I’m just glad that *you’re* the one that has to watch the sausage being made.
Happy New Year!
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
Dec 29th, 2009 (10:55 pm)HAA! That’s *the* perfect way to describe it!! LOL!
Tag, you just made my day.
I almost always spot it before getting involved and being required to stay around. (But it does take practice and some effort to later think of all the possible deep ways to attempt to charitably prove/disprove that such statements *ARE NOT* “sausage” being made).
Dec 29th, 2009 (11:02 pm)Well, on that positive note, I’m going to call it a day. See Y’all tomorrow.
Happy New Year!
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
Dec 29th, 2009 (11:04 pm)I was just going to say the same.
Dec 29th, 2009 (11:10 pm)… and here all along I thought it was for “Vilify Volt”
“… and that should tell you,” I think to myself. But then you turn right around and say:
… proving that it is actually possible to agree with you about something … every once in a great while.
Dec 29th, 2009 (11:28 pm)YES YES YES, this is what I have been waiting for for so long. An ACTUAL car guy take the car out for a drive. Jay Leno is a huge inspiration influence to me and I would take most anything he says as gospel. With that said its nice to see that there wasn’t anything that went belly up, it was all smooth sailing. With the Tesla Jay noted how the car was a riot to drive and very tight ingress and egress, with the Baker it was the “froo-froo” aspects of it. But NONE of that with the Volt, positive remarks all around and its really inspiring to hear that.
I think Jay’s “blessing” is a good sign for the volt team.
I CAN’T wait!
+1
Dec 29th, 2009 (11:36 pm)More food for thought: In 2008 United States net petroleum imports equaled to 11,114,000 barrels/day, while U.S. Motor Gasoline Consumption equaled 378,000,000 gallons/day. This is equal to 8,989,000 barrels of oil/day or roughly 81% of net petroleum imports.
For all of 2008, we imported 4.056 Billion barrels of oil at an average price of $94.04/barrel. That equals $381.5 Billion of our wealth that we sent overseas on imported oil, which could have otherwise been spent in the US economy. How much additional GNP (and the related jobs and tax revenue) could that $381.5 Billion have generated had it stayed in the US economy?
Why do I want to buy a Volt? If every passenger car in the United States was a PHEV with a 40 mile electric range, then 78% of the demand for passenger car gasoline could be eliminated according to a Bureau of Transportation Statistics (BTS) Omnibus Household Survey of US commuters. In 2008 that would have equaled 2.559 Billion barrels of oil, or 63% of all net imported oil for the year. Said differently, that would mean another $240 Billon that could have remained in the US economy (not spent on imported oil).
http://tonto.eia.doe.gov/energyexplained/index.cfm?page=oil_home#tab2
Dec 29th, 2009 (11:38 pm)I’ll be first in line at my local dealer for a test drive …..hopefully soon.
In a couple days we can finally proclaim ” The Volt is coming out THIS YEAR ! “
Dec 30th, 2009 (1:33 am)Since most of the world is already at 240V except for North America it will suit Europe and Asia very well.
Dec 30th, 2009 (4:35 am)While the shock and transition period would be a monumental disaster that none of want to go through, the reality is that if we new the imported oil spigut was going to be turned off 3 years from now we could transition in a reasonble manner if we could avoid the panic.Bottom line is that we don’t truely “need” that much oil to function but it sure is darn convenient and cheap.
Dec 30th, 2009 (4:43 am)I think you mean pitched “at” ascetics in this way. The pitch by ascetics would be “use what you actually need, not what you want”.
Dec 30th, 2009 (5:00 am)You are being too kind to the silent majority. Most Germans weren’t NAZI’s but that didn’t prevent the atrocities of WWII. It is high time that the “moderate” majority withdraw their tacit support for their radical brethren and find a way to peacefully join the 21st century global community while still retaining their cultural and religious identity. I think the Muslim community can reconcile this or we will never move past the current cycle of terrorism. They must, or at some point enough of the rest of the world will eventually blame Islam and it won’t be pretty.
Dec 30th, 2009 (5:03 am)The New GM stock is available yet, but I’m looking forward to buying some when it hits the market. When it first hits the market it will rise sharply at first, so but early.
Dec 30th, 2009 (5:06 am)Yes, liquid conditoning for the battery. The originally planned air but switched to liquid early on.
+1
Dec 30th, 2009 (5:22 am)+1
3900lbs, if true, explains the 0-60 creeping up toward 9 seconds (not that 0-60 means didly to my driving but it doesn’t help 0-30 or 40-70). I read Farah’s rsponse as 3900 is in the ballpark. Could be 3600lbs. In any case, this is a little disappointing but if they still get 40 miles AER from 8KWh then who cares? In perspective of Gen2,this is actually a plus IMO because it represents another area for imrovement. Smaller battery (~12kwh), lighter genset, lighter materials, and voila 3000-3200lb Gen2 Volt with better peformance noticeably better city economy. Highway efficiency will only be minimally affected.
-1
Dec 30th, 2009 (5:25 am)Even Volt won’t offer a 40-mile electric range. The realities of winter really mess up that statistic.
Also, we are 10-20 years away from a majority of apartment & condo dwellers having a plug routinely available. And who knows about about those who live in dorms. The issues from liability & plowing make landlord-provided plugs quite a challenge.
+1
Dec 30th, 2009 (5:42 am)HUH? 40 miles AER on 8kwh. If you hadn’t noticed, the Volt is an EV. The energy draw is the same, CS mode or not. As long as it is 40 miles AER on 8kwh, it could be 40,000lbs and wouldn’t matter other than to represent an opportunity for future improvement.
Dec 30th, 2009 (5:57 am)I just can’t visualize Jay in a LEAF. Has Toyota called Jay to see if he would like to test drive the new hybrid Yaris? The Honda P-NUT?
=D~
+1
Dec 30th, 2009 (6:00 am)-1
Surprisingly, you presented the worst case. It indicates a range of 26-45 miles depending on where in the tenths they started and finished the ride.
Dec 30th, 2009 (6:24 am)i disagree. 40 miles AER means charge depleting most of the time for most people. Greater than 40 mile trips will be relatively few and mostly on the highway for far more than 40 miles. I think opportunity charging, beyond workplaces and apartment parking, is an inconsequential issue for the Volt. Highway CS mileage will matter for many but the indicators I’ve seen from GM and the component efficiencies are 40-45 mpg highway.
Dec 30th, 2009 (7:43 am)Laura,
doubt you’d still be checking for feedback, but imported oil at $200 a barrel would be a HUGE amount of money that if it were redirected into our own economy would create many jobs. Thats why this should be the no brainer number 1 priority of our country, it solves so many problems in one stroke. Trade deficit, creates jobs in new auto and energy industries, reduces (or eliminates) our need to keep a military presense in the middle east, takes money away from our enemies on and on.
The only downside to a 5 year plan (that would create jobs and grow our economy and standard of living) to eliminate imported oil is the obvious chaos that would result in the middle east.
If we were focused we’d be able to do this in 5 years, and we’d be the leader in these technologies and the rest of the world would follow. The loss of oil money to the Iran’s and Saudi Arabias of the world would destabilize those governments and it undoubtedly would get very messy over there. But after what they’ve done to us I say good (though I always think we need to support governments and movements that stand for freedom with human rights etc., I just think we need to do it without sending our soldiers, send trainers, train them on how to call in airstrikes, use the predators, but keep our soldiers safe).
-1
Dec 30th, 2009 (8:00 am)
Dec 30th, 2009 (9:12 am)That depends, the Volt’s battery will be conditioned if it’s plugged in over night, and the cabin will likely be warm already, assuming you remembered to program it. Remember, it can use grid power to warm both before you drive it. That will help maximize EV range!
+1
Dec 30th, 2009 (9:14 am)If the battery gauge precision is in tenths, then best case is 11% usage displays as 2 tenths usage.
Say the actual capacity was 75% and their algorithm is rounding up so the display shows 8 tenths. Now they drive 5 miles and use 11%, leaving 64%. The display will then show 6 tenths.
5/.11 = 45 miles AER best case
Dec 30th, 2009 (9:41 am)Employers will face those same liability & plowing challenges, not to mention cost.
And for those of us who park in a municiple ramp, forget it.
-1
Dec 30th, 2009 (9:49 am)Sure, we can do it your way.
How about the 16 miles at 6/10 and 21 miles at 8/10?
Your “best case” example would then have 16/.64 = 25 miles total range and 21/.75 = 28 miles total range (which would average out to 26.5 miles)
Funny how it comes right back to the 26 again, isn’t it?
/Did you see the part in the video where Jay commented that the battery range indicator had indeed dropped 1 mile after 1 mile of travel?
Dec 30th, 2009 (9:53 am)Hopefully Smart Grid technology will help once it becomes available. (You plug in to a public recharging outlet, and the grid recognizes your car and your electric account is charged for the KWh purchased).
+1
Dec 30th, 2009 (10:43 am)Sheeesh! I thought your math and logic skills were a little better than this. You were extrapolating range for Jay Leno’s trip based on screen shots that may or may not have represented solely his 5 mile drive. 2/10 on a display in 1/10 increments can mean between 1.1- 2 tenths, period. This isn’t an interpretation. Now, what happened to the Volt’s usage before Jay drove it is anybody’s guess based on a displayed battery range mileage extrapolated from recent driving. That indicator mileage can be greatly affected by creeping into and parking in the garage, not to mention shooting footage with the car on but still. The details that matter are the distance traveled (actually may be 4.7 miles if you look close) and the battery usage. The math for this is indisputable (25-45.45 for 5 miles driven and 2/10 of displayed usage). Negativism cannot argue around this.
-1
Dec 30th, 2009 (11:48 am)And denial is a river in Egypt. (you really should back out of this, you’re rapidly losing “logic points”)
+2
Dec 30th, 2009 (12:29 pm)Deep.
What can you take of meaning from those screen shots besides 4.7 miles driven and 2 bars of battery capacity? Instantaneous range is meaningless unless you know how it is calculated and how the car was utilized for the sampling periods. Neither of us know this.
Dec 30th, 2009 (3:22 pm)carcus1, Jackson, Noel
Thanks for your comments. My plan is to take a vacation for a while, cool down, and then come back. Nothing is forever.
+1
Dec 30th, 2009 (3:53 pm)What a great endorsement from America’s premiere car enthusiast! Couldn’t be better. Jay did not over-sell or under-praise the VOLT. And suggesting that people take it for a test drive is the perfect suggestion.
The more we see this vehicle in action the more it looks like a plain ole Chevy for the family. Which is exactly what GM set out to build – except with breakthrough technology under the hood.
Congratulations GM on yet another excellent piece of promotion for a vehicle that is revolutionizing human transportation. Win win!
Dec 30th, 2009 (4:09 pm)3:22
Right! That’s what I do, LMAO. See you on the flip-flop good buddy!
Dec 30th, 2009 (5:30 pm)Based on the screen shots, I can determine that the car’s computer ( based on a history of previous use/discharge) thinks that the total CD range of the volt on a full battery will be very close to 26 miles. The math is pretty simple on this.
You are trying to counter with 2 different arguments:
Argument 1: Due to rounding errors on a battery gauge that is broken into 10th’s, we cannot determine total range.
On Argument 1:
We have 3 different data points that show a 26 mi total range.
1. Battery SOC at 8/10 and corresponding range.
2. Battery SOC at 6/10 and corresponding range.
3. Miles travelled on Trip A (11.7 – 7.0 = 4.7, or a change of 5 (21-16) on the range gauge) and corresponding drop of 2/10 on SOC
All 3 of these point very nearly to 26 miles on a full battery.
As I already demonstrated, if you take your “best case” rounding error for the 2/10 difference on the 5 mile scenario, it washes back out when you use the same “best case” battery SOC readings and use the 21 and 16 mi computations. **This is the part where you’re being illogical. You can’t claim rounding errors that result in 25 to 45 mi range when we have this much data.**
We can also conclude that the car was on track to run out of battery at something pretty close to a total of 26 miles travelled on the battery. This assumes the computer is working correctly, which we did have some verification on when Jay pointed out that the car had indeed travelled 1 mile and dropped 1 mile on the range gauge . . . he made a pretty big deal about this.
Argument 2: Because we don’t know how hard the car was driven, we can’t determine how close the range we’re seeing in the video will be to EPA testing standards.
This argument is valid. All we have is a little bit of video evidence of how the car was being driven, but as far as your guess that the car’s range was compromised by sitting with power on or moving in the garage, that’s real world too, isn’t it?
So in summary:
Argument 1: Dead.
Argument 2: You could say they drove it really hard, I could say they drove it really easy. There’s little to go on either way.
/As an aside, if you assume that trip A was zeroed out at a full charge (and no opportunity charging in-between). Then the two screenshots indicate 27.7(11.7+16) AER and 28.0(7.0+21) AER
Dec 30th, 2009 (5:37 pm)Good idea RB. I just might do that, myself.
Dec 30th, 2009 (8:50 pm)And yet, it gets 40 miles electric, and supposedly, around 50 mpg on gas.
That’s a pretty slippery pig.
Dec 31st, 2009 (5:41 am)
Dec 31st, 2009 (6:13 am)Supposing ended a few weeks ago, when we got to see a test-drive which clearly didn’t deliver that.
And now with the discovery of the weight being well above average, that expectation has vanished.
Dec 31st, 2009 (9:48 am)You can count on Jay for a good “Car” report.
Now that it is winter it makes me think that there should be an electric heater in the Volt that when plugged in to charge, could run the heater all night keeping the inside of the vehicle toasty warm with windows clear and ready to roll to work.
Is this a feature or at least, an option?
Looking forward to the release of the Volt to the dealers for public viewing.
Dec 31st, 2009 (9:55 am)Really? You seem to be saying this with utter conviction, so is it unreasonable to ask that you back up this accusation in a tangible way? Maybe a Paypal escrow bet? Could be for $1, but something to show you are willing to risk public embarrassment to backup your accusation. Otherwise it would just be a baseless and scurrilous accusation, right? So which is it?
+1
Dec 31st, 2009 (6:53 pm)One can not conclude anything from the screen shots, because you don’t know how badly someone stomped on the accelerator pedal for the last few miles. The software is calibrated to under-value remaining range as a value based on the energy-abuse (exactly the same logic as for ICE), as shown with that low figure on purpose, to tell the driver, *in the context of that recent energy demand* that if that sort of (abuse) demand continues, then this is what you are going to get for mileage/range. This is not a hard thing to understand.
koz, you sir, are COMPLETELY correct on this. PERIOD.
Dec 31st, 2009 (7:23 pm)You sir, are actually arguing my side of the case.
For that (and because you make me laugh) +1
Dec 31st, 2009 (8:33 pm)Then next time, just say it as concisely as I just did. I don’t think you are just trying to argue both sides of a position to hedge (to try to be in the “right” no matter what anyone else next responds). But sometimes “on the other hand” helps to distinguish your position, then your statements will come through more clearly and, well, “very cool”.
That way, you may be seen as more logical like DonC and many others it seems to me. And, you need not be defensive if you are correct about something. When or if someone misunderstands you (or misunderstands anyone else), it seems not to come from facts presented, but maybe it’s defensiveness. Or, maybe it’s just that it is difficult to understand what side of an issue in particular the text is referring because all the other issues discussed above your (or any one else’s post) sometimes.
Framing a post first with context helps a lot too. Sometimes that’s difficult when the posted thread rambles all over the place, as interesting as that is, because maybe we are still processing factual content we just read above any given post, which can complicate or confound some things that just get posted afterwards, and, true singular meanings.
Context can be an elusive thing when readers have to work too hard to attempt to understand if there is something concrete a poster believes in (philosophically for me). That helps a lot when readers can understand all the concrete things you believe in.
Everyone knows I deeply believe in GM vehicles because of the last 40 years I’ve worked on them, and the last 36 years I’ve been teaching people about them. So, I don’t bs anyone about GM’s excellent designs, even though I might usually sound like a GM commercial all too often. (Which I certainly understand might sound *reeeeeely* irritating to a Ford buff). But I think that everyone’s intent is generally an effort to be **helpful and “cool”** overall, and, I hope you believe me there.
Dec 31st, 2009 (8:59 pm)In a matter of months, all of these questions will have answers.
Happy New Year!
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
Dec 31st, 2009 (10:53 pm)Hey Tag,
Happy New Year to you too. I know it’s going to be a terrific one.
One of the good things I like to do is to work harder to understand how people want to express technical stuff of all kinds in as many diffferent ways as I can understand how they mean things. That’s really important. As long as there are not unwarranted personal attacks, like, against people (at GM or elsewhere), I’m perfectly ok with critique about the applications or misapplications of things/technologies. Especially for *us all* to try to learn to be better Volt/GM customers from the technical perspectives if getting a Volt is indeed *our* true intent in the first place.
How much more time for your New Year to “ring in” where your time zone is?
Two hours and five minutes to the New Year here in Austin Texas.
Dec 31st, 2009 (11:00 pm)I’m Eastcoast time. T-1 hour!
Happy, Healthy, and Prosperous New Year!
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
Dec 31st, 2009 (11:02 pm)New York City?
Dec 31st, 2009 (11:11 pm)Nope, I’m in the geographic center of Penna. Right next to absolutely no where. 30 miles north of Penn State Univ.
Happy New Year!
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
+1
Dec 31st, 2009 (11:15 pm)Great university Penn.
I went to St. Edwards U. here in Austin.
~200 hours by the time I finished. Major is learning psych. and general studies. Excellent education there, worth every (expensive) penny because the classes were all small, and I got to ask *lots* of questions.
Dec 31st, 2009 (11:27 pm)Time to get back to the party. Have a terrific time. See you in 2010.
Dan.
Jan 1st, 2010 (10:39 am)You probably should have asked where Penn is.
+1
Jan 1st, 2010 (2:41 pm)Sorry Carcus1, it just doesn’t work this way. 21 & 16 are just numbers on the screen unless you know have the computer is calculating range and you don’t. You whole argument hinges on the accuracy of these computer generated range estimates and they don’t even line up with the actual data as well as you presume. 11.7 miles traveled on 40% of battery equates to 29.25 miles AER. I was only pointing out that based on the known data (not numbers that you don’t know how they are generated) you gave basically the worst case and the answer can be a range anywhere between that worst case and the best case. BTW, I didn’t even included margin of error for mileages displayed in one mile and 1/10 mile increments.
Have you ever taken note of range numbers displayed in current autos. They start varying greatly as the gas gets near empty. You can be driving at a somewhat steady 40 mph rate with 30 miles range showing. Stop at a long light and accelerate away from it and your range may dip down to 15 miles. This is why you can’t mix the estimated range numbers as hard data with the “real” numbers without knowing how they were calculated.
Do you think after 4 years of consistantly stating 40 miles AER that the first Volts are going to roll of the lot with a full battery and 26 miles showing on the range display? Or, do you think it will say 40 for the first mile or so and then change to 25? Doesn’t make much sense does it?
I think if you step back and look at all of the information objectively, you’ll find about 73% battery capacity before and about 60% after Leno’s drive (if that actual is what the screen shots are showing) make the most sense.
Jan 1st, 2010 (4:09 pm)You took up 4 paragraphs to say: “The gauges are inaccurate and can’t be trusted. The Volt’s real world AER must be 40 because GM says so.”
(You are now introducing argument # 3 [Volt's gauges are inaccurate].)
/ I already plainly posted that my contention (based on the screenshots and simple mathematical interpolations) has the Volt’s computer giving a real world AER (on that day, under those conditions) with a full battery at close to 26 miles. Based on the screenshots you CANNOT logically determine that rounding error has the computer estimating a full battery AER of 25 to 45 miles. We’ve got too much data for this.
// I am NOT countering your argument # 2 [harsh driving has produced greatly reduced AER]. (I’ve got nothing to go on, neither do you)
/// I am NOT countering your argument # 3 [Volt's gauges are inaccurate]. (I’ve got nothing to go on, neither do you)
So, …….. I’m in agreement with you when you say:
“You[r] whole argument hinges on the accuracy of these computer generated range estimates…..”
YES!! Correct! Everything I’ve been talking about is based on the Volt’s gauges being accurate!
Jan 1st, 2010 (4:50 pm)If you would like Leno’s take on the accuracy of the range gauge, you can see that at 1:50/13:03 in the video.
Jan 1st, 2010 (6:18 pm)BTW Koz,
I did not give the worst case AER based on your ‘jacked up rounding error” method.
The worst case (using your method, not mine) would be that 8/10 of a tank = 89% SOC and 6/10 of a tank = 60% SOC. Using 4.7 miles off the trip A odometer would then have a full tank yield of 4.7/.29 = 16.2 miles AER.
Jan 1st, 2010 (11:03 pm)The Volt looks like an interesting car to me. Just seems like we have been talking about it so long that I’m getting tired of the wait.
The comments on this thread seem to be mostly thoughtful and constructive so I’m going to take a chance and ask a question that I’ve wondered about for a long time but never seen addressed.
I understand that what we think of as a hybrid today (i.e. Prius) uses a gas engine and electric motor in conjunction. The electric motor for the most part supplements the gas engine in situations requiring more power such as initial acceleration so that a smaller and more efficient gas engine can be used and then some energy is recovered in the braking process.
All eclectic cars (i.e. Tesla) use electric power only and must be plugged in and charged. They do not have the ability to charge the battery on there own.
The Volt is unique in that it is the only car I’m aware of that used electric power only for power and in essence has a built in electric generator on board.
Finally my question. Why has it been so difficult and taken so long to develop this? It’s really sort of like diesel electric locomotives have been around for many years isn’t it? I think modern locomotives are powered only by electric motors and the diesel engines only generate electricity. Did GM shoot themselves in the foot by making a requirement that the car get 40 miles from a single charge? It seems like the general idea is a good one in that typical car engines waste a lot of fuel because they often run at less that ideal speeds so take a smaller engine and run it only at optimum speed to charge a battery that powers an electric motor to move the car. Wouldn’t it make more sense to have a car that when a much shorter distance on battery power alone at least until battery technology improves or oil prices increase to the point of making the battery only range more cost effective and the ability to plug in at home or office more prevalent? It would also seem to make sense for the motor to be diesel instead of gasoline. I think the “sweet spot” for diesel engine efficiency is at a higher RPM which would be good for charging the battery. I understand that this would require the engine to cycle on and off fairly frequently but is that really a problem.
Maybe I’m just missing something but thanks in advance for any (thoughtful) replies.
+1
Jan 1st, 2010 (11:18 pm)Your question kinda turned into several questions.
GM went with the 40 mile AER because that covers ~80% of drivers’ daily driving needs. The “wait” was partly due to getting battery technology where it needed to be to cover both the range and the ability to charge/recharge reliably for 10 years and 150K miles. PART of the wait (I believe) was a matter of corporate will (or the lack thereof). When Lyle “discovered” the concept Volt, he picked up the ball and has been encouraging GM ever since.
Happy New Year!
Tagamet
Let’s Just Get The Volts’ Wheels On The Road!!**********NPNS
+1
Jan 1st, 2010 (11:53 pm)3900 pounds means room for improvement (that’s how much my Volvo station wagon and last midsize pickup truck, both with 4WD, weighed) . With that weight low and distributed though, and good engineering, it probably has decent handling characteristics and may feel more like more of the beef on rails that Germans like than some other vehicles in the same or a higher price segment. GM will know they have succeeded on weight and cost when Nikola Tesla, Colin Chapman and Adam Smith all shake their hands for the same Volt configuration.
All you tree hugger hypermilers on this site please keep your mitts off the L and Sports mode, for one footed driving with extra horsepower. Those are mine! Mine! My preciouuusssssssss 100% electric drive Volt in L and Sports modes! I just hope it doesn’t make really weird tire wear, the way that my 1982 Buick Skyhawk did.
BTW, I’d even be deleriously happy with a standard AER of less than 10 miles on mine, since I have a short, non-highway commute. I’ll still get amazingly good mileage, just not quite as good as those of you who want that most. I bet the Stig will prefer L and Sports mode, too.
I’m already picking out my aftermarket graphic for my doors. Here’s my current favorite, to remind GM that they have successfully changed an entire transportation sector to an electric drivetrain configuration before:
Jan 2nd, 2010 (12:20 am)“Malibu-Sized ” is a misstep if the goal is to expand market share (thus, the CA initial release) , not cannabalize other GM models. Compare it to current (full gasser) European vehicles in the same price segment, instead, for example, and highlight the qualities that Volt has that the current (full gasser) European vehicles don’t have, such as luxury completely smooth instant, strong acceleration, like body lotion applied by an expert masseuse at a high class spa. ok, I guess the Opel Ampera can go head to thead with the Volt, but that’s about all.
Jan 3rd, 2010 (1:36 pm)True, not sure what my initial thinking was. I do not expect they will round down. Either rounding up or to the nearest whole number would make most sense. Not sure why they didn’t just show display smaller increments so the change appears more continuous.
Jan 3rd, 2010 (1:38 pm)Eyeballing a change coincidental change in the separate increments (miles range vs miles driven) doesn’t discount the margins of error in question.
Jan 3rd, 2010 (1:49 pm)I have no general issue with GM criticisms. I have often enjoyed the experience myself. My issue is that they have “hung their hat on 40 miles AER”. If it had only come from Lutz or the like at this point, I’ld be more skeptical but they have consistantly confirmed this number and many months ago one of their lead engineers confirmed they had confirmed 40 miles while testing the mules on the city and highway EPA cycles. To assume from some screen shots and presumptions that this is 26 miles in realty is being overly critical. From everything we are seeing and hearing, my guess is that these 40 mile results are the raw test data and not what gets applied to the window sticker numbers. The 2008 changes will reduce the “real” world numbers to around 38 city and 35 highway, in my estimation. If this is accurate, GM has left themselves open to just criticism. Hopefully that can tweak the operation and battery window to get 40′s on the sticker but I think it will take a little more than 8.0KWh to attain this.
Jan 3rd, 2010 (2:11 pm)The range estimate is not a gauge. If it were then the discussion would be different.
Jan 3rd, 2010 (6:25 pm)Ok. I can’t do nomenclature and you can’t do math. I guess that makes us even.
I’ve waded through all the sophistry (sure seems like the right word) I can take.
Good day.
Jan 5th, 2010 (3:56 am)Lovely the Volt battery has finally has been revealed thanks Jay.