In late June, GM completed the production of its first true to form Chevy Volt prototypes called integration vehicles. We were given a brief video description of what it was like to drive one by the car’s chief engineer Andrew Farah.
GM granted an interview with Farah to Automotive News who got some new nitty gritty details.
Farah was asked what it was like to step on the accelerator while the engine generator was running. “You get immediate response from the foot pedal,” he says. “Because the Volt is always driven electrically, you don’t even notice the difference there.” He also explained for the first time that at that point “the gasoline engine’s rpms then follow.”
Farah noted that because the engine isn’t directly connected to the foot, “it is one of the things we continue to tune.” He said “there is an expectation of what happens when you put your accelerator to the floor in the way the car sounds and feels. We’ve got the feel.”
“We’ve got the feel of a sports car,” he said. “The sound part and the way the engine plays into that perception is one of the areas we have to work on.”
Asked about vibration, noise, and harshness Farah said “we still have some work to do,” but that during his ride he was “very pleased with the first steps.”
“It was great,” he added.
Farah noted that the team is using “liquid applied sound deadener” and that in the front of the dash and glass there is “packaged-in sound suppression items,” that are also being tuned to perfection.
Farah says that during EV driving he is not aiming for the car to be “Cadillac library quiet,” because it might be “disconcerting” to drivers. He is focused on minimizing wind noise and conducted road noise.
He said transition from computer model to real car went very well although not absolutely perfect. He noted the team had a minor “interference with the instrument panel that we didn’t expect.” But that was corrected and “off we went.”
Asked if the car feels heavy because of the battery at its center, Farah said there are advantages and disadvantages to it. An advantage he explains is that the battery “lowers the center of gravity of the car” which is good from a handling perspective. However, he added the weight is not without detriments, but that his team is “taking the best of the advantages.”
In terms of what work lies ahead at this point Farah said “This is really just the beginning of all the final tuning. We are at the 50 percent point. Fundamentally, we’ve got everything directionally correct, but now we’ve got all the tuning yet to do.”
Source (Automotive News)
This entry was posted on Monday, July 6th, 2009 at 8:44 pm and is filed under Prototypes, Test drive. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed. Both comments and pings are currently closed.
+3
Jul 6th, 2009 (8:52 pm)I can’t wait to see what it’s like when the ICE starts up.
We should also remember that software updates will be possible after the car is purchased so that the “feel” can improve over time. I’m guessing there will also be more options and even custom settings. Many things are possible with the electrification of the automobile.
Jul 6th, 2009 (8:56 pm)Nice Wheels,
I wonder what the Volt will sound like when you “Blip” the throttle?
Who is in the drivers seat?
Jul 6th, 2009 (8:56 pm)Hey did I win anything?.. I predicted that was how they were going to do it back a couple of weeks ago during the generator fiasco thread. It makes sense, you dont want to weird out the driver.
Jul 6th, 2009 (8:58 pm)Thanks Lyle! That really is the kind of Volt story I enjoy reading about every time. The details that make the experience of owning and driving the first mainstream American made electric car and we have a view to how it is all being accomplished. When the politics are forgotten and the economics seem like a distantly interesting, experience we’ll remember this.
Jul 6th, 2009 (9:01 pm)It sounds like they are making the engine do things it doesn’t need to do like follow the throttle just so people aren’t surprised. I sure hope not.
Maybe it’s just the way he is describing it.
+8
Jul 6th, 2009 (9:05 pm)The more I see this picture the more I love the looks of this car!
Todd
Jul 6th, 2009 (9:06 pm)It does not have to follow the foot pedal exactly, just go up when the driver steps on it, and falls back when he slows down.. just so the genset is not racing when you come to a stop sign.
Jul 6th, 2009 (9:07 pm)Sound deadining should be simple. Lots of methods. One thing they should’ve relied on is wind noise….AHAHAHAHAHAH….
The more noise from outside, the less they’ll hear the ICE.
I wouldn’t be surprised if they throttle the ICE according to speed. Why keep the ICE at high rpm if at low speed. Doesn’t really make sense especially if we all know that the genset WILL NOT fully charge the batt pack, just “maintain” a low level of SOC.
jus MHO
Going for a beer now, C yall!
+1
Jul 6th, 2009 (9:11 pm)Why not? Current drain is directly proportional to your accelleration rate, so why not throttle the ICE since it will deliver the energy required to accelerate AND deliver the required energy to maintain freeway speed. If the ICE ran at “several sweet spots” then in many instances it’s going to run in a higher rpm range than it needs to be.
OK now I’m really gonna go getta beer….
/maybe there should be a setting called “ICE tracks Driver…”
-12
Jul 6th, 2009 (9:13 pm)(click to show comment)
+2
Jul 6th, 2009 (9:13 pm)That’s true, you are the man!
But somehow I’m a little disappointed in the decision. Someday that feature may seem like looking back at the first iron buildings and seeing imitations of fancy Victorian era wooden building details, so that people could get used to the technology without being weirded out.
I think the soul of the machine wants to be set free, as some advertiser might some day say!
+1
Jul 6th, 2009 (9:19 pm)Ideally if in fact that the genset is designed to run at one most efficient speed, then I think that should be it. But the truth of the theory is that tunning at that speed all the time is a waste of fuel because it was designed NOT to store the genset energy, just maintain a low SOC. If the genset actually charged the batt pack to a higher SOC, say 80% usable, then this one speed genset would be perfect. But sadly that’s not the case.
Jul 6th, 2009 (9:23 pm)Lyle is that you?
Anyway they have the feel of full throttle, and the sound is being tuned to perfection…
Perfection would be a Bizzarrini designed Lamborghini V12. Which always required tuning. How many people blip the throttle these days. Could I get a wave file for my cellphone?
What type of ring is that? It is Lyle blipping the throttle on a Volt!
+6
Jul 6th, 2009 (9:25 pm)I was thinking more of ICE fires up, then a steady movement up toward the sweet spot. Then maintaining until it’s reached the CDP SOC plus a few percent, then slowly settling or cycling down to the lowest speed, then off again.
Jul 6th, 2009 (9:26 pm)They should do what results in the most efficient throughput and insulate the driver from the ICE. There’s no engine sound in EV mode. Is that going to freak the driver out or lessen the driving experience? Vary the RPM as much as they want but don’t lose any mpg’s.
Jul 6th, 2009 (9:34 pm)Totally agree — I thought the decision was disappointing as well. People who are brave enough to buy an electric car at this point in history are not likely to be “weirded out” by a different noise scenario — in fact, as a driver I’d be looking forward to it as something else to “show off” to my passengers. It’s always something I point out when driving the Prius, when I make the claim that the only ones who don’t like the quiet electric mode are the squirrels in the road.
+2
Jul 6th, 2009 (9:38 pm)It’s not sad but smart they have chosen to not charge the battery to 80% with the genset. I don’t think hat is Arch’s objection. I think he believes, as I do, that they should reaonably maximize ICE efficiency while maintaining their “bring the battery home on empty” philosophy. It seems logical that varying the RPM slowly between several set optiized operating points would be more efficient. This is what GM said they would do around August of last year. Reading the referenced article, I’m concerned but not sure they have departed from this.
+1
Jul 6th, 2009 (9:41 pm)The side shot of the black volt IV kinda reminds me of a Lexus IS09.
+4
Jul 6th, 2009 (9:44 pm)People have to remember that none of us other than Lyle has even seen the car in person. Everything right now is just speculation. Does anyone really think that the current testers of the Volt are going to suggest something that is just weird? No, these are people to and they are going tell the engineers what they do and don’t like, what needs to be changed, and what they feel they can live with, and thus the consumer can live with. Saying that GM is making stupid choices is ignorance talking. Until I can see, touch and drive the car I can’t really say what GM is doing is wrong. I know I like the looks and concept. I would like to have control over how the ICE runs but I doubt that will be available.
What I really am waiting for is to see what aftermarket options will come to market. Do you think anyone will come up with a pull the ICE and drop in an extender battery pack to push the all electric mode to say 150 miles? How about 17″ special light weight low profile tires? Or how about some program change that improves the all electric mode for the style of driving the owner most often does (city – congested, short blocks with stop lights, long blocks with few stop lights…etc). An entire new industry may be starting up at the end of 2010.
+5
Jul 6th, 2009 (9:45 pm)I think our drunken sailor friend has (I’m afraid to say it but…) the most prudent solution yet conceived. Post #5
“/maybe there should be a setting called “ICE tracks Driver…””
Offer the option of “Best Optimum” or what the Capt mentions “ICE tracks Driver…”, make it user selectable. “Best Optimum” can be whatever GM determines to be the most efficient programming.
This sounds like a really simple alteration of the sys programs.
Hat’s off to you Capt.
Jul 6th, 2009 (9:49 pm)Not that I am into writing software code, however the the ICE may proportionally track the the throttle input depending on the state of discharge of the battery. In other words the more discharged the battery the faster the ICE for any given input. As discussed earlier the engine could be more efficient at a given rpm. I doubt at this point there would be a significant difference in mpg. When climbing Pikes Peak the car would eventually slow down as the battery reaches max customer depletion. I know that the point of the Volt is to use plug in electricity, however if I knew I was going to climb the mountain, could I charge the battery from the ICE before the attempt? I would think not, that could be a hack or an Easter Egg though.
I am sure GM will get it right, I just want to choose the color.
Jul 6th, 2009 (10:04 pm)Does anyone know how long it takes to start the car – from a “cold start”? i read in an artical some time back it currently takes 20 seconds for everything to “boot up” before you can start driving, but a few seconds might be shaved off before the car goes on sale. Is this correct?
-5
Jul 6th, 2009 (10:05 pm)Look, the ICU has to go in the future anyway. Why not let me know how to remove it from the get go.
+2
Jul 6th, 2009 (10:06 pm)Why is there all this concern about making the car feel like it has traditional drivetrain? The whole concept of what noises should accompany acceleration is just based on our experiences with ICE technology. If EVs had been first we’d have different expectations. This is engineering being put to waste.
+6
Jul 6th, 2009 (10:24 pm)Thanks for the article update Lyle. Nice to see the maturations unfold in front of us. Nothing is going to be perfect in this stage, but so far it seems like the issues are of a less critical nature. So it seems all good to me.
I’m not exactly sure how to interpret the engine response to the gas pedal, the Automotive News source article really leaves it open to some interpretation.
It could be that GM has tuned the engine to the driver’s expectation, but it seems like the article is saying that the response of the car itself is tuned to the driver’s expectation from a ICE vehicle (and not necessarily the engine), that the engine RPMs adjust in line with the demand of the driver post hence.
/I think a test drive is in order for you soon to give us the ‘scoop’
(=
Jul 6th, 2009 (10:30 pm)This is all contradictory as well. Farah says that they’re using liquid sound deadeners, but they don’t want it to be “Cadillac library quiet” in EV mode? I’m sorry? Are Cadillacs the quietest thing in the world, quieter than an EV? They’re making it quiet but they want it to be quiet? WHATT???
Jul 6th, 2009 (10:44 pm)Why not release 500 of these into the wild and ahem integrate them. See what real people think and implement what they feed back to you. What if 90% of the 500 people do not give a damn about the noise/sound and would trade the buzz for a $5,000 cost savings you may be wasting on fine tuning something not need of the extra effort. Think spartan think simple. Time is not on your side.
+1
Jul 6th, 2009 (10:48 pm)I think what they need to do now is get as many people as possible that have not even heard of or care about the Volt to drive these IVers right now to get real feedback. The problem I see is engineers chasing problems and ideals that they perceive and latch on to, all the while not realizing that they are in a bubble. In other words, they don’t realize that they are so close to the creation that they can not be impartial or 100% useful critics of this car. People with a blank opinion of the Volt program are needed now to help with issues like this ICE engine noise problem and the way the car behaves on a day to day basis. Wait too long and the queses and second queses are set in stone.
+3
Jul 6th, 2009 (10:49 pm)I believe that GM will endeavor to keep the ICE operating at its most efficient point most of the time.
See this link for info on operating efficiency or BSFC (brake specific fuel consumption) for ICE’s.
http://autospeed.com/cms/title_Brake-Specific-Fuel-Consumption/A_110216/article.html
After reading the article, you will understand that GM will likely operate the ICE at full throttle most of the time (except maybe at idle).
Now look at the first curve, and let’s assume the Volt’s ICE is similar (except for power developed by Volt’s engine about 1/4 of values shown) for discussion purposes. To provide power, the ICE might have 4 engine setpoints, 1500 rpm, 2000 rpm, 3000 rpm, and 4500 rpm.
For a light acceleration, the ICE would ramp up to 1500 rpm to provide power with reasonable efficiency. For moderate power draw like highway cruising, it might go to 2000 rpm with best efficiency. For passing on the highway, it could go to 3000 rpm and again have good efficiency. For rapid accelerations or climbing Pike’s Peak, the engine could ramp up to 4500 rpm to supply the 53 kW of power, with not so good efficiency.
So the software protocol could be to ramp up to the required power level with user demand (stomping the “gas” pedal), and ramp down with less demand. It also could determine average power draw versus actual power generation, and ramp down to 1500 rpm at highway speeds, for instance, to keep the battery at or near 30% SOC.
So GM will not only need to provide just average power, but will try to supply it when it feels “natural” for the driver. I’m sure this just complicates the software.
Jul 6th, 2009 (11:36 pm)Since it’s just software, maybe they’ll give drivers the option. I’d like to see GM do something completely different, and allow drivers to have the option to seriously customize the car behavior.
Obviously, you want to put limits on what can be adjusted, and how far (for instance, setting the engine to always run at maximum RPM seems a bit far fetched), but it would be nice to be able to create a complete profile for the primary driver– since they’re talking keyless entry, I assume there’s already a unique ID assigned to the “key”.
+2
Jul 6th, 2009 (11:39 pm)That depends– In an ideal universe, they use a dedicated HCCI or some such engine that runs incredibly efficient at one RPM. Since they’re using a production engine from another car that’s already been designed to run at many different RPM ranges efficiently, why not take advantage of the engine?
First generation Volt won’t be perfect. Second generation won’t be either. But the third? That generation will stand. Unless it catches fire, falls over, THEN sinks into the swamp.
+1
Jul 6th, 2009 (11:43 pm)If I recall, there are two issues that can mitigate the start up. First, as I understand, the 20 seconds is essentially determining the condition of the batteries, and initiating heating or cooling as needed. Probably a lot of self-diagnostics at the same time.
BUT…
You’re supposed to be able to schedule the warm up time– so you can tell the car “I usually leave at 7:45 am”, and few minutes before 7:45, the car “wakes up”, goes through it’s POST sequence, and is ready to ride (including cabin temperature) by 7:45.
The other is that the keyless entry system is also supposed to initiate the warm-up, although I’m a bit hesitant on this one, as I don’t want the car getting ready to go somewhere every time I pass within 10 feet of it.
+1
Jul 6th, 2009 (11:44 pm)The first generation of any technology resembles that which we are familiar with. The early cars looked like a horse and buggy (without the horse). Early planes looked like kits and gliders.
Also see Jeremy Clarkson’s complaint about the CVT in the Insight, where he bemoaned that it felt like a clutch slipping horribly.
+1
Jul 7th, 2009 (12:24 am)When my sister worked for GM, she complained that they’d work for months on soundproofing the passenger compartment, then some edict from some marketing executive would come down about how all dashboards needed to have a [insert trendy whatever], requiring them to tear out all their work to accomodate it. Then they’d run out of time or budget, and the car would ship with a rattley, poor-fitting dash.
She quit and changed careers *far* away from cars. She’s much happier now.
P.S. Why too many dealers are bad for GM? Aren’t they independently owned?
+1
Jul 7th, 2009 (12:26 am)Yes indeed. Time is money and all this fine tuning to just make sure ignoramuses and soccer moms aren’t confused by the Volt is a waste.
+2
Jul 7th, 2009 (12:31 am)So… if the driver wants “engine response” when the throttle is opened, will the driver be confused and let down for the first 40 miles during battery-only operation where the engine doesn’e een come on at all?
Or maybe the engine should *always* race when the driver floors itm even during the first xx miles of battery-only?
Down this path lies madness.
+1
Jul 7th, 2009 (12:40 am)I’m disappointed as well. As I’ve mentioned before, let the E-REV be an E-REV and don’t try to make it a standard ICE vehicle. GM seems to think we want to drive a standard car, but if we did we wouldn’t be willing to pay a premium to drive something different.
People are more adaptable than GM thinks they are. Or maybe they just don’t get exactly how weird the coasties are.
+4
Jul 7th, 2009 (12:46 am)“P.S. Why too many dealers are bad for GM? Aren’t they independently owned?”
Fewer dealers means that each dealer is more profitable and has more stock on hand. The first means you get more advertising; the second means a customer has more choices.
+5
Jul 7th, 2009 (12:57 am)OMG. It’s heartening to see a few rays of cautious optimism shine through that canopy of caustic cynicism. Are you now willing to concede GM is roughly on schedule with the Volt and/or you don’t have to be a crazed fanboy to believe the car will show up in late 2010?
Agree that the next round of test drives with the ICE on should be most interesting. Hopefully Lyle will get a good spot on that list.
+1
Jul 7th, 2009 (1:12 am)I hope GM has someone with a good sense of business balance running the Volt program. Optimizing a Chevy to perfection is not good business (a Bugatti, ok). It would be easy to give in to the engineers and spend too much time and money trying to optimize the parts too much, just as it would be easy to give in to the accountants who want to minimize the cost too much. This car is about many things, but most importantly by far, IMO, is the no-gas driving part. Secondly, it’s about timing–the sooner GM offers the car for sale, the better. If GM falls behind the coming electric car tsunami, it’s eventual liquidation bankruptcy for them.
-1
Jul 7th, 2009 (1:15 am)Thanks! (Sorry I hit the -1 button, I meant to hit the +1. Second time I’ve done that…)
-3
Jul 7th, 2009 (1:20 am)Previous photos looked good – the one pictured here kinda looks like a Prius that somebody stepped on.
Jul 7th, 2009 (1:21 am)The driver in the photo is Andrew Farah.
Jul 7th, 2009 (1:57 am)Hi. What’s this about not making the Volt ‘Cadillac library’ quiet, because it’s ‘disconcerting’? I’d like it disconcertingly quiet! … for more of a luxury feel.
This is a long shot, but maybe GM can make the noise level *variable*, so the base model can have a little noise, but the nicer model has a bit of modular sound deadening added (and is even quieter), so those of us who want silence can have it, and those who don’t can hear sound if they want. A silent Volt for me please GM!
+3
Jul 7th, 2009 (2:16 am)After reading the postings here I sure am glad that Automotive Engineers are the ones “responsible” for the execution of the vehicles design and not the Volt .com bloggers .
It sure would be one messed up car if GM were to try to put this advanced technology together the way some boy hot rodders want it .
I wonder , do you think that GM is going to listen to your childish ideas .
It makes common sense that the engine will go faster as you drive faster and slows down when you slow down .
It doesn’t mean that the engine will scream when you hit the floor , it means that the engine will go faster as the vehicle goes faster , go slower when the car goes slower and stop completely when the car is stopped , come on boys grow up and be real . This car is not being built for you , it is being built for the global technological advancement and development of the modern automobile .
+3
Jul 7th, 2009 (3:27 am)How about a switch for engine behaviour? Just like those switches for your automatic gearbox.
I’m thinking of an economy mode, where the engine alway runs on ideal speeds and one “donkey”-mode, where the engine howls when you lower your foot…
Of course the goal will be, to never use the gas engine
(Sorry if I don’t use the right words – I’m German, but I think you get the point…)
-3
Jul 7th, 2009 (3:40 am)Agreed, Justin DT. (Apparently, despite the government’s best efforts, there are still idiots like Farah at GM).
WHY NOT CADILLAC QUIET? It’s an electric ear, for christ’s sake. Let me be quite clear on this…
I – don’t – want – to – hear – the – ICE – at – all. Got that, Farah?
The Volt is NOT a sports car. The “sports car” Volt died early on, in the wind tunnel tests. What we have now is an econobox, “save the world”, supergreen Volt. I will repeat for the mentally challenged (and Farah) – the Volt is NOT a sports car.
So stop trying to make the Volt into something it is not. What is Farah thinking – is he trying to justify the Volt’s price tag by making the Volt “sexy”? The Volt is supposed to be quiet. The ICE should be as quiet as current technology can make it. Having the ICE roar to life when you least expect it – THAT’S disconcerting ! Whatever happened to the idea of slowing increasing the ICE’s RPM’s slowly, so the engine would not “roar” to life ? How about active noise cancellation ?
It seems to me that GM is still deciding where they want to go with the Volt. Will it be a bold new moonshot, taking cars into the realm of silent propulsion (new GM), or will it be more of the same old “roar of the engines” we have been stuck with for the past century (old GM) ? Time will tell.
Jul 7th, 2009 (3:45 am)Why? Any engineering or “other commo sense” reasons you know of why you believe the engine rpms must be tied to speed (other than “Same as it ever was…same as it ever was…)?
Jul 7th, 2009 (3:58 am)Here! Here!
Or at least they could tell us if it using an Atkinson cycle. Everyone, accept Carcus1 of course (low blow, I know), already thinks this anyway so they really wouldn’t be giving anything away,
Non-accessory power draw at 60mph, level ground, no wind?
Jul 7th, 2009 (4:32 am)I sometimes drive the company GEM EV. Besides minor tire to road noise all that is heard is the electric motor rev sound. It is relaxing to be free of having to listen to a gasoline engine at all. BTW: I haven’t pumped any gasoline into the GEM yet. Has 3600 miles on it. Been to a gas station just once. This was to help a guy who had run out of gasoline.
=D~
Jul 7th, 2009 (5:43 am)For myself I’d rather the engine just go at the sweet spots so that I get the best MPG possible out of the car. As for my mother in law, I could see her crash the car into a tree thinking the accelerator got stuck. Even for her though a few weeks (maybe months) of practice and I’m sure that feeling of STOP NOW AT ALL COSTS OR I’LL DIE would subside.
How about giving us the option then
Jul 7th, 2009 (6:02 am)“Since it’s just software, maybe they’ll give drivers the option. I’d like to see GM do something completely different, and allow drivers to have the option to seriously customize the car behavior.”
There may be some danger of suits by startled drivers but you have a good idea there.
+2
Jul 7th, 2009 (6:06 am)“For myself I’d rather the engine just go at the sweet spots so that I get the best MPG possible out of the car”
It could still use the sweet spots, it would just drift slowly to them. The key for NGM is for the thottle to go down when you lift your foot from the go pedal (not called the gas pedal anymore).
Jul 7th, 2009 (6:12 am)“Why not? Current drain is directly proportional to your accelleration rate, so why not throttle the ICE since it will deliver the energy required to accelerate AND deliver the required energy to maintain freeway speed”
For economy, the computer knows the best throttle and generator power output settings, the sweet spots.. in addition it “listens” to your foot on the go-pedal to give you the illusion you are in control. You want to be in control right?… you did spend a lot of money on the car
The car wants to make you happy, but it really knows best how to do the job.
Remember the days when the only transistors in a car were in the radio?
+4
Jul 7th, 2009 (6:25 am)“In an ideal universe, they use a dedicated HCCI or some such engine that runs incredibly efficient at one RPM. Since they’re using a production engine from another car that’s already been designed to run at many different RPM ranges efficiently, why not take advantage of the engine?”
It really does not make sense to worry too much about the genset, it will seldom be used by most people. I bet there will be a large portion of Volt owners that will never have the genset turn on for several months.
GM did the best thing by using that genset. Apparently smart people are in charge.
Perhaps for marketing reasons you want a genset that will give 90 mpg or more, and thats fine.. but it will cost you.
In any case GM should have several different gensets in the parts bin for future Voltec cars, and maybe just offer them as options.. including the option of no genset at all.
-2
Jul 7th, 2009 (6:29 am)Man…I just wish I could see things the way you do…
+5
Jul 7th, 2009 (6:32 am)I’m a geek, I want the full 20 second start up sequence.. and I want the computer telling me about it step-by-step in a sexy womans voice..
+2
Jul 7th, 2009 (6:32 am)Don, LOL ! I agree ! I guess this is what the dark side of the moon looks like ! I’ll bet someone at GM has the post above on their cubicle wall !
Jul 7th, 2009 (6:39 am)A Lexus?….really?…wow…about the only thing that the Volt resembles a Lexus IS09 is the price point…it looks like a Civic to me.
sorry, I dont know why I’m so negative about the looks of this car — that isnt what its about.
Jul 7th, 2009 (6:40 am)I’ve seen it in person (NY Auto Show)…didnt get to touch it though…
-4
Jul 7th, 2009 (6:45 am)Agreed….except for the “previous photos looked good” part….
(man, I need more coffee – I’m in a mood this AM)
+2
Jul 7th, 2009 (6:56 am)I am kind of on the fence about this issue.
I can see the point of having just a few sweet spots in engine RPM’s for the most efficiency. That is fine for me.
But I can also see the idea of having the engine also respond to driving speed, especially when stopped. My wife would be scared to death if she was at a stop sign, but she could hear the engine at some really high RPM. She would be afraid to lift her foot off of the brake pedal.
Most of the time, we would be running under battery power, so this is a moot point. But I think that “getting it right” for the ICE is time well spent. And I am sure that GM has had other GM employees not in the Volt project try this out and get their opinions.
I guess the “Caddy library quiet” version will be saved for the Converj……
NPNS
Jul 7th, 2009 (6:57 am)You are of course correct about any diffinitive conclusions about design and engineering specifics without knowing all of the facts but speak now or forever hold your peace. Soon from now Gen1 of the Volt will be locked in and not much will change unitl Gen2. If you’ve been following this blog, you know GM does as well. We may never know if there were any material changes to design based on what was said here but no person or company is above mistakes. Just look at the Aztek, great concept but terrible execution. Besides a lot of decisions are 50/50 choices and GM may be using input they see here to help them decide. They have asked here for input on some specifics in the past.
-1
Jul 7th, 2009 (7:09 am)Mr Farah, I want my Volt to be as efficient as possible, so the ICE should reflect this. If I wanted the engine to follow the accelerator I would save money and buy a Prius.
I expect form to follow function.
/What ever happened to the black wheels?
+1
Jul 7th, 2009 (7:11 am)Are you saying that the Volt should not have Dual Exhaust with large chrome tips and a deep throaty growl for an exhaust tone??
+2
Jul 7th, 2009 (7:15 am)Wouldn’t it be cool if you could download characteristics-options on a jump drive to transfer over to your Volt? As you got used to various “past operational characteristics” designed to “segway” your experience “out of ICE”, more efficient operational characteristics might be down loadable, or even OEM stock- resident in a characteristics-library displayed on the dash screen that you could just switch over to when you are ready or want to try the higher efficiency characteristics.
Jul 7th, 2009 (7:17 am)From the article: “Farah says that during EV driving he is not aiming for the car to be “Cadillac library quiet,”
Something to ponder…If they eventually bring out the Cadillac Converj, will the Coverj be allowed to be Cadillac library quiet? I say, make ALL of your cars Cadillac Library Quiet and we will have to find it in our hearts to accept it.
Jul 7th, 2009 (7:19 am)I think that is a great idea!! People picked at random and the only two must haves is a clean drivers license [easily checked by computer and the DMV] and no opinion and as little knowledge of the Volt as is possible. After the short [say 20 min. drive] give a recorded statement of what they liked and did not like.
+2
Jul 7th, 2009 (7:20 am)I agree. I would even say that two rpms are OK but not an infinite range. I want to focus on the electric motor not the ICE. The ice can just be background noise and if it is at a constnat rpm, I can ignore it easier.
I want to ignore the ICE and drive electrically. GMs plan seems to b bring the ICE to the forefront of our attention. This is not good IMHO.
My strategy when B.O. puts me in charge of GM and the VOLT.
I would shoot for one rpm (max efficiency mode) reached in a nice ramp after startup. This would cover the average “base load” driving and this could shut off (ramping down first of course) if the state of charge climbs too high.
If, on traveling up pikes peak carrying my overweight frame, the state of charge drops too low, there could be a “high” rpm mode for these extreme load conditions. The enging could drop back down to normal once the battery state is trending back to normal.
Its an electric car with a generator. Most will be able to live with a generator that runs at one rpm setting. With enough insulation, the engine would not be a noise issue for the driver and the driver can continue to focus on the fun of driving elecrically.
Jul 7th, 2009 (7:24 am)That’s the right stuff, Herm,
The more slowly you are overcoming internal engine inertial, the cleaner and more efficient your use of energy, (gas and electricity). As well, the more slowly you are making changes, the more gently your physical demands are on most systems.
+3
Jul 7th, 2009 (7:29 am)DonC although I’m “with you” about wanting a unique experience, I think that our group is a pretty small subset of the GENERAL driving public. They already “have” us fanatics so I think they need to shoot for the greater population – at least for Version 1.
JMO,
Be well,
Tagamet
LJGTVWOTR!!**********NPNS
+2
Jul 7th, 2009 (7:29 am)It’s easy – put a Prissy next to it! Even though the third edition looks better than the previous two, the Prissy is still an egg. Now if GM could have produced the original design – wow! I understand why this wasn’t do-able but I’d be telling a lie if I said I liked the production version better. Still, the Volt beats the Prissy and the Insult in looks and more important, in functionality.
+1
Jul 7th, 2009 (7:29 am)Farah was asked what it was like to step on the accelerator while the engine generator was running. “You get immediate response from the foot pedal,” he says. “Because the Volt is always driven electrically, you don’t even notice the difference there.” He also explained for the first time that at that point “the gasoline engine’s rpms then follow.”
———————————————————–
Once again Mr Farah reminds us that his goal for the Volt is for it to be indistingusihable from any other car in appearance or performance. I see where they are coming from —- they want to sell to the masses and they are afraid any noticeable difference will scare people away — but the goal itself makes me uncomfortable. I am like Herm, DonC and others above, wishing that the electric car could be seen as special in its own right, emphasizing its differences and advantages, letting its own special personality come out.
-7
Jul 7th, 2009 (7:31 am)Yet another feature of the original design is gone. This is what was meant by “Volt” never actually making it to market.
You’ll get a Volt, but it won’t be that standout vehicle anymore. Instead, it will be practical, affordable, and familiar.
Jul 7th, 2009 (7:32 am)Remember the days when the only transistors in a car were in the radio?
I remember the days when there WAS no radio in the car (unless you were hauling it in the trunk) (g)
Be well,
Tagamet
LJGTVWOTR
Jul 7th, 2009 (7:35 am)Yes Koz, that’s one reason I have some hope that GM get it right – they do seem to be listening to the public and somewhat more from us here. Personally I don’t think the engine needs to change speed as the car is accelerated. The only thing that I think would be good is that at a stop light/sign, if the ICE is running, then it’s not racing. I really think this is what they are going for. There’s no need to run the gen hard while there is no demand. Once the demand comes on, the car gets up to 10 or 15 mph, the gen then picks up speed to supply the needed power. Any changes after that should be for demand and nothing more. I’m keeping my fingers crossed that there won’t be any major mistakes. My fear is that it will be GM’s last if there are. With all the testing that has been going on though, I’m fairly convinced they’ll get a lot of Gen 1 correct right out of the gate.
Jul 7th, 2009 (7:35 am)The reason not to have the ICE follow the throttle is that such a plan, while comfortable and familiar, is inefficient. What one gets out of the ICE is ordinary mpg but not the higher mpg that is possible using the battery as a buffer. With the battery all the ICE has to match is average use. It can do that running at the ICE’s most efficient rpm. Generally that is fairly high rpm, but it depends on how the engine is set up.
Jul 7th, 2009 (7:36 am)I see it like I see the Honda Civic — nice, but not distinctive.
It is today’s mainstream small car appearance.
+2
Jul 7th, 2009 (7:38 am)I think this is a good solution too. We all know that everyone drives differently. Even though the car is set for 78% of the public’s daily driving, GM should not include the operation of the car’s systems to fall into a single category of driver. Today’s electronic transmissions learn from the drivers habits and adjust, why can’t the Volt’s ICE and other systems do the same?
Jul 7th, 2009 (7:40 am)Statik, is it my imagination or are you getting a little mellow lately? Maybe it’s just my Rainbows and Lollipops.
Another test drive would make almost all of us ecstatic though.
Be well,
Tagamet
LJGTVWOTR!!
+1
Jul 7th, 2009 (7:43 am)I bet there will be a large portion of Volt owners that will never have the genset turn on for several months.
—————————————————————
Being completely realistic about it, there’s going to be an even higher portion of Volt owners who rarely plug it in and run mostly in charge-sustaining mode with the ICE. It is just human nature. Many people who buy expensive products right at first are enamored with the concept and the image but not ready to put time into charging, even if it is not much. Certainly there will be enthusiasts, like us, who will charge every time, but the downside of mass market is that the entusiasts are a small minority.
+2
Jul 7th, 2009 (7:44 am)To me saying that it looks like a Civic is not negative, for the Civic is a successful and good looking car. The Civic is not an exotic or distinctive car, but it is a fine car that has a mainstream appearance.
+1
Jul 7th, 2009 (7:45 am)Personaly here is my 2 cents.
the ICE runs only when the battery is at 30%SOC, when you hit the gas, the battery is providing power, and the drain on it is greater, having the rice (r)amp up to maintain a 30% SOC after a small delay to see if it is a short draw makes sense to prolong battery life. under a sustained draw, ramping up the RPM to maintain SOC is desirable.
I do not think they want to mimic an ICE car, but having RPM ramp to an elevetaed sweet spot makes sense.
When I hit the gas, I do not want growl, I want speed and quiet power is fine with me. I remember fondly my 78Grand Prix SJ, 400 Cu.in. 4 barrel. Motor purred, and when the pedal hit the metal, the car just ‘surged’ motor was like “you need more power..no problem” and delivered without a major decibel increase…
+3
Jul 7th, 2009 (7:47 am)This is beginning to sound like 28 mpg in ICE mode. (smile)
+2
Jul 7th, 2009 (7:49 am)How long does it take your laptop to start up? It’s all the same steps, plus a few more (likely overlapped) to get the temperatures right. So it’s going to be fine, unless you are late to work
Jul 7th, 2009 (7:49 am)Because most people aren’t geeks like we are. Otherwise there would be 500,000 not 50,000 people on the waiting list :^)
Jul 7th, 2009 (7:53 am)/What ever happened to the black wheels?
“Vehicle shown with options package” (lol)
Be well,
Tagamet
NPNS
-4
Jul 7th, 2009 (7:53 am)The first time a journalist steps out of the car and says ‘well that’s stupid”, it’ll be changed.
Jul 7th, 2009 (7:54 am)Just guessing, it is likely not an Atkinson cycle. GM is trying to get gen 1 out the door with minimal development beyond the (enormous) amount required for the electric drive. Why add another complication with Atkinson? It can wait for a later generation, maybe with another engine entirely.
+2
Jul 7th, 2009 (7:54 am)Only if all 50K of us are picked :^)
Jul 7th, 2009 (7:56 am)Except that if one is trying to sell to the “masses”, a lot of customers are soccer moms, way more than Volt enthusiasts
Jul 7th, 2009 (7:58 am)After reading the article, you will understand that GM will likely operate the ICE at full throttle most of the time (except maybe at idle).
——————————–
That may have been the original design idea, but when they tried it, the didn’t like it, it seems, and thus no ICE demos. So now the engine has been backed down to a more familiar pattern, one is led to believe.
Jul 7th, 2009 (7:59 am)That is, with fewer dealers prices are higher
+1
Jul 7th, 2009 (8:02 am)Adjustable between left and right side exhaust tones, allowing a little rhythmic rumble, controlled by the ipod.
Jul 7th, 2009 (8:03 am)This car is not being built for you ,
That must be why I have not been getting the calls…..
+1
Jul 7th, 2009 (8:07 am)I am sure that GM will get this car right given all the focus and attention it is getting. I am also sure that they have tried operating the ICE in all the differenct scenarios we are talking about here at GM-VOLT. If GM thinks the best solution is to have the ICE follow the accelerator pedal, then I would bet they think that is the way that makes the car the most enjoyable and easiest to live with on a day to day basis.
I am in the camp that would NOT like the ICE running at an artificially high RPM that would call attention to itself needlessly. Remember, that we are talking about a small four cylinder engine, not a butter smooth BMW V12. The more the engine is at a low RPM, the better. NVH will be an issue otherwise.
+6
Jul 7th, 2009 (8:20 am)Heeh, Don.
And I am sorry to burst that bubble a little bit. I am pleased with the way the program is unfolding, the lack of any significant issues is a testiment to the work being done by the engineers.
I am pleased with the quality of the work…and that has nothing to do with the timing of the project. I reconciled that the Volt is not showing up in late 2010 (in the form of anytype of actual production)…like 2 years ago, I’ve seen nothing to change my mind, or give me a hint that it might be accomplished. Don’t worry though, if I do…I certainly will mention it, lol.
What we have here is GM hitting a mini-internal schedule that they set up for themselves for a job that was in progress, which is a lot different than setting a complete project development/build schedule and hitting it.
This work to get ready for building the prototypes was already in motion, and someone decided to put a timer on it to motivate themselves to get this one item done in a timely fashion. Basically, this is something the engineers themselves could control and not the executive (re: the shot clock)
http://gm-volt.com/2009/03/25/gms-response-to-the-gm-voltcom-first-chevy-volt-to-be-built-post-and-comments/
(Of interest: this is was also the thread I got to be labelled a ‘villain’ by GM…happy to be of service. Darn you Rob Petereson /shakes fists, hehe)
Sidenote: I wasn’t even going to mention this, but…
Technically, the goal coming out of this stage was, “….my goal is by Forth of July to be out driving several of them.” (Andrew Farah), and that although the “first one will take longer to produce…They will then be built at a rate of roughly 10 per week until a total fleet of over 80 is completed”
Well, there wasn’t ‘several’ of them done and driving around on the 4th of July, we had one (if there was several, you can bet they would have been shown)…and I kinda doubt there is going to be 80 done by August 29th, although they still have time for that one…I really didn’t want to mention it, so as not to minimize their accomplishment
http://gm-volt.com/2009/03/25/first-genuine-chevy-volt-integration-vehilce-to-be-completed-by-june-1-2009/
/I assume you have now been ‘disheartened’? You really shouldn’t be…quality is as big a issue as punctuality at this point.
A lot of times people get hung up on me for calling them out on overambitious schedules, pricing, options, specifications, etc. and interpret it that I am just here to be a pain the butt, or that I am always negative…but I am just reacting realistically, or what I interpret to be a realistic assessment of whatever the facts are that are being represented.
If they could have done what they originally represented (and what they continually represented over the first two years…until the last knife hit last september), that would have been one of those most fantastical feats in automotive history. I just didn’t believe it…so almost all my posts had a ‘pfft’ flavor to them.
However, if they can get to market first, with a quality project then that is still a job very well done in my books.
Jul 7th, 2009 (8:20 am)“GM product chief says no delay for plug-in SUV”
See Reuters.com Green Business section.
This may make Nasaman happy, of course if it is a pricey Caddy maybe not.
Jul 7th, 2009 (8:25 am)Personally, I don’t care much how the ICE will behave will driving the car at typical and usual circomstances it shall be designed for. I mostly have loud tunes on.
Personally speaking, the only relevant point for me is the average MPG I can rely on while driving AFTER battery depletion mode exclusively. If engineers can manage it well (50+ MPG?
), I shall give it a go, although it’s a 4 seater car (grrr…).
Can’t wait til Lyle get’s a test drive, and hope he could get some numbers
Cheers
Jul 7th, 2009 (8:27 am)Me too, surely anyone who shells out a $10K plus premium has a clue about it being a different car and expects a different feeling.
However, I can see some benefit to making it seem more normal for those that come after the first 100,000 or so of informed purchasers. That is those that really make this a mass market vehicle. Setting the vehicle up for being more normal, except you don’t have to fill it up more than a couple of times a year has some merit.
+1
Jul 7th, 2009 (8:27 am)The development of the Volt is exciting to watch. It’s hard to believe that the world is just over a year away from the first 10,000 Volts being in the garages of the public.
Looking forward to owning a white Volt in late 2011.
=D~
Jul 7th, 2009 (8:28 am)I did not read the entire thread, so sorry if this is redundant. I did not see where Farah indicated ICE RPM varies with “throttle” position! Rather the car responds to the “throttle” position like a normal car, the feel is the same because you get an immediate response. The electric motor responds to the “throttle” and the car accelerates. No news there.
Then he said “the engine RPMs follow.” To which I ask, follow what and after what sort of time delay, microseconds or hours? We know, or at least I believe we know, that the ICE is governed by several variables. First of course is state of charge, with the SOC above 35% the ICE remains off, even if you put the “throttle” to the floor. Next, for those who believe the ICE operates at discrete RPM levels depending on the SOC (an urban average level, a highway average level, and a maximum output level) the RPMs “follow” the SOC. But this overall behavior is filtered by the “throttle” such that even with a low enough SOC to call for max output, if you stop the car (throttle not depressed and car comes to rest) the ICE RPM either comes to zero or the low -urban average- RPM.
Next, lets say we are driving along with the ICE operating at the low RPM urban average speed, and we turn on to a freeway and depress the accelerator to accelerate to and sustain 70 MPH. Even though the SOC might not call for the highway RPM level, might not the “throttle position/speed of vehicle” input have the ICE “feather up” to the mid RPM level? In other words, if the “demand” (kw being used) is more than the next higher level would produce, then the ICE RPM could closely follow the “throttle” position, and go to the next higher RPM level. Just a thought.
+2
Jul 7th, 2009 (8:29 am)Delighted that this problem is being attended to! I have been harping on this for many months that to entertain the human being with all of it’s various abilities to perceive the environment you must attach a connection to real time. ICE does this in spades. So now a better Fahrvergnugen experience for Das Volt. Thank you for having your head really in the game on this subtle but important element from the beginning and not some generation down the road. Says a great deal, actually. Well done!
Will read what all of you have written later as I have to make way to work in pouring wet stuff, I think it is called rain, here in hot and muggy Houston. I seem to recall a certain bridge that I helped build long ago. Gads!
Carcus1 go check my reply about the Lads.
Regards! OLDHIGGINS
+1
Jul 7th, 2009 (8:46 am)one unique difference on the Volt is that the computer can instantly remove the generator load from the ice, or not.. and change the valve timing and so on independently of the what the wheels need.. and thus precisely controlling the emissions and fuel consumption.. once the ice is divorced from the wheels there is all kinds of tricks you can do.
Jul 7th, 2009 (8:51 am)Nothing to do with the price of cheese (or the topic of the thread), but GM related, and Volt ‘parts bin’ related….so I’ll tuck this down at the bottom, so as not to disturb the content:
Because of the production cuts by GM and Ford, and the total production shutdown of Chrsyler, Lear couldn’t make it’s committments on credit…and filed for banktuptcy today. Of interest, this is the largest part supplier so far to go ‘under’.
http://www.cnbc.com/id/31772749
They had been talking about maybe going C11 for a long time because of, well…no work, however, they do have a ‘plan’ to come out, a pre-packaged deal agreed to by creditors…and the majority of DIP in place already no less. (from Citi and JP Morgan…hrm, I wonder why they agreed to do that? hrm…)
+1
Jul 7th, 2009 (8:51 am)Tagamet, you’re absolutely right. If you want to build a car for the masses, you need to remember that most people are allergic to change. The more usual the car sound and feel – especially if it sounds like a sports car – the better.
I think it’s a sign that GM is dead serious about electric cars this time. They truly intend to ramp up production. Good for us.
Having said that, it would be nice to have the option to customize.
+3
Jul 7th, 2009 (8:55 am)I want to urge Farah’s engineering staff to sound proof the Volt’s cabin to the extent possible. The technology is highly advanced and both passive & active sound deadening materials/devices are inexpensive. For example, a tiny inexpensive microphone/noise-cancelling circuit board could be concealed in the car’s dome light housing. As with noise-cancelling headsets, this circuit could be tuned to virtually eliminate tire/road noise, wind buffeting noise and engine/generator noise.
GM’s long association with Bose engineers should be a leg up for them. Forget “Cadillac or library quiet” —make a sound-proof recording studio the goal!
+2
Jul 7th, 2009 (8:59 am)Here’s my guess at how the ICE will operate (sorry I don’t have time to put into a flowchart):
Level 1
Below 30% SOC, engine starts, runs at idle speed ~ 600 rpm. Output ~ 4 kW. Engine always returns to this speed at vehicle zero speed.
Level 2
If SOC falls below 28%, engine speed increases to ~1500 rpm, 12 kW. This power level is maintained until SOC reaches 35% and engine is shut off, or is ramped higher if SOC continues to fall. If vehicle slows more than a prescribed amount (anticipated stop) or does stop, engine returns to idle.
Level 3
If SOC falls below 26%, engine speed increases to ~2000 rpm, 20 kW. This power level is maintained until SOC reaches 35% and engine is shut off, or is ramped higher if SOC continues to fall. If vehicle slows more than a prescribed amount (anticipated stop) or does stop, engine returns to idle.
Level 4
If SOC falls below 24%, engine speed increases to ~3000 rpm, 35 kW. This power level is maintained until SOC reaches 26% and engine goes to Level 3, or is ramped higher if SOC continues to fall. If vehicle slows more than a prescribed amount (anticipated stop) or does stop, engine returns to idle.
Level 5
If SOC falls below 22%, engine speed increases to ~4500 rpm, 53 kW. This power level is maintained until SOC reaches 24% and engine goes to Level 4. If vehicle slows more than a prescribed amount (anticipated stop) or does stop, engine returns to idle.
I expect best efficiency at Level 2 and Level 3, so these are the preferred points of operation, and the ICE will operate at Level 4 & 5 only when absolutely necessary.
I don’t profess to know these numbers exactly, but am just suggestling how the software may control the ICE, with engine speed always returning to idle at coastdown and at vehicle stop.
+1
Jul 7th, 2009 (9:02 am)The first time I sat in my daughter’s Prius, I waited (and waited) for it to “start up”, but it was “on” already. Looking back on it, it’s funny, but things like “familiar” sound effects related to the engine may be important once they get past the people on our “lunatic fringe” (g).
I’m TOTALLY sold on the idea of a car as quiet as electrons can make it and hope that the engine sounds will only be a memory.
Be well,
Tagamet
LJGTVWOTR!!**********NPNS
Jul 7th, 2009 (9:02 am)I like the sound of that. I don’t need to be “transitioned” to a new paradigm. Just warn me that the ICE will run at the sweet spot when I am stopped and I won’t think something is wrong.
Jul 7th, 2009 (9:09 am)Can’t stop thinking about this. Maybe have a kill switch for the GM passenger to push if nutso gets behind the wheel. also have the car react to a laptop computer held by the GM guy and then limit the test drive to 4-5 miles but the driver experiences BEV and EREV to get a full reaction.
Have 10 of these Volts and locate them in different types of driving conditions. Mountains, desert, big city stop and go, hot and humid south east, Alaska, rolling hills.
I would be most interested in what the Prius owners would say and those who think electric is a golf cart type vehicle.
And I should be one of those uninformed test drivers!!!
-3
Jul 7th, 2009 (9:14 am)Keep the negative votes coming!. They provide confirmation of what some have been saying all along.
Engineering is a balance of tradeoffs. Combine that with the realities of the automotive market, you’ve got a consumer driven vehicle rather than the ideal efficiency design.
Jul 7th, 2009 (9:14 am)“Being completely realistic about it, there’s going to be an even higher portion of Volt owners who rarely plug it in and run mostly in charge-sustaining mode with the ICE”
Lithium cells are stored at half charge, they have the longest life that way. Perhaps the Volt should sense this pattern of use and move the depleted point up to 50%.
+4
Jul 7th, 2009 (9:15 am)If I wanted a sports car sound and throttle bliping I would save some money and buy a camaro or mustang. Mature adults will buy this car. Make it quiet and let flowmaster or magnaflow build exaust for the fart pipe boys………
Jul 7th, 2009 (9:19 am)From the front to end of the rear door, the car looks like my former car, the Saturrn Ion.
It probably has the same electric pwr. steering and electric AC motor too.
+1
Jul 7th, 2009 (9:19 am)“Or how about some program change that improves the all electric mode for the style of driving the owner most often does (city – congested, short blocks with stop lights, long blocks with few stop lights…etc).”
Better yet, use the GPS to customize the mode for where you actually are. Short blocks with stop lights, then through the light and onto the freeway. Likewise with approaching uphill, top of hill, downhill, etc.
Jul 7th, 2009 (9:20 am)Basically, fewer dealers means those dealers have more incentive to invest in their business. Cleaner show rooms. Better customer service, etc. That makes GM look better.
Also, it saves them money in administration and transportation costs.
+4
Jul 7th, 2009 (9:24 am)An excellent & educated guess, Bill! The only thing I want to add is that I think it was Andrew Farah that described the increase/decrease in engine rpms as being “feathered” —and I took “feathered” to mean very gradual or virtually unnoticeable both in sound and in feel. This reasserts the point I raised in #15 above, to “forget ‘Cadillac or library quiet’ & make a sound-proof recording studio the goal” ….so that when the ICE is operating at ANY rpm Volt occupants should be able to “hear a feather drop”!
Jul 7th, 2009 (9:29 am)I’m not a big fan of Toyota or Lexus styling – even though I’ve owned two Toyotas. The only head-turner for me is the Lexus SC two-seater convertible. The Volt is OK, I won’t be at all embarrassed to be driving one in a few years. If you look at the photo above and compare it to the IS photos I see similar lines.
Jul 7th, 2009 (9:34 am)There will be software hacks in the future for just that.. the ice could just be unbolted, the generator would probably stay behind since its integrated into the transaxle. Dont try this with a Prius.
Jul 7th, 2009 (9:35 am)My thoughts exactly (see #31)
Jul 7th, 2009 (9:46 am)Funny that a lot of people are seeing similarities with other cars they’ve owned. I see my 2005 Acura TL on the side view. Sure the TL is much larger and the back is different, but still:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/ed/2004_Acura_TL.jpg
Jul 7th, 2009 (9:47 am)The original design is still in process. You must have meant the “looks” component of the original concept. I’ll get my Volt. It will still be a plug-in with enough AER to drastically reduce my gasoline consumption. To me, the Volt was primarily about the performance, not the appearance. You can still get a standout “appearance” car if that is what you are into. The Camaro looks good. Down the road, a Voltec Camaro?
+1
Jul 7th, 2009 (9:48 am)This is a great suggestion. Not only is a more quiet ride associated with a more expensive sedan, it’s a signature ride for an EV. If you want road you can always open a window! It would be a shame for the engineers to have eliminated the whine in the EV mode and then allow noise back in by not doing the basic things.
+1
Jul 7th, 2009 (9:50 am)You people made a lot of comments about the Engine RPMs. Doesn’t anyone care about the “Feel of a Sports Car?”
I can’t wait for my “practical” sedan to be that much fun to drive.
Jul 7th, 2009 (9:58 am)looking back at the first iron buildings and seeing imitations of fancy Victorian era wooden building details,
——————–
Such an elegant reference. It brings to mind the Crystal Palace, with its hall of steel and glass opening up a new world of building design.
+3
Jul 7th, 2009 (10:00 am)Another great report, Lyle. You just keep on delivering one after the other. Thanks.
Jul 7th, 2009 (10:02 am)The hints are very strong that it is an atkinson cycle:
1. it is an easy conversion, just change the camshafts.
2. 50kw is what an atkinsonized 1.4l 4 cyl gas ice would put out, based on the Toyota example.
Jul 7th, 2009 (10:04 am)good idea.
+1
Jul 7th, 2009 (10:07 am)What is a “liquid sound deadener”?
+2
Jul 7th, 2009 (10:10 am)Yes, they are certainly putting a lot of thought and effort into it and from what they have said they are exploring all angles. I just hope they don’t make a design decision based based on an unwarranted consumer expectation. I agree they will slow down the generator at slow speeds and have said they will stop it at lights. I’m on board with this, especially with the losses associated with extra generator energy being directed through the battery. I’m just hoping that their control logic is wieghted more towards saving gas than minor ICE noise. Either way, there are several parameters the engineers are balancing and since it is control software we are talking about they can always easily tweak it to improve the product (one of the many benefits of EREV).
Jul 7th, 2009 (10:10 am)People demand perfection even in a $12k car.. this is the lesson Japan taught Detroit..
Jul 7th, 2009 (10:11 am)Kind of. Both cars are boring to look at, so yeah, they’re similar.
Jul 7th, 2009 (10:12 am)I really like the idea of a unique software profile for different drivers. I know the wife has a much heavier foot than do I. Maybe encode something on the ignition key to discern who is who rather than forcing drivers to choose their profile.
I think the more “normal” and “ordinary” the Volt seems to it’s driver, the more likely the technology will gain wide acceptance.
We are in the techno-geek age, but in many ways people are still fearful of new things.
“Ooooh. Fire. Bad.”
Jul 7th, 2009 (10:14 am)Donkey mode?.. you mean a very low gear ratio, high torque mode, high engine rpm?..
I guess you could temporarily bypass the temperature sensors on the motor, when you ask Scotty for more power.
Jul 7th, 2009 (10:17 am)It bears a resemblance to other successful, popular cars. You know, there’s only so much tweaking you can do if you want: 4 seats, trunk, front engine, under such-and-such length and weight, etc. The Volt IS a nice car design. It’s well thought through, not like a lot of models by American car companies that couldn’t have been bothered to take precious time away from their SUV development.
I see a resemblance to the Honda Civic (yeah, same parent company as Acura). This is not a problem. It does have it’s own design language, though. It’s not so similar that you’re not going to walk up to one thinking it’s an Acura and put the key in the door accidentally.
It *would* be a problem if it were so ‘out there’ it reminded you of a dud/lemon/unpopular car…
“Aztek.”
Jul 7th, 2009 (10:18 am)1. What horsepower do you think is required to maintain the volt at 70 mph?
2. What is the percentage of efficiency loss that you would account for from ICE to wheels? (i.e. generator efficiency loss, loss through batteries, electronics, traction motor)
Jul 7th, 2009 (10:19 am)Tag, I agree with you on the engine sounds. Just thinking of speeding down a nice country road with no engine sound is exciting all by itself. There will be plenty of road and wind noise. I would be totally surprised if GM were to be able to cancel all that out. If so, so much the better for the driving experience.
+1
Jul 7th, 2009 (10:19 am)The engine does not follow the gas pedal in a Prius, same to a lesser degree in the Insight.. many people complain about it until they get used to it… then they complain about regular cars when they get back into them
Jul 7th, 2009 (10:20 am)(wow, proofreading FAIL)
Jul 7th, 2009 (10:22 am)Just call it the accelerator pedal for future reference.
Jul 7th, 2009 (10:23 am)Agreed.
+1
Jul 7th, 2009 (10:24 am)Now we use styrofoam covered with stucco. I think that’s called devolution.
Jul 7th, 2009 (10:25 am)Yes exactly, at the dawn of the auto age!
Jul 7th, 2009 (10:28 am)Very exciting times we’re in!
Be well,
Tagamet
LJGTVWOTR!!***********NPNS
Jul 7th, 2009 (10:30 am)People DON’T demand perfection, nor will they ever receive it, especially in a mid-priced car. Very good, outstanding, excellent–call it what you will, but perfection is impossible. Trade-offs are inevitable.
+1
Jul 7th, 2009 (10:30 am)Hi Higgins,
No doubt you’re black furred companions will have their noses hanging out of the portholes all the way back.
Always enjoy a good war story. (get to hear them at work occasionally, but from a different “asian conflict”)
+1
Jul 7th, 2009 (10:31 am)I do not understand why the ICE and Genset can not be put into a sound proof box – I have no desire to hear the ICE even if it is going full tilt. I realize that it would take some extra work with intake and exhast mufflers, but they could make the ICE really quite even at high power.
Jul 7th, 2009 (10:31 am)Just show me the car! I think this stuff is silly, but I’m past caring what it sounds like. I have to confess that the photo gives me a bit of pause, but I’m also past caring what it looks like.
Although, I do have to sell it to “She Who Must”. Well, we can’t start that process unitil there is a real car to see. She even has this crazy idea that she has to test drive a car before she buys it. Can you imagine such a thing?
She was pretty OK with the prototype in Santa Monica, but this one looks subtly different. Anyway, it’s the only GM car I’m likely to buy, so:
LJGTVWOTR!! NPNS!
Jul 7th, 2009 (10:32 am)Tall Pete said:
…it would be nice to have the option to customize
BUT first
LJGTVWOTR!!!!!!!! (g)
Jul 7th, 2009 (10:33 am)It is a Chevy after all.
+2
Jul 7th, 2009 (10:36 am)While your somewhat convoluted interpretation of the process — no executive decisions and engineers keeping the process going — is somewhat plausible, you can get to the same place if you simply accept that GM has been saying — that the Volt is a “go” and GM is on schedule. That would be the more simple explanation, and the simpler explanation is usually the best.
As for overambitious schedules and so forth, you need to stop taking everything so literally. Not every stray statement should be treated as a “representation,” especially when those statements are made very early in the process. At the beginning of development optimism runs strong and everything seems possible. Then as the process develops time and cost constraints intrude and trade-offs need to be made.
For example, this is exactly what happened with the price of the Volt. What did Lutz say happened? That the engineers said they couldn’t get to the target price unless they had substantially more time to optimize the car. So the choice was sooner and more expensive or later and less expensive. This is the way it works. It’s not surprising and it certainly shouldn’t be construed as not fulfilling a promise.
+1
Jul 7th, 2009 (10:38 am)Everclear!!!!
AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!
Jul 7th, 2009 (10:41 am)What year is your Saturn and model?
I am looking for an electric AC motor for my EV conversion?
-2
Jul 7th, 2009 (10:42 am)Thats for BMW, we are talking Chevy here.. Go Pedal sounds better.
Jul 7th, 2009 (10:49 am)“Being completely realistic about it, there’s going to be an even higher portion of Volt owners who rarely plug it in…”
_____________
Hopefully a large portion of those buyers will have kids, parents, a wife, girlfriend or even a pet that walks by the car sees, oh it’s not plugged in and plugs the thing in.
+1
Jul 7th, 2009 (10:52 am)would you hear another car honking at you?.. or the siren from an ambulance?..
Jul 7th, 2009 (10:53 am)Somebody said at one time it took 22KW to maintain freeway speed.
22KW / 745.6 = 29.506HP
Where 745.6 is the watt equvalent of 1HP.
Can’t answer #2 though, sorry.
+5
Jul 7th, 2009 (10:56 am)Then the journalist looks up at the gas station sign and sees the $6 per gallon price and says “nevermind”
Jul 7th, 2009 (10:56 am)By the time you have yourself settled and seatbelt fastened 20 seconds will have clicked by anyway.
I don’t see a problem.
Jul 7th, 2009 (10:58 am)(add)
From 30% to 22% SOC (which is also about where I’d guess as low as GM would safely go) is only 1.3 kwh. 1.3 kwh could be gone in less than a minute under heavy use (back to back hard accelerations, hill climbs, high speeds). Now the car would be totally running on ICE power (no battery reserve) and we’re back to a “Sybil” of a car with split/multiple personality.
GM can’t allow this from a safety perspective, which is still why I think they will design the car to “run away” from the 30% SOC and have the generator running harder to get up to the top of the battery SOC (or at least, something higher than 30%) as soon as it kicks into ER mode.
Also, I still think cycling the battery at the lower %SOC’s (i.e. 30% to 22%) is going to put significantly more wear on the battery than if it was cycling up towards the top (i.e. 80% to 72%). (but I’ll admit, battery chemistry could surprise me on this one)
Atkinson cycle is less torque. Again, less torque would be an especially bad thing if there’s not a lot of battery reserve to help the ICE. If they let the ICE maintain the battery at a higher SOC (thus more battery reserve) then maybe you could have an Atkinson, but the point is moot. GM has given no indication of an Atkinson being used.
/ 1. Battery life 2. Acceleration performance 3. Fuel Efficiency 4. Engine noise
This is how I would rank the problems GM is working on . . . even though they’ll only admit to number 4.
Jul 7th, 2009 (10:58 am)Actually Keith, That is exactly what we are talking about. I am suggesting that the automobile NOT be built for me or any other person who expects the feel of an old ICE car. I am suggesting that it be built as a technological advancement and development of the modern auto just as you describe.
I argue that having the RPMs change to make people feel that the accellerator pedal is connected to the ICE is the childish idea if it affects the cars efficiency in any way at all. They spent many weeks in a wind tunnel fretting over drag counts (.001). The question I have is whether the rambling RMP approach is most efficient. If not, then I argue that GM is being childish or treating the buyers as childish. I want a grown up car that maximizes efficiency.
I also argued in another of the posts that what a driver really wants is some type of connection to the driving experience through the actual engine and drive train. Then engine is electric. No matter how quiet it is you will feel some vibration and hear some hum as it goes and as you go faster and slower. When you go faster, it will hum at a higher pitch. This is your connection to the electric motor. For the first 40 miles, you will be in tune with this as you drive.
This is the driving experience that I want and I want it all the time.
Once the ICE kicks on, I want to continue with this feel for the car. I want to hit the pedal and feel the electric motor pull me along. If the ICE has to run, I would argue that it would be better for it to run at one RPM (background noise) that I could learn to tune out so I could continue to focus on my electric driving experience. If the ICE is rambling around at different RPMs, it will screw up the expericence of the electric drive IMO.
If GM is trying to tune the ICE to match the cars performance, I don’t think they will ever get it just right. If it is not just right, it will be awkward and screw up the driving experience that I noted above.
Jul 7th, 2009 (10:59 am)Did you guys see this? Zenn is going public.
Buy some shares of Zenn for $3.50
http://www.emediaworld.com/press_release/release_detail.php?id=627283
Jul 7th, 2009 (10:59 am)IMO it’s the affects on the critical path that will change the scheduled dates. Even though GM’s explanations aren’t very detailed, they have said the critical path has not been affected by their schedule alterations.
Jul 7th, 2009 (11:02 am)You ever owned a Honda?.. only complaint I have is those stupid timing belts.. they should use chains and put up with the noise.
+2
Jul 7th, 2009 (11:02 am)Usually I agree with you Nasaman, but not this time.
There is a point where a car is so quiet as to disconnect the driver from driving. It could become dangerous to have the driver so ‘distant’ from the business of driving.
I AM curious as to why noise is such an issue. I suppose it has to do with the fact that a 4 cyl engine tends to be ‘buzzy’ and could be hard to keep really quiet.
Jul 7th, 2009 (11:05 am)Thick goo used to dampen sound.
Liquids are terrible sound transmitters, so therefore excellent sound deadeners.
I have no idea what the goo is made of though.
Jul 7th, 2009 (11:06 am)// You’d think a lot (most?) of this would be solved with computer simulation. But battery (and generator) performance is going to vary a fair amount depending on temperature and load, so in this instance there just may not be any substitute for the real thing.
+1
Jul 7th, 2009 (11:11 am)Arrr…..matey’s.
Me thinks we’re all in accord that we should hear nothing at all or an rpm feather up/don as we drive.
What say U!!
Where’s me Rum?
Jul 7th, 2009 (11:11 am)Think of your most technophobe friend or family member.
THEY need to feel comfortable with the driving experience.
Jul 7th, 2009 (11:11 am)People demand perfection far more in $12k car than a cutting edge $200k car. The low priced car is seen only as a simple appliance, what could go wrong with an appliance right?
Where is the Volt sitting by those measures?
Jul 7th, 2009 (11:11 am)It was my former car, I traded it for a new Impala. But you can get those electric AC motors from any GM Delta car, Ion, Cobolt, or HHR.
Jul 7th, 2009 (11:12 am)/// Efficiency, temperature, power and other factors will all affect each other and change the parameters and outcomes in a dynamic environment. The complexities here could be high.
Jul 7th, 2009 (11:13 am)Level 6
If SOC falls below 20%, engine speed remains at ~4500 rpm, 53 kW. Vehicle speed and power demand is reduced to match power made by the genset.
+1
Jul 7th, 2009 (11:13 am)The car has an ICE. Maybe you would like a non range extended electric?
Jul 7th, 2009 (11:16 am)I don’t think they’re looking at the problem this way. Rather than having the ICE recharge the batteries I think the idea is to have the ICE supply the average power necessary to power the car and to charge and recharge the battery pack sparingly around the 30% SOC. If this is the case then the ICE would match the demands of the drive cycle rather than the SOC of the battery.
GM has said that at 65 mph on an uphill the genset needs to produce 30 kW and that it needs to produce 8 kW in city driving. If you add in an “in-between” drive cycle then you’d have your Levels 2, 3, and 4. They’ve already said the ICE will stop when the car stops which leaves your Level 1 in limbo.
Jul 7th, 2009 (11:17 am)REPORT: Saturn Vue plug-in replacement SUV on track, GM considering electric city car
http://www.autobloggreen.com/2009/07/07/report-saturn-vue-plug-in-replacement-suv-on-track-gm-consider/
Jul 7th, 2009 (11:19 am)Cool, Thanks!!!
I didn’t know any mfgrs used AC motor drive for their AC. Gonna go do some research now…..
+1
Jul 7th, 2009 (11:22 am)If the occupants couldn’t actually hear the ICE then all the interface issues surrounding the driver needing to have the RPMs match the throttle disappear. That is such a simple and elegant solution I’m assuming they can’t get that result.
Jul 7th, 2009 (11:23 am)k-dawg ~ Would expect the ZENN shares to bounce around $4 for a time. And go lower within a year on news of the debt involved in a ramp up. As competition stiffens, they will be fighting for a piece of the EV market.
I am sticking with cancer diagnosis kits, golf products, metal recycling, clean coal systems, anti aging products, and Mexican construction. Mexican construction is overlooked and doing well.
Callaway golf (ELY) is on sale for just $5. I believe earnings are due out in a week. Their three new products are doing well. Including a new range finder that is on back order. Bought 1000 shares yesterday at $4.82
Think the Volt will look good at the golf course?
=D~
Jul 7th, 2009 (11:24 am)Great article Bill! Very informative.
Jul 7th, 2009 (11:24 am)I pretty much agree. I sure don’t want the ICE to be racing as I slow down for stops. Nor do I want it racing at top speed where a “normal” ICE car would be traveling at 75 – 80 MPH but I am only going 55 or 60. I believe GM understands most of this. They will do what is the best solution. If not, they will suffer the consequences. They will be getting all kinds of actual driving experience feed-back this summer and fall. They will have plenty to work on. Next spring when the real street test cars hit the highways, it will be more like what you will see at the end of 2010. Maybe GM will do a Project Driveway where even some of us “regular” people can drive a Volt for a while. I volunteer for the program and am ready to do my duty.
Jul 7th, 2009 (11:25 am)Generator Losses – Copper,Hysteresis, Eddy Current and Mechanical losses
http://powerelectrical.blogspot.com/2007/03/generator-losses-copperhysteresis-eddy.html
Jul 7th, 2009 (11:29 am)Sounds great except for a few things. I don’t think the GPS system has enough information in its data base to determine the distance between stop signs/lights and where you “intend” to drive. Plus, the programming effort to accomplish this would be tremendous. I just don’t think the tools are there yet to do what you suggest. Let’s just accomplish these things in stages as we learn more about the Volt and its capability and see improvements in the systems to support it.
Jul 7th, 2009 (11:30 am)Interesting article I read in CarandDriver today. It stated that they expected the Volt to go from a 149Hp good feeling drive to a 100hp weakling once the ICE kicked in. Overall the article was positive, but that comment struck me as a big negative if true. Full disclosure, they DID NOT drive the car with the ICE kicked in but only in battery mode. This was in this months edition just released that I received in the mail today.
Hawk
Jul 7th, 2009 (11:32 am)What you are saying is quite true, but don’t underestimate the value of being able to immediately satisfy a customer’s choice. A Toyota dealer might have ten Camry’s on the lot in a variety of colors and options. A small GM dealer might have one Malubu. These days customers expect to get a car they want when they want it, and low volume dealers just can’t satisfy that demand.
Also don’t underestimate the value of advertising. Local advertising has proven to be an effective way to drive traffic, and a larger dealer has more money to spend on local newspaper and cable advertising. Look in your paper and you’ll see the difference between the ink devoted to Toytoa advertising and GM advertising. That difference in ink will translate into a difference in the number of footsteps into dealer showrooms.
Jul 7th, 2009 (11:33 am)Maaan …. I’m looking forward to seeing some more video of the Volt driving around on the streets and on the track. I’d also like to get a professional cameraman in the back seat of the Volt with some good audio/video equipment so we can get an idea of what the driving experience will be like … with the A/C both on and off, the stereo on and off, etc. Maybe (by the end of the year?) the Volt design team will be 95% done with their refinements and Lyle can post a video.
Maybe by the first of next year, GM can have some production intent Volts at a few auto shows. Not TOO many auto shows though. I want GM to do the marketing roll out of the Volt just right. Build up some anticipation like the Volt is a blockbuster summer movie about to be released, etc. Gotta have some mystique and all that. We don’t want to OVER-hype the Volt though. An optimal amount of media coverage and hype is what you want. Apple does this with products like the iPhone that are “coming soon to a theater near you”.
+1
Jul 7th, 2009 (11:34 am)I Completely agree, still don’t understand this fixation with the engine “feeling” right. just let me drive the furthest using the least amount of fuel and i will be happy. If people are so worried about the ICE, just pump engine sounds through the stereo.
Jul 7th, 2009 (11:35 am)Include the effect of Lenz Law and the typical electrical conversion loss of ~5-8% for up/down/regulation of voltage and current as well as controll electronics for senors/monitors.
-2
Jul 7th, 2009 (11:38 am)You must have meant the “looks” component of the original concept.
___________________
Nope.
And with all the countless posts repeatedly pointing out those other aspects, I have to wonder what you meant…
Jul 7th, 2009 (11:39 am)“The other is that the keyless entry system is also supposed to initiate the warm-up, although I’m a bit hesitant on this one, as I don’t want the car getting ready to go somewhere every time I pass within 10 feet of it.”
——————————-
The keyless entry part kinda bothered me for awhile. But upon further consideration I hope GM will only “activate” the car as you are touching the door handle to open the door. I know some higher line cars (the Lexus, I think) uses that logic. If you walk up to the car it senses the “key” but does nothing until you actually touch the door handle with enough pressure to start the door opening process. The car then unlocks the the car automatically and turns off the alarm system. You Lexus owners should chime in here and tell me if I am off base. I am basing this on a friend that owns a Lexus and that is what she says happens. i haven’t actually done that myself.
-1
Jul 7th, 2009 (11:42 am)One more and I’m done.
The problem here is that a series hybrid design just may not “scale” well.
What works on a train, or a submarine, or a bus may not work on a subcompact car.
On a large vehicle, you can upscale the ICE, generator, batteries so that you always have plenty of excess reserve to insure consistent performance. In the Volt’s case you’re constantly battling weight — thus you don’t have the luxury of just adding engine/generator or battery capacity to fill your needs. Everytime you add capacity, you add weight (and cost) and you might find that you’re chasing your tail into an engineering “death spiral”.
Gm full well knows this dillemma. But now they’re stuck with trying to engineer their way out (thanks to Lutz and Lauckner) , and may keep bouncing up against the wall.
If they can’t find a way out between now and Dec 2010, then expect a “punt” and the Volt turns into a BEV.
+1
Jul 7th, 2009 (11:43 am)We can all probably count the number of times on a single finger where a 20 second delay before you could start the car moving would cause a hardship. I don’t see such a delay as being a problem. If GM starts the process as soon as the car “unlocks” the door to let you in, by the time you get seated and strapped into your seat-belt, most of the 20 seconds would be gone. No problem here, as far as I can see.
Jul 7th, 2009 (11:43 am)They obviously did not take in consideration that when the Genset is on, it works in “Concert” with the battery to drive the car. Remember, the battery was designed to deliver 150HP just by itself. That’s 111848W. The Genset is designed to deliver 53KW.
Total Power: 164848W (221.08HP).
Of course you are computer regulated to only 150HP. Sucks but If I can get a hold of the program and the IDE used to make it, i’ll find the limit just as they (PICC) did with the Prius.
+1
Jul 7th, 2009 (11:45 am)Just wait for the future. If you don’t want an ICE in your car there will be plenty of BEV’s offered shortly after the Volt hits the market.
Jul 7th, 2009 (11:45 am)Make all of your decisions before the EESTORE story becomes clear?
/Note to Lyle and staff, I aplologize for not cleaning up my earlier reply in time, My edit function was not working on my screen for some reason.
Jul 7th, 2009 (11:53 am)1. back in the ’70s, econoboxes required 11hp to cruise at 55mph
2. that is hard to calculate, it all depends on the efficiency curve for both motors and inverters. Practical limits for motors is about 95%, but the problem is that you dont get that high an efficiency at all power levels. Lets assume both inverters are about 95% efficient also, and that is generous. Assume the Volt’s motors have been designed to have a peak efficiency at highway cruising speeds of 70mph. So, you just simply multiply all the efficiencies together (because all 4 devices are in series).. 0.95×0.95×0.95×0.95= 0.81
Note that we dont know what kind of generator NGM will use, there are different kinds available.
So total electrical path efficiency is at most 81%, the battery and charger does not come into this since this is when the battery is empty, past 40 miles range.
On the other hand, the Prius has a direct connection from the ice to the wheels at highway speeds (when the motors stop providing torque, but they keep spinning), around 95% efficient due to losses on the gears. The Prius does not really have a transmission in the traditional sense.
So some people think the Prius will get better highway mileage, but perhaps NGM will compensate by fine tuning the sweet spots in the genset, on the other hand there is some suspicion Toyota is already doing ICE fine tuning trickery.. then again some people think Toyota is more concerned about keeping emissions low when/if they fine tune the ICE.. so stay tuned and see how this soap ends.
+2
Jul 7th, 2009 (11:53 am)You are correct. I want the car to be as quiet as GM can make it. Most of us will be playing the radio or CD player anyway. But I still want the car to be quiet so I can enjoy what I want to listen to. That is not the outside wind noise, road noise or a racing ICE. My Honda Accord uses noise cancellation to keep me from hearing the Variable Cylinder Management when car shuts down active cylinders or brings them back on-line. I never notice it unless I see the “ECO” light come on or go off. Of course, I know when the “ECO” light will go off because I am pressing the accelerator down to gain more speed to pass or just to go faster. After a couple of seconds the car shuts of the extra cylinder or two and the light comes back on and my MPG increases. I like it. It is a lot like what GM has been doing for years and finally perfected in the past few years. I drove a GM pickup a couple of years ago that had VCM type system and really liked it.
Jul 7th, 2009 (11:54 am)You are probably correct on both. Geeks and the number on the waiting list.
Jul 7th, 2009 (11:57 am)You almost had that “glowing” comment we were speaking of yesterday. But I think you are correct. And time is coming close for a Lyle report on his driving experience with the new IVer. Let him behind the wheel GM.
-2
Jul 7th, 2009 (11:58 am)Your free to interpret history however you like.
I will continue to evaluate statements as they are made and represented to us. I don’t really feel like dredging up dozens of overstatements or missed deadlines to prove my point.
You are the one that quotes GM as verbatim…until it is proven wrong, then you say, “well…its really loosey goosey” or ‘oops, I don’t really remember,’ or ‘well they made a excuse why…so it is ok now’
Like here, they partially hit a short term goal they just made up 4 months ago, and you extrapolate that to say everything is A-OK on the whole project…AND ask me to, “concede GM is roughly on schedule with the Volt and/or you don’t have to be a crazed fanboy to believe the car will show up in late 2010″
…talk about making a leap of faith. I stand by my statement, and my record. Something you don’t seemingly have to do, because of your rose colored glasses.
I’m sure when they don’t have a Volt in the showroom in november of 2010, you’ll be here saying whatever excuse they have made is perfectly acceptable and “not surprising and it certainly shouldn’t be construed as not fulfilling a promise”
I suggest to you that under you wide scope of lieniency for GM (and yourself) there is practically no circumstance when everything is not perfect fine and acceptable, no failure that can not be explained away.
-1
Jul 7th, 2009 (12:01 pm)OMG, our internet connection is friggin slooooooowwww…….
We’re gonn have to kill all video streaming of the Jackson funeral.
Jul 7th, 2009 (12:02 pm)30 hp was my guess, as well.
Jul 7th, 2009 (12:03 pm)Well, that blew any chance of getting a “glowing” comment sticker. Again, you are on target with your comments. Even if you are wrong, which I kinda doubt, you have some good justifications for your opinions. I find it difficult to dispute your findings.
Jul 7th, 2009 (12:03 pm)or they could buy an aftermarket inductive charger.. just park over a certain spot in your garage and its charging.
Jul 7th, 2009 (12:09 pm)It may be that Statik is like some of the rest of us. He is just getting worn down by all of this. I feel much more mellow on the subject than I did a year ago.
Jul 7th, 2009 (12:12 pm)I don’t see soccer moms rushing to buy one at first anyway. They need a small van to carry kids and gear and they want it to sit up a little higher so they can get a good view of the road. Soccer moms will come to the Voltec system when GM puts it in something like the Orlando concept. That’s my view and I am sticking to it.
Jul 7th, 2009 (12:14 pm)From the article
Farah noted that because the engine isn’t directly connected to the foot, “it is one of the things we continue to tune.” He said “there is an expectation of what happens when you put your accelerator to the floor in the way the car sounds and feels. We’ve got the feel.”
This I don’t need. The feel I understand and appreciate.
But I would rather have my car quieter than a mouse.
Jul 7th, 2009 (12:19 pm)Not a bad idea. That is why I keep saying GM needs a Project Driveway program to lease a hundred of so Volts to people around the country to drive on a day by day basis. Sure, a lot of us on this site should be considered. I know that GM intends letting “plant’ people at the GM proving grounds drive most of these IVers they intend to build this summer. These people will not be engineers, but managers, office workers and union shop workers. That is all well and good, but GM needs to farm a few of them out to some “real’ people and again, I volunteer to be one of the test drivers.
+1
Jul 7th, 2009 (12:24 pm)At this point I sure don’t know what GM is thinking about ICE rpm, but one thing is for certain. It needs to have several rpm levels as you described. If it only had one very high rpm, I would not want to have the car. I could not imagine wanting a car where the IC engine ran at 4500 rpm or higher all the time when on (except at stops where GM has already stated it would be off). A single rpm speed would be a definite turn off for me unless it was at a very low, quiet rpm speed.
Jul 7th, 2009 (12:24 pm)“jdenn” (in a thread above) suggested playing some kind of audio cue through the stereo, and I think that’s actually a pretty good idea. It wouldn’t even have to be a literal ‘engine sound.’ In fact, it would be better for the sound to be something unique.
I recall a rental car with silent electronic turn signals. Some kind of sound-effect had been put in to (very badly) simulate the clicking of the old relay. It was like having the mouth-noise guy from Spaceballs sitting in the passenger seat making the sound, and this came off as pretty lame (kind of like those electronic cameras which make a simulated SLR picture-taking noise).
So maybe some kind of semi-scifi or idealized electric motor noise which could be turned off, if unwanted.
I agree with all who have said that alternative scenarios for EREV behavior out to be downloadable for the geeks among us:
(“by downloading this software, user agrees not to hold GM liable for perceived operational differences which may lead to unsafe driving. User is cautioned to become fully aware of the driving characteristics this patch will impart to the Volt before operating said vehicle on public roads”).
There. Now everybody is legally covered.
Jul 7th, 2009 (12:29 pm)Plus along with what others have said above, GM does have expenses relating to each dealer. They have to supply the dealer with a lot of marketing materials and many other things per each dealer. That cost money and people and people cost money. So the fewer number of dealers, the fewer employees GM needs and the less it has to spend on supplies, etc to dealers. I don’t pretend to know all the cost to GM associated with a dealer, but I would expect it to be fairly high. So, the dealer has to provide high sales to justify the support cost. There are many, many marginal dealers.
Jul 7th, 2009 (12:29 pm)http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/07/090706112904.htm
A Hydrogen power update. It looks like they figured out the metal alloy for solid state storage that would/could require NO Hydrogen gas transport unlike diesel/gasoline. If they are truly a few years away, the Volt EREV design could be obsolete in ~10 years… right as GM can make a profit off of it if they continue to MSRP at a loss.
The side note later in the article is that this metal could be used in batteries and energy storage systems.
Jul 7th, 2009 (12:29 pm)another thing to consider.. both cars have a top speed around 100mph, Prius is 109, Volt is 100.. the Volts does it (or is speced to do it) with a 1.4l ice, the Prius with a 1.8l ice. So the Volt’s efficiency cant be too bad on the hwy. GM probably knows a lot about motors and generators.
Jul 7th, 2009 (12:33 pm)Any Engineer will tell you that an ICE engine has but one sweet spot or small range of rpms, that produces the highest specific fuel economy of operation at a defined load.
For the first time, an ICE is being specifically designed and hopefully tuned to operate at that sweet spot for the vast majority of its running time. Except for ramp-up and ramp down while starting and stopping the ICE, of course. As a consequence, fantastic fuel economy will result.
It is as if all the “hyper-milling” done today and in the past in such exercises by drivers in the “Mobil Fuel Economy Runs”, were all now done by computer control, all the time.
To the degree that GM deviates from the optimum rpm for cosmetic “conventional response” effects is a varying reduction in fuel economy.
But then, whether you obtain 340 or 320 mpge may be largely an academic exercise, were it not necessary to accumulate CAFE credits for more inefficient LDVs, like trucks.
Since CO2 concerns are now nothing but religious dogma of the new Global Warming religion plus taxation cover fro politicians, and nothing more; the real genuine concern is displacing petroleum demand to a level insufficient to wage wars over. Every single VOLT used in place of a conventional auto displace all but 10% of the petroleum demand of the previous vehicle. That plunging demand will free us of dependence and makes the possible contributions of bio-fuels approach the level of irreducible Ground Transport demand, essentially eliminating the need for petroleum use in Ground Transport. Transport is the only remaining really growing market for petroleum; and that complete substitution, to electrons and bio-fuels, will change the energy markets completely.
+3
Jul 7th, 2009 (12:40 pm)At the very least, a GPS mode could warn the on-board systems if the Volt was approaching Pike’s Peak!
Jul 7th, 2009 (12:42 pm)You made a typo and so I corrected it for you….
“This is beginning to sound like 128 mpg in ICE mode. (smile)”
+1
Jul 7th, 2009 (12:44 pm)The more the engine runs the less efficient the Volt is (I think we can all agree on that). I think varying the RPM’s is the most efficient way to do this as any “extra” energy created is wasted because it is not put in to the battery and would cost more to put that in the battery then just plugging in when you get home anyway. If you are driving in town at 25 MPH and the engine is running at 60% and you only need say 30% why waste the gas? I for one was glad to read that the engine RPM will change with the speed you are driving.
Jul 7th, 2009 (12:44 pm)Herm:
“I’m a geek, I want the full 20 second start up sequence.. and I want the computer telling me about it step-by-step in a sexy womans voice..”
Great! Or how about:
“Atomic batteries to power! Turbines to speed!” (as background sound winds upward in pitch)
Jul 7th, 2009 (12:50 pm)Well it really is the underlying question about the whole thing. Will GM, Chrysler, et al, get salable products to market before they run out of money once too often and the Feds close the spigot? Ditto for their suppliers?
And will we have any money to buy those products if and when they finally appear?
All the rest is merely nibbling around the edges.
Jul 7th, 2009 (12:55 pm)Yeah, seems like Zenn has all their eggs in the Eestor basket, and they keep buying more. Someone told me today that a Texas company was looking to buy Zenn, the whole company. I know Eestor is based in Texas.
Jul 7th, 2009 (12:57 pm)Seasoned scientists at EEStore say they’ve created a battery made of glass- and aluminum-coated ceramics that could allow electric motors to completely replace the internal combustion engine. The inventors, erstwhile Xerox PARC and IBMmers, boast about the car’s efficiency, saying it’ll be so cheap it’ll be as if gas costs 45 cents per gallon, will drive 500 miles on nine bucks’ worth of electricity, and needs just five minutes to completely recharge. Plus, the company’s CEO says, “a four-passenger sedan will drive like a Ferrari.”
Huh? Speculating in penny stocks is one thing. Buying stock in glass batteries is flat out scary. I’ll stick with metal recycling.
=D~
Jul 7th, 2009 (12:58 pm)I agree. In general, larger stores have an advantage over smaller stores due to selection. So, consolidation will, hopefully, help with overall sales. (Assuming it doesn’t add too much to driving time to get there, but, hopefully, they have that part mostly worked out in terms of dealer selection.)
As far as advertising–I see Toyota advertising literally everywhere. But I assumed that was due to Toyota’s market share in New York (and their much deeper pockets), and that GM mainly targeted places it’s more successful. But you’re right. If this increases the amount dealers spend on advertising, it will definately help.
I was just adding to your points–not disputing them.
+1
Jul 7th, 2009 (1:00 pm)Leniency is one way to look at it. Another way is to recognize that you’re constructing straw men and then knocking them down. You first choose to interpret a statement in a certain way — even though it’s not obvious that your interpretation is correct — and then you claim that anything that deviates from your interpretation is a failure.
For example, last week you insulted Henderson for saying that sales were somewhat “better than expected” on grounds that the sales were down year over year so he was obviously blowing smoke. Yet it was equally or even more likely he was being completely truthful. To begin with, neither you nor I had any idea of what the expectations were because neither of us were privy to the internal projections, without which it’s impossible to say whether sales were better or worse than projections. However, given the bankruptcy filing, the lack of a financing promotion, and the lack of fleet sales, one could reasonably guess that the expectations weren’t very high. So with some evidence I just took what he said at face value and you, without any evidence, choose not to.
This is not so much a question of being lenient or harsh as it is different ways of dealing with people and the world. I assume someone is being truthful until proven wrong. You assume they’re being untruthful until proven right. (Interestingly enough this skepticism doesn’t extend to people not working for GM, which perhaps is the crux of the matter).
With respect to how to evaluate statements, you are however willing to apply a different standard to what you deem to be meaningless details. For example, people have from time to time criticized your inability to spell, suggesting that if you can’t spell correctly then your point(s) shouldn’t be taken seriously. You laugh this off, and I completely agree that you’re right to do so. Spelling is a meaningless deal, as Veblen made so clear, and it shouldn’t detract from the point being made. Yet when it comes to similar meaningless details — like how many IV cars have been produced by July 4th (does it really matter if it’s one a week early or three or five?) or whether a mule will be ready “by Easter” (does it matter that the mule was ready in April but Easter came at the earliest possible time in March) — you act as though these are huge issues. To me they have the same significance as your spelling. In both cases it’s better to look past the trees in order to see the forest.
Jul 7th, 2009 (1:01 pm)Such is life my friend, such is life. You know, if you only have 1 or 2 “glowing comment” stickers…it makes them more special. (j/k)
Jul 7th, 2009 (1:03 pm)Not to rip on Toyota but this was shocking. Dan Petit.. what do you think about this
http://consumerist.com/5308464/video-toyota-employees-taped-stealing-from-watching-porn-in-customers-truck
Jul 7th, 2009 (1:10 pm)Tag: I’m really not all bad, heeh. If something is good news, or is progressing well in my opinion…I can say it, lol.
N Riley: I will say that I am feeling a little worn down though myself. Two and a half years is a long time to get to here and we have a long ways to go. Also, frequently justifying opinions that I feel are acccurate, but unpopular is getting to be pretty tedious, so unless something really gets under my skin, I find myself not commenting on it…or at least trying to keep it light. (…the last couple threads not withstanding, lol)
+1
Jul 7th, 2009 (1:14 pm)Expect more “Hype Maintenence” from EEStore in the very near future. I’ts been a while since their last one so they need to come out with something….
lol.
Jul 7th, 2009 (1:15 pm)You don’t have to guess. GM has said the genset will have to produce 30 kW or 40 hp for he Volt to go 65 mph slightly uphill. I wouldn’t think you’d need more than 15-20 hp at the wheels to go a constant 65 mph.
Jul 7th, 2009 (1:24 pm)Looks like the wait on any series hybrid data just got a little longer — Fisker just slid it’s production date back 6 to 9 mos on the Karma.
Fisker Says Customers to Get Cars Around May-June 2010.
http://www.greentechmedia.com/green-light/post/fisker-says-customers-to-get-cars-around-may-june-2010/
Jul 7th, 2009 (1:29 pm)Good one.
Jul 7th, 2009 (1:30 pm)I would like to test this myself. It sounds good. Looking forward to a trial.
Jul 7th, 2009 (1:31 pm)I suspect anyone from GM reading this blog today would be really confused as to what people want the Volt to be. I know I am confused. Some of us are just the confused type and others are confused easily. I am not naming names for those confused or easily confused. LOL.
+2
Jul 7th, 2009 (1:32 pm)Another agreement here. Just give me a maximum efficiency mode. I will deal with retraining my brain as necessary. Go ahead and set em for “compatibility” mode off the dealer lot, but give me a menu setting for max efficiency.
+1
Jul 7th, 2009 (1:33 pm)I like the “donkey”-mode where it howls. You don’t have a sound track you could share with us, do you? I haven’t heard a donkey howl in years. Might be interesting to have a car that howled like a donkey. That was a good one Maynard. And you used the right words.
Jul 7th, 2009 (1:36 pm)GM has already stated that the engine would not run at a high speed when coming to a stop. Their intent is to reduce the engine speed as you decrease vehicle speed and turn it off at a stop. I assume that is still the plan. I am sure it is. It would not work with most people otherwise.
+2
Jul 7th, 2009 (1:42 pm)It will sound a lot like a police siren and it will be accompanied with flashing red and blue lights. There is no transmission in this thing, neither standard nor automatic. And it has max torque at 0 rpm. If you blip the throttle, you will launch right through the intersection and promptly get rewarded for running a red light. Just insert an audio CD of a formula 1 race and reminisce to your hearts content. Or get an old Sons of the Pioneers album and listen to hoofbeats. ICE sounds will soon join them on the shelves of history.
+2
Jul 7th, 2009 (1:43 pm)> “Because the Volt is always driven electrically, you don’t even notice the difference there.” He also explained for the first time that at that point “the gasoline engine’s rpms then follow.”
> Farah noted that because the engine isn’t directly connected to the foot, “it is one of the things we continue to tune.” He said “there is an expectation of what happens when you put your accelerator to the floor in the way the car sounds and feels. We’ve got the feel.”
WTF? If the whole thing is always driven electrically, I would expect the engine RPMs to always stay the same (more-or-less), and be tuned to run at the most efficient level. Hearing the engine “roar” just tells me that it’s being inefficient and wasting gas, completely counter to why I would buy this car.
Jul 7th, 2009 (1:45 pm)You ought to see the look on a squirrel’s face when you sneak up on him on an electric scooter. Gives new meaning to the term “electric shock”.
Jul 7th, 2009 (1:48 pm)DonC
What you’re providing me with doesn’t appear to be anything more than a guess. I’ve seen these numbers ran on two or three different spots on the web, and I think I was estimating at the low end with 30hp being required for the volt at 70 mph.
Here’s where somebody worked it out for the tesla roadster , and they came up with 34 hp.
http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/technical-discussion/2040-roadster-efficiency-range-5.html
/hp required increase is not linear with speed, do you have some calculations to reference?
Jul 7th, 2009 (1:53 pm)My solution to the ICE and how the driver/passengers perceive it is for GM to use several rpm levels as needed even if it is only one relatively low rpm speed. Gm knows what they need to do, so let them do it.
GM could add a sound track of internal combustion engine sounds that would track the accelerator pedal. When the driver stomps the pedal, the engine sound track screams with a responding load throaty sound that implies power being applied heavily. As the pedal is reduced the sound diminishes down to a “normal” sound. The owner of the vehicle could select the sound track he would like to use from a sizable list of selections. All the way from a Model T to a 2009 Corvette ZR-1. That way the ICE could do what the engineers need it to do to keep the battery up to the SOC and the driver could receive the proper feed-back sounds.
+1
Jul 7th, 2009 (1:55 pm)OMG ROFLMAO!!!
True enuf.
+1
Jul 7th, 2009 (2:00 pm)The software guys for the Volt should almost *never* have to do a “cold boot”. They will, for instance, keep track of the battery charge history to optimize life and performance. They can keep track of a lot of other information as well so that the Start-Up sequence should be less than 5 seconds. Just enough time to go and checkup on critical items – not re-asses the state of the whole vehicle.
Debug code almost always has a lot of overhead that is not included in the production code.
Jul 7th, 2009 (2:00 pm)I think your suggestions are right on the mark. I don’t know about the exact battery state percentages you placed at each level, but something like that sounds “reasonable”. My only suggestion is that Farrah has already stated the engine would turn off at a stop. Some people want the engine to “idle” while others want it to stop and some don’t care. I don’t know where I fall except I want the best possible use of the fuel it burns when the ICE is on.
Your suggestions seem very workable to me. And they make sense. So what else is wrong with them.
+1
Jul 7th, 2009 (2:01 pm)That level of quietness may prove impossible to achieve. But I am sure you knew that. Perfection is the goal even when you know it can not be achieved. The closer you get to the goal, the better.
Jul 7th, 2009 (2:02 pm)“fart pipe boys”. Good one!
Jul 7th, 2009 (2:09 pm)GM needs to drop the rpm’s (sound) in low speed situations (stop light, inching through a drive through, etc..) That much seems pretty obvious. You don’t want the ICE screaming in what would otherwise be a relatively quiet environment.
But if they are indeed talking about having the rpm’s vary with footfeet input (thus sacrificing efficiency) , . . . . well then that’s something different.
Constant rpm with varying speed will take you all of about 10 seconds to adjust to. I’ve driven lots of machinery that operate this way. It’s not something that you even think about.
Rising or falling rpms that don’t coincide with rising or falling speed??? Well, if it’s not ‘too’ loud, then I don’t think that’ll be something that you can’t adjust to in short order, as well. However, if the sound is pretty loud and dominates the cabin, then you could have some confusion if the variations (rpm changes) are extreme. There will be pitch changes as the engine loads and unloads at constant rpm as well.
/ another reason why having the ICE maintain the battery at something higher than 30% SOC would be a good idea. There would be more cushion for the ICE to maintain a constant RPM (not having to run so hard to “catch up” in certain scenarios)
+1
Jul 7th, 2009 (2:14 pm)I’m with you on that one, Statik. Sometimes I find myself making a reply or comment and after posting it I’d say: “Why did I do that. I should have just kept quiet.”. But that is life, as you say. And, yes, we still have a very long way to go. How are we ever going to manage to keep it up? Just think of poor old Lyle. He’s got to keep feeding us idiots good stories. That has got to be a real problem at times. But, boy, has he been doing a swell job 99.9% of the time.
Edited: Sorry about that Lyle. But, as you probably know, no one is perfect. So, don’t expect to reach 100%. But you are very, very close. In my opinion. And to me, that is the one opinion that really counts.
Jul 7th, 2009 (2:29 pm)I took “liquid applied sound deadener” to mean a sound deadening substance that was applied in a liquid state (ie. sprayed on) — but not necessarily a liquid once applied. That is, a spray-applied coating that dries/cures.
But truthfully, I think these words are just vague to draw a solid conclusion.
+2
Jul 7th, 2009 (2:37 pm)Unfortunately, people are stupid.
First vehicles with CVT (Continuously Variable Transmission) had a great feature – engine RPMs were pretty much constant.
Guess what? People felt that these cars were ‘underpowered’.
Jul 7th, 2009 (2:38 pm)Cheer up, I clicked +1 to offset you
Jul 7th, 2009 (2:41 pm)I don’t think that the Series EREV design has limitations at all in the range of the components selected. I agree that scaling is a question, for the vehicle universe but they are not trying to build a satisfactory heavy duty truck with these components. Averaged generator output is more than sufficient to both drive the car and charge the battery even while climbing Pike’s Peak.
What many here do NOT comprehend, based on their contrary experience with conventional ICE operation, is that output can vary even if rpm does not. If you but look at the BSFC article and you can understand the iso-kWh plots at constant rpm, say so.
You may not be able to achieve maximum nameplate power output at the selected set-point rpm, but you can approach a reasonably high proportion of it.
Jul 7th, 2009 (2:42 pm)We’re all out of rum.
+1
Jul 7th, 2009 (2:48 pm)Take it easy now, Jackson. Don’t get your turbines all wound up too tight.
+1
Jul 7th, 2009 (2:55 pm)Now all they have to do is bring the “fuel cell engine” down in price, to under $300k each… After they figure out the cost of moving all that solid storge about. Oh, and how to make cheap Hydrogen in the first place.
Jul 7th, 2009 (2:56 pm)Well put hommie!
Totally agree.
Can’t add much more to it than…
Yo Hoe Yo Hoe, A Pirates life’s 4 me…….
Jul 7th, 2009 (2:59 pm)“donkey”-mode. OMG, I haven’t laughed that hard in days. *Perfect* post!
+1
Jul 7th, 2009 (3:04 pm)Just add a constant noisemaker that sounds like a high RPM engine. That way you will never know if your engine is on or not. It will also solve the problem of blind people walking around.
2 birds, 1 stone
+5
Jul 7th, 2009 (3:07 pm)But wait!!!!!
All this stuff on making the car quiet on the inside but many are complaining of the quiet outside….
http://www.disabilitynation.net/episode/quiet-cars-and-pedestrian-problem-part-i
And Here…
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-1042151/Lotus-fits-speakers-electric-cars-vroom-silent-engines.html
And Here…
http://www.autobloggreen.com/2007/10/03/u-s-national-federation-of-the-blind-concerned-about-quiet-hybr/
What shall we do!?!?!?!?
=^O
+1
Jul 7th, 2009 (3:07 pm)Hear ! Hear!!
Then they could use those speakers to warn the deaf, dumb, and blind, …er, ahem… sensory -challenged individual, that a silent electric car, or a freight train, or a jetliner, your choice, is approaching.
Actually what I would REALLY do is feed the signal to a low power radio transmitter option on each Volt, that would play through the speakers if the radio is on and tuned to the Volt noise station, user selected; &/or to the ear and vibration plug of any nearby deaf, dumb, and blind sensory-challenged person.
That would leave blissful Sounds of Silence for the rest of us…
-3
Jul 7th, 2009 (3:08 pm)But wait!!!!!
All this stuff on making the car quiet on the inside but many are complaining of the quiet outside….
http://www.disabilitynation.net/episode/quiet-cars-and-pedestrian-problem-part-i
And Here…
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-1042151/Lotus-fits-speakers-electric-cars-vroom-silent-engines.html
And Here…
http://www.groovygreen.com/groove/?p=1962
What shall we do!?!?!?!?
=^O
Jul 7th, 2009 (3:09 pm)Sorry guys, but if DaV8or is correct, none of us, by definition, would qualify. Our depth of knowledge (such as it is) on the subject, and our anticipation concerning what Volt should be would completely skew any perception of what the IV test vehicle actually is (which is what they need to know).
+1
Jul 7th, 2009 (3:17 pm)They need to get rid of that ugly skinny antenna on the hood. It reminds me of a Ford focus. They should put the antenna of the chevy malibu to make it seem more sleek. I also hope that this car comes with onstar, becasue that is one of my favorite features about GM cars. I have it on my maibu and Caddy.
Jul 7th, 2009 (3:18 pm)Nah….
I’m going to tape some playing cards to the rims just like when we were kids on our bikes pretending we wer on a gas powered motorcycle.
AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAA!!!!
Jul 7th, 2009 (3:21 pm)I want my noise maker to sound like nails scratching on a chalkboard…….
Outta my way……skreeeeeeeeeeeeetch…..
Jul 7th, 2009 (3:24 pm)I’m not sure “brave enough” is the accurate description of early adopters. “Stupid enough” is usually what it has meant in the past with respect to PCs, etc, which quickly depreciated. That’s shouldn’t
happen as fast for EVs, barring some major new development.
Jul 7th, 2009 (3:25 pm)Just wait till they “Upgrade” the satelites dude. Then it will be an “On Nuttin”. Just like they did I think last year?
Or they incorporate a new 32b ecncryption that your hardware can’t support in older models.
NO ONSTAR 4 ME!!! That’s the first thing I will disable. It’s their future “Big Brother” in conception.
Jul 7th, 2009 (3:26 pm)Yes. This product will be a big seller for either GM or the third party company that is able to be the first on the market with a quality product. I’ve thought about getting a few other EE buddies together and trying to make this happen, but there are still too many risks right now…
Jul 7th, 2009 (3:35 pm)I think you are right regarding a limited sweet spot for the best fuel economy. However if this is the route taken by the Volt I would think we will end up with a car that will be in ER for a while then back to BEV for a while. I hope I am right as that would most likely result in the highest ER mpg.
Jul 7th, 2009 (3:37 pm)Don’t know but I do hope you are wrong.
Jul 7th, 2009 (3:38 pm)And we’re certainly not in one Accord (don’t be ridiculous, it doesn’t have enough seats!)
john1701a is in a Prius, for Pete’s sake …
-1
Jul 7th, 2009 (3:44 pm)Hey.
Jul 7th, 2009 (3:45 pm)GM does, of course, need to do all they can to deaden the ICE noise. But to go along with your playing card suggestion, it’s not a bad idea, in a way.
They could take a minus and turn it into a plus. Some sort of lit up sliding tachometer scale and a “load” scale — green lights or whatever to let you know how the gen set is operating. Set this gauge off to the side (off center from the driver) so that it’s visually reinforced that this is not your primary mover. This visual could reinforce that what you’re hearing is something new, tech, and unrelated to any car you’ve driven in the past.
Then, have some sort of feedback (digital playing card) that lets you know the electric motor is indeed responding to your foot input. They could put a “trend indicator” like they do on aircraft instrumentation that graphically tells you: you’ve asked for this speed and it’ll take about this long to get there. It could be a blue light indicator that leads the speedometer. The blue light leads the speedometer for a set amount of seconds , say 4 seconds. (i.e. 4 seconds from now you’ll be at this speed). Now, you step on the accelerator and though you may not hear what you’d expect, you see a blue light come out to lead the speedometer in a way that corresponds to your request.
/but then again, I go to star trek conventions.
// still, not kidding about this type of suggestion, lot’s of high end cars have “techy” instrumentation
///maybe GM could “leapfrog” Ford’s “smartgauge” lcd
////as others have suggested, I don’t think GM needs to (or should) “dumb down” everything in the car, they should highlight the tech
Jul 7th, 2009 (3:48 pm)I’ve been tellin’ ya, it’s downloadable car-tones (sorry, didn’t follow the links, just been down this road before).
Jul 7th, 2009 (3:50 pm)…so, will that stop some attorneys from filing anyway?
Jul 7th, 2009 (3:54 pm)Good points.
Jul 7th, 2009 (3:54 pm)/////and by “highlight the tech” I DON’T mean burying it down on page 27 of the MFD. Some of these primary system readouts need to be “artfully displayed” on the dash, again, see Ford’s smartgauge for examples.
-1
Jul 7th, 2009 (3:55 pm)He’s ALIVE!!!!!!!
lol
Jul 7th, 2009 (3:58 pm)shhhhhhhhhhhhh!
Jul 7th, 2009 (4:00 pm)When I first heard the particulars of the Volt, I assumed that the genset would turn at a single, most-efficient speed.
The problem with such an approach now is that it would require either too much cycling for the battery as it buffers greater differences between demand and genset output, or too much on-and-off cycling of a single-speed engine for most drivers’ tastes.
Make no mistake, though; just as soon as battery technology improves to the point where buffering between the single-speed genset and full range of speeds is possible, somebody (perhaps even GM) will build it. There will be much greater efficiencies and mechanical flexibilities to be had.
It all takes time.
Jul 7th, 2009 (4:08 pm)I think a “battery boost” indicator would be enough. Somethings that lets the driver know how far above or below the “Customer Depletion Point Target” the car currently is…IE, Show the driver why the car is running at 3,000 rpm at a stop light and at 1,500 rpm passing on the highway and I think things will be fine
Jul 7th, 2009 (4:08 pm)“It’s their future “Big Brother” in conception.”
… and who is it that now has a controlling interest in GM? I was willing to take OnStar’s ‘Big Brother’ issues with a grain of salt; but now?
/off to adjust tin-foil hat …
-2
Jul 7th, 2009 (4:10 pm)Look at all these straws lying all over the place, lol.
Lets just drop it at this point, at let people make up there own mind (if they care to). I find myself very close to breaking character, and that would be regrettable, for both me and you. We have both said what we want to.
This little ‘thing’ has gotten to the point it is a distraction to the board and the intent of the site. I think it behooves us to just try and keep our distance from each other for a little bit. (imo)
Jul 7th, 2009 (4:18 pm)Keep in mind that if something like EEStor turns out to
1) be for real
2) be cheap enough to use in a car if it is real
…the job of buffering demand to load and the job of storing electric energy from the plug in your garage could be split into two devices: a near-infinitely rechargeable / high energy buffering device and a (probably Lithium Ion) storage battery.
EEStor, particularly, seems based on the properties of microscopic components. It seems likely to me that it will take a bit of time to get the costs down (and scales up) to use in a car. The split devices would be a way of allowing this to happen a lot sooner than if the entire car’s electric storage unit had to be made from it (for EREV40, never mind for BEV100+).
There’s also the matter of making the Lithium storage units last longer, and of having a much lighter, more efficient genset …
-1
Jul 7th, 2009 (4:21 pm)You better quit doggin’ me around.
So long, guys; I think I’m going to
beat it.
Jul 7th, 2009 (4:23 pm)I agree GM needs to highlight the technology available in the Volt. Engine rpm could be shown with a small digital display that is off when the ICE is off. When it is time for the ICE to come on, the computer could signal the driver a second or two early by sounding a tone. The digital display then would light up and show the rpm the engine will obtain or is presently operating at. You could track the rpm movement up or down like we do now with the analog rpm indicators in use today. I am sure GM’s engineers have thought of some of these suggestions. Maybe they have discarded some and used some. Maybe they have a lot of features available we don’t even know about. It will be a real “field day” when those types of features are published so that we can “discuss” them in detail.
Jul 7th, 2009 (4:25 pm)So THAT’s why you always wear one glove.
Jul 7th, 2009 (4:28 pm)“it all takes time”. I agree with that. We can’t wait for it to happen is our problem. Then when it happens, we say “So What!”. Just another “So What!” moment.
Jul 7th, 2009 (4:31 pm)“Interesting article I read in CarandDriver today. It stated that they expected the Volt to go from a 149Hp good feeling drive to a 100hp weakling once the ICE kicked in.”
Hrm. There is the possibility that if your a type of driver who is continually pushing your car to its limit, you will eventually deplete the Volts battery from “Customer Depletion Point” of ~30% to some sort of hard shut off… At that point, with only the generator on, it would be more likely 60-70 hp weakling. Thankfully, this would only be after 10 + miles of 100% engine usage after Customer Depletion point. IE, unlikely to occur outside a track enviroment.
Just don’t get into any car chases in the Volt, not a good idea.
-1
Jul 7th, 2009 (4:42 pm)On behalf of Rebbie, Jackie, Tito, Jermaine, La Toya, Marlon, Randy, Janet, Joh’Vonnie, and any other Jackson family member out there reading GM-volt.com, I’d like to retract that last remark.
Jul 7th, 2009 (4:46 pm)I prefer the “Cadillac library quiet” goal, myself, even if it is not reached in the first generation. Performance is action, not “sound and fury, signifying nothing.” I’ll never want a car designed to sound like it would please Caliban.
\literary references off
+1
Jul 7th, 2009 (4:47 pm)For the EEStore curious…
http://theeestory.com/
Reading a few posts, it gives you the “Area 51″ feel.
/Twilight Zone music palying in the background….
Jul 7th, 2009 (4:48 pm)I will take instant torque over ICE noise any day. Also I would love “Cadillac Library Quiet”. Lets be realistic this car is for young people and green people. Lets do a poll and see how many people care about ICE noise. Ill put money on it that it will be 70/30 in favor of not caring about ICE noise.
Jul 7th, 2009 (4:52 pm)@DG 64
Don’t care about ICE noise here….
Jul 7th, 2009 (5:02 pm)If different engine “sound” themes are planned, then keep those original leased users happy and have an “EV-1″ setting.
I would prefer the CLQ setting to enjoy riding in “Cadillac Library Quiet”.
-1
Jul 7th, 2009 (5:34 pm)I quite like the looks of the Prius! I also like the looks of Star Trek Shuttlecraft, and would happily park one in my driveway.
Oh, and calling it a “prissy” doesn’t make me like the 2004 Prius that’s sitting in my driveway less. The Prius may not be the right car for you, but you can’t argue with 106k miles worth of dependable and efficient service from a daily-driver.
That said, the Volt looks great on its own merits. I want to own one, and I really hope that it makes the Prius in my driveway obsolete. But, until there’s a Volt at my local Chevy dealer, it’s all just hope.
Jul 7th, 2009 (5:37 pm)Somewhat off topic, but, when we want to recharge our Volts overnight, and, you want the lowest cost Wind energy to do that, Pickens Plan has him asking the Senate to hand him over very substantial transmission line corridor rights over vast stretches of private or public properties apparently.
I can’t think of a bigger potential:
1. Giveaway of hundreds of billions in rights to an individual,
2. Energy monopoly that could cut him in for a very large piece of your Volt Wind Energy recharge energy budget, since he would build the transmission lines and own the transmission lines apparently.
That needs to be watched closely it seems to me.
Static, can you help with an analysis on that one?
Here in Austin, Austin Energy has contracted to own its own transmission lines for overnight Wind Energy to supply Voltec vehicles here. No middleman up-charges.
Pickens just wants the Senate to hand over to him Wind Energy Transmission Line Corridor rights, apparently without any strings or limits from what I can see.
Not an Idea I like unless he wants to turn 100% it back over to the public as a publicly owned asset for a fixed sum as prearranged from the beginning.
He wants natural gas for vehicles which I am strictly opposed to. It is a nightmare for the consumer, and, even for a business if the business person is not totally aware of GNG’s terrible limitations and impurities.
Jul 7th, 2009 (5:38 pm)The traction motor is only rated 120KW, I believe. You might run into power electronics limits too but ya never know. Personnally, I think they should have designed around a higher power motor so the same packaging with higher power electronics could be used in higher performance or larger cars but cost may have been the killer to this idea.
Jul 7th, 2009 (5:41 pm)No worries, unless you need more than 50KW average power. This is somewhere around 100mph continuous on level ground. Prolonged hills bring this down substantially but real world there are a lot of ups and downs and turns so it is a non-issue for legal and marginally illegal driving.
Jul 7th, 2009 (5:42 pm)EDIT: moved
+1
Jul 7th, 2009 (5:44 pm)#20 Lurtz said, “P.S. Why too many dealers are bad for GM? Aren’t they independently owned?
—
I see you asked this on the last thread as well, I copy and pasted a response from back in May there when they announced the first 1,100 to hit the road, if you don’t mind, I’ll just copy and paste it again here as well
/hopefully this is what you are looking for
======================
======================
#9 Statik said:
May 15th, 2009 at 6:51 am
http://gm-volt.com/2009/05/15/gm-to-cut-1100-dealers-today/
SImple transportation is a good place to start.
—-How many deliveries does a dealership get in a week…total? Them trucks carrying cars don’t cost like $10 to run. Your looking at say $700 bucks a drop? Maybe the dealership gets a delivery every other day of the week from the mothership. $700 x 3 drops x 52 weeks = 110k per dealer. So the savings on 3,600 dealers per year would be….about 400 million. If he gets 5, thats 655 million. If he gets 7, thats 900 million. (Easy to see the money saved when you look at the fact oyota is selling close to GM’s volume, but only dropping to 1,200 dealers instead of 6,000+)
How about the white shirts employed by GM?
–There is a hierachy above the dealer that has a immediate impact. GM has approximately 1,200 ‘white collar’ shirts looking after these dealers, ie) there is a rep for each cluster of dealers (maybe like 8-12), then he has a boss that looks after a region, then he has a boss that has a whole big ‘chunk of the map,’ all of whom report to a souless VP.
This white collar guys are all making 75-150K…42% less dealers = less shirts, probably 500 less. 500,000 x 125,000 = 62.5 million
Lastly, stuff that sucks:
–Some of these closures, are a necessary evil to get rid of, because they are one of the main contributing factors to the brand not being shuttered. The Oldsmobile fiasco cost a billion (that was a lot of dealers too)…but you are probably looking at another billion here if they try to do it outside of the GSB.
–What is the value on getting rid of those 150-300 orphaned dealerships…the ones that make no sense, the ones that have long since been displaced by highways and city growth? You know the one, in the worst part of town, in a field by itself. It used to be a good dealership, but now won’t die. Probably the dealer owns the land, and the building, and can live on a dime…these are money losers to GM. They have minimum standards of support they have to give, and that minimum probably costs them a easy 100K once you factor it all in. Another 30 mil a year.
I’m sure there is lots of other junk I’m missing, but with just these things you are looking at a savings of probably 2 billion in the first year…and 600 million to a billion each subsequent year.
Jul 7th, 2009 (5:51 pm)There is a lot more battery reserve than there is in the Prius which uses Atkinson and needs the power directly for the wheels in high power situations. Microcylces are much easier on the battery than deeper cycles, just ask Toyota.
Jul 7th, 2009 (5:55 pm)I don’t care. And I’m not that “young”, LOL. Immature, maybe.
Jul 7th, 2009 (6:00 pm)Surprise, surprise
Jul 7th, 2009 (6:01 pm)Yes, in general that’s the sort of thing I had in mind. The Volt might not be able to know *exactly* where it’s going, but it could distinguish “I’m in mid-town Manhattan at noon” versus “I’m northbound on I-684 at midnight” or “I’m in the middle of Nebraska” versus “I’m westbound out of Death Valley”.
Or, “Fanboy has just taken delivery of me and I’m northbound on I-93. Charge!”
Speaking of northbound I-684 at midnight, I clocked 41.5 mpg in the Fit, Hartford to JFK Airport and back on Sunday evening with passengers and luggage. High points: narrowness (e.g. on the Whitestone bridge!), roominess and nimble steering. Low point: torque, lack of; I had to flog the heavily-loaded Fit pretty hard in a few spots to get out of the way of the New York traffic.
I wonder if Lyle doesn’t have the best of all worlds for NYC driving with the MINI-E: small size and instant electric torque.
Jul 7th, 2009 (6:04 pm)I wouldn’t say that. I would say that this makes the driving experience more like a conventional hybrid, with with drastically different balance-points.
Disclaimer: What follows is speculation, based on very little substantive information.
Assuming that there is an Eco/Sport mode switch in the Volt, I foresee the following behavior. In “Sport” mode, it behaves in principle like a conventional hybrid, despite having a less direct connection to the wheels. While a Prius will usually engage the gas engine after you press the accelerator through, say, 1/8th of it’s range-of-motion, the Volt might engage the gasoline generator when you push the accelerator to about 7/8ths of the way to the floor. At that point, both cars (would) throttle the engine to make something close to the amount of power you’re asking for. I would say that this behavior is like that of a conventional hybrid in that you have to program your muscle-memory not to whump the accelerator beyond a certain point, but the balance is dramatically different.
Of course I’m hoping that the “eco mode” of an eco/sport switch (were it to exist), would prevent the gasoline generator from starting at all, until I’ve depleted the battery (down to the customer depletion point, or whatever it’s called). That way, I could almost guarantee that I don’t use any gas during my daily commute, but could switch it into “sport” mode when I have to do one of those hail-mary merges.
There are other ways to achive this. My Jetta TDI had a little electronic switch that was engaged when the pedal hit the floor that put the engine into “run for its life” WOT mode. You could feel the switch engage, so it was fairly easy to keep from engaging “sport mode” accidentally. This system worked well, and had the advantage of you not having to tell the driver anything in order to get the response they were looking for.
Anyway, based on my speculation, I think running the Volt’s gasoline engine at multiple speeds is Correct Behavior. To be fair, I was hoping for something more like a pure-EV driving experience — but not at the expense of the forcing the car to be less than it can be. If my speculation is remotely close to correct, the engineers have made the Right Calls here.
+1
Jul 7th, 2009 (6:05 pm)Oh yes, the inductive charger idea again. There is a big difference between a mobile phone and an electric car. The huge air gap in an inductive charger makes it so inefficient that it takes way more energy (and $$) from your house than you get into your battery. And the huge amount of waste heat will melt anything plastic and burn any bystanders.
At this power level, driving onto bus bars would be a much more practical “docking station.”
Jul 7th, 2009 (6:14 pm)I sure hope 20 seconds is a worst case number (e.,g., at -40 C). Under typical conditions, customers will expect the car to be ready to go within 2 seconds of turning the key (like their existing car). GM is surely aware of how much their customers hated waiting for diesel glow plugs to warm up. After all, this is an electric car; it’s not like you have to start the engine!
+1
Jul 7th, 2009 (6:19 pm)Yes that’s right. If Area 51 was suddenly shrunken down to the size of a 7-11 and had convenient freeway access!
Jul 7th, 2009 (6:22 pm)Looks like this Australian driver also thinks the Volt drives more like a sports car:
http://www.carpoint.com.au/news/2009/small-passenger/chevrolet/australian-of-the-year-tests-holden-volt-15752
“Anyone who thinks electric cars are sluggish is kidding themselves,” Flannery told the Carsales Network at the launch of the new Toyota Prius in Sydney this week. “It felt like a sports car. In fact, the Prius felt sluggish by comparison.”
Jul 7th, 2009 (6:23 pm)dude, for me, on a family vac to Southern Cal down the I-5 strip, I am at 90MPH for at least 3hrs till I hit the “Grape Vine” or popo (that’s ghetto for police) is in sight.
Man I sure hope the brakes can handle the stopping requirements for a 3500lb car at that speed, or any speed for that matter.
Hey, Lyle, there’s your next test drive!!! Screetch the brakes (I know, ABS will kick in) at a 35-40mph, or faster, quick stop. See how long it takes you to stop.
Jul 7th, 2009 (6:24 pm)I used to work for a guy who had a favorite saying, when accused of over reaching in what he was asking from clients:
“You don’t ask, you don’t get.”
All we can say is “no”.
I mean, if we can hand out billions to all of the suspects so far, why shouldn’t Boone hire a few lobbyists and PR consultants and have a go? Environmental impacts? What environmental impacts? This is a ‘green” project boy. Shut up.
Jul 7th, 2009 (6:26 pm)Make no mistake, though; just as soon as battery technology improves to the point where buffering between the single-speed genset and full range of speeds is possible, somebody (perhaps even GM) will build it. There will be much greater efficiencies and mechanical flexibilities to be had.
__________________
I don’t understand how battery technology affects this.
Ability to survive more charge cycles?
Ability to accept 53 kW charge?
Something else?
________
I would add a third criteria to this;
Keep in mind that if something like EEStor turns out to
1) be for real
2) be cheap enough to use in a car if it is real
3) has high enough energy density (See to Believe?)
Jul 7th, 2009 (6:28 pm)Off topic for this thread but relevent to the photo. I think they need a better scale model. Maybe bring back Wags or use the semi-retired Lutz to give the Volt better scale. I’m afraid too many people may get the wrong impression about it’s size by looking at the photo with Mr. Farah at the wheel.
+2
Jul 7th, 2009 (6:33 pm)No!
Put a 36-26-36 5’6″ Blonde Blue eyed stripper next to it!
Jul 7th, 2009 (6:35 pm)I think you got right on the head there.
I think the something else is size/density.
+1
Jul 7th, 2009 (6:43 pm)From the article:
“Flannery did have some criticisms of the Volt. He said the interior felt cramped compared to the Prius. ”
How big is this dude compared to Farah?….lol
+1
Jul 7th, 2009 (6:44 pm)People are such sheep. Really are we so ignorant and uninformed that we need to sense that there is an engine running when we specifically buy an electric car???? C’mon!!!!!
Jul 7th, 2009 (6:45 pm)People who are allergic to change will not be buying a Volt, with its electric drive.
+1
Jul 7th, 2009 (6:45 pm)Google for: green japan-becomes-world’s-largest-market-for-hybrids-in-june
Hybrid sales are taking off in Japan due to a perfect storm of newly available vehicles – namely the latest Toyota Prius and Honda Insight – and government-sponsored incentives. In Japan, gas is currently selling for about $4.50 a gallon, partly due to high fuel taxes in that country. In addition, the Japanese government has decreed that hybrid cars are exempt from taxes. Combine all of these factors and you end up with a seven-month waiting list for the new 2010 Toyota Prius.
In total, Toyota sold an impressive 22,292 Prius hybrids and Honda sold 8,782 Insights in Japan in the month of June, meaning that those two vehicles alone accounted for more sales than America’s entire hybrid tally of 26,205 vehicles sold last month. Further breaking down the numbers reveals that one in every eight new cars sold in Japan is a hybrid, compared to one in three here in the United States.
——————————————
Man, IF GM had the Volt out already, can you imagine how many they could’ve sold there?
Jul 7th, 2009 (6:53 pm)Maybe so. I like it
+1
Jul 7th, 2009 (6:59 pm)Wow, that’s great news for fuel cell fans. Now auto makers can replace expensive but lightweight hydrogen tanks with expensive but very heavy, metal filled storage systems.
Jul 7th, 2009 (7:01 pm)Darn, I was hoping it was Lyle…
I wanted to read about the test drive tommrow(today)
Jul 7th, 2009 (7:03 pm)Don’t be fooled about Pickens.
The extremely heavy-handed way his associates and interest groups treat people here in Texas is NASTY, UNDIGNIFIED, AND AWFUL!!!, as I have experienced it REPEATEDLY myself. PERIOD.
The only “green” Pickens sees is the color of money.
There are HUNDREDS of other good business people who are in line to do Wind Projects and Transmission line projects.
PICKENS DESERVES NOTHING. NO OPPORTUNITY AT ALL.
Also, CNG is not “green” either where you properly carbon- account for the other things regarding it.
Many Texans here are fed up with him and his stale plan to use CNG in cars. If you bought (or could buy) a Civic CNG car, you would turn it back the next day.
Don’t remain fooled and at least please consider trusting the experience of other Texans if you don’t choose to believe me. The internet works both ways.
Jul 7th, 2009 (7:03 pm)We don’t want to OVER-hype the Volt though. An optimal amount of media coverage and hype is what you want. Apple does this with products like the iPhone that are “coming soon to a theater near you”
___________________________
Apple makes millions of phones, there are 50,000 folks on Lyle’s wait list alone, and plans for only an initial 10,000 cars, with 1st gen sales still over a year away!
Jul 7th, 2009 (7:04 pm)You are way behind on the techonology.. google mit wireless power transfer
Jul 7th, 2009 (7:16 pm)HarHarHar, I am thinking the police siren would be behind me! With that max torque it will STAY way behind me! Whahoo
Most of the time the throttle is blipped in netrual, that is what happened in days gone by. I have blipped the throttle in the Prius, it was when I had the car inspected. The mechanic wanted the engine to run when he hooked up the diognostic equpment as requred by law. It was very uninpressive. However the throttle must be blipped by law, or so I have ben told.
I do enjoy the shifter in the HHR, retro enjoyment. I do have recordings of some races i have attended, That may explane some of the facination with the blip. I am to young to miss the sounds of hoofbeats.
pardon the spelling, spell checker gone awol.
Jul 7th, 2009 (7:20 pm)Damn you are good!
+1
Jul 7th, 2009 (7:21 pm)Dam,
If they keep this up I may have to change my name.
-1
Jul 7th, 2009 (7:22 pm)Brilliant Herm.
Jul 7th, 2009 (7:22 pm)There is an efficiency penalty for the technology.
Jul 7th, 2009 (7:23 pm)Here is a crazy one, turn the radio on and the ICE becomes totally optimized for economy. Turn the radio off and the ICE follows the throttle. My logic is you would not hear the ICE with the radio on.
You would get better mileage with the radio on…
+1
Jul 7th, 2009 (7:32 pm)How is the MINI-E going Lyle??
Jul 7th, 2009 (7:37 pm)Transmission adaptive shift is pretty seamless nowadays.
I’d bet the Volt will be so smooth in transitions, you would never be able to detect the changes. Also, the SRS occupant position sensor or occupant classification sensor could have the Volt know who is driving and access that particular “learned” set of adaptations from the SRS subprocessor.
Jul 7th, 2009 (7:41 pm)Here Here Herm!
I think you got it right. i have enjoyed both the Prius and Insight. However I do have a sweet spot for the shifty HHR.
Cheers Matey
Jul 7th, 2009 (7:46 pm)The PCM uses only a twentieth of an amp to run. LIkely all systems will be monitored around the clock real time. You possibly could get a notice right while you are reading my text that your Volt wants to tell you something.
I’ll bet everyone who has a chance to get a Volt will be stunned and amazed at all the incredible things GM is going to do for it.
And, all your friends and neighbors will ask you all about it.
Jul 7th, 2009 (7:52 pm)I will bite, and raise you one. With all the money saved by buying a Camaro, many carbon credits could be bought causing the Camaro to be more green than the Volt.
Jul 7th, 2009 (7:58 pm)Thanks! I re-asked the question here because I thought the old thread closed after I asked it.
Jul 7th, 2009 (7:59 pm)Agreed Mr Park, after many years my better half finally sat in a Prius, now we own one. An internet blog is not something that can be sold to the better half, however it is entertainment.
Jul 7th, 2009 (8:03 pm)Don’t go wobbly on us statik. Just blurt it out and let us read it for ourselves. If we disagree we’ll say so. (smile)
Jul 7th, 2009 (8:13 pm)Quoting CapJack:
“No! Put a 36-26-36 5′6″ Blonde Blue eyed stripper
next to iton my lap!”—
There ya go… FTFY, buddy.
Jul 7th, 2009 (8:22 pm)Wow.
You know that sign that says
“In God we trust, everyone else pays cash”
There is also what I say,
If you don’t believe God is watching, you’d better believe
Everyone else is.
Jul 7th, 2009 (8:39 pm)Really interesting comments in the automotive news article aboutt he “feel of a sports car”. Be sure to read the link, not just Lyle’s post.
Jul 7th, 2009 (8:45 pm)The subsidies for electric cars are much greater than the ones for regular hybrids. Roughly $15,000 per car. I’m not sure if an EREV would qualify.
But, not to get all political on you, but there’s no way GM’s going to sell the Volt in Japan. I’m sure they’ll try at some point, and they might sell a couple hundred…if they’re lucky. Japan is a closed market. Notice that neither Tesla nor Fisker Karma have even tried to market their cars in Japan.
This is a big part of why it paid for Toyota to develop the Prius…
Jul 7th, 2009 (8:48 pm)As in beaver?
Jul 7th, 2009 (8:50 pm)I don’t care either. But if people might be thrown off by it–it’s important that this car be acceptable to the general public.
Jul 7th, 2009 (8:51 pm)Yep.
+2
Jul 8th, 2009 (6:07 am)http://www.allcarselectric.com/review/1022015_the-first-1000-miles-of-driving-the-mini-e-electric-car
Jul 8th, 2009 (7:08 am)I agree with many here that I want max efficiency and I don’t really need nor do I want it to sound like a standard ICE vehicle. I too think it should have a compatibility mode(which allows it to sound like a standard ICE) and a max efficiency mode that does away with directly linking throttle response to engine RPMs.
Also, Farah said they are not going for library quiet but I believe the Volt should be as quiet as possible. This is what will be the most unique part of the experience. Near silent driving. This should be capitalized on. It is what makes Voltec unique. Please do gauge the publics response to the driving experience through clinics or other means so as to make sure you surpass expectations. You need to capitalize on what makes the Volt unique.
Good luck!
Jul 8th, 2009 (8:53 am)Yes, I read over the inductive part – I agree the product will be direct contact charging of some kind, the issue is how to safely and autonomously get that direct contact.
Jul 8th, 2009 (11:09 am)Whenever I’ve become aware of the adaptive shift, it’s been something that I’ve had to fight. I’ve only owned one car with a conventional automatic transmission, and it had five of those ZF 01M 4-speed automatic transmissions.
I have driven rentals and borrowed cars where it all seems to work pretty well — but I got a little incredulous when a salesman told me that the adaptives would smooth out the 4-speed automatic transmission in a Subaru that I drove a couple of years ago.
I’d *much* rather know what’s going on under the hood, and have some manner of control over it.
But, then again, I’m a driveway-tinkerer with more computer-skills than the average person, so my opinions may not be statistically significant. But, if I could spy on the adaptives with an open-source program like VAG-COM (except with the communications mechanism implemented properly), then I’d be super-happy. I can’t afford a factory scan-tool, but as a guy who cut his teeth on open-source software, I can’t figure out why I should need anything more than an RS-232 cable and a VT100 terminal to do everything that the factory scan-tools does (except without that easy-to-use GUI).
Jul 8th, 2009 (11:16 am)Absolutely!
I always get excited when I see Linux boot up on the credit-card scanners at Home Depot, or the in-flight entertainment system on airliners. And going through the syslog reports in the morning at work would be much better if they were read by a sexy woman’s voice. And I like having a window into any black-box.
Still, the leading competitive green-car boots in 3-5 seconds, depending on how you count. It’s at least as quickly as I can start my Ranger and put it into gear.
Jul 8th, 2009 (11:56 am)Has anyone read about the newest version of the 737 airliner having a small turbine powered generator powering electric drive for taxing from the terminal to the runway with the large jet engines off. Another step in saving fuel with electric powered drive systems.
Jul 8th, 2009 (12:14 pm)That makes sense. 20 seconds from the time I re-attach the battery cables sounds completely reasonable!
20 seconds from the time I push the “start” switch (or turn the key, if you must), seems excessive.
As for the power draw of the powertrain control module:
Even if it’s mostly idle, having a computer doing useful work while connected to an active electro-mechanical system while using only one twentieth of an amp at 12V sounds really efficient! That 600mW is really good, especially considering that one of my ATX desktops pulls around 5000mW when it’s turned off! Of course, embedded systems are a different game from the desktop and high performance computers that I’m familiar with, but it still sounds like the engineer who designed the computer deserves a few free beers.
(I hope I decoded the acronym correctly!)
Jul 8th, 2009 (12:27 pm)I appreciate both Nasaman’s and your comments and have modded both up.
I frequently commute on two wheels. My motorcycle had a wimpy horn. My bicycle doesn’t have a horn, so if I’m in a situation where I need a horn, all I can do is put everything I can into my front brakes, shout at the top of my lungs and hope the driver will hear me through his/her steel cage and cell-phone conversation.
But I would assume that being able to hear horns and sirens is probably on the standard list-of-requirements for any automotive sound-damping system. That quiet luxurious feel can be important, especially in a car that might be close to $40k.
Jul 8th, 2009 (12:29 pm)Liquids like water are terrible at transmitting sound? *cough*
Jul 8th, 2009 (12:38 pm)If by Voltec and Volt, you mean that electric drive is unique, I agree. To the near silent driving (tires on the road is the loudest sound on my high performance electric motorcycle, followed by the wind), you can add maximum torque at 0 rpm, and at all times up to about half of the maximum speed, near linear acceleration with no pregnant pause at the start, shifting pauses, or peaky power bands from inefficient multiple gears. What’s unique about performance electric drive is the built in quiet, instant torque at stop or speed, high performance and near linear operation, intrinsic luxury qualities. Let that shine, GM. The ICE is just there to optimize operation beyond its initial power pack range. Why not let it sound like what it sounds like when optimized for energy efficient operation to sustain the power pack for its full electric drive motive power, within typical consumer noise acceptability at its price point? Folks will easily get used to the (most often silent, as 80% of driving done in US is 40 miles or less) sound difference from antiquated full gassers, as millions of consumers already have for the more than 30 make/models of common, mass produced full hybrids and electrics already on the road. It sounds like maybe GM is using the perky yet somewhat rough Nissan Altima hybrid (NAh) sound/operation as an extended mode operation sound maximum noisiness benchmark here.
http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/comparison_test/sedans/2010_ford_fusion_hybrid_vs_camry_hybrid_altima_hybrid_and_malibu_hybrid_comparison_test+page-3.html
How do recharging generators, such as those below, sound at close quarters when operating at > 3 kWh minimum? If the Volt gen 1 is milder, I’d call that progress.
http://www.peakpowertools.com/Diesel-Generator-AllPower-6500-Watt-Generator-p/gap6500sdg.htm
http://www.peakpowertools.com/Allpower-6000-Watt-Propane-Generator-p/gjt6500lpg.htm
Jul 8th, 2009 (1:08 pm)Jackson,
Laughed out loud thinking about the spaceballs guy sitting in the car next to you. Ha ha….
Jul 8th, 2009 (2:11 pm)I just now read the article. It is great news that the volt is going to be sportier, but isn’t that expected with the pricetag?
Jul 8th, 2009 (2:13 pm)I hate to say it, but you are right. people just do not accept change very well at all.
Jul 8th, 2009 (2:17 pm)It really is not that difficult. my GM vehicle is able to determine what settings we want by the key that unlocks the door. maybe adjust a few things and keep a memory of how we drive; although, this may have to come in later generations.
Jul 8th, 2009 (2:19 pm)until it becomes the norm… if it becomes the norm. people flock to the popular new gadgets. once they seem to catch on, they become the norm.
Jul 8th, 2009 (2:27 pm)well stated, kyle.
Jul 8th, 2009 (2:27 pm)i thought so too
Jul 8th, 2009 (2:31 pm)must be much bigger.. Farah looks kinda small inside the volt.
Jul 8th, 2009 (4:00 pm)ok, I have an actual preference on this one.
I dislike engine/exhaust pipe tuning sound marketing if it changes vehicle performance behavior from optimal by one iota.
I’d prefer a completely muffled generator (gasoline if I can’t get clean bio-diesel, propane (lpg), CNG, compressed air, non-food-crop (switchgrass, camelina, etc.) ethanol if none of the preceding non-gasoline choices is offered) for the quietest interior ride possible and a cheap audio CD (or pay-fer wi-fi mp3 download of tracks – figure out the new revenue centers, GM – everyone else is) with the purchase, titled something like “Best of Noises from Classic Full Gassers” that can be played at maximum volume on the exterior horn speaker.
Please don’t sacrifice vehicle efficiency and performance for sound tuning (a marketing feature) that can be emulated, AT DRIVER DISCRETION, cheaper and easier with a $20 CD or an embedded and wi-fi remote downloadable and re-programmable mp3 set in the drivetrain mangement algorithm. With a sound system and external (horn) and internal speakers, you can make the Volt sound however you (GM engineers and the driver or passengers) want to, even at profits to GM. Just don’t mess with optimizing the generator for vehicle performance to do it.
Best Buy (who started in music and then CDs) is going into personal transportation as a consumer electronics division. Do the same, GM, if you want to see lots of coin.
Though I’ve never been in an EV-1, I’d pay some decent coin to get an EV-1 sound track dowloaded to my Volt for it to play.
Jul 8th, 2009 (4:02 pm)[...] 03:03 PM Chevy Volt Has the Feel of a Sports Car, and Engine RPMs Follow Accelerator | GM-VOLT : Chevy Volt E… I don’t think it will be out till 2011 anyway. I hope GM survives long enough to build [...]
Jul 8th, 2009 (4:06 pm)[...] 03:03 PM Chevy Volt Has the Feel of a Sports Car, and Engine RPMs Follow Accelerator | GM-VOLT : Chevy Volt E… I don’t think it will be out till 2011 anyway. [...]
Jul 8th, 2009 (7:30 pm)I think you are losing it Captain.
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-1
Jul 9th, 2009 (1:47 pm)Wow. Go away for a couple of days, and there are 1k posts here!
I lean toward making the Volt as close to other cars as possible from a driver perspective. You wouldn’t want to switch to a yoke from a steering wheel, or, put the key start in the center console (well Saab does, but, they’re ‘made from jets’.
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The car needs to be a car. It needs to work like other cars and be so little different that a driver can easily switch from a Toyota to a Chevy and not have to re-learn how to drive.
So just in case someone is taking a poll, I vote that the ICE operates as close to ‘normal’ (meaning RPM follows throttle position) like any other car. If this means that I get less MPG, then, that’s ok. It also means that my wife won’t be freaked out by it.
I won’t be using the ICE anyway. After 100k miles the gas engine will still be brand new!
Make mine Caddy white pearl please
Jul 10th, 2009 (1:05 pm)What every luxury vehicle wants is a cheap one of these:
http://dsc.discovery.com/news/2009/06/17/sonic-black-hole.html
Jul 10th, 2009 (1:08 pm)Right. People are so freaked out at the mismatch between engine on/off/rpms and vehicle behavior that occurs with existing full hybrids that they haven’t made any of the millions of purchases of them over the last decade that actually occured.
Jul 10th, 2009 (2:58 pm)Can the generator engage the engine, but without fuel, so that the drivers hears at least some rpms when they step on the gas? That seems like a reasonable compromise for all of us for gen 1.
Disclaimer: I know absolutely nothing about how gasoline ICEs or how generator-engine interactions work.
Jul 10th, 2009 (3:10 pm)Hi there EVO.
The sound that we associate with an engine is basically the sound of the fuel being burned and the resulting high pressure air rushing from the exhaust.
Spinning the engine without fuel would not simulate the sound.
I honestly think they are working on making the genset so quiet that sound becomes a non-issue.
Jul 10th, 2009 (3:20 pm)The total number of hybrids sold worldwide are little more than a footnote in the total numbers of all cars sold.
On top of this, most current hybrids are parallel systems and the engine directly drives the wheels so the engine HAS to follow the pedal.
The Volt is different, the engine as you well know is not attached to the wheels. I would like to see the engine run at set ‘sweet spots’ in it’s range for maximum efficency. The engine would likely move up or down to the spots in a controlled manner to promote smoothness.
I see no reason why if the sound is perceptable the engine couldn’t drift from a ‘low’ spot to a ‘medium’ spot on acccelleration though.
Jul 10th, 2009 (5:25 pm)Thanks very much for the info. It’s kind of nice to realize that I’m now so unfamiliar with ICEs that folks have to explain the basics of them to me.
I imagine the same sort of experience happened when we switched over from horses, although I doubt anyone ever mourned the loss of frequent horse farts or tried to emulate them in automobiles. Oh wait, they did, with ICEs. Apparentely ICEs were just temporary noise maker devices designed to wean us off of horse sounds. I think we’re ready to move on now.
As quiet as possible at all times is my preference. I’ll put in a CD of farting horses if I ever grow nostalgic for fueled ICE noise (don’t hold your breath ).
As for pedestrians, sight works, and for blind folks, all vehicles alreday come with a built in sound warning device called a horn.
Jul 15th, 2009 (12:59 am)Your point is true at 25 MPH.
At 60 MPH level cruse, the engine will run all the time. The average power is too high to let the engine stop, so it will have to run non-stop at intermediate power levels.