Cadillac Provoq Fuel Cell E-Flex Concept
GM has just revealed the Cadillac Provoq, a 4 door crossover concept, which uses the E-Flex platform with a hydrogen fuel-cell range extender.
It runs on GM’s svelte 5th-generation hydrogen fuel cell stack married to an E-Flex propulsion system, which is the all-electric powertrain powered by a large rechargeable lithium-ion battery pack. It is a zero-emissions vehicle.
The vehicle is designed to go 20 miles on a charge with an additional 280 miles of range provided by two hydrogen tanks each capable of holding 3 kg of the compressed gas. No gasoline here.
This one is all-wheel drive, with a pair of 40 kW rear wheel hub motors and a 70 kW front coaxial motor, and goes 0 to 60 in 8.5 secs.
Per GM VP of R&D Larry Burns, “This is proof that alternate fuels and advanced technologies create even greater opportunities to satisfy the luxury buyer.”
Additional cool stuff included: solar panel in the roof for small electricals, front grille that closes at highway speeds to reduce drag, stylish double front bumper charging ports, uncompromising interior, and sleek unmistakable Cadillac exterior.
Read all the details by clicking below.
For release: Jan. 8, 2008, 12:01 a.m. EST
CADILLAC PROVOQ FUEL CELL CONCEPT DELIVERS CLEAN, PETROLEUM-FREE PERFORMANCE AND SIGNATURE DESIGN
LAS VEGAS – Cadillac unveils a new vision for the future of luxury transportation with the innovative Provoq fuel cell concept – a hydrogen fuel cell crossover vehicle that continues GM’s commitment to displace petroleum through advanced technology.
The Cadillac Provoq fuel cell concept is the latest example of GM’s groundbreaking E-Flex propulsion system, combining the new fifth-generation fuel cell system and a lithium-ion battery to produce an electrically driven vehicle that uses no petroleum and has no emission other than water. The concept’s fifth-generation fuel cell technology is half the size of its predecessor, yet it has been developed to produce more power and performance.
“Cadillac is a natural fit for GM’s next step in developing the E-Flex platform,” says Jim Taylor, Cadillac general manager. “Cadillac, at its very essence, is about premium luxury, design and technology, so it’s fitting that Cadillac would be propelled by the most elegant solution. This signals Cadillac’s intent to lead the industry with alternative-fuel technology.”
Fuel-cell variant of the E-Flex system
The concept can drive 300 miles (483 km) on a single fill of hydrogen – with 280 miles (450 km) from hydrogen and 20 miles (32 km) on pure, battery electric energy.
A pair of 10,000 psi (700 bar) composite storage tanks beneath the rear cargo floor hold 13.2 pounds (6 kg) of hydrogen to feed the fuel cell stack, located under the hood. There, hydrogen mixes with oxygen to generate electricity – up to 88 kW continuous power. A lithium-ion battery pack can store up to a total of 9kWh of electrical energy and also provides a peak of 60 kW of power for additional performance.
The electricity generated by the fuel cell is distributed to a 70 kW co-axial drive system for the front wheels and individual, 40 kW wheel hub motors on the rear wheels, giving the Cadillac Provoq its all-wheel-drive traction and great driving dynamics. Its 0-60 mph (approximately 100 km/h) speed of 8.5 seconds is a more than 30-percent improvement over the previous-generation fuel cell system and with instantaneous torque to the wheels, it feels even faster. Provoq has a top speed of 100 mph (160 km/h).
“This is a vision of what comes next – a fuel cell electric vehicle that delivers the driving characteristics Cadillac customers want and allowing them to do it without using a single drop of petroleum, while emitting only water vapor,” said Larry Burns, GM vice president for research and development. “This is proof that alternate fuels and advanced technologies create even greater opportunities to satisfy the luxury buyer.”
Key features
With sleek, signature Cadillac bodywork, the Provoq concept redefines luxury crossovers, offering uncompromising passenger and cargo space to match its performance and cruising range. Additional vehicle features include:
· Solar panel integrated in the roof to help power onboard accessories, such as the interior lights, audio system and more
· Brake-by-wire technology
· Front grille louvers that close at highway speed to enhance aerodynamics, and open at low speed to provide maximum cooling to the fuel cell stack
Purposefully dynamic design
The Provoq has a sleek, athletic shape that builds on the second generation of Cadillac’s design renaissance, led by the 2008 CTS, with dynamic and purposeful features that support the hydrogen fuel cell powertrain and contribute to the vehicle’s overall efficiency.
“All the people- and cargo-carrying capability customers expect in crossovers and SUVs is available in the Provoq, along with the premium attributes expected in a Cadillac,” said Ed Welburn, vice president, Global Design.
Highlights include:
· Active front grille, with grille louvers that open when the fuel cell stack requires cooling
· Full underbody aerodynamic cover
· Left- and right-hand charging ports incorporated in stylish front fender vents
· Flush door handles that feature push-to-release operation
· Wind tunnel-shaped outside mirrors with integral turn signals
· Center high-mounted rear stop lamp incorporated into full-width, wraparound spoiler
· Signature vertical taillamps with subtle fin design
· Side glass mounted flush with pillars
· Wheels with clear-covered space between the spokes, creating a sleeker profile while maintaining Cadillac’s signature bold wheel design
· Low-drag roof rack
“From the strong, shield grille and vertical headlamps to the crisp body lines, the Provoq is instantly recognizable as a contemporary Cadillac,” said Hoon Kim, exterior lead designer. “Like the new CTS, it is bold and expressive, but there is enhanced shape between the edges – it’s a new proportion for crossovers, with a fast, almost coupe-like rear.
“Everything about the vehicle reinforces the notion that great style and environmentally conscious transportation can go hand in hand,” said Kim. “We didn’t sacrifice proportion, stance or Cadillac’s iconic design cues; we used them to support the efficiency of the vehicle.
“They are the features customers expect,” he said. “The adaptability of the E-Flex architecture enabled the designers to create a great-looking vehicle, regardless of its alternative-fuel powertrain.”
Kim points to the fender-mounted charge ports as prime example. They allow overnight, plug-in charging that extends the driving range. The ports have a satin-chrome appearance that incorporates an amber light to indicate the system is charging and a green light to indicate when charging is completed.
“The ports are functional, but rather than hide them, they are design elements of the Provoq,” he said. “Sweeping body lines that culminate at the top and bottom edges of the ports suggest forward thrust, even when the vehicle is stationary.”
The vertical, neon-lit taillamps blend style with functionality, too, as their finned shape was designed to make the Provoq as aerodynamically efficient as possible.
Indeed, the Provoq has short overhangs and a sporty ride height that is complemented by large, 21-inch wheels.
The wheels are wrapped in custom Michelin tires incorporating Green-X technology. These low-rolling resistance tires feature a tread pattern that mimics the “H20” notation for water.
The tire designers and engineers at Michelin North America enthusiastically accepted GM’s challenge to create a custom low-rolling resistance tire to complement the energy efficiency and reduced environmental footprint of the Cadillac Provoq. During the past 15 years, the tire maker has developed four generations of Michelin green energy-saving tires, and the team’s no-compromises approach to the project helped reduce the Provoq’s overall fuel consumption without sacrificing road performance, grip and safety.
When used in conjunction with the other energy-efficient solutions featured on the Cadillac Provoq, the benefits of Michelin green energy-saving tires include:
· A reduction in the consumer’s overall cost of ownership
· An extended vehicle range through a more efficient use of on-board energy and its storage capacity
· A reduction of vehicle impact on the environment through lower CO2 and particulate emissions.
Uncompromising interior
Like the exterior, the Provoq’s interior blends style with function. It seats five and incorporates the comfort, convenience and infotainment features Cadillac customers seek. Most importantly, the fuel cell powertrain does not intrude on passenger or cargo room.
The hydrogen fuel tanks are mounted beneath the cargo floor, with the storage batteries located at the center of the chassis. The fuel cell stack is located under the hood, giving the Provoq the interior layout of a conventional crossover – including a full cargo area and a 60/40-split folding rear seat.
“The interior is roomy, well-equipped and offers the space people want in a crossover,” said Matt Erdey, interior lead designer. “There are no compromises inside the Provoq to accommodate the fuel cell powertrain and fuel tanks – a factor that proves the technology and real-world feasibility are growing closer together.”
There may not be compromising reminders of the powertrain in the interior, but the Provoq carries the instantly identifiable hallmarks of a contemporary Cadillac interior, with an expressive, well-crafted design.
“It picks up the cues, refinement and attention to detail of the new CTS and takes them to the next level,” said Erdey. “A contrasting color scheme, extensive use of ambient lighting technology and elements such as cut-and-sewn, hand-wrapped leather with French seams are elements seen in current Cadillac models, but they are amplified in the Provoq. “
The interior has a contrasting, dark gray and light gray color scheme, with chrome and satin-chrome accents throughout. Ambient lighting extends across the instrument panel and into the door panels, as well as the foot wells, sills and under the seats.
A unique instrument cluster with large, reconfigurable LCD displays offers a multitude of vehicle information readouts, including fuel cell information and vehicle performance. Like the CTS, the Provoq has a prominent center stack that houses the audio and climate systems, as well as a navigation system that rises out of the top of the instrument panel. Also like the CTS, there is an integrated hard drive that stores navigation maps, thousands of songs and more.
Between the front bucket seats is a large center console with a fully enclosed storage compartment that is home to ports for USB-connected devices and other electronics. The console also has a cell phone holder with built-in Bluetooth and inductive charging. The compact shifting mechanism on the console uses shift-by-wire technology to engage the gears, resulting in more storage space within the console.
A variety of recycled and recyclable materials were used, as well. Highlights include:
· The headliner is wrapped in a fully recyclable soy-based material
· The carpet is made of recycled polyester and jute
· Leather used to cover the seats and instrumental panel is free of harmful chemicals
· Xorel material used on the door panels and instrument panel; treated to perform as a carbon-fiber-type material
· Chrome trim made with less-harmful materials
The earth-friendly interior components blend seamlessly with the more conventional materials inside the Provoq, enhancing the vehicle’s integrated, customer-focused environment. The same goes for the cargo area, which features an auxiliary power outlet and a load floor that is level with the hatch opening.
“The integration of the features and technology is remarkable,” said Erdey. “If you didn’t know there was a hydrogen fuel cell stack under the hood, you’d never know it was anything but a roomy, functional crossover.”
Popularity: 27%
(53 votes, average: 4.42 out of 5) 
Loading ...
I would buy one of these in a heart beat with a gas e-flex engine instead of a fuel cell. I will not consider a fuel cell until I can buy hydrogen at my local gas station.
Cool looking car!!!
I don’t usually go for SUVs (or CUVs), but that is a good looking car.
more pictures here: http://www.autoblog.com/2008/01/08/ces-2008-cadillac-provoq-fuel-cell-concept-revealed/
They put a solar panel on it and USB ports inside. Maybe they have been reading some of the many posts on this site.
At least they’re keeping it plug-in. The original hydrogen Volt concept didn’t have that.
I don’t mind hydrogen as a range extender. It would be great for the local air quality. But given the cost delta I just don’t see it making a difference in the real world anytime soon. Maybe they will be simple and cheap enough eventually that it does.
ps — Luxury vehicles used to be judged by how quiet they were. A plug-in with a fuel cell range extender will certainly be quiet.
Pretty neat.
Getting closer to my dream vehicle … a Saturn Outlook that uses the E-Flex architecture (with a regular generator, not fuel cells) to drive all four wheels.
Check out the tail lights!
Could Cadillac be bringing back fins?!?
It should be put into development in parallel with the Volt and it’s generator/battery power source so that it can be produced 2010-11. This should allow more resources to be devoted to the development of “practical” e-flex technology. The Provoq should have tremendous demand.
Check out the announcement on Maxwell’s site http://www.maxwell.com/news-events/release.asp?PRID=262. I hope their not jumping the gun.
20 miles…weak.
Great looking car though. I would expect nothing less from Cadillac (except that hideous Catera they put out years back).
Trading one pumping station for another is not saving me any time. Plugging in at home does.
“It runs on GM’s svelte 5th-generation hydrogen fuel cell stack”
Once again im wondering .. WDYM, 5th generation ? Where are the other generations to be seen ? And where can i buy them ?
Yea. Another Fuel cell car. Keep them coming. Now, where can I buy hydrogen?
Sorry guys, this is a stupid car for today.
It does have some cool stuff, but the fuel cell has to go. To me, the Volt makes so much sense, I think all cars should be made like it. Fuel cells can wait another decade or two or at least until the infrastructure is built.
[quote comment="25186"]I would buy one of these in a heart beat with a gas e-flex engine instead of a fuel cell. I will not consider a fuel cell until I can buy hydrogen at my local gas station.
Cool looking car!!![/quote]
I agree! 20 miles electric…weak. 300 miles total w/o infrastructure for refueling on trip…very weak.
It is a cool looking car but I don’t understand the exterior design at all. We hear all those sharp edges are NOT good for the Volt mileage. But, it is OK with the Provoq. Perhaps someone can explain that to me.
I’ll go for anything that’s:
1) Renewable
2) Efficient
3) Cost effective
Hydrogen is usually made from natural gas.
The efficiencies of storing and converting hydrogen are abysmal.
The cost of fuel cells and hydrogen infrastructure is astronomical.
Fails on all 3 counts.
Urban vehicles must be clean and get maximum miles per energy unit. The energy source does not matter. It is the maximum miles per unit that does matter.
Fuel cells are still not proven in cold climates. Dumping water out the tail pipe in a cold climate leads to ice on the roads.
Good looking vehicle, BUT HYDROGEN DOES NOT FLY because 1) the infrastructure isn’t here and 2) it’s too darned expensive. Why not release an EV like the ZAP-X crossover? I’d get excited about that. Not this.
…and another thing. What’s up with the step backwards with the mere 20 miles all electric range? Enthusiasts for the Volt, in my opinion, should discourage this vehicle, as GM can do better.
Hydrogen? no thanks. Go volt.
Yawn… your tax money at work.
Enough about Hydrogen, just another politically powered green-washing machine like ethanol that demands an infrastructure revamp that would do more harm than good. Other than that this car is slick! Front vents that close at highway speeds to reduce drag… so simple yet so ingenious, when can I see this on production cars?
I agree with Tim (18)and with Noel on the last thread: Enough of concepts and enough of green flag waving and teasing us with glimpses of a future that we know can and should be with us today
I was in Frankfurt this weekend. In my hotel room I caught the end of a German TV advert for the Flextreme - all flowers and daisies filling the air - very nice, except that we have been told on this site that it won’t be built, so why bother advertising it?
As a (relevant) aside, the French will be DELIVERING 1,000 of their Cleanova EREVS this year, having been ROAD testing since 2006. I saw the road-going vehicle (NOT a concept) myself at LAST year’s Geneva motor show - Li-Ion pack and all - I was shown around by an engineer. See:
http://www.cleanova.com/public/sve/
GM are only just in receipt of their 2nd bench testing experimental battery pack. The French are demonstrably YEARS ahead of this stage.
I have to chuckle when GM (plus one or two blinkered regulars on this forum) croon about how Detroit and the Volt lead the way with this technology, when the facts tell a different story.
While it is good news that GM are catching up in this area and will (hopefully) eventually overtake by supplying EREVs with mass appeal, they are definitely not the first company doing this and they will be at least 2 years behind the French.
This is all because GM axed its EV programme. The French Heuliez factory which produced my Citroen EV in the 1990s is the same one building the Cleanova now. The difference is that the French did not stand still - vive la difference!
Credit where credit is due, messieurs
Don’t worry. This car will get a normal ICE engine.
The problem is, there is lot of government money for fuel cells.
So, you design a fuel cell car, then at the last moment you switch the fuel cells for an ICE.
In this, the fuel cell money is diverted to PHEV’s.
Lucas
This car really makes no sense. A range-extender is ment to come on places where you can not rely on new infrastructure.
So, fuel-cells for range-extender makes no sense.
Furthermore, fuel-cells are very expensive. By using it as range-extender you don’t utilize a very expensive component.
It is very obvious, that this car is ment to get government fuel cell money for PHEV.
Lucas
If anyone has doubts about hydrogen check out the Honda home energy station.
Enough with the hydrogen pipe dream. I wish these US car companies (and Honda) would concentrate on the next ten years rather than fifty years from now. I dont want to see oil companies retain control of the US fuel market by “hyping” hydrogen like they currently control oil. Let the de-centralized state based electric companies fuel the future, not the oil companies. Im tired of my fuel dollars going countries outside of the US. Demand a plug in, or cripple the world’s economy by keeping hold of whatever car you currently own.
Lucas #21 “The problem is, there is lot of government money for fuel cells.”
This is a BAD and dangerous paradigm!
The REAL TRUTH is that the government has NO money!! It’s YOUR money that YOU earned and YOU should spend how YOU see fit. They only want you to think it’s theirs and they promote this paradigm so foolish people will freely let them steal it so they can use it to buy “support” from their special interest contributors like big energy. Hello, H2 comes from ‘Natural” gas and even then electric cars are 4X MORE efficient!
Only the ignorant, foolish or corrupt want H2 cars.
At the Consumer Electronics Show, GM also announced that they were working on cars that drove themselves, and that they’d be ready in 10 years.
Why was there no mention of the Volt at the Consumer Electronics Show?
Hydrogen might be a suitable range extender in the long term, assuming we want eventually to be completely free of gasoline. However, it is a bit premature just now.
Since physics is not negotiable by committee this is just another handsome concept car that may never make it to market with a fuel cell. Case in point, Ballard Power Systems Inc. has been the leader in fuel cell technology for decades. They’ve finally come to the same conclusion as my first sentence. Their H2 department is up for sale to the highest OEM bidder.
I assume that GM will offer some of the options mentioned for this vehicle on the Volt.
For example
* Solar panel integrated in the roof to help power onboard accessories.
* Brake-by-wire technology.
* Front grille louvers that close at highway speed to enhance aerodynamics.
And I assume Cadillac will convert this prototype to a Volt style powertrain with ICE generator, and 18 kwh batteries to support a 40 mile range before it goes production.
Would everyone quit beating up on GM. They are doing one hell of a job. Technology like this MUST precede it’s feasibility, if it does not, when it becomes feasible, they will be behind the curve. Everyone knows 20 miles all electric is “weak”, if you want to be part of this design process, how about 20 miles is “a GREAT start” I feel so honored to be invited to participate through this forum. No other company is doing this. I think I am going to go out and buy some GM stock, and when the product becomes available, I will be among the first in the showroom.
I also support gasoline or diesel for the generator, just so this can get to market faster, and appeal to more people sooner. If it doesn’t share powertrain with the VOLT I personally consider this a PR stunt.
GM - Do NOT let this vehicle detract any engineering time or effort from the Volt!!
You are 100% correct 20 miles is a great start! It will only get better. The only other thing I can say is DON’T SELL OUT TO THE BIG OIL COMPANYS. The oil companies will buy the technology and burn it. They did it in the 70’s and 80’s with thermal solar.
20 miles might be a great start, but the fuel cell is stupid.
#23 Mike Treehugger:
[quote comment="25257"]If anyone has doubts about hydrogen check out the Honda home energy station.[/quote]
I got pretty excited about the home hydrogen station about a year ago. I read several articles about it but came to the conclusion that it will be a long time before it is feasible for the following reasons:
1. The cost of the station installed would be about $10,000.
2. I doubt any municipality would allow a home hydrogen station due to safety risk. People still think of the Hindenburg. I doubt the government would want to go to everyone’s house on a periodic basis to inspect the station like they currently do at gas stations.
3. The oil companies would lobby heavily to prevent the home hydrogen stations.
It is a good idea to get around the infrastructure issue but is not practical. If say one hundred million people in the U.S. installed the stations at their homes and the cost was $10,000 each then the total cost to everyone would be one trillion dollars. Why do this when electricity is already available at home. Yes …Utilities would have to invest a lot to produce the electricity for the cars but I am sure it would be a lot cheaper than everyone buying their own station.
Ok, the solar panels are pretty cool, but ultimately this is like GM rolling out a concept for a flying car. Do they think we are fools?
Hey Pete K,
if 1,000 of their Cleanova EREVS is what 3x the price of gasoline compared to the US gets me, no thanks.
I am an Electric kind of Guy … wanting a car I can power from my Solar Panels on my House roof. I do not have Hydrogen coming out of the ground and want the highest efficiency I can get … not converting my KWH to H to then put in the car to convert again to KWH to turn the wheels. Lets KEEP IT SIMPLE … and Efficient … and let me get one soon! My 7000 watts of
Photo Voltaics are putting out the power now … way more than I use in the house! Also, we need to stop the carbon dioxide going into the air NOW.
As to styling … don’t waste your time on me with worries there. I want efficient, earth friendly transportation. I dont give a
crap about PRESTIGUE design and the Caddy name. GET ME AN EARTH SAVING CAR…NOW.
The problem with fuel cells is that the infrastructure for refueling does not exist. Until every gas station can provide this service (which may take 20 years or longer to implement), fuel cells are just not viable.
General Motors and other automobile manufacturers really need to concentrate their efforts on conventional hybrid-electric vehicles with plug-in capability. That technology is here now, and requires no changes to the infrastructure.
John Schupp,
I agree with you totally. It is a great start, what I tire of is the following:
Well I would only buy it if….
Give me a break!
Hey Alan Thompson,
I agree, “physics is not negotiable by committee.” Nor is intelligence, Ballard’s auto fuel cell division was purchased by Ford and Daimler. Ballard is concentrating their efforts on the forklift market which is more profitable. GO figure…
John Schupp - the problem is that fuel cell technology is no where near ready for prime time. Heck it’s not even out of the lab yet and won’t be anytime soon.
Also, fuel cell technology (or the idea of it) has been used as a tool of sorts to delay the automobile industry moving away from the ICE. Fuel cell vehicles have been “10 years away from the showroom” for more than three decades and they are still no where near ready.
#30 John Schupp:
[quote comment="25267"]Would everyone quit beating up on GM. They are doing one hell of a job. Technology like this MUST precede it’s feasibility, if it does not, when it becomes feasible, they will be behind the curve. Everyone knows 20 miles all electric is “weak”, if you want to be part of this design process, how about 20 miles is “a GREAT start” I feel so honored to be invited to participate through this forum. No other company is doing this. I think I am going to go out and buy some GM stock, and when the product becomes available, I will be among the first in the showroom.[/quote]
I believe most people posting hear would agree with you that GM is doing a hell of a job. I don’t believe they are beating up GM …they are only providing constructive critisim that hydrogen is currently not feasible. They don’t want GM to loose their focus on getting the Volt to market.
Kind of a lame performance - it’s really a hydrogen car with 20 miles of battery range.
I’d like to think that GM is more serious about getting on the bandwagon, but there’s more that could and should be done. Enough of the concept vehicles, let’s crank up production.
Good to read so many Volt enthusiast’s have their heads firmly attached regarding the hydrogen issue.
Yes big oil prefers that fuel source. It takes an exponential amount of fossil fuel to produce the stuff.
Yes Government is handing out a lot of $$ towards this technology. Big oil has a lot of influence on Government. Invading oil rich countries like Iraq is a sad, but graphic example of that.
General Motors- please keep going on with the Volt. Hydrogen is a non-starter. Over time this truth will become evident but those who desire a clean World are getting impatient!
I think a lot of people just skipped over the obvious, this is yet another GM brand with E-flex being readied fore production! That makes 4 I believe ?( If the Saturn surprise in Detroit is an E-flex as we hope.)
As for the 20 miles electric I don’t think it is as big a deal breaker for Cadillac drivers like the gas mileage on them now is not.If you ask me the Provoq looks closer to a production car than the Volt did last year. Gm should be able to swap the “fool cell” for an ICE and roll this out behind the volt.
I agree… I am ready to see some production.
I don’t believe 20 miles is a “great start” when you already have another concept capable of getting double that.
20 miles is a “start”. 40 miles is a “great start.”
That’s just my $0.02.
Has GM considered going into the retail hydrogen business?
GM already has the infrastructure in place at the dealerships. All you have to do is add the refueling capabilities. This is a simple fix for a complex problem, but it works well with GM’s plan to reduce dependency on Big Oil.
A+ for the Provoq. This is a much improved concept and styling of what Cadillac should be all about. Now puh-lease dump the ugh-ly CRX.
Tad, #31:
PR stunt? You think so? Naaaah, GM wouldn’t do that. Would they?
Matt 986, #32:
100%, absolutely, totally, dead right.
As so many, including Mr. Lutz, have said before, this is an existential race to recapture the technical high ground before Toyota, et al, get there first. Every distraction from the Volt is a step in the wrong direction.
Get the !@#$%^ Volt out in the marketplace, work the bugs out of it through masochistic first adopters like us, and then fool around with Cadillac, fuel cell, SUV versions, for crying out loud.
I would offer a comment on fuel cells, but you guys have aleady said everything there is to say, and much better than I could. Well done.
I don’t think 20 miles is a good start. It’s half of what the Volt gets. I also think the people who could afford to buy it wouldn’t bother to even plug it in for a twenty mile range. They would just fill it with gas (hydrogen…lol) and drive it with the motor constantly running.
Anyway, it’s just a concept at this point.Hopefully they’ll make improvements before they start building them.
Fuel cells are one of the WORST ideas for automobiles. A hydrogen fuel cell car requires THREE times as much energy from the source (electrical power station) as a pure electrical vehicle (like the Chevy Volt). So if you want fuel cell cars, then you better start building lots of new power stations. And what powers them? (coal, oil, natural gas) So much for “zero” pollution.
It was my understanding that the whole idea behind e-flex was to make it easy to change the way the on-board electricity is generated - i.e., by fuel cell, ICE, etc. So it seems like you should be able to order whichever system you want. Or did I miss something?
I suspect this is not the welcoming to this concept GM wanted… It’s nice the little guys here are screaming for “Volt or bust.”
I’m actually with John @30 - Why is it that so many posters on here can bash GM for being behind for killing their EV program a decade ago, than turn around and scream at them to kill the H2 program?
While I’m all for keeping the Volt as priority #1 (and #2 and #3, etc…), GM is a big company, and it makes perfect sense for them to at least keep one division looking into the technology. All it takes is one breakthrough somewhere down the road, and this could go from “never happening” to “coming next year” - and 15 years from now, I’d rather not then be yelling at GM for being so short sighted for killing their H2 program, putting them behind Honda, for example…
A huge amount of hydrogen is already required to turn crude oil into gasoline. Don’t act like drilling for oil is incredibly clean and efficient and hydrogen is not.
Aside from energy diversity, fuel cells have a number of other advantages: Reduced emissions in population centers, reduced noise pollution, and fast recharge — due to the laws of physics, it is prohibitive for vehicles to stop on the highway and recharge batteries in a short amount of time that can taken you hundreds of miles.
Whenever hydrogen is mentioned around here these gangs pop up to start bullying anyone who has an open mind about it. Reminds me of how the Atkins Diet cultists constantly evangelized that carbs were evil.
I did a little research on the Honda deal. Honda has a natural gas car that can be purchased right now with a home refueling station if you have natural gas in you home.
It is my understanding that the FCX will also use natural gas ? I called the manfacturing company for the home refueling station . They were not very polite but did tell me that the system cannot be bought, It
is only leased and has to be installed by them.I figured up the lease and expense of the natural gas and again we, the consumer get the short end of the stick. I just don’t believe the auto industry/oil companies are willing to let us off the hook untill they can controll the means for refueling.The next thing is where will big government get tax dollars for their roads if we don’t burn fuel controlled by them?There are too many big players in this situation to let the consumer get by without buying fuel fom them, no matter what kind it is.
Please don’t get me wrong, I want to be one of the first to take delivery on my new VOLT !!! Time will tell !!
Bob Lutz for President.
So you don’t think big oil will let you off the hook, but you think big electric will? If you think AEP or Exelon or a litany of others will do you any favors when we start utilizing their nighttime generation capacity, I’ve got a few of their nuclear power plants to sell you.
Wow, and I mean WOW!
Whether it comes out as a fuel cell vehicle or ICE in terms of range extension, this car makes a statement. In near terms, I would prefer an ICE version. Does anyone really think that GM won’t provide one if the Volt is half as successful as we think it will be?
In the long term, why not hydrogen? Most of the posting here concerning hydrogen think of it in terms of a centralized infrastructure with a huge delivery system, but I think that’s wrong. One poster (Mike @ #23) mentioned the Honda home energy station, which is on the right track (decentralized). With the current advances in PV technology, who wouldn’t pay $10K to secure their transportation fuel for the next decade or better? I sure would!
I plan on getting a home PV system in the next five years anyway. The extra cost for hydrogen production would be negligible.
Go GM!
#58
Please read ” There are too many big players in this situation to let the consumer get by without buying fuel from them, no matterwhat kind it is.” I believe in this case electric would be the fuel
The fuel cell aspects don’t really interest me me at all.
The aero refinements that were apparently gleaned from the Volt design team - those do interest me.
“· Active front grille, with grille louvers that open when the fuel cell stack requires cooling
· Full underbody aerodynamic cover
· Flush door handles that feature push-to-release operation
· Wind tunnel-shaped outside mirrors with integral turn signals
· Center high-mounted rear stop lamp incorporated into full-width, wraparound spoiler
· Signature vertical taillamps with subtle fin design
· Side glass mounted flush with pillars
· Wheels with clear-covered space between the spokes, creating a sleeker profile while maintaining Cadillac’s signature bold wheel design
· Low-drag roof rack”
[quote comment="25300"] OhmExcited # 55
Whenever hydrogen is mentioned around here these gangs pop up to start bullying anyone who has an open mind about it. Reminds me of how the Atkins Diet cultists constantly evangelized that carbs were evil.[/quote]
No one here is bullying anyone. Nor did I notice any gang members present. Most of us just think Fuel cells are really stupid for now. They are. According to http://www.h2stations.org/ there are a sparse number of filling stations on the entire planet. I say there are way many plugs and gas stations, thereby making the ICE more attractive than fuel cells. What we need now are batteries that at least triple the 40 mile range.
Planning for the future is good. I happen to think that Fuel Cells are too far into the future. Plugs, gasoline, maybe ethanol are here now. All come with a price on the environment. Perhaps when solar is perfected to around 95% capture of the Sun’s energy, then we will do very good things for the environment.
No bullying or gang members here. Just opinions.
20 miles…skip
fuel cell…skip
Ignore the Fuel Cell component and this vehicle is a great design and can see it going into production. GM just replace the Fuel Cell with an gas or diesel ICE and increase the battery to provide 40 mile range and you have a winner. Looking forward to seeing it at the Detroit Auto show next couple of weeks, really like the styling.
I don’t think the infrastructure will be a problem, as GM has dealerships that can become the infrastructure pretty quickly.
Need hydrogen? Stop in your local GM dealer. It’s in their control to make it happen.
I think it’s pretty obvious that GM would use the Volt battery pack in this car. There’s economy of scale, and they can share all the work they’ve done on the power electronics.
Therefore it is dead obvious that a large, heavy luxury SUV is going to get less range than a compact car that’s optimized for peak range.
That’s basically what all you guys are complaining about. It’s not like GM has a dial on the factory floor to set the electric range of a car, and they turned it to 20 just to piss you off. Jesus, how many gm-volt readers does it take to screw in a light bulb.
Diesel and Gas ICE options are the only logical way forward. PHEV’s are our solution for the next decade or two. Put a diesel in it and I’ll buy one.
A couple models like this and GM could be back in the game. The E-flex system sounds great. Want to see and drive a real one, not read about it.
Thanks for everyone’s comments above. Learned a lot from your input.
Replace the fuel cell with a diesel or gasoline range extender and they’d sell another one immediately.
What about those who have worried about the gas in their tank never getting used? Wouldn’t this be a good alternative (provided the all electric range was a little farther) for the rare occurence that they run out of charge? I also agree that installing charging stations at dealerships would be a good start.
For Mark #67-
Please do some research regarding hydrogen as a fuel source. If the desired outcome of implementing alternative fuels is something away from fossil fuels then Hydrogen is not the answer.
If GM dealerships were to become fuelling stations for H2 then consider this- the nearest one from where I live is 80 miles!
As far as the Provoq concept, the name says it all. It has provoqed thought and opinions among the Volt faithful. Apparently, GM listens to the consumer-one of the positive turn of events behind the creation of this very site. I think the Caddy is very nice looking, but I fell in love with the Volt also. Honestly, if they both have ICE’s and plug-in and both meet range requirements, I won’t care which. Both look very nice to me.
Concerning the H2 issue, I agree with the posters here. There isn’t much I can add to it, other than I hope that one day the infrastructure exists to make it viable, but until then…
And finally, big oilcompanies are like the Harkonnen in Dune. Once the Volt/Saturn/Opel/Provoq come online, does anyone honestly think the oil companies are just gonna pack up and leave?
Think about it…
Can GM really afford to waste so much R&D on cars that will never be made?
So what happens to a 10,000 psi hydrogen tank in the event of an accident? Seriously. I used to work with 1,000 psi acetylene tanks, and was taught to handle THEM very carefully.
What are you thinking? The public wants a small, safe, cheap electric like that EV-1 that you trashed. We are trying to get away from the expense of $3.+ gas and you offer us an overpriced Prius. If we could afford one of these we could afford to keep buying the gas. A conventional $16,000. Corolla gets 40mpg hwy. Take the price of what you’re offering and do the math. Even at $4.gal it makes no sense, aside from Yuppie appeal.
Jim G,
Gasoline is as explosive as hydrogen and it is stored in plastic tanks on many cars and while explosions and fires do occur, they are not the primary source of deaths on the highways. I don’t see this a big problem.
Why can’t GM just focus on a practical plug- in vehicle that real people can buy? This whole effort looks like a big waste of R&D money, money that could be better spent on a practical vehicle for the masses. I am having trouble taking the whole GM Volt concept seriously anymore. I would be much more impressed if this news had been that GM had plans for a large manufacturing run of Volts with an MSRP of less than $25,000, and available next year for sure. Maybe I should set my hopes on Toyota, again.
M McGlade
All of you H2 nay sayers had better get your eyes checked and do some research. The H2 Economy is coming and should be embraced, sooner than later. We need HFCV and HICEs to become Oil Independent and take the car out of the Climate Change debate. Here in California we have more H2 stations than E85 stations and by 2010 will have 100 H2 filling stations.There are currently at least three along my commute route. GM and the DOD have been testing FCVs since 2005 and will be producing 100 Equinox FCVs for trials for early adopters in ‘08.
GM hit a home run with the Provoq I would by one now!
I’m an engineer by trade and it’s obvious that GM is a little out of touch with the public. PLEASE QUIT TRYING TO DESIGN US A SPACE SHUTTLE. Take an Aveo. Remove the engine, transmission, gas tank, exhaust, etc. Put in an electric motor that will take it to 65 mph (that’s the speed limit you know), a lithium battery that will take it 40-50 miles and run a 110v extention cord out the front. You can sell them for $12,000. and make money. People will be waiting in line. I’ll take the first one. If you don’t someone in Asia will be doing it soon.
Lose the Hydrogen it’s a fools play that the government is sponsoring to postpone the move to electricity. Don’t help the government mislead the public and preserve the oil industry’s hold on us (petroleum is the future source of Hydrogen fuel and it’s dirty).
Go with 60 miles of electric power and a gasoline backup like the Volt. Both infrastructures are here today and it’s a very green solution, given that most Americans drive less than 40 mile per day.
[quote comment="25334"]I’m an engineer by trade and it’s obvious that GM is a little out of touch with the public. PLEASE QUIT TRYING TO DESIGN US A SPACE SHUTTLE. Take an Aveo. Remove the engine, transmission, gas tank, exhaust, etc. Put in an electric motor that will take it to 65 mph (that’s the speed limit you know), a lithium battery that will take it 40-50 miles and run a 110v extention cord out the front. You can sell them for $12,000. and make money. People will be waiting in line. I’ll take the first one. If you don’t someone in Asia will be doing it soon.[/quote]
Thats EXACTLY what I want! Well stated.
1) Gasoline is explosive but not as much as many people think. You do have to compress it 10x and ignite it with a spark in your pistons, after all. With the extreme pressures discussed for H2 tanks, they will become weak and crack over time, potentially causing violent decompressions, esp. if there’s an accident. That’s why all the H2 proposals I’ve seen include federally-mandated tank inspections at least every 8 years. I’d rather not have one of these in my back seat.
2) Re: the idea of adding more people and money to the Volt project: you need to read The Mythical Man Month. It’s about managing software development but I’m sure a similar principle applies. GM almost certainly has all the people and resources it needs to make the Volt in the shortest amount of time possible. There would be no place to add more people or money, so there’s no harm if the extra people and money are devoted to developing other projects like the Caddy.
I agree with most that an ICE version would be very welcome right now. Hydrogen later when the infrastructure is in place.
I would love to get a 4 door version of an E-flex with 30 to 40 mile all electric range. Maybe the Saturn version will be the one I’m after.
[quote comment="25336"][quote comment="25334"]I’m an engineer by trade and it’s obvious that GM is a little out of touch with the public. PLEASE QUIT TRYING TO DESIGN US A SPACE SHUTTLE. Take an Aveo. Remove the engine, transmission, gas tank, exhaust, etc. Put in an electric motor that will take it to 65 mph (that’s the speed limit you know), a lithium battery that will take it 40-50 miles and run a 110v extention cord out the front. You can sell them for $12,000. and make money. People will be waiting in line. I’ll take the first one. If you don’t someone in Asia will be doing it soon.[/quote]
Thats EXACTLY what I want! Well stated.[/quote]
Ditto–although a little faster than 65 mph for obvious safety AND fun reasons. But right on the mark.
Mike — #79
H2 is a really elegant solution to a lot of problems — if you ignore the external factors.
Unfortunately, it requires a lot of clean water (something that CA and the SW United States lacks), or it needs to be transported. Both of these factors rule out H2 as a practical fuel source.
To be oil-independat, all you need to do is get some Nano Solar for your roof, and an extension cord for your car.
Why make it any more complicated than that?
[quote comment="25334"]I’m an engineer by trade and it’s obvious that GM is a little out of touch with the public. PLEASE QUIT TRYING TO DESIGN US A SPACE SHUTTLE. Take an Aveo. Remove the engine, transmission, gas tank, exhaust, etc. Put in an electric motor that will take it to 65 mph (that’s the speed limit you know), a lithium battery that will take it 40-50 miles and run a 110v extention cord out the front. You can sell them for $12,000. and make money. People will be waiting in line. I’ll take the first one. If you don’t someone in Asia will be doing it soon.[/quote]
YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! X 100000
I don’t care if the car looks like a used bar of soap — I just want to stop using gas TODAY.
Another comment on Hydrogen.
If it’s Hydrogen you want then you must be willing to accept nuclear power, as gen 4 nuclear reactors (considered to be much safer and cleaner than current reactors) are really the only way you are going to make petroleum free Hydrogen. Gen 4 reactors use there high heat to crack water and to create hydrogen as a byproduct with very little extra cost. Now you just have to solve the distribution issue which is no small matter.
I say good job GM.
This is a CONCEPT car. It is not slated for production yet, and may never be. Concept cars are designed to show off a company’s design skills and forward-thinking engineering. That’s why there’s a fuel cell in there. The Volt could potentially have a fuel cell in it (in fact is has been openly suggested in the marketing of the car) yet GM is going with an ICE for the generator. I expect that if the Provoq were produced any time soon it would get similar treatment. Stop freaking out about hydrogen. GM is just getting its name out there as a cutting-edge green-thinking company (or trying to). I am excited that they are continuing to push the E-Flex architecture in a variety of forms.
As for the all-electric range: How far does YOUR AWD crossover go on electric power? That’s what I thought. We have to start somewhere.
[quote comment="25334"]I’m an engineer by trade and it’s obvious that GM is a little out of touch with the public. PLEASE QUIT TRYING TO DESIGN US A SPACE SHUTTLE. Take an Aveo. Remove the engine, transmission, gas tank, exhaust, etc. Put in an electric motor that will take it to 65 mph (that’s the speed limit you know), a lithium battery that will take it 40-50 miles and run a 110v extention cord out the front. You can sell them for $12,000. and make money. People will be waiting in line. I’ll take the first one. If you don’t someone in Asia will be doing it soon.[/quote]
I was mistaken when I said I’d take the first one. I’ll take the first ten. I asked the other engineers in my office and over half of them said they’d buy one.
You guys are right on the money. For $12,000 i will buy it today as a second car, and ween myself off gasoline. Imagine how many would be sold at this price. A disposable car. When the battery don’t take a charge, buy a new car.
#79
“Mike Says:
January 8th, 2008 at 2:37 pm Quote
All of you H2 nay sayers had better get your eyes checked and do some research. The H2 Economy is coming and should be embraced, sooner than later. We need HFCV and HICEs to become Oil Independent and take the car out of the Climate Change debate. Here in California we have more H2 stations than E85 stations and by 2010 will have 100 H2 filling stations.There are currently at least three along my commute route. GM and the DOD have been testing FCVs since 2005 and will be producing 100 Equinox FCVs for trials for early adopters in ‘08.
GM hit a home run with the Provoq I would by one now!”
I don’t understand how having these cars will make us fossil fuel independent. The energy in h2 has to come from somewhere.
Now the Green Giant. First GM crushed the EV-1 and gave us the Hummer. Then we get a peek at a Volt while in the back round they are working on a 600 Trillion HP Corvette while they are assuring us they have all these people working on getting the Volt To Market. A couple days ago I see the first article on the Green Giant, a 5700 pound Chevy Tahoe Hybrid that will be available this year, not 2010, this year. Two wheel drive a whooping 21 mpg city, 22 mpg hw. Four wheel drive 20/20. Green Car Journal named the Tahoe Hybrid Green Car of the Year. Base price $50,495, as tested $55,000 est. 332 HP, 0 to 60 9 seconds. If this is green we are in trouble.This article gave all the stats but I was unimpressed as was the writer. What got my attention was how GM wants one to think that they are giving the Volt their all while they just keep rolling out one blunder after another and now a Cadillac Provoq. Saw it on TV,s Power Lunch this morning from Las Vegas. The last sentence stated matters could only get more muddled if a Hybred Hummer comes rolling out. Critics call it greenwashing. Now for those of you who want to run out and buy GM stock a word to the wise. In the last few weeks it has droped from $36.00 a share to about $23.00 and Ford was $6.23, Chrysler has filled for bankruptcy, Toyota $106.00 a share. Is there a message here? This is from the people who make their money off of us. Glad to see like wise that so many can see the hydrogen problems and how far out it is and that is exactly why it is being pushed because we all have to just keep buying gas. I said in my first message on this that when the oil companies controll the fuel what ever it will be it will happen. Glad to see so many respond and glad Lyle keeps this going. Maybe just maybe our pressure will in some small way will make it happen.
[quote comment="25333"]…Here in California…by 2010 will have 100 H2 filling stations.There are currently at least three along my commute route![/quote]
That’s impressive. What’s even more impressive are the gas lines.
Okay, Concepts are good, but how do I benefit when their are no Hydrogen fuel stations around, genuise idea though, but I’ll wait til the volt comes out, thats the smart money, and when it does come out, whos to say that the battery technology wont improve, it should be much better by the time the Volt is manufactured to us… Keep your eyes on the prize.
Fuel Cells work just dandy until you have to stir the cryotanks.
Yeah, I cannot get all that excited about Fuel Cell development until…
1) An economical (and green) method to extract Hydrogen from water is developed and…
2) I can buy said hydrogen at my local gas station or have it delivered by the milkman at my door.
3) Find a milkman willing to deliver hydrogen.
Hi there, Pro-Usa at 30,
I’m pro-international cooperation, anti-GREED and anti-WASTE. Hence I’m pro-EV (haven’t used petrol/gasoline for 2 years now),and de-facto pro-Volt: I applaud anyone in the USA, Japan, Europe or wherever that supports those values and vice versa. Also I feel compelled to point out to readers not only that there are other players in this field, but that GM do not lead the way by any stretch of the imagination.
If I have understood you correctly then I think you are saying you wouldn’t buy a Cleanova because European gasoline is 3 times more expensive in Europe than in the USA which is illogical because a)being an EREV it runs mainly on electricity and b)if you could buy one in the USA you would be running it on cheap (by our standards dirt-cheap) petrol in the US! Is that what you meant, or have I misunderstood your reply?
To summarise then, my only point was that Dassault have already designed, tested and are about to start delivering an EREV-93 vehicle to customers while GM are still at the design stage for an EREV-40 which has huge question marks over a proposed arrival date before the end of 2010 - ie 3 years from now!
This is an excellent forum but is obviously inherently biased - it is after all about GM’s Volt. Like Mr Gore (a fine American in my books)I was simply presenting a truth about European/Canadian technology. It may be an inconvenient one to hear on this forum, but that doesn’t stop it being true
Cheers.
why would you be making this vehicle when i thought the Volt was the main vehicle you all wanted to see made not sure whats going on i think the volt should be at the top of the list to become production im waiting on the volt
LoL’s,
Now, while waiting on the Volt, I still have some questions, and normally don’t have time to check out every blog, so here it is, Is GM goiong to put solar panels on the Volt as well, and since GM is on this trend of Hydrogen, are they going to do the same for the Volt, and is it smart to go that route considering the current methods used to make the Hydrogen to put in any vehicle? I just hope we dont get any Dee-da-dee ideas at the last minute and reverse the thinking and ideology of the Volt concept that thus far will be GM’s saving grace… and an American solution in being a leader in the future for newer and better ways of transportation.
Is it worth mentioning that Hydrogen power seems to be a government / oil industry pet project? As I remember from ‘who killed the electric car’ it was part of the lever used to prise out that useful legislation in California. Presumably it is much easier to get funding if you put a fuel cell in the concept car.
In the long term if the technology is developed for a few cell and a petrol motor is an option let Bush buy the one they make with the fuel cell. It is us that will decide what sells in the end.
Wow, 100 comments in one day. Pretty impressive.
8715 on the waiting list. Also pretty impressive.
I wonder where we will all really be 3 years from today.
Haha, YES, me too! The only thing that surprises me is that an asian auto maker hasn’t done it yet.
[quote comment="25344"][quote comment="25334"]I’m an engineer by trade and it’s obvious that GM is a little out of touch with the public. PLEASE QUIT TRYING TO DESIGN US A SPACE SHUTTLE. Take an Aveo. Remove the engine, transmission, gas tank, exhaust, etc. Put in an electric motor that will take it to 65 mph (that’s the speed limit you know), a lithium battery that will take it 40-50 miles and run a 110v extention cord out the front. You can sell them for $12,000. and make money. People will be waiting in line. I’ll take the first one. If you don’t someone in Asia will be doing it soon.[/quote]
YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! X 100000
I don’t care if the car looks like a used bar of soap — I just want to stop using gas TODAY.[/quote]
[quote]
I’m an engineer by trade and it’s obvious that GM is a little out of touch with the public. PLEASE QUIT TRYING TO DESIGN US A SPACE SHUTTLE. Take an Aveo. Remove the engine, transmission, gas tank, exhaust, etc. Put in an electric motor that will take it to 65 mph (that’s the speed limit you know), a lithium battery that will take it 40-50 miles and run a 110v extention cord out the front. You can sell them for $12,000. and make money. People will be waiting in line. I’ll take the first one. If you don’t someone in Asia will be doing it soon.
YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! X 100000
I don’t care if the car looks like a used bar of soap — I just want to stop using gas TODAY.
[/quote]
Fuel cells? really? what a silly technology. An all electric Cadillac was what I was hoping to find when I heard about this car, alas… I wouldn’t buy one, even if I could afford it. Range extension is okay, so long as it’s modular and able to be replaced by improved all electric upgrades. The V2G possibilities are fantastic.
I feel there is such bad feeling towards GM…. Everyone complains about and blames GM for ‘destroying the EV1′, everyone needs to remember why the EV1 was even made…
What other company had an electric car?
i dont see anyone complaining about toyota and the RevEV that they do not make anymore. Doesn’t toyota make just as big SUVs? i dont see them with full size SUV hybrids…
Customers drive change. dont take this the wrong way, but 2672 diehard customers that are willing to pay 20K more for a vehicle that is “Green” wont do it.
Our government gives HUGE tax write offs to oil companies that do not need it, while GM spends their own money developing technologies of the future, but of course needs help from the gov to actually take off. If you want change today, then demand it.
Also, remember it takes 60 months (5 years) from concept to production.
The Volt will get made and GM is putting their ALL in to it. I truly believe this is GMs more important vehicle of all time. This is the Lord of the Rings for GM.
Toyota’s hybrids aren’t going to do it, yes they save some gas, but when you think about it, so does the new full size tahoe hybrid…
FYI:
the Toyota Land cruiser gets 13/18, $63K
the Toyota sequoia gets 13/18
The Lexus LX 570 gets 12/18, $73K
[quote comment="25334"]I’m an engineer by trade and it’s obvious that GM is a little out of touch with the public. PLEASE QUIT TRYING TO DESIGN US A SPACE SHUTTLE. Take an Aveo. Remove the engine, transmission, gas tank, exhaust, etc. Put in an electric motor that will take it to 65 mph (that’s the speed limit you know), a lithium battery that will take it 40-50 miles and run a 110v extention cord out the front. You can sell them for $12,000. and make money. People will be waiting in line. I’ll take the first one. If you don’t someone in Asia will be doing it soon.[/quote]
you realize the batteries do not exist for this and they would cost $12K alone…
Cool looking car… I was looking at the photo gallery and noticed the interior picture is a very traditionaly shift lever. What is this for? Does a vehicle like this really need this? With so many systems ‘by wire’ it would seem a shifter is obsolete.
“you realize the batteries do not exist for this and they would cost $12K alone…”
It seems that there is an unlimited patience for advances in h2 and fuel cell tech, but none for battery tech.
H2 requires a daunting amount of research yet, but batteries merely refinement, improvement and economy of scale.
Bob Cuomo Says:
“noticed the interior picture is a very traditionaly shift lever. What is this for? Does a vehicle like this really need this? With so many systems ‘by wire’ it would seem a shifter is obsolete.”
How about “Park” “Drive” “Neutral” “Reverse”
Yeah, I would like a traditional shifter for the Volt. There would be a few less positions - no D1, D2, or D3 - not sure about Neutral. But even for Drive, Reverse, and Park, a shift lever on the center console would be my choice.
As for the shifter on the Provoq, why do they have all that leather around the bottom? It does look like a manual transmission shifter. Why would an electric drive shifter need to move sideways? Maybe since it’s a Cadillac, the more leather the better? Seems silly to me.
RE:
I’m an engineer by trade and it’s obvious that GM is a little out of touch with the public. PLEASE QUIT TRYING TO DESIGN US A SPACE SHUTTLE. Take an Aveo. Remove the engine, transmission, gas tank, exhaust, etc. Put in an electric motor that will take it to 65 mph (that’s the speed limit you know), a lithium battery that will take it 40-50 miles and run a 110v extention cord out the front. You can sell them for $12,000. and make money. People will be waiting in line. I’ll take the first one. If you don’t someone in Asia will be doing it soon.
Why an Aveo… Put it all in a Malibu MAXX.. or use the MAXX chasis as they are using it on a number of vehicles now, including the saturn line. Still would seat 5, have good cargo space. Lots of roof for the solar panels…and yes .. GM can up the 40 miles to 80 without any real changes( they already have the tecnology but picked 40 as a starting number ).. I would like to see 80 Miles on a charge as I travel about 100 -110 miles per day. (with a top speed of say 95 - 100 MPH….sometimes my supper might get cold…grin)
Haha, I guess 80-90% of visitors here don’t know what the word “concept” means. Give the “fuel cells suck” talk a rest. It’s not like GM is saying they expect to sell 50,000 fuel cells in 2011. If anyone would read between the lines, this is a very mild concept. I would expect to see this out one to two years after the Volt (with an ICE of course).
[quote comment="25413"]Haha, I guess 80-90% of visitors here don’t know what the word “concept” means.[/quote]
The primary purpose of a concept car is to get a reaction from the public. What better place to react than on a public forum like this?
h2 is for the oil companies, they have large quantities of h2 and they want you and I to pay for it. I would love a biodiesel powered cuv eflex Vue or Outlook. I too would like to see this b.s. of h2 “fool” cell come to an end.
[quote comment="25417"][quote comment="25413"]Haha, I guess 80-90% of visitors here don’t know what the word “concept” means.[/quote]
The primary purpose of a concept car is to get a reaction from the public. What better place to react than on a public forum like this?[/quote]
Agree!! And its sad we’re getting people negative feedback with this…
I wonder why GM didnt come out with gas alternatives earlier.
I bet when gas was $.80 / gal and GM had a concept of a alternative fuel vehicle the public reacted negatively… now i know why it has taken so long.
Gee…It looks like styling-wise GM is trying to catch up to a trend that the Dodge Magnum started!
As for the technology, I applaud the effort. But, when will the fuel providers catch up…if ever?
Has anyone thought of creating an engine that would provide the power to extract hydrogen from water, so that it could have it’s own fuel source: the water tap? I know it’s far-fetched, but so is setting up a national network of hydrogen refueling stations.
Just keep trying you dreamers!
Alternative fuels can be great. H2 isn’t one of them now. Maybe in 2 decades.
SO California is building an H2 highway. Big deal. What about the rest of the country and planet? No one is saying the planning for the future is bad. But where can we all buy hydrogen. You H2 lovers just don’t understand. Plug-ins can be used now by just about anyone. Who the heck can use H2 on a permanent basis?
Forget H2, and perfect battery technology.
GM should come to my house and see what I built… On the other hand… nevermind, I remember what happened to Stan Meyer.
Gene, I never heard of Stan Meyer before.
If this is all true, then H2 could work for everyone. Too bad it doesn’t seem to exist anymore.
[quote comment="25425"]Has anyone thought of creating an engine that would provide the power to extract hydrogen from water, so that it could have it’s own fuel source: the water tap? I know it’s far-fetched, but so is setting up a national network of hydrogen refueling stations.[/quote]
You may have meant this as a joke, but in case others take this seriously…
Remember that hydrogen is NOT a fuel. It is a energy carrier. In other words, you need some other source of energy to make hydrogen. In the case of hydrogen from water, you need a lot of electricity and a lot of clean water. In fact, you need about 3 times more electricity to drive 40 miles on hydrogen than to drive 40 miles from batteries charged by the grid. See here for details:
http://www.physorg.com/news85074285.html
The big oil companies are pushing fuel cells. Their lobbying efforts have caused all the government funding. Big oil knows fuel cells are a dead end. That’s why they call them “Fool Sells”. They are meant to deceive us.
Great 20 miles on one charge. That’s just far enough to get me to the gas station to fill up. Oh wait, where the heck do I get hydrogen?!
Thanks GM.
CadillacCat
OMG!!! Now we have dropped to the level of talking about Stan Meyer????
Perpetual motion does not work under the physical laws of this universe………..
Fuel cells may not work either, but as long as GM has “go fever” for the Volt, I don’t care if they play around with them.
Who knows? Maybe some entirely new form of energy storage may be developed out of it. Don’t forget what they called it in Demolition Man - Capacitance Gel!!!
Great Looking Caddy.. great concept.
GM has all the best ideas.. the only thing we have to get them is a level playing field.
I’m ready now for H2… hydrogen is the future. I heard that since we have stopped using hydrogenated oils .. we have a oversupply of hydrogen. Good time to start the infrastructure. I like the volt .. would like it better with this type of body.
Hope Chevy is thinking of a more practical version of the Volt. I’ll be ready for a new car in 2012.
Considering how far away the production volt is, I can’t get excited about a fuel cell Cadillac. There’s still the cost of the fuel cell to overcome and the chicken or the egg style hydrogen availability issue.
I forgot to add, I like the look and the package, I just want mine in Gas-E85, or BioDiesel. It is the right size what I am looking for, I am glade they are looking at doing a CUV. I hope this will be a shared body/platform with Chevy, Saturn, or other Gm Brand my guess is it will be, this does look a lot more production ready then the first volt. I would love to see a road ready volt at the NAIAS.
1. Park one out front of the NYMEX
with a sign, “Goes on Sale in September”,
that will put an end to $100/bl oil.
2. If you could get the oil companies to
build a 100 square mile solar array
in the desert we could make all the
hydrogen we need.
3. I would prefer a hydrogen refueling
station in my garage to the 20 sticks
on tnt in the gas tanks of two cars.
4. Go Hydrogen - it doesn’t fund nuts!
5. Go GM America needs this.
Love the idea of a luxury E-Flex car, but this one misses the mark on one crucial point: its alternative fuel source.
GM’s fascination with hydrogen is an enigma to me. The most economically feasible way of producing hydrogen for the foreseeable future is to reform natural gas. It’s well established that it takes three times the natural gas to produce enough hydrogen to travel an equivalent number of miles. Why not simply use natural gas in the first place?
If unsophisticated consumers know this, how can GM’s engineers have missed it? GM is setting itself up for a huge embarrassment with hydrogen. The economic proposition of consuming 3x the energy to go the same number of miles is destined to fail. Why start down a path that is so clearly an economic and environmental dead end at the outset?
For crissake, build get the Volt out there and quit dividing efforts and resources.
You guys ever heard of something called badge engineering & the drawbacks thereof? I’m halfway expecting something on the Buick, Saturn, GM, Hummer and Pontiac versions.
Please GM, this is your absolute last chance - don’t screw this up.
[quote comment="25461"]2. If you could get the oil companies to build a 100 square mile solar array in the desert we could make all the hydrogen we need.[/quote]
If you could get them to build a solar array like that, you would have 3 TIMES the electricity needed for everyone to drive electric vehicles like the Volt.
Why convert that electricity to hydrogen and lose 2/3 of it in the process?
And by the way, where does all the clean water to make the hydrogen come from? Clean water is already a scarce resource, especially in the desert.
What’s wrong with using the electricity directly? It’s 3 times more efficient. The distribution infrastructure is already here. Batteries are much cheaper than fuel cells. What’s not to like?
Why are people so enamored with fuel cells?
I have no problem with fuel cell research, or any research for that matter. Maybe they will invent something like Capacitance Gel. But why build fuel cell concept cars when the current technology sucks? Why start gearing up for production models like the Honda FCX? It’s not the research, but the development of fuel cell vehicles that really upsets me. That development effort would be far better spent on other gas/electric E-REVs like the Volt.
I started reading posts on this site in March or April of 2007 and began adding comments in August. There is a core group of posters that has been growing. I kind of feel like I know a lot of you. We have a good time debating the issues and expressing our opinions. For the most part everyone is cordial.
Thank you GM and Bob Lutz for the Volt concept and subsequent efforts. I am truly looking forward to driving one. Thank you Rick Wagner for hiring Bob and your support.
Finally …I would like to thank Lyle for creating the site and keeping it up to date.
this car looks great and so does the volt but when are you going to tell us what it going to cost ?????????? will i have to sell the farm to buy one !!!!!!.
[quote comment="25464"]
GM’s fascination with hydrogen is an enigma to me. The most economically feasible way of producing hydrogen for the foreseeable future is to reform natural gas. It’s well established that it takes three times the natural gas to produce enough hydrogen to travel an equivalent number of miles. Why not simply use natural gas in the first place?
[/quote]
To Dave G # 128,
Dear Dave,
Come live in Belgium (or other countries in Western Europe), Opel (GM) sells here the Zafira GNG and the Combo tour CHG, they even install for free (to the first 25 buyers) the compressor at their private home.
see (in french) : http://www.opel.be/contact/magazine/page.asp?page=125&news=Milieumag
[quote comment="25464"]
GM’s fascination with hydrogen is an enigma to me. The most economically feasible way of producing hydrogen for the foreseeable future is to reform natural gas. It’s well established that it takes three times the natural gas to produce enough hydrogen to travel an equivalent number of miles. Why not simply use natural gas in the first place?
[/quote]
To Dave G # 128,
Dear Dave,
Come live in Belgium (or other countries in Western Europe), Opel (GM) sells here the Zafira CNG and the Combo tour CNG, they even install for free (to the first 25 buyers) the compressor at their private home.
see (in french) : http://www.opel.be/contact/