I consider myself a fan of fuel efficient vehicles. At this point the Volt seems the best thing coming, although within the next couple of years there will clearly be a plethora of options to choose from. This will include pure EVs, EREVs like the Volt, plugin hybrids, and standard hybrids both mild and strong.
Right now it isn’t really possible to walk into your local dealership and pick up an electric car, although you can get your hands on one with a lot of effort and money.
What we do have at our widespread disposal are state-of-the-art hybrids. Though GM for example has applied hybrid technologies to its large trucks like the Chevy Tahoe, and that serves its purpose, I feel focusing on the small light sedan and optimizing it for efficiency make the most sense to me.
From my work here on GM-Volt.com not only have I been given and continue to get unrestricted access to GM executives and engineers, but I enjoy access to executives and vehicles from all the automakers. A particularly fun perk is getting one-week test drives in some of the latest cars. I took this opportunity to test drive two of the latest mainstream hybrids, the 2010 Prius and the 2010 Insight. I will have the 2010 Fusion hybrid next week.
I compared the Insight and Prius side by side on several parameters, and offer a video of my impression at the end of the post.
I found the Prius to outperform the Insight in all areas but price. It is faster, more powerful, more solid and better handling. It has better interior space and technological nuances. Mostly importantly it got tremendous fuel economy. On a 6.5 mile course I was able to achieve 92.5 MPG in the Prius, with reasonable driving style and moving safely with the flow of the traffic. On another 12 mile course I obtained 81 MPG. The Insight could only achieve 62.5 MPG on that same course.
The Prius beings at $22,000 and the Insight at $19,800, making price the only parameter the Insight did better. Recent reports indicate Honda is scrambling to put out a mid-cycle engineering upgrade to the new Insight to address its shortcomings.
At the end of the day however, neither of these cars can be compared to the Volt. Though I have yet to drive the production model it will clearly be faster, more powerful, quieter, cooler and more high tech. Most importantly it will drive 40 miles without the use of any gas at all. Yes it will at first be more expensive, yet after rebates at $32,500 a Volt is only slightly more than a fully loaded Prius which is $31,770.
+5
Jul 27th, 2009 (6:33 am)Thanks for taking a whack and evaluating what’s available to the public right now, Lyle! I eagerly anticipate your inclusion of the Ford Fusion in this review after next week!
A quick question : are you allowed to let anyone besides yourself test drive these vehicles? It would be great to see 3/3 people rate one vehicle as best handling, etc. Of course it’s not your job, and you should be allowed to enjoy your car, so I’ll leave it at that.
..though for me it’s:
NPNS!! =D~~~
+3
Jul 27th, 2009 (6:44 am)I wonder what Toyota and Honda are saying in their board rooms about the progress of the Volt. How worried are they that GM will score a home run on this?
+2
Jul 27th, 2009 (6:53 am)Toyota has their own secret program should PHEV become popular, so far their open opinion is that it has limited appealing to the general public and technically it is not mature yet.
+5
Jul 27th, 2009 (7:12 am)Whilst they are trying very hard to play down the Volt, this is a threat. That said, I think they will have quite a bit of time to catch up as the volt will be released in small quantities, and in stages (not all countries at the same time). This will allow others to evaluate the Volt, its acceptance, and the technology to potentially do one better. The price also allows leeway too, as 40k is not in everyone’s price range. Yes there is a subsidy, but the $7,500 won’t be around forever. even with the subsidy this still leaves a rather large gap between the Volt and the competition (base models), and is not going to be in every country.
The other manufacturers will adapt if they think there is the need, though hopefully the Volt will only benefit from potential competition.
+1
Jul 27th, 2009 (7:13 am)A 92 mpg figure at 6.5 miles ought to be performed also at what would use a full gallon. The reason I mention this is because the fuel ratios can be skewed if you divide the 92 by the 6.5 and get a very low fraction of a gallon. It may work out even higher if the engine were fully warmed up, and certainly lower if the engine was cold from overnight.
The test comparisons ought to have me involved with utilizing a Genisys here in Austin, so that the baseline values could be fairly compared utilizing the external jump-drive feature of the Genisys, and, comparing not only about 10 4,000 dataframe recordings from an exact “service bay temperature from overnight” baselines, to an exact set of recordings of both vehicles.
Analysis of 6 concurrent waves of the major PIDs on a laptop after a 60 mile drive circuit around Austin both at the same time with two Genisys scan systems set up with jump-drives for recording comparisons would provide far more tightly controlled sets of datum.
This would be to confirm that there are no software hacks that unfairly represent a technical inconsistency anywhere.
I will be working this week with the State of Texas Recognized Emissions testing programs for just this sort of confirmation of a certain “non-factory” “non-OEM” aftermarket product utilizing the Genisys. (Only a Genisys at the 2007, not the 2008, but the 2007 upgrade level can reveal software compromises, irregularities, hacks, “mods”, damages from “mods” that always occur when they are “non-facory”, inferior aftermarket parts “junk” which rips off the consumer, and on and on.)
While it is understandable that an OEM would be reluctant to contact me (I’m in the phone book), because I regularly “blast” marketing inconsistencies (and just plain “bs”) here on this thread, (which forum I am very thankful for), the one thing I must always do is be strictly fair as well.
If overall, the usage of gasoline is so drastically reduced so as to set the stage for meaningful chances of survival of future generations, then I must fairly consider it.
While cost per month to the owner might be slight between a 60 mpg auto and a 90 mpg auto, there still is far less tonnage of carbon dioxide being set off into the atmosphere.
The competition here is for the survivability of future generations as far as I am concerned, not money or market or who’s “biggest” or “best”. Although Voltec is clearly what is the best set of technologies for practicabilities in the electrification transition.
Jul 27th, 2009 (7:25 am)Thanks for the comparison test Lyle.
Leaves one wondering why it has taken Honda so long to get in the game. And why another Civic/Corolla/Prius/Focus clone? Where is the .400 hitter CR-V hybrid? Or the rugged Pilot EV?
Looking forward to the Ford review.
=D~
+5
Jul 27th, 2009 (7:32 am)A Prius thread, with some Insight thrown it…this can’t end well, lol.
I myself have driven both of these vehicles and agree with Lyle’s assessment right across the board. I will add that the Insight fit and finish level did seem to be off compared to other Honda’s I have owned in my lifetome – Civic, Del Sol (well, the wife had this in our ‘youth’).
I think the last gen Prius would have given this Insight a run for its money, which is disappointing, I originally thought/hoped we would have a challenger to the crown, I even put a $500 deposit on one (well before we knew anything about the true nature of the Insight, or the new Prius).
The Insight badly needs some ‘retooling,’ and fast.
+1
Jul 27th, 2009 (7:36 am)From the article: … the next couple of years there will clearly be a plethora of options to choose from. This will include pure EVs, EREVs like the Volt, plugin hybrids, and standard hybrids both mild and strong.
————————————————————————————
Yes, this will be the competition. Here’s who will win:
• EREVs
• Strong hybrids
The fear of being stranded will prevent mass adoption of pure EVs. Plugin hybrids offer too little advantage to justify the extra expense and inconvenience. Most mild hybrids are more of a green marketing excercise than anything else.
By contrast, EREVs and strong hybrids offer real advantages with no compromises. The costs of both will come down over time.
Jul 27th, 2009 (7:41 am)PHEVs will fail – not enough benefit to justify the extra cost and inconvenience. EREVs like the Volt will easily beat PHEVs.
+1
Jul 27th, 2009 (7:43 am)Lyle said: “Recent reports indicate Honda is scrambling to put out a mid-cycle engineering upgrade to the new Insight to address its shortcomings.”
—-
I think Lyle is referencing a ditty from Autocar a week or so ago, here is the article:
===================
“Honda speeds up Insight Update”
Honda is fast-tracking an upgrade to the Honda Insight to counter the threat posed by the new Toyota Prius.
With the Prius now trumping the Insight’s 85mpg with 107mpg in the same Japanese test cycle, sources in the cars’ home market say Honda engineers are being put under pressure to improve the Insight and close the gap.
While economy will take priority, it’s believed that Honda will also take another look at the chassis to try to refine the Insight’s unsettled low-speed ride.
In the sales race, the Insight got off to a roaring start in Japan in the early part of this year. The Honda even became the nation’s best seller with 10,481 units in April, the first hybrid car ever to achieve that position in Japan.
However, things move fast in the fad-driven Japanese market, and the arrival of the new-shape Prius in May had a dramatic effect on the Insight’s sales, which fell to 8183 units. The car is also being outsold by the Fit (Jazz), 13,016 of which were sold in June.
http://www.autocar.co.uk/News/NewsArticle.ASpx?AR=241724
-4
Jul 27th, 2009 (7:51 am)Lyle,
You’re review wasn’t intended to be biased, right? Because when you give your opinion on looks, you’re being overtly biased. When you give your impression on ride, you’re being overtly biased. Your comment about the sound level, overtly biased. Offering a comparison of cars with a six thousand dollar (30%) price difference, overtly biased.
My point is this. You scored the two cars based upon what you like, personally. Nobody cares what you like. Nobody cares what I like. Unlike you, I think the Prius looks terrible from the rear end, like they ran out of redesign money and just shoved the project on to the next step in the manufacturing process. Unlike you, I think the muffled engine sound in the Prius is a huge disappointment. Hey, one man’s noise is another man’s concerto. I think that what you call a “solid ride” makes my butt sore after a significant drive. It just doesn’t matter what you think, personally. When you’re doing a comparison, stick to the objective facts, not the subjective opinions.
Is the Honda Insight 30% uglier (in my opinion, it looks better)? Is the Insight 30% less roomy? Is it 30% worse on fuel mileage? Is it 30% slower getting up to highway speed? Is it 30% less comfortable on a long drive? Is it 30% sloppier in a corner? If no, then why does the Prius cost 30% more out of my wallet? Now that’s a really good point of comparison. Given that, as a nation, we’re struggling to make our house payments, send the kids to college, pay our taxes, keep the cupboards full, save for retirement, why are we giving such a big “tip” to Toyota for the Prius?
+5
Jul 27th, 2009 (7:51 am)Thanks Lyle, your analysis is consistent with other evaluations on the internet. The solar powered fan might make sense in Phoenix, but I look forward to the day all cars have “low E windows.” Hopefully the Volt will sport this technological advance from the get go.
+5
Jul 27th, 2009 (8:01 am)Price will be the huge stumbling block…and to convince a Prius owner to switch to a Volt could be a hard sale. Some features of significant value are often overlooked…for instance the Prius…
- 10+ years of continued production sales to the general public of ONE hybrid powertrain type
- A million+ units in the field
The Prius HSD may be still new tech to some people, but after 10 years, it has established itself as a proven powertrain. The Volt will be for people willing to take a risk on the new GM…
- EREV is more expensive
- a company recently out of bankruptcy
- a company that offers several types of hybrid powertrain types (BAS, 2 Mode, EREV)…but models have not lasted long due to lack of sales volume…so the support from 3rd parties is almost non-existant
- a company that has admitted lackluster issues in the past
However, the Volt is an awesome vehicle…and it should sell well. But can EREV get to million+ vehicles in the field at a $40K+ price?
+2
Jul 27th, 2009 (8:04 am)Sidenote: I appreciated your wardrobe change in the video Lyle, very Hollywood.
(0:10 vs 6:00)
Jul 27th, 2009 (8:09 am)Having driven both vehicles myself and observing your reported gas mileage, I can say with great confidence that what you call “reasonable driving style” most others consider hypermiling to an extent many would find very annoying, stressful, agitating, slow, etc. It’s true that the Prius blows the Insight away in this type of driving in the city and stop/go traffic. A better comparison would be between the two vehicles in the manner in which regular people drive. You can find many such real world reported numbers on many blog sites; it looks like Prius low to mid 50′s, Insight high 40′s to hovering around 50 in city/highway mixes. Not quite the blowout that it appears when you take them to the extreme (very interesting that both are also beating EPA estimates by a healthy margin). Too bad the EPA doesn’t use a real test track so we could get even better estimates.
+1
Jul 27th, 2009 (8:14 am)Dave G says strong hybrids and EREVs will win. I agree they are superior designs, but price is such an important factor, I’m really not sure they will be the winners in terms of numbers sold.
+6
Jul 27th, 2009 (8:17 am)If you can review or compare two products without your opinion then you are in a class of one. If you ask me if I think the ride of one car is better than the other I can only give my opinion. I have a hunch that mags like car and driver use the drivers opinion. If the review had said the ride is 30% stiffer with the prius you would have had no idea as to what that ment. Was it still sloppy on the road or is it like riding on a gravel road? 30% stiffer would only be helpful if YOU had driven only one of the cars and you compared it to your OPINION.
+13
Jul 27th, 2009 (8:18 am)Hermant argues against Lyle giving his opinions. I see things quite the reverse. Especially I like knowing Lyle’s opinion.
+4
Jul 27th, 2009 (8:23 am)Talk about “form following function”! I’ld almost swear the doors are interchangeable on those two vehicles. I know I am completely biased but try as hard as I can to be objective I still think the Volt is significantly better looking then either of those cars.
+7
Jul 27th, 2009 (8:30 am)It seems to me that the hybrid fuel economy races has turned into a pissing contest not much different than the horsepower wars of years past. A manufacturer redesigns a car… so what do they do to improve it? Add more power. Mininal benefit to the consumer, but it helps sell cars.
Now the big thing is adding more fuel economy. If you go to http://www.mpgillusion.com, you’ll realize that if you increase a vehicle’s fuel economy from 90 mpg to 100 mpg, the yearly gas bill difference is relatively small. Again, minimal benefit to the consumer, but it helps sell cars. Going from 30 to 40 MPG will make a bigger difference in money saved.
Then again, 40 MPG to infinity MPG for the first 40 miles sounds even better.
+22
Jul 27th, 2009 (8:33 am)Hi everyone,
I bought a Ford Fusion Hybrid 3 1/2 week and it has been impressive. My regular MPG on most suburban trips is between 55 and 67. My best mileage to date on suburban loop of 7 miles is 78.1 MPG (!). All in a car that is wider and much heavier then a Prius.
The biggest kick I get is driving at 45 just on electricity.
I’ll have a YouTube video up soon.
Richard
-4
Jul 27th, 2009 (8:38 am)You cannot compare this Prius to the 2011 Volt. There will be at least one more upgrade to the Prius (possibly two) before the Volt released. The next generation Prius will be much less in cost than the Volt. And the most important factor of all and the main reason more people buy Toyota than any other make: QUALITY. You cannot underestimate the quality found in a Toyota. GM Quality…ummm…you don’t wanna go there believe me.
Jul 27th, 2009 (8:39 am)It is true, a EREV will always cost more than a BEV. And a BEV more than a hybrid (at least for a very long time-decades). How much more…and how much value the customer associates with the benefit of a EREV, or a BEV over a hybrid will be the deciding factor on a numerical basis of how many sold.
It is very difficult to see past the first initial ‘wave’ of excitement/pent up demand for both EREVs and BEVs…what is the ‘going forward’ demand? Very hard to judge at this point, hopefully it is strong.
+3
Jul 27th, 2009 (8:47 am)The price you quote for Volt does NOT include Solar Roof. BTW, there are more advanced Solar Cells than those used in the Prius that would do a better job. Anyway the future plug-in Prius should also qualify for IRS rebate. Comparing similar 2012 models of the Volt vs. Prius you are going to find at least a $10K price differential in my opinion. The Volt will never be able to recoup this difference during its lifetime, hence the Prius will reamain on top. You heard it hear first. Nice try Chevy.
-2
Jul 27th, 2009 (8:50 am)Nice reporting Lyle. Lucky you, you get to test drive all these cars.
When you said “At the end of the day however, neither of these cars can be compared to the Volt”, you were right in more ways than you mention – The Prius and the Insight are made in Japan.
The Chevy Volt will be made in America.
In these dire economic times, when so many of our fellow Americans are out of work, I think we should try to keep as much of our money within our own shores as possible. After all, isn’t the whole idea of all these high-tech vehicles to stem the tide of money flowing to foreign countries? Especially the ones who hate us?
Japan, of course, is our friend. They make excellent cars. But the American car companies now make vehicles that equal or exceed the quality of anything made in the world today.
So I urge anyone who is in the market for a hybrid or electric vehicle to wait for the Chevy Volt if you can. As Lyle said above:
“(The Volt) will clearly be faster, more powerful, quieter, cooler and more high tech. Most importantly it will drive 40 miles without the use of any gas at all”.
To this I would add – and it will be MADE IN AMERICA.
+6
Jul 27th, 2009 (8:54 am)You got 92 MPG in a real world Prius test drive. That is totally awesome. I will test drive the Prius this week and check out this beauty myself. I thought that 50 MPG was the max possible. OMG, this might be my next car.
+4
Jul 27th, 2009 (9:00 am)Sorry, Charlie – er – Ray …. the link between “Toyota” and “quality” has long since deteriorated. Ford has surpassed Toyota in most measures of quality, and GM has drawn even – but don’t let facts get in your way of shilling for the Japanese !
+7
Jul 27th, 2009 (9:00 am)The correct statement would be ASSEMBLED IN AMERICA. As most people know the major components such as the Battery (Asia) and Engine (Europe) are made outside America. Also many of the smaller components are made in Asia, Brazil, Canada and Mexico. Remember GM is a Global company. I would estimate the 2011 Volt is about 32 percent “Made In America” at best.
+2
Jul 27th, 2009 (9:05 am)If your only measure of success is price, then buy a bike. Consider the impact of $4/gallon …. or even $5/gallong gasoline on your calculations – wait, you didn’t bother to do any.
Jul 27th, 2009 (9:06 am)Pictures of the Nissan wireless charging station:
http://www.autobloggreen.com/gallery/nissan-ev-11-prototype/low/#5
+8
Jul 27th, 2009 (9:11 am)hey all… Short up date on the 2010 Fusion Hybrid which I picked up last week…
I filled the tank on Wed. The travel indicator in the top right corner of the dash stated that I have 880 KMS till empty..
I have driven approximately 375 KMS on this tank and the travel indicator states that I still have 675 KMS till empty…
The fuel gauge is showing 3/4 of a tank left after 375 KMs… So far I am extremely impressed with the milage (2/3 of it in the city). The life time Kms/100 Liters is sitting at 6.1 right now… AND the car is not anywhere near being broken in yet… (less than 1000 KMS)
Loving the car so far…
+1
Jul 27th, 2009 (9:11 am)Drop the America First prejudice, it has no place in this age. This is 2009 and it is a Global Economy. GM will soon be selling most of it cars overseas and will also have most of its employees overseas. Not to mention that a portion of the Volts made in America will be Sold outside the country. And GM will be building addtional Volts (possibly the majority) in Europe and China as well.
BTW, you sound like a racist. Your last name wouldn’t be Gates would it ?
+8
Jul 27th, 2009 (9:14 am)Errr…. This is an online forum.
It is practically the mission of these places to ALLOW the sharing of your personal opinion.
Lyle’s opinion counts for a lot with most of us here. There is no requirement to AGREE with them, but I always RESPECT them.
Although I am not a huge fan of the prius, I did take a quick look at both the insight and the prius, and Lyle’s review says very much what I felt when looking at both these cars.
The insight felt cheap…
The prius felt like, well… a Toyota. (not my cup of tea but well made)
+5
Jul 27th, 2009 (9:16 am)good morning no name.
+15
Jul 27th, 2009 (9:20 am)The Ford Fusion Hybrid R O C K S
Jul 27th, 2009 (9:22 am)Off Topic.
Tesla Tussles.
http://en.autos.sympatico.msn.ca/news/canadian-press-car-article.aspx?cp-documentid=20889839
+2
Jul 27th, 2009 (9:25 am)Normally I would not bother to acknowledge a person like you, but this time I will.
Nothing in my post indicates any racism. I like the Japanese people, and their culture. I have been to Japan several times. In fact, my daughter lives in Tokyo, and has a Japanese boyfriend whom we love dearly.
Americans are the most generous people in the world – we are always finding ways to help those in distress around the world.
But now many of my fellow countrymen are in distress – out of work and hopeless.
Is it wrong to want to help them by boosting up our own economy first? After all, we can’t continue to afford to help people around the world if our own economy is in shambles.
-5
Jul 27th, 2009 (9:28 am)The Prius is the best hypermiler on the road. Once you hit 40 miles in a Volt its totally downhill against the Prius. So if you are willing to live in a 20 mile bubble around your house than the Volt wins. Otherwise the Prius punks the Volt silly.
Jul 27th, 2009 (9:31 am)Great link Herm. I was wondering how that would be set up.
I find it odd that one would have to drive OVER the cable though. (They have some little plastic hump thing that you can see in the bottom corner of the photo that is covering the cable).
Why not just have the cable come from the front area of the garage so you wouldn’t have to drive over anything with the wheels?
-6
Jul 27th, 2009 (9:32 am)“Ford has surpassed Toyota in most measures of quality, and GM has drawn even”
References please.
+2
Jul 27th, 2009 (9:32 am)Dave,
Some would call the Volt a PHEV. I think the sweeping generalization that PHEV’s will fail might be a bit over the top.
Be well,
Tagamet
LJGTVWOTR
+4
Jul 27th, 2009 (9:38 am)statik says “a EREV will always cost more than a BEV. ”
——————————————————————
Actually this is backwards. Adding sufficient kWh to the battery pack increases the cost way more than adding an engine. The cost of the battery is in fact the raison d’etre for the EREV. The cost of a battery pack is linear, so doubling the size of the pack to 32 kWh from 16 kWh would drive the cost of the pack from $12K to $24K. Adding an engine can’t be more than a few thousand dollars.
For costs, it’s more like ICE<Hybrid<EREV<BEV. Not surprisingly, for numbers sold you’re probably looking at the same thing. The big deal for EREV is that it’s on the correct side of the 80/20 rule, meaning that it will give you 80% of the benefits of a pure EV with only 20% of the cost. (Well maybe the 80/40 rule). Very clever design, and the closer you look at it the more clever it appears.
Looking at the issue more generally, what is even more important is that the cars be reliable. Toyota has managed to do that with the Prius. No one gets in one in the morning wondering if they will be able to make it to work. Hopefully the Volt will be more like the Prius and less like the EV1 in that regard (not that the EV1 was bad but it had its issues). Enthusiasts will put up with things that ordinary drivers will not, and to drive numbers you need the ordinary driver.
+4
Jul 27th, 2009 (9:39 am)Muddy,
Amen about the right to air thoughts here (although anti-Volts should be driven into the ground like tent pegs)(er, just kidding there).
Really, I’m loving the idea that Lyle has some creds with the other mfgs and it can only add to the thoughts here.
Be well,
Tagamet
PS Statik’s posts today add to the rumor that he’s actually Bob Lutz (hee hee).
+3
Jul 27th, 2009 (9:40 am)You are making an unfair comparison of a maxed out fully loaded Prius at $31,000 vs a base model Volt with rebate at $32,750. I know this is a Volt fan site, but how about some amount of objectivity.
The base Prius is $22,000, the base Volt is probably $40,000, almost a 81% more expensive. That’s a pretty significant difference, especially in todays economy.
+3
Jul 27th, 2009 (9:42 am)Absolutely, that looks more like “clone follows function”.
Be well,
Tagamet
LJGTVWOTR
+4
Jul 27th, 2009 (9:44 am)That is just a frivolous lawsuit that will eventually be thrown out of the courts. Eberhard just got his feelings hurt when Mr. Musk kicked him to the curb for massive incompetence (cost overruns, missing deadlines, poor engineering mistakes, etc). Mr. Eberhard would have drove Tesla into the ground. Mr Musk, the true founder, revitalized the program and made it profitable. The next the Eberhard will do is take credit for the Model S, ha ha, he is a pathetic joke.
-8
Jul 27th, 2009 (9:51 am)LYLE:
I gave two people -1′s and one got a +2 and the other a +1. Just thought I’d mention a possible glitch.
Thanks for all you do.
Be well,
Tagamet
LJGTVWOTR
-2
Jul 27th, 2009 (9:52 am)Good Morning all our American friends. We watch Volt progress with much laughter. The Volt will price itself out of the market if it tries to match the advanced features of our next Prius. We have very much more surprises for the Americans. Thank Mr. Lyle for positive Prius review and we look forward to the head-to-head PRIUS vs. Volt review. It will be ugly for Chevy but you can pick up your pride from the asphalt and improve on a good first effort. For now we will enjoy our superior breakfast and hope GM is still up for the challenge from the world’s biggest auto maker.
+2
Jul 27th, 2009 (9:53 am)There is no such things as an unbiased review if opinion is considered as bias. A reviewer can only judge based on what they experience. In this context, Lyle could only be considered to be biased if he disliked Honda and was looking for a way to pan its product regardless of his experience, or if he especially liked Toyota and wanted to give its product a boost regardless of his experience.
With respect to the Prius and the Insight, many reviewers, perhaps even most, have arrived at the same conclusion as did Lyle. Honda just didn’t get the Insight right. it took too much content out of the car and saved too few dollars. FWIW this happens all the time. Getting the cost/performance mix just right is tricky. In a completely different context, witness the Cadillac SRX or the Saturn Sky, both great cars with weak powertrains.
-1
Jul 27th, 2009 (9:55 am)Hey Richard… If you don’t mind my asking what did they stick you for on price. I priced one recently and it was in the low 30′s. OUCH
+1
Jul 27th, 2009 (9:55 am)But he stayed with the informal theme …
+4
Jul 27th, 2009 (9:58 am)I doubt they’re too worried. They have other things to worry about right now. Like the recovery of the US and Japanese markets. And their poor performance in China. (For some reason all the manufacturers continue to believe that China will allow foreign manufacturers permanent access to the Chinese market.) Toyota’s still bleeding cash. I believe that Honda’s still making a profit, but it’s much much less than in 2007. They’re not worried right now about 2013–which is the earliest point at which GM will build enough to make a difference.
That said, I’m sure they’re taking note of GM’s progress. And if the Volt is a sucess, they’ll put out a plug-in Prius, which given the number of Toyota fans, will probably do pretty well.
Jul 27th, 2009 (10:00 am)And geeeezzzzzzzz Barry you sound like a communist (but I’m sure your not). Apparently you missed his point, American workers making America’s economy better by “working” in America!! Just in case you needed a little clarification, but I’m sure you didn’t
+8
Jul 27th, 2009 (10:00 am)I, too, am looking forward to the 2010 Fusion report. Most likely I’ll be getting a Fusion as who knows when the Volt will be available. Still, I think the Voltec system will be a game changer by it’s second generation.
Jul 27th, 2009 (10:03 am)When Honda first announced plans to create a Prius competitor, I had hoped it would be a real competitor. Instead we got a very good little hybrid, for a gen 1 vehicle, but one that could not compete head-to-head with the Prius. It is not that I wanted Honda to knock the Prius off the top of the pile as much as I wanted Honda to be competitive. I, too, wanted to put down a deposit on the Insight. Once I saw the specs for the Insight and knew it was going to be even smaller than the at then current Prius, I decided to forgo the chance to purchase an Insight. Hopefully Honda can get their hybrid better engineered to really become a competitor. It is good to have a choice and not have to depend on Toyota for a real high mileage hybrid. Although I do think the Prius is a great vehicle, I just prefer some competition. It is all good.
+3
Jul 27th, 2009 (10:05 am)Most reasonable people would consider your argument hollow ….. by the way, if you are going to hypermile, please stay off the interstate highways – especially the entrance ramps !
+2
Jul 27th, 2009 (10:05 am)If by upgrade you mean small changes then yes, that will happen. But those won’t radically change anything.
As for quality, Toyota is still probably at the top. But realistically not by very much and certainly not for every model. As noted, most reviewers, including Consumer Reports, will say that the Fusion is more reliable than a Camry. Generally speaking most manufacturers are fairly even. The Volt will probably have a few more problems than the Prius. As a first generation vehicle that is to be expected. But it will also offer a lot more …
But you are right that quality is important. The Volt is a big opportunity for GM to capture a demographic that has proven elusive. Hopefully it won’t blow it by offering a car with poor quality. In this regard, if the trade off is between a higher price or lower quality, they need to worry about quality first and price second.
+3
Jul 27th, 2009 (10:07 am)Troll alert ! I hope the raw fish and cold noodles were tasty – you are welcome to my portion as well.
+4
Jul 27th, 2009 (10:07 am)Yes, I agree with you about the Ford Fusion. That is the one I want to see Lyle really go over good. I like the idea of the Ford Fusion and It will be interesting to see it compared to Lyle’s experience with the Prius and the Insight. I don’t think the Prius will be knocked off its mileage championship by the Fusion anymore than it was by the Insight. But it will be interesting to read Lyle’s report.
Jul 27th, 2009 (10:11 am)Between the two, ceteris paribus, my pick is the Prius.
+2
Jul 27th, 2009 (10:12 am)Didn’t Nissan say they would price their BEV around the price of a standard car? If so, that would be much lower than an EREV or Hybrid. Or did I misunderstand Nissan?
Jul 27th, 2009 (10:12 am)I love how we are all clamoring to make the Volt’s price comparable to other models.
So a base Volt is only going to cost a little more than a fully loaded Prius – so what? Why is the base Volt model not compared to the base Prius for pricing? Its much more accurate to compare the base Prius is @ $22,000 with the base Volt being @ $32,500.
That also includes two assumptions:
1 – that the $7500 credit remains available to everyone and
2 – there is no dealer markup for a high demand vehicle
And really, in this day and age of squeezing every last $ out of the consumer, what are the odds of #2 not happening?
If the base Prius remains @ $22,000 and the base Volt turns out to be closer to say $36,000 – is it worth the $14,000 extra?
Jul 27th, 2009 (10:14 am)Sounds great, Ray. Good luck with the Fusion and keep us in the loop.
+1
Jul 27th, 2009 (10:19 am)I guess we will see, I for one think that was ‘marketing’ and not necessarily based on reality.
+3
Jul 27th, 2009 (10:20 am)Lyle said that the Insight is cheaper. Sometimes it’s worth spending extra. Sometimes it’s not. In this case, most people think it is. But if you’re on a strict budget, buy the Insight.
Actually, buy a Ford Focus, Chevy Cobalt or a Hyundai Elantra. They’re all a lot cheaper than the Insight. Or, better yet, buy a used car. That will be even cheaper. And you will probably never make up the difference in gasoline.
+1
Jul 27th, 2009 (10:20 am)Somehow I don’t think either of them are too worried about the Volt based on GM’s past track record and the public’s love affair with Japanese vehicles. They know that no matter how good the Volt is stacked up against the Prius or Insight, the media and the public will thrash the daylights out of GM no matter what. Public sentiment is against American made vehicles and they don’t expect that to change. But, I say that GM has a chance to turn the tables on the imports if the public and the media will give them half a chance. GM has got to build quality and dependability into every vehicle or else they will lose from the git go. They are already running a long fifth place in most people’s minds and have been written off by a lot of others. It is GM’s do or die moment that will tell whether they succeed or fail over the next 3 or 4 years. That’s all the time GM has to turn things around. Maybe they can do it or maybe they can’t. Who knows.
+1
Jul 27th, 2009 (10:22 am)Also, the $7500 rebate does NOTHING for your payments. At signing and what you finance is NOT affected by the $7500 rebate. So when one makes the comparison the rebate does not count WHEN YOU SIGN. Your loan will not reflect a -$7500 not will the price selling reflect a -$7500.
+1
Jul 27th, 2009 (10:22 am)The price of the VOLT will be a HUGE factor in sales, regardless of the price of gas at the time. A difference of about $4000 in amount financed is a change of $100 in payment.
If the average VOLT ends up $4000 more than the average Prius, it could be difficult close the budget payment buyer with “but it’s only $100 more per month than a Prius”. Not impossible. Just difficult.
The final price of the VOLT will surely boost other brands of hybrid economy cars.
On the other hand, if the fit, finish, and performance is there, selling a VOLT against a small Lexus, Audi, or Mercedes could be an easy deal…
Jul 27th, 2009 (10:24 am)I think you certainly pointed out some of the problems facing GM. Whether they can overcome those problems is the real question. I do hope so.
+3
Jul 27th, 2009 (10:24 am)I agree. I want to read the Fusion review also. Personally, the Fusion seems to hit the sweet spot in size and efficiency, and the same can be said of the Camry hybrid. I think the main thing holding people back on the Fusion and Camry hybrids is the higher price and lack of “Hybrid recognition”. That’s just my own un-scientific opinion though.
Jul 27th, 2009 (10:24 am)I’m really liking that Toyota Prius about now. Don’t know if the Volt can really hang with it. Just too many advantages of Parallel Hybrid over the older Series Hybrid model.
+2
Jul 27th, 2009 (10:28 am)You do realize that the US trade deficit in 2007 was $700 billion and growing? It’s down now because of the economy, but a) it’s still on track for over $300 billion (which is enormous in real terms), and b)there’s no reason to think it won’t go right back up if the economy recovers.
You don’t have to be a racist, or even an American to see that as a problem. It’s a massive imbalance that’s going to have to be corrected at some point. And, when it corrects, it’s going to be painful. For everyone. Not just the US.
Jul 27th, 2009 (10:30 am)Good luck on that waiting list.
I hear it is 9 months long.
Jul 27th, 2009 (10:30 am)This thread is pretty ‘hodge-podgy’ so why not shoot out some into on Nissan’s unveiling out theretoday:
—-
NISSAN READIES ITS ELECTRIC VEHICLE PLATFORM
- All-electric car goes to market in U.S. and Japan in 2010 -
Nissan Motor Co., Ltd. today previewed its electric vehicle (EV) platform on a Tiida-based prototype to demonstrate the superior driving pleasure of a pure zero-emission vehicle.
The in-house developed electric motor delivers 80kW/280Nm for high response and powerful acceleration. Nissan’s unique motor control also contributes to the vehicle’s seamless acceleration.
The 24kWh laminated compact lithium-ion battery pack is placed under the vehicle floor for more efficient packaging, without compromising cabin or cargo space. The battery layout also allows smooth underfloor air-flow which helps reduce drag. Additionally, the regenerative brake system employed to recharge the battery during deceleration and braking extends the driving range to more than 160km*1 under a full charge.
(it has some fancy interface goodies too)
Autoblog has the story…and a video, worth a looksie.
http://www.autobloggreen.com/2009/07/27/nissan-shows-off-new-versa-based-electric-vehicle-prototype/
Jul 27th, 2009 (10:30 am)I agree, Tag. Dave seems to be a little more pessimistic than usual of late. Sure, adding a plug and a larger battery is costly. I saw a report on the news yesterday where a university group had added a Hymotion battery pack to a Prius and achieved 170 MPG. The report said the car’s computer could not calculate the actual mileage because it wasn’t designed to calculate mileage that high, but that was the mileage they calculated based on their test.
So, I ask you. What kind of mileage on the Prius would justify the additional cost of such items as a plug and battery pack like that? I would certainly settle for those mileage numbers. I don’t remember the cost figures quoted, but it was over $10,000, I believe.
+4
Jul 27th, 2009 (10:33 am)Although you sure sound like no name I’ll answer anyway.
The Volt starts it’s “hypermiling” by not using any gas at all for the first 40 miles while the prius heats up it’s catylitic converter to full temp long before that.
+4
Jul 27th, 2009 (10:35 am)The Volt will not meet my needs. Sorry, 40 miles just won’t cut it. I need at least 70 mile electric range, maybe the Nissan or BMW Mini will float my boat. Chevy might want to think about offering the Volt with different battery ranges (i.e. sizes or densities) to meet the needs of all potential customers. Don’t believe the basis for their 40 mile limit.
+4
Jul 27th, 2009 (10:36 am)LOL!
Since ABSOLUTELY NO ONE knows the actual price the Volt will carry when it hits showrooms statements like these are fairly pointless.
Particularly when there is no information on how a ‘base Volt’ will be equipped.
+1
Jul 27th, 2009 (10:37 am)I think it’s no name with their multiple personalities voting themselves up.
You get the page refresh when you vote.
Jul 27th, 2009 (10:38 am)lol….
statik, you peepin Tom you…
yuk, bad picture.
Jul 27th, 2009 (10:38 am)“So, I ask you. What kind of mileage on the Prius would justify the additional cost of such items as a plug and battery pack like that? I would certainly settle for those mileage numbers. I don’t remember the cost figures quoted, but it was over $10,000, I believe.”
Personally the MPG increase would need to be zero as long as the majority of my needs would be met in AER. I think the sweet spot is reflected in the Volt, but many would want/need less. Sooner or later we’ll have an ala carte menu where you could choose the AER mileage (and size of vehicle) based on your needs. At THIS point, all AER’s are golden.
JMO,
Tagamet
LJGTVWOTR
Jul 27th, 2009 (10:39 am)A fair question.
I’m looking forward to the answer in 15 months!
-1
Jul 27th, 2009 (10:40 am)Actually the Volt (when it FINALLY goes on sale via eBay or whatever) will be much closer to the price of a new Tesla than that of a Prius. Also I believe the Volt does much more harm to the environment than the Prius. And don’t even get me started on the Volt’s massive carbon footprint…ouch.
+2
Jul 27th, 2009 (10:41 am)>> superior breakfast
He’s right! Sushi waffles rule!
Or not.
Jul 27th, 2009 (10:44 am)If you don’t know that giving a review of one or more vehicles is nothing more than reporting on your experience then there is nothing more to be said to you. Your experience is nothing more than your opinion. Every reviewer gives his or her opinion. How else can you report on your experience. We humans are not computers that can just spit out numbers to represent comparisons. We judge by “feeling” and we state our feelings as opinions. If you have a better way, let us all in on it. You seem to feel that the Honda Insight did not deserve to come out on the short end of this review. I think it deserved what Lyle gave it. His opinion based on his experience with the two cars. Nothing more, nothing less. Hopefully Honda will address the Insight’s shortcomings soon. I, personally, love Honda vehicles much more that Toyota vehicles. But, in my opinion, the Prius is a much better vehicle for the money spent. Even with the higher price tag.
+3
Jul 27th, 2009 (10:48 am)Absolutely!
Sadly we all look for the ‘big number’ rather than the ‘important’ number.
I think the 2 mode Silverado is actually the really significant ‘current’ hybrid because it makes a MUCH bigger difference in actual fuel usage.
I hope GM figures out how to drop the price difference between it and the ‘normal’ light duty Silverado. If they CAN then it would be possible to drop the conventional model and ALL Silverado’s would be 2 mode.
That would be a big saving in fuel!
+4
Jul 27th, 2009 (10:53 am)No name just crossed the “needs medication” line then.
Thanks,
Be well,
Tagamet
LJGTVWOTR
Jul 27th, 2009 (10:55 am)That’s really the trick isn’t it!
At current showroom price estimates the Volt will be going up against the very good MB C Class. (This is the car I had been ‘coveting’ until I heard about the Volt.)
The quality and well built ‘feel’ absolutely need to be there.
This is why it’s so important to give the team the time to get it truly right.
+3
Jul 27th, 2009 (10:56 am)Really tough to get crispy sushi waffles….
Be well,
Tagamet
LJGTVWOTR
Jul 27th, 2009 (10:56 am)What I mean is that a BEV will always cost less than a EREV with the same or similar sized packs.
Of course a BEV is going to cost more if you double or triple the kWh on the pack over a EREV (sidenote: when did adding 16kWh of battery cells to a pack cost 12K?). By the same token a EREV with a 300HP engine is going to cost more than a BEV with 40kW pack. You just can’t just plunk in any random additional variance to make your point.
We were talking strickly about sales, as in which platform will sell more in the future….not which has better functionality, range or performance, those are all factors, but for most people, they will have a price range they start at, and EREVs may prove to be out of most people grasp, limiting sales.
I have no problem with stating the EREV has greater functionality over a BEV, I don’t dispute that at all…that doesn’t mean it will sell better. But it might…I dunno.
Going forward, the gap will only widen, the price of a ICE and the ‘extended range’ part of the EREV is very stable, fixed…however the price of the lithium battery packs are only dropping. Basically, the closest price comparison between a EREV and a BEV is right now…the gap can only widen going forward.
The issue with BEVs right now is range.
The issue for EREVs is starting platform costs.
Taking all electric components out of the Volt, the cost is probably around $22,000 (basic standard fair for ICE sedan), then you add the cost of electric propulsion and additional 2-mode components. Stripping out the electric component out of a pure BEV, you have a shell that costs probably around 8-10K, then you add in the cost of electric.
The difference in the base starting cost is the issue. That is what you have to make up for in value in the customers mind, with things like range anxiety, performance, etc. As lithium becomes cheaper it will only become harder to make that jump.
The Volt will never make more sense over a BEV than on the very first day, every subsequent day as lithium technology and pricing gets better, the BEV gets better.
-2
Jul 27th, 2009 (10:57 am)Good! All the more Volts for us real people!
Jul 27th, 2009 (10:59 am)I really like this idea! My only concern is how close the receiver on the car is to the ground. Probably safe on most well paved streets but a little close for some country roads. jmho.
+5
Jul 27th, 2009 (10:59 am)That’s a pretty sharp looking car. If they can come in under $30k, it might be my next car. And its a real BEV!
Jul 27th, 2009 (11:01 am)You ARE busy this morning no name!
(is it too wet under the bridge?)
Jul 27th, 2009 (11:02 am)It is very possible that the price of the Nissan EV could be competitive with an ordinary car. I would imagine it will start somewhere around the $25k range.
It’s basically going to be a $15,000 car (similar price to a 2010 Sentra) without the cost of the transmission and engine ($5,000) brings it down to $10,000, and throw in a $15,000 battery puts you back up to $25,000. There might be nominal other extra costs for battery management computers and the electric motor…
My guess is the Gen 1 Nissan BEV will start at $30,000, but then you’ve got a $7,500 federal tax incentive which will bring it down to a normal vehicle’s price range of $22,500-$25,000.
I don’t think they’ll be able to charge any more than $30,000 when they’ve got to compete with the Volt that has the “small” benefit of no range anxiety. After hearing Lyle’s range anxiety story in his Mini, and that’s just one guy who’s had an EV for 1 month, multiply the factors by millions of EVs that they are hoping to sell, and over 2-3 years…I guarantee there will be EV horror stories taking the country like wildfire. Right now only EV enthusiasts are driving EVs, so these stranded in your EV with no plug stories are laughed off, but when grandma or your Aunt Ida think an EV sounds “cute” and they buy one in a Nissan showroom and forget that they can only go the equivalent of 3 gallons on a full 8-10 hour charge, we’ll see how the Nissan BEV competes with the Volt.
I asked a lady at Toyota what was the most common problem with Priuses people were having. She told me their reliability is practically bulletproof, but a lot of people forget to put gas in them and call their roadside assistance for that, I asked why, she said she didn’t know but guessed it was because they think they are some perpetual motion machine or something.
+2
Jul 27th, 2009 (11:11 am)evidence oh under bridge dweller…
Jul 27th, 2009 (11:11 am)Lyle,
Wardrobe is always important. You want to look like a very polished reviewer. I have to give you some minus points for lack of wardrobe thought. Just my opinion, mind you. And you know how opinions are. Everyone’s got one or more. Mostly more. But, still. I enjoyed the video. Good work.
Jul 27th, 2009 (11:13 am)That’s a Nissan Versa.
+1
Jul 27th, 2009 (11:13 am)How do you know Lyle was hypermiling? I did not get that impression from his video or report.
Jul 27th, 2009 (11:14 am)60.3 MPG is the average displayed for my current tank at 282 miles of mixed driving.
+2
Jul 27th, 2009 (11:14 am)I got it at $400 below MSRP which was right around $28,800 with delivery (I’ve got the invoice here somewhere if you want the exact figure). I ordered when the $3400 tax credit was in place so the net cost turns out to be $25,400. Hope this helps, let me know if any more questions I can help with. I am working on a YouTube review showing how you can drive it to get the high MPG figures.
Jul 27th, 2009 (11:16 am)Great for you. Give use the link and keep us informed.
Jul 27th, 2009 (11:17 am)Your right Bob, I hate the fact we always compare the Volt’s ‘maybe MSRP’ to the ‘done out to the 9s’ Prius.
Sure it ‘can’ be that expensive, sure the Volt will have a lot of twirrly things, but the fact remains that if you want a Prius for $22,000 you can get one. That puts it in most people’s price range, and they can CHOOSE to add options if they want.
If they force you to take a 8 way power seat in your Volt, that doesn’t mean it automatically gets compared to a similarly optioned Prius. I’m not thrilled about adding in limited time gov’t rebates into product comparisons either.
Truth be told, I hate, hate Prius vs Volt debates…to me it is pointless to compare the two, they are totally different cars/platforms, in totally different price brackets. I’d rather consider them ‘friends’ in the new world than ‘foes’
-3
Jul 27th, 2009 (11:17 am)92.5 MPG – Go Prius !
Volt can’t touch that.
Jul 27th, 2009 (11:21 am)I agree you can not (or should not, because everyone will) compare the Prius to the Volt. But I don’t see Toyota updating the Prius all that much over the next year and half. I think your thinking went off track a little bit there with that statement.
And as far as quality is concerned, of the 3 or 4 Prius test drives I have taken, I have always been impressed with the lack of quality materials in use. Toyota uses some pretty cheap looking plastics and cloths in the Prius. Not that they don’t look OK, just cheap looking. I agree that Toyota builds good dependable vehicles, but I have never been all that impressed with their interior materials on most of their vehicles I have driven. Of course, just my opinion.
+4
Jul 27th, 2009 (11:22 am)I do see your point and for people with a really big garage (and budget) I even agree but I think most people in the real world buy one car for ALL their needs.
EREV works here where a BEV simply cannot.
An example; Saturday morning we decide to go to Banff for lunch and a soak in the hot pools.
It’s a nice place! YOU should visit!
(There, I’ve done my bit to boost the economy!)
This is ‘roughly’ 140 km one way from my house. A Volt would have no issue whatsoever with this. Any semi reasonable priced BEV would not be able to make this trip.
Jul 27th, 2009 (11:24 am)Very nice. Please post a link to your Youtube video when you have it up. Thanks!
+1
Jul 27th, 2009 (11:26 am)I don’t think anyone believe’s that a million gen 1 Volts are going to be built.
The later cost reduced (and yes bug fixed) generations of Volt will be the big number cars.
It was the same with prius.
+1
Jul 27th, 2009 (11:26 am)Nor did he bother to keep the bias hidden. I think if I were him, I would certainly take your advice and get myself a bike. Apparently people like him can only think with the part of the body that has no brain. Their head. They are just brainless repeaters of what they hear. No real experience to base their rantings on. Just repeating dogma.
Jul 27th, 2009 (11:28 am)Just curious.. has Andrew Farah (or anyone at GM) given any clues to the different trim levels of the Volt? What’s the most expensive Volt I can buy, meaning, what options will I have? Leather seats? A premium sound system? From what I’ve read, a lot of this is already built into the Volt. So unless they offer a solar-cell roof for $4000, or spinner-rims, I dont see what the options would be.
+1
Jul 27th, 2009 (11:31 am)State your source of 32% figure. Even estimates are based on figures. Or are you jut throwing out a number? I agree a lot of the “parts” will come from foreign sources. But 68%? Maybe a little of a stretch.
Jul 27th, 2009 (11:31 am)One other factor is that we don’t know what options will be available on the Volt (except maybe solar roof for ventilation). So it could be that there will be only one package available at launch and therefore a fairer comparison with a fully loaded Prius.
The first Volts will undoubtedly sell at a premium for someone. Someone will buy and resell immediately for profit. As it should be if demand is high enough.
-1
Jul 27th, 2009 (11:33 am)If that’s true then the target audience that travels only 40 miles will be taken away to this car. The volt will then be renedered a niche product.
+2
Jul 27th, 2009 (11:33 am)Looking forward to statik in the pink tie…
+1
Jul 27th, 2009 (11:36 am)Good luck, but don’t get too carried away. While the Prius will give you impressive mileage, don’t expect those kind of numbers each and every day. Try several other offerings before you make up your mind. Try out the Honda Insight and the Ford Fusion. Then decide which of the three you think gives you what you want. Even the Honda Fit and Honda Civic Hybrid will provide outstanding mileage as will several vehicles made by GM and Ford. There are plenty of vehicles to chose from. Shop around and experience more than just the Prius. Although it is a good vehicle even if pricey for what you get.
Jul 27th, 2009 (11:36 am)I would like to see some scantily clad women next to the cars.
You should have found an empty road, and lined up the Prius, the Civic, and the Mini E. Thrown a flag in the air and see who wins.
Jul 27th, 2009 (11:37 am)I smell sheep.
Jul 27th, 2009 (11:40 am)Agreed.
But as you well know there is a long standing ‘tradition’ in the automotive world of “loving” your brand and “hating” the others.
It’s not really sane, but it is what it is.
For the record I grew up in a Chevy family.
+4
Jul 27th, 2009 (11:40 am)Think BEV. Think NISSAN.
The real electrics are coming…
+1
Jul 27th, 2009 (11:40 am)Or get a scooter. Payback in 2 years.
Or buy a sticker that says “Hybrid” and stick it on your clunker.
Price/value.. very subjective things.
Jul 27th, 2009 (11:41 am)Say! What happens when the house cat walks over that plate? Or decides to curl up on it? Fried cat?
Jul 27th, 2009 (11:42 am)Which is actually a Renault Clio.
Jul 27th, 2009 (11:42 am)I am sure you could route it from the front if that is where your plug is located. Shouldn’t be any different than plugging in anything else.
It was interesting to see Nissan placing the plug under the front badge plate. Looks like it would be easily broken off by someone walking past. Neighborhood kids or just “hoods”.
+1
Jul 27th, 2009 (11:43 am)Let me get this understood in my old brain. At 40 miles AER and 30 miles at [hopefully 50 mpg] in ER mode using .6 gallons of gas will make the Volt unable to compete for your needs. I would think 116 mpg would be quite good.
Jul 27th, 2009 (11:47 am)Rude comment.
+2
Jul 27th, 2009 (11:50 am)For me, it could be free, but I still wouldnt buy it, as I want a series hybrid (just for personal reasons). All arguments aside of the best design, lowest cost, saving the environment, dispacing oil, etc.. I really want a series hybrid, so that’s my personal #1 decision making process. Once battery tech gets there, I want a BEV.
+1
Jul 27th, 2009 (11:50 am)That is just the result of you seeing how the vote stands after you voted. Those other votes had been received while you were reading the post and not refreshed your screen. Your voted refreshed that portion of your screen.
Jul 27th, 2009 (11:55 am)This sort of device works through induction so there shouldn’t be much danger of direct electricution.
Now if your cat has piercings…. /eeew.. sorry about that
+1
Jul 27th, 2009 (11:55 am)very good argument for EREV. In fact comparing BEV and EREV is silly. Unless you buy the BEV as a second car you will always worry about getting stuck somewhere or forced to limit your trips. Volt lets you have your cake and eat it too. At least at some higher than desirable price!
We should always look upon the Volt as defaulting to a BEV with an emergency tow-truck attached. (
+3
Jul 27th, 2009 (11:57 am)That’s just your date.
Jul 27th, 2009 (12:02 pm)I’d say it is clearly more like 33.7%
+2
Jul 27th, 2009 (12:03 pm)Yeah, my rely – upon a second reading- was very unclear. I meant to say pretty much what you said in reply. A series vehicle is the only totally gas-free alternative that will cover most people’s driving needs (I’m braced for a lot of other opinions about that).
In any case, it’s no shocker that I’m a Volt Fanboy (and very proud of it).
Come on GM, get that fleet of test vehicles on the road so that they can all be “free” ads for the gas-free future.
Be well,
Tagamet
LJGTVWOTR
+4
Jul 27th, 2009 (12:04 pm)Volt = v6 power all of the time
Volt = quiet electric drive all of the time
Volt = first 40 miles ~ no gasoline
Volt = comfort ~ 4 bucket seats (leather)
Volt = recharge at the workplace ~ no gasoline
Prius compares to the Insight and to the Fusion. None of the three compare to the Volt. It’s apples to oranges. Let’s watch and see how Lyle’s Ford Fusion test drive goes.
=D~
Jul 27th, 2009 (12:05 pm)THAT might be a ‘different’ website….
Jul 27th, 2009 (12:07 pm)Our rather vocal friend John1701a claims 60.3 mpg in his 2010 prius.
So hmmm DOES have a point.
-2
Jul 27th, 2009 (12:07 pm)Be advised that Nissan’s new generation of Electric Vehicle’s are super-quiet zero-emission cars.
The Volt on the other hand is not quiet and not even close to zero-emission.
Nissan EV will be Made In America.
The Volt will be Made Around The World.
Choose wisely, our country depends on it.
+1
Jul 27th, 2009 (12:09 pm)Amen!
Jul 27th, 2009 (12:12 pm)Right on!
Just imagine the number if you only drove 50 miles…
-1
Jul 27th, 2009 (12:21 pm)Dongfeng Motor in China will soon begin production of electric vehicles. GM get ready for a severe smackdown. Don’t look now because we are coming on strong you not only player.
-3
Jul 27th, 2009 (12:26 pm)Wrong comparison. Here is the REAL comparison:
Volt = Hybrid
Fusion = Hybrid
Insight = Hybrid
Prius = Hybrid
Volt = Fusion = Insight = Prius
Nissan = Electric
Nissan > Volt
Nissan + 1
+2
Jul 27th, 2009 (12:33 pm)Oh good…I’ve been looking for a place to state my philosophy about Asian food.
Its really simple for me wherein, I cannot garner any respect for an entire food culture that doesn’t even CONSIDER the use of cheese.
“superior breakfast”…puh-lease!
I realize that this is an opinion and its is mine.
-3
Jul 27th, 2009 (12:33 pm)don’t get me wrong I’m not a hater but come on Lyle how can you be so sure, with what’s happened to GM and continues to happen I can’t believe a word they are saying, Lutz reties then unretires, they kill the Malibu hybred, two huge miles stones need to take place
1. First the Volts have hit the dealer showrooms
2. Second the Prius needs to be frozen in time, for the Volt to kick it’s butt, not very likely as it will be on it’s next generation, plug in perhaps
“At the end of the day however, neither of these cars can be compared to the Volt. Though I have yet to drive the production model it will clearly be faster, more powerful, quieter, cooler and more high tech. Most importantly it will drive 40 miles without the use of any gas at all.”
+2
Jul 27th, 2009 (12:39 pm)AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!
Good one DirtyDawgRob!!!!!!
AHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!
Jul 27th, 2009 (12:39 pm)“The Insight could only achieve 62.5 MPG on that same course.”
ONLY
-2
Jul 27th, 2009 (12:39 pm)I detect a racist tone in your message. Is that because I am Black ?
Do you know who your dealing with here Whitey !
+3
Jul 27th, 2009 (12:40 pm)If you live close to your work and only want a commuter car, then any BEV that has the range needed for a round trip commute with some percentage of miles per charge over that would do. But most of us can’t afford to purchase a car only for commuting. We have to have one for multiple purposes. BEVs will do a lot for a lot of people but they are not the end to the story. The story’s end has not been written yet.
+3
Jul 27th, 2009 (12:45 pm)Not quite.
The Volt is an electric car with a backup plan.
If you can live with a 40 mile range then day to day the Volt would run just like a BEV without the genset starting.
BUT, on the weekend you don’t have to hassle with renting a car, just jump into the Volt and go to the lake.
Jul 27th, 2009 (12:46 pm)We don’t yet know if the Ford Fusion Hybrid will suffer the same fate as the Toyota Camry Hybrid. I am of the opinion that to be successful a hybrid needs to be a little more distinctive than the car it is based on, assuming it is based on another. The Prius and the Insight are distinctive in their own right and both will be “successful”. The Prius has already made that “grade” and the Insight will make it also. The Volt is not based on another vehicle, but it is another story all by itself. The same does not hold true about it having to be distinctive from its sibling. It should be successful assuming price, quality and dependability make the grade.
Jul 27th, 2009 (12:47 pm)That was a fun link statik.
I think if I lived in Tokyo, I would actually get one of those.
Jul 27th, 2009 (12:47 pm)Car loans are simple interest loans. When you eventually get the $7500, send it in with the next loan payment. You may eat a few extra dollars in short-term interest but that should be the extent of the financial damage.
+3
Jul 27th, 2009 (12:47 pm)Just don’t touch them with your bare hand, you are likely to be poisoned.
-3
Jul 27th, 2009 (12:52 pm)America needs to invest more heavily in China. If we increase Chinese production capabilities by building numerous Volt production plants, more iPhone plants, etc. and thus lower the cost of these products than more Americans can afford them and everyone will be Happy. More Chinese workers (especially rural chinese) are paid well and Americans get very cheap high-quality products. This is the solution to the global economic crisis. Also if enough Chinese become millionaires than some will visit USA and spend money in your country. This is a win-win for both great Nations. But first Prez Obama need to send a huge load on the first boat to China.
+1
Jul 27th, 2009 (12:52 pm)Let’s see. When was the Prius introduced? 1997? After 13 years (1997 – 2010) Toyota has sold a million of them. Not bad. That comes out to 83,333 per year for the first 12 years. Most of these 1 million probably were sold in the last five years. (I am assuming that.)
Can the Volt sell 85,000 per year after the first year of production? Absolutely. If price, quality and dependability are built in just right.
Jul 27th, 2009 (12:54 pm)Cool video!
+6
Jul 27th, 2009 (12:54 pm)http://www.dslreports.com/shownews/Ford-Passes-Toyota-in-JD-Power-Initial-Quality-84727
http://www.roadandtrack.com/article.asp?section_id=14&article_id=5402
http://www.detnews.com/article/20090721/AUTO01/907210377/?FORM=ZZNR8
Since 2007, the last is less than a month old..
+1
Jul 27th, 2009 (12:57 pm)Yep, and for anyone who’s interested, the formula for figuring out your mileage with the Volt, it is:
MPG = 50xM/(M-40)
M is the number of miles you drive after charging up.
So, for example, if you routinely drive 60 miles per day, you get:
50×60=3000 divided by 60-40=20. So 3000/20 = 150
The Volt would get 150 MPG under these circumstances.
Jul 27th, 2009 (1:00 pm)I agree about being a Volt fanboy. I am one myself. Correct me if I am wrong on this, buy didn’t Toyota make a statement about the Prius would cost over $40,000 with a plug-in and large enough battery to enable about 20 miles per charge in EV mode? Seems I remember reading that. So, that makes the Volt very competitive against a plug-in Prius assuming all other factors are even. (Quality and dependability. In looks, the Volt rules 100%.)
+2
Jul 27th, 2009 (1:01 pm)Yep again Muddy.
It’s easy to figure out.
MPG=50xM/(M-40).
So 50×50=2500. 50-40=10.
So 2500 divided by 10 = 250.
You would get 250MPG if you drove 50 miles after charging.
Jul 27th, 2009 (1:03 pm)cry baby..
Jul 27th, 2009 (1:03 pm)OOPS, I should have replied to my own post in order to keep the sequence correct.
+3
Jul 27th, 2009 (1:05 pm)For the Malibu to come back as a hybrid needs to turn “Fusion” like numbers or it doesn’t make sense. Customers can add, they did so and stayed away in droves. (This ball needs to be picked up at some point with a truly efficent midsize car.)
The Volt represents the shift to full electric drive without the compromises that make BEV’s impractical for most people.
The prius like it or not has one foot in the old world and one in the new, the Volt is the first real chance to have a real electric car that anyone can live with.
I for one find Lyle’s enthusiasim inspiring.
-1
Jul 27th, 2009 (1:05 pm)The average US family has over 2.28 cars per household. Which makes a BEV the perfect second car, no renting required.
Jul 27th, 2009 (1:09 pm)“I would like to see some scantily clad women next to the cars.”
————————-
Now that you got me thinking about it…. Nah, I better keep my opinion to myself.
Jul 27th, 2009 (1:11 pm)“When you eventually get the $7500….”
That’s “IF” you are scheduled to get any $$$ back.
-2
Jul 27th, 2009 (1:11 pm)The Volt will never make more sense over a BEV than on the very first day, every subsequent day as lithium technology and pricing gets better, the BEV gets better.
—————————————————————————–
It will be interesting to see how much range anxiety is worth? With vehicle pricing aside, the slow refueling of a BEV is a major drawback. What is it worth?
For most people at $40+K, it is not even an option to consider even if gas was $10 gallon. The recent events shows that people just drive less with unbearable increases in fuel prices. At $10 gallon would GM sell more Volts…I think the economy would nose dive at those prices. Not much of anything would be selling…a vegetable garden would be more than hobby.
Jul 27th, 2009 (1:13 pm)I know that a retrofit of a Prius to a 10 AER plugin is 10K, so you’re not far off IF one was available. Right now the plugin conversions, to my knowledge are limited to the 10K conversion. With economies of scale I’m pretty sure Toyota could beat the retrofit handily (lower than 10K or higher than 10 AER), but the test fleet (I think) only has an 8 mile AER.
In short (lol, this is long) GM has the opportunity to really turn things with Toyota on it’s head. As we all have said, they “just” have to get EVERYTHING right with the Volt.
Be well,
Tagamet
LJGTVWOTR
Jul 27th, 2009 (1:14 pm)150 MPG is typical for a PHEV, maybe 170 if you hypermile it a bit – but for how many miles?
In any case, MPG doesn’t really make sense for plug-ins. Remember, the Volt gets infinite MPG for 40 miles. I believe other EREVs will be similar.
With a typical driving pattern, assuming you only charge overnight:
Vehicle ……………… Gallons per year
Volt (EREV-40) …….. 37
Prius PHEV-10 …….. 182
Prius HEV …………… 228
30 MPG car ………… 380
20 MPG car ………… 570
This is why I believe EREVs will easily beat PHEVs. The advantage of a strong hybrid like the Prius is obvious, but the advantage of a plug-in hybrid is not really that much, especially compared to an EREV.
+1
Jul 27th, 2009 (1:14 pm)Refer to #26
+1
Jul 27th, 2009 (1:15 pm)Is it, really? You are pulling my leg. Stop that!!!
Jul 27th, 2009 (1:15 pm)It occurs to me the 40 miles on electric advantage can be blown away by an efficient hybrid.
So for a 200 mile road trip:
Prius @80mpg = 2.5 gallons
Volt = 4.5 gallons
(assuming free electricty for first 40 miles and 40mpg on generator)
Of course this all depends on the MPG in generator mode of the Volt. But if that is a low figure, all the 40 electric range is getting you is about 1 gallon of gas “free”.
Let’s hope the genset mileage is at least 50mpg
-3
Jul 27th, 2009 (1:15 pm)Why wait ? Your new Prius is ready for pickup NOW ! Do yourself a great big favor and get yours today. Come on you know that you truly deserve a Prius today. Just imagine yourself cruising down your favorite highway at a whooping 92.5 MPG.
+3
Jul 27th, 2009 (1:17 pm)I have to agree that we would be much better off if we were buying more American made goods. But that is not happening and doesn’t look realistic anytime soon. And, no, I don’t think you are being racist to support buying American. If so, just call me racist and I will smile about it every time.
Jul 27th, 2009 (1:19 pm)Dan,
In principal, I agree, but how much $ does a neurosurgen get an hour for driving the 10+ hours it’d take to run through a tank of gas?
Be well,
Tagamet
LJGTVWOTR
Jul 27th, 2009 (1:20 pm)Lyle says: “On a 6.5 mile course I was able to achieve 92.5 MPG in the Prius, with reasonable driving style and moving safely with the flow of the traffic. On another 12 mile course I obtained 81 MPG. ”
____________________
Of course, I’m sure this was on a slow speed route (under 45 mph(?)) with very careful driving . . . . but it brings up the question: how much more can Toyota wring out of a gallon of gas with a “conventional” hybrid? What will mpg be on Gen 4, Gen 5?
If a same sized Prius Gen 4 or 5 could achieve a real world 60 or 80 mpg, at some point, does the whole plug in idea become just a nuisance?
/2 years ago I would have said mid 40′s was about all you could get out of a mid sized sedan hybrid . . . now, I’m not sure what the limit is.
+1
Jul 27th, 2009 (1:20 pm)In some situations you could be correct.
But until a BEV is good for at least 50 miles in the dead of winter there is NO WAY I’m putting my wife in one.
My job requires more range than any existing BEV (with the very costly exception of the tesla) can provide.
Our ‘third’ car is my truck, (1997 Land Rover Discovery) it pulls the camper and does the yard maintenance related trips, but I rarely commute with it.
For a BEV to enter my world it would have to be the 4th car.
I’m not prepared to go there. I don’t think I’m alone on this one.
-1
Jul 27th, 2009 (1:27 pm)Just ignore all those motorists lined up behind you, giving you the finger ! As well, ignore all those young people laughing at your sled !
Jul 27th, 2009 (1:27 pm)Then we can welcome you to the Fusion Hybrid club…
Jul 27th, 2009 (1:28 pm)About half the time, my comments get wiped out after I refresh the browser. This is getting old.
+1
Jul 27th, 2009 (1:34 pm)Amen2 !
+3
Jul 27th, 2009 (1:47 pm)Regardless of the final figure–even 10% would be better than the Prius’s 0%. And all the R&D and product development was done here. Not to mention the profits and the benefits in terms of selling, other, GM American made vehicles.
Besides GM is building a factory to produce the engines here. LG is building a factory to produce the cells here. What more do you want?
-5
Jul 27th, 2009 (1:49 pm)Now your talking my language. This is so true. Once the Volt exceeds the 20 mile radius than most of today’s hybrids can already give it a severe whoopin. The Volt is really just an expensive grocery getter, if you can wrap your mind around that one. woot.
+3
Jul 27th, 2009 (1:49 pm)OK. I misunderstood your point. I though you were comparing an EREV and a BEV with a larger pack.
However, the reason that this would actually be the right comparison is that the EREV will always have a smaller pack. (The larger pack option that Mitsubishi is rumored to be considering reflects this realty).
This brings us to the crux of the problem: You think batteries are going down in price fairly quickly and I think they’re going down in price slowly. I’d love to be wrong but it’s difficult to see how lithium batteries will go down in price given that 80% of the cost is in the raw materials. I’m sort of holding out for lithium-air because those batteries will eliminate a lot of the necessary material, but that is many years away, assuming it works at all. And of course perhaps EESTOR will work out, though we can agree that this doesn’t seem likely.
Assuming we’re talking about lithium cells, since the cost of the battery pack for the EREV will go down along with the cost of the pack for the BEV, rather than saying that BEVs will have an advantage after day one, I’d say that EREVs will have a cost advantage until the price of a 16 kWh pack drops below the price of an engine (which will also drop in price as they right size it). To me we’re looking at twenty years, which is a fairly long time. And even then BEVs will still have the range issue …
Jul 27th, 2009 (1:50 pm)What happens if the cat has a steel plate in its head or a metal pin in its leg?
+1
Jul 27th, 2009 (1:52 pm)@carcus1
You posting links?
Put spaces in a kew p h r a s e real quick. You might be posting something Lyle is working on.
+4
Jul 27th, 2009 (1:52 pm)Even with this ‘worst case’ scenario I bet when you look at the real world driving patterns the Volt will come out better.
Most of us drive 40 miles or less during our workday commutes using little to no gas at all. Unless of course you drive 200 highway miles every day in which case I feel bad for you!
I think the genset will exceed 50 mpg, but I have been accused of being overly optimistic on that one.
But the real point is that it doesn’t matter about the genset mileage if 90% of your weekday driving is full electric. It took me a while to get my head wrapped around that one too.
Jul 27th, 2009 (1:53 pm)My personal opinion is that the Volt will take sales from both the Prius and the luxury car makers. However, until the volume gets up no one will notice. (For a certain but not tiny demographic, the Prius BTW has taken sales from BMW 5 Series and MB E Class — people don’t really but the Prius because its cheap. They buy it buy it because it’s green).
Jul 27th, 2009 (1:56 pm)It might follow the Impala and Malibu trim lines. LT, LT1, LT2 and LTZ, in that order, I believe. Seems to be a common lineup from GM in the Chevrolet brand.
In my opinion, Chevrolet probably should announce three trim lines: base, mid-range and maxed out. What they call each is immaterial. The buying public seems to fall into those three categories pretty easily. Especially since engine size and type differences are eliminated.
+1
Jul 27th, 2009 (2:00 pm)That’s likely a good question to ask prior to installing said charger!
I just don’t want something like that taking up valuble garage floor space!
I’ll have my 220 cord on a hook on the wall.
Jul 27th, 2009 (2:01 pm)And, by that time you will be ready to move up to the Volt. Not that the Fusion Hybrid will be bad, but in time even it will wear out. Good luck, if that is the direction you take. Well, good luck in any case.
+1
Jul 27th, 2009 (2:01 pm)On the Prius, I have studied the drive train after a few beers and I am almost positive that Toyota has a big killer up their sleeves. MG1 and MG2 have enough power to move the car well beyond the 34mph AND at 34mph if they bump the battery they can probably reach 40 AER @ 34mph. But I think the key is some minor space in the drive train that might accomodate a method of disengaging the ICE. If this is possible then I think MG2 can operate as the traction and MG1 is the Genset.
That’s my SWAG, sound crazy? A Parallel Hybrid to a Series Hybrid?
Jul 27th, 2009 (2:02 pm)Good question. Only the individual making the purchase can say for sure.
+1
Jul 27th, 2009 (2:02 pm)I’m OK with that.
Jul 27th, 2009 (2:03 pm)Yeah. I wish it worked more like the “clunkers” deal where you got it off the cost of the car at the dealer.
Jul 27th, 2009 (2:09 pm)They just have to get it right, from serial #1.
If the Volt comes to the dealers, and it looks and drives cheap, it will be doomed.
I think (and hope big time!) that they finally get it at GM.
Don’t let us down!!!!!
And you can count me in as a member of the Volt Fanboy Club!!
-2
Jul 27th, 2009 (2:09 pm)To calculate “actual fuel usage” you also need to consider number of units as well as total miles driven.
The Tahoe, Yukon and Escape hybrids sell only about 1,500/month for all three combined. They also haven’t been available for a particularly long period of time.
Therefore they are much less significant than a car like the Prius.
-2
Jul 27th, 2009 (2:10 pm)It no made of lead. It quality a/c motors.
Jul 27th, 2009 (2:14 pm)Thanks Lyle. Those numbers are shocking. The one that stands out the most for me is 92.5 (repeated for clarity).
92.5 
92.5 
92.5 
Wow, I am still having trouble absorbing that rather large numba.
+1
Jul 27th, 2009 (2:16 pm)No links. It’s just there, and next time I refresh my browser my post is gone.
/?
-3
Jul 27th, 2009 (2:17 pm)Monkey Math
-5
Jul 27th, 2009 (2:21 pm)Mari,
It makes sense… but in Volt nation people would rather wait a couple years for the right to pay 50% more (plus take a government handout) so they can drive a car that goes 30 miles on the highway (no AC) and then gets 50MPG (they hope).
Lyle himself drives just over 50 miles/day with no place to charge at work. His 80 MPG Prius number (I don’t believe in posting such context-less numbers, but he opened the door) means he would use about .65 gallons per day with the Prius NOW. Assuming the volt gets 30 miles electric on the highway and 50 MPG highway, he will use .45 gallons/day with the volt + electricity.
Yet he still writes “neither of these cars can be compared to the Volt” even though under his own admitted circumstances the Volt would save only perhaps 50-75 gallons/year over the Prius if he drives his typical commute 365 days. It will be even less of a margin if he drives more than 50 in a given day.
But he will waste 5-10 times that much in fuel PER YEAR (assuming a 30MPG car) waiting for the Volt instead of buying a Prius now!
Reality is going to be painful.
+1
Jul 27th, 2009 (2:24 pm)LOL. Maybe so. From what I’ve read (though not much is out there?!?) it seems to be the best hybrid available overall (not using MPG as the sole measure of best).
+1
Jul 27th, 2009 (2:24 pm)Well how bout this….
I drive 10 miles one way so 20 round trip for work. At the end of the week I have driven 100 miles right?
5days X 20miles = 100Miles
So one month I drive say 400 miles
With the Prius, I would have used 5 consumer purchased gallons. Sounds good.
With the Volt, I have used 0 consumer purchassed gallons.
Let’s take it to a 40 mile one way commute…
40miles X 2 = 80miles round trip
1 week is 80 X 5 = 400 miles per week total
So we have 1600 miles for the month.
With the Prius, I would have used 20 consumer purchased gallons. Sounds good.
With the Volt, I have used 0 consumer purchassed gallons.
what was your argument about again?
Jul 27th, 2009 (2:25 pm)From the time I first found this site a year and a half ago I had thought about holding out for the Volt. But something is nagging at me and that is how likely will it be available in my area (including dealer maintenance) when I’m ready to upgrade?
Jul 27th, 2009 (2:26 pm)If you watch the video, Nissan makes it all seem possible. Maybe it is. But only if you “plan” each and every trip. I like a lot of what I saw dealing with charging the battery using a timer function and turning on the air/heat using a timer function. Getting charging status by web or phone was good. It is a start. Someone (a major auto company) has to make a start somewhere. It seems Nissan has decided this is the way to start. OK, let’s go and see where it takes us.
Jul 27th, 2009 (2:26 pm)Just because something doesn’t sell as well doesn’t make it inferior. It’s all about perception and marketing. People buy Priuses to show the world how much they care. Supposedly.
I know someone who says that she would like to buy a Prius, but recently used paper plates and plastic forks for the guests of an 8-person social gathering.
+1
Jul 27th, 2009 (2:27 pm)change your email to some arbitrary email like sales@nortel.com
DELETE YOUR COOKIES & CACHE FIRST!!!!
Jul 27th, 2009 (2:27 pm)Which is actually a pretty nice normal looking car to be an EV.
+1
Jul 27th, 2009 (2:29 pm)Some people are just never satisfied, Old Man. Not like us “regular” folks.
Jul 27th, 2009 (2:29 pm)Well, you ARE the cap’n so crazy is somewhat expected!
Actually I bet Toyota has looked at this too, If the Volt is as big a hit as I think it’s going to be they will need to bring out a 4th gen prius in a hurry, it’ll likely be an EREV adaptation like you suggest.
+4
Jul 27th, 2009 (2:30 pm)No, the Volt won’t have to worry about touching 92.5 MPG. Thank goodness.
Jul 27th, 2009 (2:34 pm)Hi CJS, I hope when the plug-in Prius hits the fleet market in very limited supply in December, 2009, we will learn more. Perhaps MG2 will be rated for 105 kW, and the SOC window will be 4 kWh. Once we get this info, then and only then will we be able to compare the Volt to the PHEV Prius-15.
+2
Jul 27th, 2009 (2:35 pm)Yeah, we Americans are well experienced with the crap made in China. If you want the lowest price, have it built in China. But, be sure to buy several of them because Chinese made goods are cheap and sorry. After we buying it, the product is not the only thing sorry. We are sorry we bought them.
+2
Jul 27th, 2009 (2:37 pm)Agreed…….
Jul 27th, 2009 (2:37 pm)Yeah, it’s a 30% price difference, but over half of that is for the solar roof, which didn’t help Lyle’s evaluation of the Prius at all.
+1
Jul 27th, 2009 (2:39 pm)Say WHAT??????????
Jul 27th, 2009 (2:44 pm)Capt Jack,
I assume you have the ability of plugging-in at work in the second example. There is no doubt the Volt will do much better than the Prius in a daily commute cycle under 20 miles one way. I drive 10 miles each way. A Volt would keep me away from the service station for gas for most of the year. I make very few trips out of the commute cycle. A few short 100 mile or so round trips per year and one 1200 mile round trip every year or so. Very acceptable with a Volt.
Jul 27th, 2009 (2:45 pm)You got to hit the submit comment button before refreshing the screen.
Jul 27th, 2009 (2:47 pm)You mean it appears after you submit your comment then disappears later on the next refresh of the screen? Sounds like Lyle doesn’t like you. But, no, Lyle likes everyone.
Jul 27th, 2009 (2:47 pm)“With the Volt, I have used 0 consumer purchassed gallons.”
As long as you can charge at work…Like me!
+2
Jul 27th, 2009 (2:51 pm)But who in their right mind is going to try to drive 40 miles at 34 MPH? Not me. You will get run over. What I would want to know is how far would it take me at 60 MPH on the interstate driving into work. Or through city traffic at around 40 – 45 MPH. That is about what I do commuting to work.
-1
Jul 27th, 2009 (2:51 pm)The Prius is still king of the Hybrid Hill. The Volt will have its work cut out for them to knock Toyota off their hill. The real question is will the electric-only cars become more popular before the Volt has a chance to build a following. TIme will tell. Also a new energy storage device (i.e. EEstor, SuperCapacitors, etc) could slay the Volt in its tracks and make it an Instant Dinosaur.
+1
Jul 27th, 2009 (3:00 pm)From what I see in this photo – I’m not sure I could tell one from another. Are all the electric’s tested in wind tunnels going to look the same???
+2
Jul 27th, 2009 (3:10 pm)High quality products? From China? Did you hear about the 40 million HCI has set aside to replace the defective illness causing Chinese drywall they used in new homes? Lennar also put aside 38.5 million for their drywall.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124827419418172379.html
Then there’s the formaldahyde found in children’s clothes exported to New Zealand.
http://www.abc.net.au/worldtoday/content/2007/s2009572.htm
Then there’s the pet food, the baby formula, the toothpaste…I could go on….
+1
Jul 27th, 2009 (3:11 pm)What do all of these “flat underfloor” battery packs do for maintaining the cells’ optimum temperature range? If we think that’s an important thing, doesn’t spreading them out like electric peanut butter greatly increase their surface area? Wouldn’t they require much more insulation than a blockier shape? How exactly would you get a liquid cooling/heating system into such a thin layer?
And what happens if you “bottom out” — ?
Jul 27th, 2009 (3:15 pm)Get in one of those vehicles and get those mpg numbers and report on how much you changed your driving style. That’s what I’ve done and that’s what I base that on. My main point is that the more “normal” you drive these two cars, you have much closer fuel economy than you might gather reading this particular comparison.
Also note that the state of charge on the battery can have a huge effect, especially on short trips. Gen III Prius warms up faster and if you have a full battery and take a short trip you get a false sense of your mpg’s, because you didn’t have the battery at the same SOC when you finished (not saying that happened here, just saying it does happen). The longer (time & distance) and faster you drive these two cars, the closer they are on fuel efficiency.
+2
Jul 27th, 2009 (3:15 pm)“No name” is talking to himself, again. Better watch out …
Jul 27th, 2009 (3:16 pm)I hope not!
I really don’t like the look of either one.
+1
Jul 27th, 2009 (3:17 pm)Hence why I said work toward replacing the existing Silverado/Sierra (the highest volume GM trucks) with the hybrid.
Assuming the following link is correct that’s ~200000 GM trucks year to date ‘june 2009′ combining Silverado and Sierra numbers.
http://news.pickuptrucks.com/2009/07/june-2009-top-10-truck-sales.html#more
A LOT of Silverado’s and Sierra’s are bought and worked everyday.
The saving of gas in the real world could be huge.
With that sort of volume the cost of 2 mode hybrid bits just have to come down.
It would one heck of a statement from GM proving they are serious about making things better too!
+1
Jul 27th, 2009 (3:21 pm)Yeah…you and the rest of North America.
+4
Jul 27th, 2009 (3:22 pm)Errr…. your numbers are a wee bit skewed there bunkie.
For Lyles 50 mile commute he goes 40 of those miles full electric.
The last 10 he’s on the genset. Refer to post #26 and you will find he will be seeing roughly 250 mpg.
Oh yes, Lyle CAN charge at work so most days he will run gas free.
There is a picture on the Mini article.
I think that’s a wee bit of all right.
Jul 27th, 2009 (3:26 pm)Certainly better than most!
The Clio has gotten a lot of excellent reviews.
+3
Jul 27th, 2009 (3:28 pm)Just because it’s easy doesn’t make it wrong!
Jul 27th, 2009 (3:29 pm)Our resident troll is extremely active today.
+3
Jul 27th, 2009 (3:38 pm)Maybe we should nickname him “Mumbly Joe” then.
+1
Jul 27th, 2009 (3:39 pm)Ya, I know but I didn’t want to leave that one hanging out there…
Jul 27th, 2009 (3:40 pm)uh,…. yah
Jul 27th, 2009 (3:49 pm)That works for me.
Maxed out for me! (I LIKE the toys… gimme a break!)
Jul 27th, 2009 (3:53 pm)Lyle:
Put on some shoes. I have a hard time believing you with flip flops… What are you, some kind of pinko hippie????
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!
And maybe one of Maximum Bob’s pink ties, unless statik has already got all of them…..
Nice house in the background – is that yours???????
Jul 27th, 2009 (3:53 pm)…is not really that much…
_____________________
Some data continues to be intentionally left out….
Volt (EREV-10)
Prius PHEV-40
Drawing conclusions for people rather than providing the data so they can make the determination for themselves is clearly bias. We’ve been through this before.
Hymotion offers a upgrade Prius PHEV-25 already. 93.5 MPG is the average reported from the Google mini-fleet using it. Why is data like that still excluded?
Jul 27th, 2009 (4:01 pm)Hehe, the more we talk here…the more we are on the same page. I personally, don’t think lithium packs will drop that fast myself. Sorry if I gave that impression.
In the short term (3-4 years), I don’t think the the raw element availability or the costing to actually fabricate thepack will keep it high…but the insane demand for packs will. I figure the cost per kWh probably stays level for awhile, even those making their own will/would be all too happy for some extra margins while they can get it.
After the first wave/surge is done, I figure maybe pack costs come off 20% or so, but we only see maybe 5%/year after that. I don’t disagree with you either that it is probably more than a decade to see pack costs cut in half.
The only fly in the ointment of trying to predict the future here is we really haven’t seen it scale to any degree yet, especially for the auto manufacturers producing there own. Hard to say what type of margins LG, A123, Enerdel, etc. are actually cooking into these packs in higher volumes. I suspect will won’t be able to get a good handle on it until at least 2011-2012, or when someone comes out with a 2nd gen ‘whatever,’ and the 2nd gen pricing to boot.
+1
Jul 27th, 2009 (4:04 pm)6.1/100 is pretty darn good for what you are driving around (very nice fit and finish on the Fusion)…thats right around 40 MPG. Nice to see real world meet up with hype…refreshing.
+1
Jul 27th, 2009 (4:07 pm)Improving tech over this same period will mean that more energy gets stored with less material. Smaller, lighter packs will do the same work, or same sized packs will do more.
This will lower costs in ways that have nothing directly to do with the material, or even the manufacturing difficulty. For instance, a car that is lighter overall because of a smaller pack means even less battery material is needed to move it the same distance.
-1
Jul 27th, 2009 (4:08 pm)Actually the Prius makes the most sense if you drive very little. As you drive more the Volt makes more sense. it all has to do with battery utilization. The battery costs a bundle, so if you don’t use it then you’re paying a lot without purpose.
FYI, the Prius doesn’t get 80 mpg under most circumstances, and the longer the trip the lower mpg it will tend to get.
Jul 27th, 2009 (4:12 pm)The reviewers seem to think the Prius is the more enjoyable car. It also gets better mileage. Between the two attributes better mileage seems to be todays “killer feature”. Therefore ceteris paribus, how long will it take to “pay back the $2000 more up front for a Prius than an Insight, through lower costs at the gas pump?
Jul 27th, 2009 (4:13 pm)Thats a good point.
I’m sure a good portion (maybe as high as 5-10%) of the Prius buyers are strictly interested in buying the ‘greenest’ vehicle, the price is not the main factor.
I think the ‘EV revolution’ does take a chunk from the potential future Prius sales worldwide, as a guess, maybe they sell 50,000 less. How much the Volt specifically takes? I dunno. We have to remember that the ‘price is no object’ crowd that drive the Prius now, may not see the Volt as the next’ most greenest/coolest’ either.
Does 50,000 hurt Toyota all that bad when they are probably still selling 600,000 copies in 2011? No, but a trend is a trend, and if they don’t adjust at all, and ignore it, at some point it might come back to bite them…they risk losing it all if they don’t committ to some degree to this market.
Personally, I think they are insane for not making a EREV or BEV and slapping the ‘Prius’ name on it, seems like a no-brainer. Toyota has all the green cred there is to be given right now, why not take that cred out for a spin and see what it can do in the EV universe. Whats the down side? Maybe, MAYBE worst case is they lose a a few hundred million…the upsight is hundreds of billions to be the leader of the next generation.
+2
Jul 27th, 2009 (4:14 pm)As far as I know there is no plan to build a Volt (EREV-10).
I don’t pretend to know anything about Hymotion so all I can say about that is if they are not factory authorized I’d stay away.
(maybe they are)
Jul 27th, 2009 (4:19 pm)Yes, my employer has charging parking spots at most of our facilities. I figure the comparison of best cae for best case was a fair comparison.
Jul 27th, 2009 (4:22 pm)Well, considering the Model S was in the wind tunnel also, I would think not. But so far……as I see what’s in production it’s a yes.
(
Jul 27th, 2009 (4:23 pm)Why are we comparing a base Volt to a Base Prius. It fits in Chevy’s specialty region with Corvettes, Camaros, Tahoes, Avalanche etc. These are vehicles that are north of 35 or 40 thousand or as with the Camaro world beater hot.
As such the Volt should more appropriately be compared with Infinity’s and Acuras. And lacking comparable electric versions of those, perhaps making the jump up to comparing with Lexus hybrids gives a much better status check than does the Prius.
Jul 27th, 2009 (4:31 pm)I’ve personally never seen an electric car charging station in the real world, either at an employer or any retail store etc.
Actually the only electric vehicle I have ever driven was an airplane tug.
The Volt is going to be a very new experience for me!
But this also underscores how important EREV is for a lot of us.
There are no ‘proper’ charging stations in a lot of the world!
Jul 27th, 2009 (4:41 pm)Since they are all 5 door hatch body styles (at this point) there is a good chance! They are basically mini station wagons, like it or not they are practical.
As our good Captain pointed out a sedan can look quite different.
As the market expands to more models they will get different shapes to suit their use.
-1
Jul 27th, 2009 (4:44 pm)Where do you live, the north pole? Here in FL the dead of winter is 60 degrees.
-1
Jul 27th, 2009 (4:49 pm)What I can’t wrap around my head is that the very proponents of the EREV capabilities of the Volt and say it’s a must have feature are the same people who say they will never drive over 40 miles a day. Which of course is the perfect candidate for a BEV. But bring up BEV and they say EREV is the only way to go. Even though they will never use gas???
Jul 27th, 2009 (4:56 pm)Or you can buy a Prius for $22k, get the aftermarket plug in kit for another $7k and have your EREV with 40 mile electric range for around $30k.
+1
Jul 27th, 2009 (4:58 pm)Nissan has a small video teaser on their micro site for their new EV…
http://www2.nissan-zeroemission.com/EN/
Jul 27th, 2009 (5:00 pm)“basically mini station wagons”
Is there a wood panel option???
AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!
Jul 27th, 2009 (5:04 pm)This really has nothing to do with what we are discussing but I had some women the other day pass me with a Prius doing about 90 mph. I was wondering why she even purchased it.
Jul 27th, 2009 (5:07 pm)Of course if I lived in Tokyo I wouldn’t NEED one because they have an excellent subway system there.
+1
Jul 27th, 2009 (5:11 pm)“some women the other day pass me with a Prius doing about 90 mph”
She had to get to that Shoe sale @ Nordstrom……
AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!
Jul 27th, 2009 (5:20 pm)“I’ve personally never seen an electric car charging station in the real world,”
Ive seen many. Most are just regulas NEMA 15A oe 240VAC 30A but some are the Paddle style inductive and some have both, all coverd of course. That was jus one of the inadvertant perks. Thats when I first realized standardization was needed.
“Actually the only electric vehicle I have ever driven was an airplane tug.”
My first ride was on a modified 48VDC golf cart that we bumped to 72VDC with a new controller and an 8″ ADC motor. The guy that owned it lived in a gated ritzy community and had it all pimped out. So a friend mentioned me to him and now that golf cart blows the hell out of the rest. It even chirps the tires and lays rubber.
That was a fun project.
+1
Jul 27th, 2009 (5:21 pm)Really? There is a 16KWh aftermarket plug-in kit for the Prius for $7K?
+2
Jul 27th, 2009 (5:21 pm)James, it’s the peace of mind and lack of “range anxiety” that makes the Volt attractive. No lifestyle change required. Drive as usual. Anytime, anywhere. Just plug it in when you get home.
And if you forget to plug it in, or there is a power outage like there is where I live several times a year, you’re still good to go with the Volt. The on-board range extender takes care of all the worries.
And if you decide to drive to Vegas after work on Friday instead of going home, you’re good to go with the Volt. You are not chained down to a plug.
So with the Chevy Volt you have all the advantages of a pure electric vehicle, without any of the disadvantages.
+1
Jul 27th, 2009 (5:32 pm)Well….
Technically you can by 44 cells 3.6VDC 100AH at a price of $110.00 per cell for $4,840.00. Of course that’s just the cells. You need the BMS as well for about $2K: evcomponents.com
So I don’t think $7K is alot for 16KWH pack.
Jul 27th, 2009 (5:45 pm)Thank-You , I was wondering how things were going with your new car .
You are from Calgary , am I right on this ?
-1
Jul 27th, 2009 (6:13 pm)Very true. I doubt we’ll see a 40AER Prius, but we could see a 2-4KWh (10-20 mile AER equivalent) usable window plug-in Prius. They may try to make a real AER for PZEV+ credits but it would make most sense if they just use the plug-in energy as an extended window that is EV only capable but will still engage the ICE at certain power levels just as the standard model does. The Prius will just have phenomenal gas mileage while the plug-in energy lasts and for those that baby it can get AER.
Jul 27th, 2009 (6:22 pm)Nice catch, I just came here to post that.
/so far, so good…looking forward to Aug 2nd.
Jul 27th, 2009 (6:24 pm)Why bother with shoes if you’ve got a lead foot?
Did she look like this?
http://www.101thefox.net/Portals/1/Brody/Danica%20Patrick%20-%20SI%202009.jpg
Jul 27th, 2009 (6:31 pm)I bet you’re a he!! of a toothpick counter.
Jul 27th, 2009 (6:37 pm)Lyle says: “On a 6.5 mile course I was able to achieve 92.5 MPG in the Prius, with reasonable driving style and moving safely with the flow of the traffic. On another 12 mile course I obtained 81 MPG.”
________________________
Most likely a slow speed (below 45 mph) run and very meticulous driving. But still it raises the question. . . . at what point of mpg does a “regular” hybrid make you think a plug in hybrid will just be extra (battery) cost and hassle?
If the Gen 4 or Gen 5 prius gets 60 or 70 or 80 mpg (real world, combined) . . . would you even consider a plug-in hybrid?
/ A few years ago I would have said 45 mpg was about the limit for a mid sized hybrid, now. . . I’m not so sure.
Jul 27th, 2009 (6:48 pm)Wow, nice pair of…….shoes
lol…..
Jul 27th, 2009 (6:58 pm)I always wanted to be a shoe salesman.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gLWvc0DedtU
+1
Jul 27th, 2009 (7:02 pm)You should show us where we are making our math mistake.
+2
Jul 27th, 2009 (7:06 pm)All I really wanted was a GM car that was the equal of the Prius. The more I follow this saga, the more I fear that the attempt to “leapfrog” the Prius was a mistake. By the time the Volt achieves any sort of serious production numbers, I fear that it will be too late.
If Volts don’t start to trickle down to the general public for another 2-3 years, which seems pretty likely, who knows where the technology will have gone by then?
Some of us are not going to buy a Toyota, Honda, Hyundai, BYD, et al, no matter what kind of gee-whiz technology they roll out. But looking around SoCal every day, it’s pretty clear that we are a tiny minority.
Jul 27th, 2009 (7:07 pm)The Ontario government will give $10, 000 towards cost so if you are Canadian go to Ontario get an Ontario drivers license and buy the car in Toronto , save yourself lots of money and drive the car back out west .
+2
Jul 27th, 2009 (7:08 pm)Great. We loan them $1.6 billion to help them to kick our butts in the marketplace. Whither our beloved country?
Jul 27th, 2009 (7:13 pm)Valuable real space?.. it goes under the car.
Jul 27th, 2009 (7:16 pm)A fair test would be a 2010 Prius at $22k with a $10k Hymotion plug-in pack.. and then compare that to a Volt.
Jul 27th, 2009 (7:17 pm)“The issue with BEVs right now is range.
The issue for EREVs is starting platform costs.”
Static,
This is the reason that I am a fan of Better Place. An EREV doesn’t need new infrastructure, but its main drawback is its higher upfront cost.
With the BP model, on the hand, all the issues with BEV (range, high upfront cost of batteries) are addressed. A BP compatible car will actually be cheaper than a comparable ICE car (because the consumer doesn’t need to buy the most expensive component i.e. the battery) , and allot cheaper than an EREV.
So in terms of affordability to the average driver to switch to electrification, the BP model has the lowest entrance cost.
Jul 27th, 2009 (7:30 pm)same thing that would happen if you bottomed out on a car with an oil pan or a tank full of explosive liquid fuel.
The video showed good clearance under the car.. after all there will not be an exhaust system or gas tank taking up real estate down there.
Jul 27th, 2009 (7:31 pm)Presumably because she gets better miliage in her Prius at 95 mph than she would in a Camry at 95 mph?
Jul 27th, 2009 (7:41 pm)well the plug-in version of the Prius can go up to 62 mph on electric.. they changed the gears on one of the motors I think.. still does not use a stinking clutch or torque converter.
I imagine that a production version of the plug-in Prius would have the appropriate motors for highway speeds with electric power.
Jul 27th, 2009 (7:41 pm)NP 45…
Seeing a huge number of new GM trucks on the road here in So California. And a big jump in economy level Kia/Scion/Versa vehicles. Impala and Malibu are also selling well. Have seen only one gen3 Prius so far.
80% of the public will spend between $20k-$40k on their next new car. One of 6 or 8 hybrid clones? Or German technology @ 25 mpg? Or a pure electric car with no gasoline engine for extended travel? Or an Extended Range Electric Vehicle?
NGMCO needs three new EREV in 2010 showrooms. The Chevy Volt, the Cadillac Converj, and an EREV truck.
Getting as many of these on the road as quickly as is possible. And letting word of mouth and test drive publications generate increased interest.
The buyer will be going to the dealer which he perceives as having the newest technology line. How many will see EREV as being the newest? Time will tell.
=D~
Jul 27th, 2009 (7:43 pm)…Can’t we all just get along?????
Jul 27th, 2009 (7:59 pm)That is why I believe that Nissan BEV’s will be much more successful in places with Better Place compatibility.
1. the consumer won’t have to buy the battery upfront, therefore the car is alot cheaper.
2. the issue of “range anxiety” is addressed with battery switch stations.
Jul 27th, 2009 (8:15 pm)I guess I failed again to reach the majority. But, I take it as challenge to get the most car, for the least amount of cash.
I am looking at vehicles, but still think I can squeeze a year or two more, out of my ’96 Altima, with 207,000 miles and counting.
Unless our good ole’ govt’ decides to give me about $25,000 rebate on the Volt, I am afraid I will just get to drool over you guys with the deep pockets.
Come on Obama, how ’bout a “Cash for JEC” program!
+1
Jul 27th, 2009 (8:18 pm)I feel your pain. I feel the same way. But the Ford Fusion Hybrid is a great contender. And it’s made in the US. Or at least some of them are. Or they used to be. But, anyway, it’s a domestic brand. And Mexico beats Japan/China/South Korea in my book.
For what it’s worth, I think that Voltec is a winner. Could something else come along to render it obsolete? Of course. But the same thing could happen with a regular hybrid. Or anything really. That’s the nature of new technology. But that doesn’t mean you shouldn’t work on new technology!
The only real threats that I see to the Volt are Nissan’s BEVs and the Toyota’s plug-Prius. (So far, anyway, obviously anything can happen.) Nissan hasn’t announced a price for their BEVs yet. And I personally think that they are a permanent niche anyway. People are too used to being able to fill up at gas stations. Yes, a major breakthrough in battery technology could change that. But Nissan is far more wedded to their battery technology than GM is to LG chem’s.
As far as Toyota, I would never discount them. They are a formidable competitor. But we don’t know the details of the plug-in prius yet. They could come up with a plug-in Prius that blows the Volt away. But so far it doesn’t sound like that’s what they’re doing.
+1
Jul 27th, 2009 (8:47 pm)For the VOLT to succeed, everyone needs to quit comparing it to a Prius and start comparing it to upcoming Hybrids from Lexus, BMW and Mercedes-Benz. Price-wise it’s a more logical comparison.
If GM can come through with fit, finish and performance; It would sell quite well against those.
Jul 27th, 2009 (9:03 pm)Laura, great comment, you forget one thing, most of our trade deficit is due to our reliance on foreign oil. If the volt and the electrification of our transportation system really happens, then the correction of our trade deficit would only be harmful to some countries (think the middle east). See article in Time Magazine.
http://curiouscapitalist.blogs.time.com/2008/05/29/the_trade_deficit_has_turned_v/
Regards
Jul 27th, 2009 (9:24 pm)Looks like Nissan’s doing it right. (they’ve even got a safety system to protect Dan Petit’s kitty from gettin’ fried).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PJW3Jpqjx5s
The thing that pisses me off a little bit . . . . all that great cutting edge technology and I can’t read any of it – - all in Japanese.
Why oh why are we fat ‘merakins sitting in the spectator booth while Japan launches personal transportation into the next era????!!!
/california based aptera is making a go at it, but too new, too small, not enough dinero
Jul 27th, 2009 (9:40 pm)That’s a bit of a stretch. They’ve got to find their way into the car (where?) along with a charger, plug, wiring, colling(?), mounting hardware, etc. Hopefully not the cumbusting kind of install like a couple of the other Prius conversion hacks. Hymotion and the other conversions with @10AER cost @$10k for a reason and you still loose half of the trunk with one of these smaller battery packs.
Jul 27th, 2009 (9:41 pm)Can I pose a semi-serious question 7 replies deep? What’s stopping John B. Engineer from swapping out a battery that’s 4/5 bricks and making off with a handsome profit? I wouldn’t claim to be at the cutting edge of Better Place planning, but I haven’t heard of intricate security checks.
A car could be stolen, tinkered with, and a disguised man could drive it into the swap station with all legitimate vehicle tracking info you’d like to stick to it. The battery would be changed, and the bandit would be off.
Yes, encrypted anti-tamper recorders/transmitters could be installed, with complicated battery tests and robot-eye inspectors at the swap station, but is there serious talk of implementing such measures? Could it be justified when, even in an ideal world, convenience (a hefty chunk of which is speed) is the idea’s only palpable advantage and the cost-efficiency of the project inherently walks a narrow line?
I open my thoughts to fun discussion and pleasant ridicule.
Jul 27th, 2009 (9:52 pm)GXT wrote, “The Tahoe, Yukon and Escape hybrids sell only about 1,500/month for all three combined.”
Not quite. GM sells about 1500 hybrids of all types in a month. The last time I saw figures by vehicle, about half were the two-mode hybrids and about half were the BAS hybrids. You could probably safely assume about 800 two-modes/month.
Of course, GXT, you are right about impact. Numbers matter. It will take a long time for the Volt, as a replacement for a car of similar interior room to generate the fuel savings of over a million Priuses, as replacements for cars of a similar interior size to it.
Jul 27th, 2009 (9:54 pm)…and we’re loaning them $1.6B, we don’t have, to do it.
Jul 27th, 2009 (9:58 pm)Yes, too bad GM stepped on their ____ and made it a Chevy. If it were a Caddy or a Buick more people would be comparing it to those hybrids and comparable ICEs.
Jul 27th, 2009 (10:00 pm)Did you mistake his Prius for a Buick?
Jul 27th, 2009 (10:04 pm)If you look at the demonstration of the BP swap technology you will see that its virtually impossible for anyone to steal a BP battery. The swap technology includes 3 sets of computers interacting with one another to get access to the battery. The car, the battery and the swap station all have computers communicating with each other which then instructs the car to release the battery.
Besides, the battery is not even the consumers concern. The consumer doesn’t own the battery. Its BP that has to worry about battery theft and security, NOT the consumer. The consumer can just go to BP for a replacement. After all the consumer doesn’t buy the battery, all he is paying for is miles, much like a with a cellphone you pay for minutes.
At the end of the day the BP model will be the cheapest way for the average person to own an electric drive vehicle.
+3
Jul 27th, 2009 (10:15 pm)Your right, in terms of ‘affordability’ to switch to electrification, the PBP model does have the lowest entrance cost. However, so is a ‘rent-to’own’ sofa as compared to going down to Sears to buy it outright. The better deal is always going to be the latter.
PBP is the classic cell phone scam. Here, have a free phone thats worth $500, all you have to do is lock down for XX years and promise to pay us at least XXX amount of dollars….by the time you are through your contract, you have paid 3 times the value of the phone because you were either:
A) too much of a cheapass to buy it up front
B) not good with math
C) in no position to really buy a that fancy new iPhone 3GS at all, but your eyes were bigger than your stomach
A PBP enabled car is not cheaper than a ICE car, or a BEV…it is a pure ‘lock-in’ scam, they own you once you sign up. You pay, and then you pay some more, and then you pay some more.
How ridiculous is it to assume Agassi can have zillions of packs, put up thousands of ‘refueling’ stations (at $500,000 a station), charge by the mile, make his own profit, and represent a value to the customer over time?
My cash on the barrel to buy a EV outright, and me handling my own business to charge it will own the heck out of anything PBP can do for me. I’m sure you have as strong as a opinion as I do on the other side…but I like to own myself stuff, I don’t want to be beholden to anyone, and I will NEVER lease/make payments on a battery, total none starter for me.
Maybe if he indeed gets all the infrastructure up, and has a EV ‘refueling’ station every 50 miles (which would be like a million of them to cover the US) you could argue some price premium for convenience….but when I stayed at a hotel 2 nights ago after the Blue Jay game I went to, I didn’t open the $20 jar of peanuts and take a $8 can of Coke out of the hotel mini bar just because it was convienient, I stopped at a variety store before I hit my room. Same story for me with PBP.
I think Shai Agassi is just a real good salesperson, he sees the dollar bills that can be had from governments around the world and he is going to grab them.
/time will tell
Jul 27th, 2009 (10:22 pm)Did you type “EESTOR?”
http://www.treehugger.com/files/2009/07/eestor-speaks-huge-leak.php
Jul 27th, 2009 (10:22 pm)…means I’d have to start wearing suits again, been a long time.
Vive le glorious revolution of slacks and a polo shirt…and owning your own business so you can show up in your pyjamas if your want too. (=
Jul 27th, 2009 (10:33 pm)The question is this:
Will more people pay extra to buy an EV outright (think Nissan etc.) including the cost of the battery pack and limited range with the infamous “range anxiety” 100 miles – (which really mean 50 miles return)
OR
BP car (in a country where the infrastructure is already in place) which
a) 50% CHEAPER up front (you don’t but the $12,000 battery)
b) able to drive all over the country with no range limitation as every 40 miles there will be a swap station. -?-
BP is taking the BEV from a limited range/limited appeal product into a car which is MORE convenient than an ICE. That is service I am more than happy to pay a little extra in cost per mile for.
If you think about it even with what you call a “scam” of BP, it will still be CHEAPER than the current ICE. Because oil is going to get more expensive (peak oil) while batteries are only going to get cheaper.
Jul 27th, 2009 (10:51 pm)But I’ve never seen a 2-mode Silverado on the road.
OTOH, lots of people buy Priuses. In addition to the one in my driveway, there are 3 other Prii in my extended family alone, and they’re one of the more popular cars in the midwestern college town where I live. So, I think the number of Priuses on the road adds up to more fuel-savings in real life.
If most of the Silverados sold were the hybrid variety, I’d agree that they would save more fuel… But I just haven’t seen that.
P.S. My brother and his wife traded in their New Beetle for a base-model 2010 Prius. He says it has more power than the Beetle. Also, his wife and 1-month old daughter rode comfortably in the back seat for a 12-hour drive.
+3
Jul 27th, 2009 (10:57 pm)You’re still not getting this. The Prius is a car, not a bumper sticker.
If you’re a hard-core environmentalist, you get rid of your car and ride a bike.
Jul 27th, 2009 (11:23 pm)If the Fusion had a wagon or hatchback form-factor, it would be more attractive to me… Sedans are pretty much out of the running for me, now that I’ve driven around a usefully sized and properly shaped hatchback that isn’t designed to make the owner look poor for a couple of years.
The Fusion sounds like a fully-baked hybrid, though, and I intend to test-drive one.
Jul 27th, 2009 (11:28 pm)Yeah too bad they did the same thing with the Corvette, Suburban, Avalanche. Wow, I can’t believe they continue to invest in such poorly thought out concepts. End of sarcastic rant about expensive vehicles no one respects from GM because the badges have C-H-E-V-Y on them.
Compare them to whatever you want a dream about any badge on the grille you like, these plus the Volt are still in the highline euro and asian price ranges.
Jul 27th, 2009 (11:32 pm)It seems to me that, with a few exceptions, the members of the public who want a transportation-appliance are the ones who own Japanese cars. At least when people in my extended family (including myself) who were looking for transportation appliances ended up with Hondas and Toyotas almost exclusively. (Except for that ^&*#@ 1989 Ford Tempo that I owned)
People who were looking for something else (pickup trucks, minivans, SUVs, sports cars) bought something else.
Jul 27th, 2009 (11:33 pm)Shnaz,
The numbers don’t work. Think about it this way. Let’s start with what you would pay if you bought the car/battery. Say you drive a Volt 10K miles. This means you’d use about 2000 kWh a year in electricity. How much would this cost you? I can get it for $.08 but let’s say you have to pay even $.15. That means during the course of a year it would cost you all of $300 to charge up your Volt.
The question there becomes: How long would it take for PBP to recover the $20,000 it would be fronting you for the battery if it charged you the going rate for electricity? Obviously the answer is never — as a business case it’s a joke. They’d be needing to charge you at least $1.50 a kWh or ten times the going rate, and they’d still never really make a profit.
It’s hard to make a business case for PBP. Heck, it’s even hard to make much of a business case for the utilities, and they have the advantage that every kWh they’d sell would go directly to the bottom line, no incremental costs. In some sense all we’re saying is that EREVs and BEVs don’t pencil out well strictly on dollars and sense basis, which is something I think we all understand. Trying to use financing or leasing to overcome this basic fact just serves to highlight it.
Jul 27th, 2009 (11:35 pm)Convincing Prius drivers to switch will save what 50 to 150 gallons of gas a year? Depends on driving habits. A lot more than that was likely saved when they switched from another car to the Prius!
Huge savings would result from convincing folks to switch from big gas guzzlers to Volts though.
Jul 27th, 2009 (11:56 pm)Noel Park says “All I really wanted was a GM car that was the equal of the Prius.”
—————————————————————
Noel, sorry to tell you this but you are most definitely not going to get your wish. What you’re going to get is a car that kicks serious butt. No comparison between a Prius and a Volt. Nothing against a Prius, it’s a great car and for it did everyone a great service by advancing the tech. But its time has passed. Hybrids may be more sensible — they’ll probably sell a bunch more than EREVs — but they are ever so boring!
FWIW I’d be saying the same thing if we were looking at a Toyota Volt and a GM Prius.
Jul 28th, 2009 (12:04 am)We always knew the Volt would cost more than a Prius, the battery is around 8 times bigger.. the rest of the components are about similar in both cars.
Hopefully GM will have success with the new BAS+ in smaller cars at a reasonable cost.
Nissan/Renault are gearing up manufacturing BEV for Project Better Place very soon, perhaps some of those will trickle into the US. These production intent cars will be demonstrated in about a month.
Jul 28th, 2009 (12:11 am)The way I understand it is as follows. The cost of gasoline per mile (in Europe and Israel) is something like 20 cents a mile. The cost of electricity is 1 cent a mile, 2 cents if using renewable. The cost of financing the battery over its life span comes out to 4 cents a mile. Altogether it will cost BP about 6 cents a mile for the battery + electrons.
Now the business case of BP is they will charge consumers slightly less or around the same as they were already paying for gasoline. That’s where BP makes its margin.
BP has a plan where their car will be a) CHEAPER to buy than an ICE, (10% tax as opposed to 72% tax in Israel) and b) around the same to run as the ICE. c) helping the country get off foreign oil (or climate change if you believe in that)
As far as the viability of BP economically, I think BP economics are better than gasoline. They make a profit on the difference of the 4 cents a mile to the 20 cents a mile equivalent of the gasoline car. But that’s fine with me. Because all the other options on the table, including the volt, are more expensive and out of reach, for most people, to break into.
BP will enable more people to afford electric, thereby displacing more oil.
+1
Jul 28th, 2009 (12:19 am)I’m losing track of all these new introductions.. maybe we need a spreadsheet with all the announcements. I think PBP is about to introduce a production intent Renault to be sold in Israel.. this may be the second BEV in mass production besides the Tesla.
This may be the car:
http://www.engadget.com/2008/05/11/renault-project-better-place-shows-off-new-electric-sedan-prot/
+1
Jul 28th, 2009 (12:24 am)The Hymotion packs are 5kwh, comparable to the 8kwh usable in the Volt. They put the pack in the tire well, you dont lose any trunk space at all.
Jul 28th, 2009 (12:32 am)“However, so is a ‘rent-to’own’ sofa as compared to going down to Sears to buy it outright. The better deal is always going to be the latter.”
——–
That is the same as saying “its cheaper to buy a house cash than get a mortgage and pay some 200% in interest over 30 years. So a mortgage is just a ‘scam’”
Yes, its cheaper to buy a BEV and its $12,000 battery up front and plug in at home for 2 cents a mile. But most people don’t think that way. People look at the upfront cost and when they see an iMIEV Mitsibishi 100 mile range for $40,000 they don’t think “gee, what a bargain”. They think “why should I pay extra for a car that does less?”
BP takes away the upfront cost out of the calculation and thereby lets more people get into the electric drive market thereby displacing more oil.
Jul 28th, 2009 (3:03 am)DSLReports – “Initial Quality…”
Too funny.
RoadAndTrack – “Initial Quality…”
Too funny. By the way, their chart clearly shows Toyota’s overall still beats Ford. Somehow that got overlooked.
DetNews – “According to the RDA Group…”
Too funny. Who are they and why would we care?
You can check the reliability of the Prius here:
http://www.truedelta.com
In a word, “superb.”
Jul 28th, 2009 (3:10 am)$700 billion?
Then the solution is to build better products and export them. The company I work for does that.
Is the Volt, a $40K compact car, exportable? Of course, at 10K/year, what difference does it make if it is exportable.
Maybe we should also do something about oil imports. Reducing our demand enough to cause the price to drop would do a lot for our balance of trade.
To do that, we could wait for a wonder-vehicle that uses less oil to appear in strictly limited quantities in showrooms in 2011, or we could take more significant action today.
I often commute by bike – and often do errands that don’t involve bulky packages by bike, especially on weekends. Of course, I thought about issues related to oil consumption and bought a house very close to where I work, so close that it’s walkable. I could drive a Hummer H1 to work and still use less fuel than most commuters.
Jul 28th, 2009 (3:18 am)Except that the 50mpg post-depletion fuel economy is entirely speculative and looks less likely all the time. The other day, Lauckner declined to be more specific than “Better than 30mpg.” Why didn’t he say, “Better than 40mpg?” Or “at least 50mpg?”
Jul 28th, 2009 (3:22 am)Even if the Volt makes 50mpg after charge depletion (unlikely), 92mpg would be the figure for a trip of about 88 miles. For many people, under many circumstances, the Volt will certainly touch 92.5mpg – and less.
Jul 28th, 2009 (3:26 am)I was just there last week. If we don’t pull our heads from our butts, we’re going to get severe headaches as the Chinese kick our asses.
Attitude and a $40K compact car aren’t going to get us where we need to be.
Jul 28th, 2009 (3:28 am)I disagree. The BAS is not a bad idea, the problem is that it’s too expensive and it suffers from GM’s ADD. For the extra $4K or so that they charge for the car, they should put the 6-speed transmission in it and help it get better fuel economy.
I think the fact that they don’t improve it when they can indicates that they’ve given up on the vehicle.
Jul 28th, 2009 (3:32 am)First, the 2010 Prius wil do 100kph on electric.
Second, CaptJackSparrow, the Prius already does exactly as you describe. The engine does not spin when the vehicle is moving under electric power.
Jul 28th, 2009 (4:54 am)JEC… Maybe it’s better said:
Of the people buying new cars, 80% will spend between $20k and $40k.
The GEM electric vehicle costs about $9k new. The range on battery is about 20 miles per charge and top end is 25mph. A GEM getting 50 miles range at 40 mph would be attractive. GEM falls short in the current configuration.
Comfortable with the idea of spending over $30k on a new car? Not really. Comfortable with spending $35k on an EREV SUV? Yes.
=D~
Jul 28th, 2009 (5:06 am)Interesting to read this after my auto purchase. Drove both Insight and Prius for a test drive on Monday. The Insight was terrible. Seat had too much lumbar, very noisy engine sound during heavy acceleration and you could feel every bump in the road. The Prius was pure luxury and a winner, but a 2009 4 star safety rating caused me concern along with web reports of Prius problems. I had to trade the 1994 Cad Clunker in and chose a Chev HHR for hatchback utility until the VOLT is available. Got $7000 savings over Prius and better performance. While I feel a bit down about not being green, at least the old clunker that consumed large amounts of antifreeze is off the road. The Chevy dealer never had so many sales on a Monday. CARS is causing cars to fly off the lot. Amazing!
Jul 28th, 2009 (5:37 am)How much time does it take to run through a gallon of gas? ( if we are all to add up our reading times)?
In addition, the datastream item “Percent Fuel Remaining” in the tank on autos is pretty accurate.
Recording just the differences of “Percent Fuel Remaining” in a one hour drive (not even a full gallon even), would provide all these posters a much more valid reference for at least the better part of the gallon. Statistical Confidence by most thresholds is 5% of 100%. One or two percent of the distance of the tank is a sample that is statistically not significant to even the 5% error confidence level. (And don’t forget the 9% expansion and contraction to really compromise it all).
I can’t really accept a 92 mpg figure with going just 6.5 miles. It just has to be done better than that.
(Or maybe it was, and the voting thing is the interactive experiment, not the “technical” content of the thread itself the entire situation).
Jul 28th, 2009 (6:00 am)The remaining “Percent Fuel Remaining” datastream percent number needs to be measured the next morning when the fuel cools in both vehicles. If one of them “sequesters” (hides) the “Percent Fuel Remaining” datastream PID, then the datum are inconclusive, even where the “dash” numbers are presented.
Did you know that the PCM controls what you see on the Temperature gauge? It is often wrong by about 20 degrees so that you “do not worry when temporarily higher latent heat is present at hot startups”. That prevents false concerns and unnecessary testing.
I am not entirely convinced that these dashboard fuel economy presentations are always as precise as is displayed, because fuel expansion of up to 9% during a drive on a hot day can and will certainly skew the mpg’s higher.
What will you see the next morning after the fuel cools might help, but the dash mpg’s might not really be as precise as one might hope. But the overall goal of killing carbon is still the main imperative, and, strong credit still goes out to OEM’s for doing that.
Jul 28th, 2009 (7:29 am)How much time do we spend READING THIS? How much time does Lyle devote to the Volt (and us) might be a better question.
Be well,
Tagamet
LJGTVWOTR!!
Jul 28th, 2009 (11:09 am)Mari Yamamoto,
For your information I passed up the opportunity last October to purchase a 2009 Prius in favor of a 2009 Honda Accord EX. For about the same money (the Prius on the lot were all loaded) I got a very good car that rides and drives like a dream. I get 23 – 24 city driving and 32 – 35 highway. Haven’t driven it that much on the highway for any real distances. I am very satisfied with the Accord. I probably would have been satisfied with the Prius, especially a 2010 model. But I do like Honda vehicles much, much better than Toyotas.
Jul 28th, 2009 (11:51 am)I hear you. I just hope that GM (NGM?) survives long enough to reap the benefits.
Jul 28th, 2009 (12:01 pm)Again the Volt fans comparing a fully loaded (every single bell and whistle available) Prius to a stripped down base model Volt where they’re assuming the price will be $32,500 if you could possibly get it for that cheap now that they plan on selling them on ebaymotors.com. Compare the stripped down Volt with the stripped down Prius and it’s a $10,000 price difference minimum. Thats nothing to sneeze at and even the Prius is way over priced compared to most comperable 4 cylinder cars. GM is just too far behind the times still. I’m getting 51.2MPG average with my Prius while everyone is waiting another few years for the Volt I’m doing whats needed now. I’ll wait for GM to come out with the 3rd generation Volt where it’s less then $25,000 and been proven then I’ll be the first in line fighting for one!
Jul 28th, 2009 (1:34 pm)Well said, Zip.
Jul 28th, 2009 (8:26 pm)Hi! Nice to see you again.
I agree that making great products that we can export is the best way to get rid of our trade deficit. Unfortunately, that’s a lot easier said than done. And US manufacturing is dying–and there are a lot of consequences. For one thing, the complete devastation of the US middle class. There was a New York Times article on this subject recently.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/21/business/economy/21manufacture.html?_r=1&scp=2&sq=manufacturing&st=cse
The main problem is that when we do design/manufacture something worth exporting, we usually wind up outsourcing the manufacturing. The US has the highest labor costs in the world, partly because the dollar is the reserve currency. And it’s almost impossible to overcome that. And, unlike other countries, we don’t pay companies to locate their manufacturing here. The states do, but for the most party they don’t have the deep pockets of an actual country.
The only real solution is to drastically reduce the value of the dollar. That will basically make most of us poorer (since my salary is in dollars–I don’t know about yours), and it will drastically raise the cost of borrowing. Which will lead to its own problems. (We need to borrow money to fix our crumbling infrastructure for one thing.) But at this point, I think it’s the best among bad choices.
I agree about reducing our oil use. But that’s not going to eliminate the trade deficit. Not even close. I don’t know the exact figures, but we still have a sizable trade deficit even outside of oil. (The amount we’re spending on oil is down because the price is down. And so is our usage.)
As far as the Volt–it may not lead to enough exports to matter, but it will decrease our imports. And that’s equally important. The only reason the Japanese manufacture cars here rather than Mexico is for public relations purposes. Without Detriot, I’m pretty sure they’d move too.
Jul 28th, 2009 (11:51 pm)At $32,500 (net) for a Volt, I expect Leather seating and other creature comforts.
As a side note, GM and others always had a habit of making cheap cars, look cheap. Start designing some nice looking cheap cars.
Jul 29th, 2009 (4:56 am)Thanks for the link.
And thanks for the welcome; I was vacationing in China for the last couple weeks and was more interested in seeing the sights than arranging for internet access.
Now, when you say, “The US has the highest labor costs in the world,” that is true but only in a limited way. We have some of the highest hourly rates. But what matters is productivity and, when you measure that, we actually have very high productivity. I believe it is almost always more cost-effective to manufacture here.
“As far as the Volt–it may not lead to enough exports to matter, but it will decrease our imports.”
Only in terms of 10K units of cars and a smidgen of oil, both of which benefits are in the distant future. There are two major investment decisions regarding the Volt that we should examine in light of alternatives:
1. GM’s decision to develop the car. GM is bankrupt and should be focussed not on the car but on making money. Development projects with questionable returns have no place in their current situation. What else could GM have done to shore up their competitive position and enhance revenue today? I submit that there are lots of projects. Using the funds to accelerate the Cruze to market would probably be a good thing. The Cruze has the potential to sell well and, if it does and works as promised, has the potential to drive down demand for oil. GM could aim for leadership fuel economy in certain classes of vehicles with a combination of aerodynamic tweaks, accelerated us of DI and accelerated implementation of Variable Displacement / Variable Cylinder Mangement engines (Toyota does not, to the best of my knowledge, have this and they have been slow to get DI onto the market, it’s still restricted to the Lexus line, as far as I know).
A competitive advantage this year would make a different right away.
The situation with the Volt reminds me of the way Wagoner and Lutz decided to pour additional resources into the GMT-900 program to get it onto the market faster and they accelerated it into a market beset with rising gas prices. Those vehicles have never sold very well. It also reminds me of their dogged determination to bring the two-mod hybrid to market as a much-too-expensive option on vehicles (Tahoe, Yukon, Escalade) bought by people who couldn’t care less about fuel economy or the environment or oil imports or anything like that (if they did, they wouldn’t buy SUVs).
2) The government’s decision to support this car with a targeted $7500 tax credit.
First, it’s bad for the government to pick technological solutions. The RE-EV concept may or may not work. Government tax incentives should be aimed more directly at policy goals. If the goal is to reduce greenhouse gasses, the tax credit should be couched in terms of grams/mile CO2. If the aim is to reduce oil consumption, the tax credit should be expressed in terms of fuel economy. This allows manufacturers to experiment with a wide range of options and build the best car they can, rather than build a car that meets government specifications and which the public may not want.
Second, in achieving policy goals (emissions or oil consumption), is this the best bang for the buck? I don’t believe so. Transport only accounts for a certain percentage of oil use. A broader incentive that discourages oil use or encourages replacements for oil across a broad cross-section of the economy would make more sense.
Of course, simply staging on a large oil tax would accomplish quite a lot, without much in the way of bureacracy or complciation. And an oil tax would not only encourage the development and purchase of very fuel-efficient cars, it would also encourage behavioral changes and there would be instant effect from that. Put a $1/gallon tax on gas and you will suddenly find that people immediately switch to carpools and busses and oil imports and GHG emissions start to drop at once. There will be no waiting 2 to 4 years for manufacturers to develop new cars before we realize oil consumption reductions; the effects are immediate.
Jul 29th, 2009 (9:23 pm)I’ve always wanted to go to China. It sounds amazing. And I complely agree about not spending your vacation time here.
. When I went to Turkey a couple months ago, I didn’t log on either.
It is more expensive to manufacture stuff here regardless of capital expenditure. If it’s cheaper to manufacture stuff here–why do so many American companies manufacture their products abroad? Apple. Microsoft. Garmin. Matel. I could go on…. Most of our vitamins are now made in China. Ditto for things like antibiotics/tylenol/asprin, etc. Then there’s the outsourcing of technical support to India–and I can tell you, I found the American tech support people much better.
I do agree with you about the Volt not making a significant difference to the trade deficit in the immediate future. The Volt’s potential is five years down the line. Just liike the Prius took five years to become profitable. And if GM is to become a viable company, they need to invest in the future.
But my point was that saving GM will make a difference to the trade deficit. If GM failed, the supply chain would have failed, and I believe that would have been the end of auto manufacturing in America. Ford (and obviously Chrysler) would have gone out of business. And the transplants would have used the opportunity to a) increase imports from Japan, and b)move their manufacturing to Mexico. If all the cars we buy were suddenly imports, that would definately increase our trade deficit substantially.
I completely agree with you that we desperately need a carbon tax and a gasoline tax. But we’re having trouble passing a carbon tax. And a gasoline tax is much too politically unpopular to ever actually happen. The general electorate hates it. And then there’s the lobby from the oil companies. It’s never going to happen. Although I really think it should.
Jul 29th, 2009 (11:14 pm)LauraM writes: “Turkey”
You take good vacations! That’s an exotic locale that’s on my list. Mostly because I’d like to see some of the old Roman ruins and places Paul visited.
FYI – China is interesting. The food was not as good as I hoped nor as bad as I feared. However, people are generally not particularly helpful, English signage is limited, the cities are horribly polluted, you are always in a crowd and it’s just generally exhausting to visit there. But worth it.
LauraM writes, “But my point was that saving GM will make a difference to the trade deficit. If GM failed, the supply chain would have failed, and I believe that would have been the end of auto manufacturing in America.”
Well, I agree with you,. mostly. The thing is, though, that the rescue of GM is incomplete without GM attempting to rescue itself. Projects that won’t pay off are not a good element of the GM rescue plan.
I think EVs are a good strategic plan and that they are also inevitable. But we are waiting for affordable batteries. There’s little strategic value in the Volt to GM, the country or anyone else. GM is running on empty and they can’t affod strategic right now, they must focus on the tactical to make money right away (there will be time later to do EVs). So the Volt should be set aside and the development money used for things like:
VCM
DI
A successful Cruze launch
Fuel economy enhancement tweaks
Flexible manufacturing
Those are things that can pay off quickly.
Jul 30th, 2009 (10:37 pm)About Turkey–the Roman ruins are spectacular. If you go, I also highly recommend checking out Cappadocia. They have amazing natural formations that I’ve never seen anywhere else, and some really interesting old churches.
http://www.turkishclass.com/turkey_pictures_gallery_12
I definately agree that GM needs to save GM. There will be no third chances. No matter how much the US economy needs them. And I’m also hoping they’re using development money in all the directions you suggested. Especially flexible manufacturing and fuel economy tweaks. I don’t know anything about VCM or DI, but I’ll take your word for it that they’re worth doing.
But it’s not like they’re in any immediate danger of running out of cash anymore. They can spend development dollars for both the short and long term at this point. Besides, putting aside the Volt would be a complete PR disaster, which they really can’t afford at this point. And I think they need it to help them meet the new cafe standards.
I also agree that the Cruze is an important vehicle for GM. Much more so in the immediate future than the Volt. I think they’re holding back on the launch so that they’ll be able to iron out all the bugs in other less crucial markets. They’re actually emulating Toyota and Honda there. (The Japanese companies generally use the Japanese market to iron out all the bugs in a new car before it arrives in the US.)
Aug 3rd, 2009 (9:45 pm)One with 2 seats and a top that goes down would be nice. Not everyone wants or needs a sedan.